How to Learn Code, Start a Web Company, $15k+ per month within 9 months

[sector7]

View attachment 13477


This is what pricing a larger job looks like. You want to give a clear breakdown of where your costs are coming from.

For a job less than 4k it might just be a straight price quote but as you go higher you want to provide more detail. This gives the client an idea of what your work involves (and why its priced as such) and what to expect when its finished.

I use the Freshbooks software for this is which quite good and allows clients to pay online. It does lose a few percent on the Stripe payments though before it reaches your bank account.

First, I want to start by thanking you for taking your time to provide so much information. There's something for everyone to learn in this topic, no matter what business they run.

Please do not take what I am about to say the wrong way. It is only my own personal opinion and my opinions are rarely "politically correct" but they are not meant to insult anyone.

I run a web / app development and design company in the U.S. My goal is not only to offer value to my customers but also to give them a great deal. The amount you charge for a very simple website ($12k in your example above) is how much I charge for a complex Android + iOS app. How do you justify charging $4800 for some basic "programming" in CSS and HTML (which are not programming languages actually and can be learned in a couple of weeks just like you said)? How can you charge $1200 for graphic elements and a logo? I am very curious to see one of these websites you have done.

I think the approach of charging based on the value you bring to a company is wrong and leads to inflation. What if every single business charged by that model? Can you imagine what would happen to prices?

Imagine going to the dental hygienist to get your teeth whitened before an interview for a modeling job. The teeth whitening helps you land that job and you end up making $100k a year. Let's just assume that if you had yellow teeth, you would not have gotten the modeling job. Would you be willing to pay $20k (20% of the yearly salary of your new job) to get your teeth whitened?

Imagine you have problems with your prostate so you start eating pumpkin seeds (good for your prostate) which helps you cure your problem within a couple of months. Would you be willing to then pay thousands of dollars for those pumpkin seeds that potentially saved your life even though you can buy them from other places for $5 a pound or find cheaper alternatives that result in the same outcome?

Imagine you need to fly to China and sign a $100k contract. Would you be willing to pay $20 000 for the plane ticket to your destination if it meant getting to contract?

The same applies to people who think that minimum wage should be increased. What do you think will happen to prices overall if a McDonalds employee starts making $15 an hour? Everything else will become more expensive as well, so the minimum wage increase is mostly an illusion.

Came from the dentist the other day and was charged $1400 for two hours of work. When that dentist had to pay $20k for his new website, he's going to charge $700 an hour to compensate for that. When he knows that a Burger King worker who never finished high school makes $15 an hour, he'll bump his prices accordingly. This is happening everywhere around us, but seems like few are aware of it.

Just because your website brings 10 new clients for that particular business, does not mean you need to charge him extra for that. Many other web design companies create the same websites like you do and bring the same amount of clients + "value" to your customer, but charge a fraction of the cost. You could say that they are stupid or you could say that they are fair. Depends on how you view it.

I understand that most of us on this forum consider ourselves smarter than the "stupid and naive slowlaners", but we should never go down to the level of taking advantage of people and we should think thoroughly about this since sometimes we are not aware of what we're doing. Better to be an honest slowlaner than a crooked fastlaner. One thing I notice repeatedly on this forum is that many members do not grasp the concept that a world without slowlaners would be hell on Earth. We should wake up every single morning and thank God (or whatever you believe in) for slowlaners because without them, the fastlane model would not work. Without people willing to work their whole lives and do repeated tasks for very little money, without people who don't dream of retiring at 30 and then just enjoying life, without people who devote their whole lives to improving the lives of others and not expecting monetary rewards, without all the scientists, authors, mathematicians, inventors, engineers who make incredible discoveries and don't even patent their work or ask for any sort of recognition, this world would not function. These are the true heroes.

These are the people who's value goes unnoticed. Not some "smartass" who builds a new social media app and becomes a millionaire by 20. Not someone who takes advantage of people's ignorance. Not some salesman who bothers hundreds of people each day to sell them something they don't want and lands a couple of clients that don't know any better (not referring to you, but I'm sure you're aware that most salesman do this - I could go on a tangent about how impolite, rude, obnoxious and annoying it is to disturb hundreds of people to sell your service to them, but I'm not going to).

I am not here to argue with anyone, but am simply presenting a different perspective. Charging $12k for such a basic website means taking advantage in my book, no matter what "value" you bring to the client. Would be fun to compare our work in private @Fox and see if the $10k difference in price truly reflects on the value each of us brings to our customers. Sure, one could argue that I am undercharging my clients, but I would not be able to sleep at night if I charged them that amount for a simple WordPress website and some content, which any high school student can learn to do after a few months of practice.

This is why I think a SAAS business model is the best for a web based fastlane business. This way, you are not charging your clients much, but it's the volume that makes you money. I'd recommend the web development and design business as a means to learn new things, put money aside and focus on a fastlane business on the side. The development / design business is a job. The only way you can make it not be a job is to charge ridiculous amounts of money and make others do the work for you for very little money.

Let us not take advantage of people's ignorance. There is a right price for everything and an inflated price. Both add the same amount of value, but are both fair? That's for each of us to decide.

If you have something rude to say to me, I'd appreciate it if you could do it through a private message. I do not wish to turn this great topic into a mess.

 

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[Denim Chicken]

First, I want to start by thanking you for taking your time to provide so much information. There's something for everyone to learn in this topic, no matter what business they run.

Please do not take what I am about to say the wrong way. It is only my own personal opinion and my opinions are rarely "politically correct" but they are not meant to insult anyone.

I run a web / app development and design company in the U.S. My goal is not only to offer value to my customers but also to give them a great deal. The amount you charge for a very simple website is how much I charge for a complex Android + iOS app. How do you justify charging $4800 for some basic "programming" in CSS and HTML (which are not programming languages actually and can be learned in a couple of weeks just like you said)? How can you charge $1200 for graphic elements and a logo? I am very curious to see one of these websites you have done.

I think the approach of charging based on the value you bring to a company is wrong and leads to inflation. What if every single business charged by that model? Can you imagine what would happen to prices?

Imagine going to the dental hygienist to get your teeth whitened before an interview for a modeling job. The teeth whitening helps you land that job and you end up making $100k a year. Let's just assume that if you had yellow teeth, you would not have gotten the modeling job. Would you be willing to pay $20k (20% of the yearly salary of your new job) to get your teeth whitened?

Imagine you have problems with your prostate so you start eating pumpkin seeds (good for your prostate) which helps you cure your problem within a couple of months. Would you be willing to then pay thousands of dollars for those pumpkin seeds that potentially saved your life even though you can buy them from other places for $5 a pound or find cheaper alternatives that result in the same outcome?

Imagine you need to fly to China and sign a $100k contract. Would you be willing to pay $20 000 for the plane ticket to your destination if it meant getting to contract?

The same applies to people who think that minimum wage should be increased. What do you think will happen to prices overall if a McDonalds employee starts making $15 an hour? Everything else will become more expensive as well, so the minimum wage increase is mostly an illusion.

Came from the dentist the other day and was charged $1400 for two hours of work. When that dentist had to pay $20k for his new website, he's going to charge $700 an hour to compensate for that. When he knows that a Burger King worker who never finished high school makes $15 an hour, he'll bump his prices accordingly. This is happening everywhere around us, but seems like few are aware of it.

Just because your website brings 10 new clients for that particular business, does not mean you need to charge him extra for that. Many other web design companies create the same websites like you do and bring the same amount of clients + "value" to your customer, but charge a fraction of the cost. You could say that they are stupid or you could say that they are fair. Depends on how you view it.

I understand that most of us on this forum consider ourselves smarter than the "stupid and naive slowlaners", but we should never go down to the level of taking advantage of people and we should think thoroughly about this since sometimes we are not aware of what we're doing. Better to be an honest slowlaner than a crooked fastlaner. One thing I notice repeatedly on this forum is that many members do not grasp the concept that a world without slowlaners would be hell on Earth. We should wake up every single morning and thank God (or whatever you believe in) for slowlaners because without them, the fastlane model would not work. Without people willing to work their whole lives and do repeated tasks for very little money, without people who don't dream of retiring at 30 and then just enjoying life, without people who devote their whole lives to improving the lives of others and not expecting monetary rewards, without all the scientists, authors, mathematicians, inventors, engineers who make incredible discoveries and don't even patent their work or ask for any sort of recognition, this world would not function. These are the true heroes.

These are the people who's value goes unnoticed. Not some "smartass" who builds a new social media app and becomes a millionaire by 20. Not someone who takes advantage of people's ignorance. Not some salesman who bothers hundreds of people each day to sell them something they don't want and lands a couple of clients that don't know any better (not referring to you, but I'm sure you're aware that most salesman do this - I could go on a tangent about how impolite, rude, obnoxious and annoying it is to disturb hundreds of people to sell your service to them, but I'm not going to).

I am not here to argue with anyone, but am simply presenting a different perspective. Charging $12k for such a basic website means taking advantage in my book, no matter what "value" you bring to the client. Would be fun to compare our work in private @Fox and see if the $10k difference in price truly reflects on the value each of us brings to our customers. Sure, one could argue that I am undercharging my clients, but I would not be able to sleep at night if I charged them that amount for a simple WordPress website and some content, which any high school student can learn to do after a few months of practice.

This is why I think a SAAS business model is the best for a web based fastlane business. This way, you are not charging your clients much, but it's the volume that makes you money. I'd recommend the web development and design business as a means to learn new things, put money aside and focus on a fastlane business on the side. The development / design business is a job. The only way you can make it not be a job is to charge ridiculous amounts of money and make others do the work for you for very little money.

Let us not take advantage of people's ignorance. There is a right price for everything and an inflated price. Both add the same amount of value, but are both fair? That's for each of us to decide.

If you have something rude to say to me, I'd appreciate it if you could do it through a private message. I do not wish to turn this great topic into a mess.

The fact that you view charging a premium is taking advantage is very naive. You don't put in a line item for 'Profit 20%" in your invoices? If an agency like Blind Agency gets a job, they have overhead, staff, equipment and their lowest bottom line is $20k for a logo. If you're freelance, your bottom line is like $100. And yet if you can land a high paying account, that's your profit.

Not everyone has the skills and ability to charge on value. And despite what you said, anything that's not a commodity is charged on value.

Do you think a logo design for Coca Cola should be $1000 and the same as a no-name company? No. What if it takes the designer the exact same time or less to design both logos? Absolutely not. Why? There are many reasons but why do you think a company like Coca Cola has a budget of say $100k for a logo? Because the risk, value and worth is dependent on their objectives.

If coca cola changes their logo, they have MILLIONS of products that have to follow that change. The risk and potential losses due to an improper logo is huge. Look at the Uber logo change fiasco. So they want the best guys who know the market and business. And those guys and agencies charge $50-100k. They also have professional sales guy that establish relationship and understand C-level penetration. That is what the market has dictated. The best guys usually charge the highest prices because they have a system established that works, and can handle the risk involved in a failure. Also, there are always going to be a variety of prices people and companies are willing to pay. Think like a sales person and trying to land that account instead of me-centered approach on what should I charge that's okay with me despite who my clients are.

If Fox's client has a shitty website, it leads to thousands or dare I say millions in losses in contracts they fudge up or don't land. If you can get me a $1mil contract, I'm willing to pay $5k for a website and even more, and if you're specialized in that department I dont care if some guy knows the latest typography and graphic design principles.

If you charge $5k for a web app, you a) may be charging too little b) your work is inline with that price. Programming unfortunately is a commodity, it just is. Because it's all function and product based. You can't justify charging 50k for an app because you can get that same app for $5k from agencies such as yourself.

But Design is not a commodity. True design and anything artistic is never a commodity, in fact it is quite the opposite. Usually artistic talent has the other problem, scale. So they make money with magnitude. There is only 1 Pablo Picasso and if you want that, you pay his rates. And the same goes for web design. You want David Airy's logo package, sorry but no one else is doing that but him. His work is tied to his labor and creativitity. So he can charge $50k

There in lies why design agencies are able to charge more than strictly programming. Programming is not unique in any sense. Good design is.

And what Fox offers is design to make more money. Programming doesn't offer that.

And at the end of the day, if you're good at sales and find the right target market, doesn't matter what you offer.

 

[sector7]

The fact that you view charging a premium is taking advantage is very naive. You don't put in a line item for 'Profit 20%" in your invoices? If an agency like Blind Agency gets a job, they have overhead, staff, equipment and their lowest bottom line is $20k for a logo. If you're freelance, your bottom line is like $100. And yet if you can land a high paying account, that's your profit.

Not everyone has the skills and ability to charge on value. And despite what you said, anything that's not a commodity is charged on value.

Do you think a logo design for Coca Cola should be $1000 and the same as a no-name company? No. What if it takes the designer the exact same time or less to design both logos? Absolutely not. Why? There are many reasons but why do you think a company like Coca Cola has a budget of say $100k for a logo? Because the risk, value and worth is dependent on their objectives.

If coca cola changes their logo, they have MILLIONS of products that have to follow that change. The risk and potential losses due to an improper logo is huge. Look at the Uber logo change fiasco. So they want the best guys who know the market and business. And those guys and agencies charge $50-100k. They also have professional sales guy that establish relationship and understand C-level penetration. That is what the market has dictated. The best guys usually charge the highest prices because they have a system established that works, and can handle the risk involved in a failure. Also, there are always going to be a variety of prices people and companies are willing to pay. Think like a sales person and trying to land that account instead of me-centered approach on what should I charge that's okay with me despite who my clients are.

If Fox's client has a shitty website, it leads to thousands or dare I say millions in losses in contracts they fudge up or don't land. If you can get me a $1mil contract, I'm willing to pay $5k for a website and even more, and if you're specialized in that department I dont care if some guy knows the latest typography and graphic design principles.

If you charge $5k for a web app, you a) may be charging too little b) your work is inline with that price. Programming unfortunately is a commodity, it just is. Because it's all function and product based. You can't justify charging 50k for an app because you can get that same app for $5k from agencies such as yourself.

But Design is not a commodity. True design and anything artistic is never a commodity, in fact it is quite the opposite. Usually artistic talent has the other problem, scale. So they make money with magnitude. There is only 1 Pablo Picasso and if you want that, you pay his rates. And the same goes for web design. You want David Airy's logo package, sorry but no one else is doing that but him. His work is tied to his labor and creativitity. So he can charge $50k

There in lies why design agencies are able to charge more than strictly programming. Programming is not unique in any sense. Good design is.

And what Fox offers is design to make more money. Programming doesn't offer that.

And at the end of the day, if you're good at sales and find the right target market, doesn't matter what you offer.

I don't think Fox is a designer first of all. Did he say anywhere that he has design skills? Even if he did, design is still a commodity, just like programming is (or you can argue the other way around and say that programming is not a commodity. There is a huge difference between a greatprogrammer and a decent one, even if the final product looks the same and seems to function the same).

Also, we are not talking about multi-million or billion dollar companies here who can throw away $50k for a logo design and not care. Those are the outliers. The companies who do that, are the ones who are playing with someone else's money usually (aka the money of a filthy rich boss who just doesn't care anymore as long as he sees profit).

I respect your point and agree with some of the things you said, but I think you might have missed my point completely.

 

[Denim Chicken]

I don't think Fox is a designer first of all. Did he say anywhere that he has design skills? Even if he did, design is still a commodity, just like programming is.

Also, we are not talking about multi-million or billion dollar companies here who can throw away $50k for a logo design and not care. The companies who do that, are the ones who are playing with someone else's money usually (aka the money of a filthy rich boss who just doesn't care anymore as long as he sees profit).

I respect your point and agree with some of the things you said, but I think you might have missed my point completely.

The fact is, you should charge based on what your customers are willing to pay. That is how it works in any business, whether it's web or retail. By your logic the barber that charges me $500 for a hair cut is cheating me ethically because his overhead may be the same as a normal one. As if too much profit is bad.

Prices are not set by fox or anyone else. It's set by economics and the market. Rather than asking yourself how come fox charges so much, why not ask why the hell are so many people paying his price?

Sorry but where I come from paying thousands for a simple website for an industrial company is standard. Anyone else charging pennies is doing themselves a disservice. Or probably the leading reason... They don't understand b2b sales.

The reason why the price is at the floor for many artists is because they get education on refining their skills but no business or sales education usually. They taught that price scales inline with their skill which couldn't be further from the truth.

 

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[sector7]

The fact is, you should charge based on what your customers are willing to pay. That is how it works in any business, whether it's web or retail. By your logic the barber that charges me $500 for a hair cut is cheating me ethically because his overhead may be the same as a normal one. As if too much profit is bad.

Prices are not set by fox or anyone else. It's set by economics and the market. Rather than asking yourself how come fox charges so much, why not ask why the hell are so many people paying his price?

Sorry but where I come from paying thousands for a simple website for an industrial company is standard. Anyone else charging pennies is doing themselves a disservice. Or probably the leading reason... The don't understand b2b sales.

Let us not make assumptions like that. We are not talking about charging pennies. A $12k WordPress website might not seem like much to someone who doesn't understand how easy it is to build, but to someone with experience, it sounds ridiculous.

You should charge based on what your customers are willing to pay?! So if you find an idiot willing to pay $100k for an ounce of gold, you should do it? Darn, I thought fastlaners had more integrity than that.

You seem to mention overhead costs a lot, but this does not seem to be the case here. Fox clearly said what his overhead costs are.

You could say that I don't understand b2b sales (even though this is what I do for a living), or we can go the other way and say that many people do not understand inflation and how fast money loses its value. You can see the consequences of this throughout history. There are plenty of examples.

Also, knowing HTML and CSS is not considered being an artist. It is a skill, not a talent. It is something that anyone can learn, as opposed to being an artist and the other examples you mention. In fact, Fox himself said that anyone can do what he does.

 

[Denim Chicken]

Let us not make assumptions like that. We are not talking about charging pennies. A $12k WordPress website might not seem like much to someone who doesn't understand how easy it is to build, but to someone with experience, it sounds ridiculous.

You seem to mention overhead costs a lot, but this does not seem to be the case here. Fox clearly said what his overhead costs are.

You could say that I don't understand b2b sales (even though this is what I do for a living), or we can go the other way and say that many people do not understand inflation and how fast money loses its value. You can see the consequences of this throughout history. There are plenty of examples.

So let me get this straight. Is there an industry standard or rule book on how much that wordpress site should cost?
It sounds ridiculous to you because you're looking at everything based on time and how long it takes you.

Do you also think that if my lawyer sees me for 5 minutes, he should charge me $30? There are some lawyers who do that and there are some lawyers who don't. And the ones that don't probably don't do so because they have clients that are willing to pay more than their "hourly" rate.

Regardless of what you think or what I think, there are tons of people who are willing to pay $12k for a wordpress site and if you don't try to land those clients, others will.

Like I said, the fundamental problem here is your internal perception of how much things should cost for some reason, and that will always vary depending on the person. An Indian person who works for pennies will argue you are charging to much.

The answer isn't coming from me, it comes from the market.

If no one pays for your $12k website even though it costs you $20k to make, it's worth nothing!

 

[sector7]

There are people willing to pay $100k for a foot massage. There are people who pay millions of dollars for a customized license plate. What someone is willing to pay has nothing to do with the value of that product or service.

A lawyer has to go to school for 8 years in the U.S. (I think) and his expertise and knowledge is not something you can easily find or do on your own. You seem to use many examples that have nothing to do with the argument.

What Fox and many people in this thread are starting to do, is something that can be learned within a couple of months by anyone.

 

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[Denim Chicken]

There are people willing to pay $100k for a foot massage. There are people who pay millions of dollars for a customized license plate. What someone is willing to pay has nothing to do with the value of that product or service.

A lawyer has to go to school for 8 years in the U.S. (I think) and his expertise and knowledge is not something you can easily find or do on your own. You seem to use many examples that have nothing to do with the argument.

What Fox and many people in this thread are starting to do, is something that can be learned without a couple of months by anyone.

No one is willing to pay $100k for a foot massage. A customized license plate is $100 to the state annually, not millions of dollars.

The highest priced foot massage is probably $300/hr. But if there was an actual market to enter where people pay $100k for a massage, you best believe I'm going to foot massage school and going to land those clients.

Well, there are lawyers that charge like that. Because their work is commoditized. And there are smart lawyers who don't.


Why does it matter to you what Fox or anyone does and how long it should take someone to get started? It's almost like you have a problem with the lower barrier to entry and somehow it'll hurt your business. but let me tell you from someone who performed as a top producer in b2b inside sales for a well known mid market company, sales it not easy.

I can give you a script and tell you exactly what to say and people still wash out.

There's a rule in the sales world, top 10-20% will kill it, bottom 20% will wash out and the rest will make barely just enough to get by. Sales is a grind and a hustle and if your skills and prospecting doesn't get you in the beginning, the grind and constantly hunting will.

 

[Fox]

Ha *took five minutes to go get lunch*

I really appreciate the time you took to write that message @sector7 (also sent invite to Skype).

I don't have time to write a full response right now but you make a lot of good points. I can assure you though that I am not slapping together a theme in two days and charging huge money. A LOT of effort and time goes into the websites I make from design, copy, images, layout etc. My clients are always 110% happy and my feedback and testimonials are insanely positive.

I don't think web design is Fastlane and I often think I undercharge for what I do and the results I get. I will write a full respond soon but I welcome the difference in thinking and this type of discussion will add a lot to this thread.

Again this thread isn't about quick schemes to get rich. Its hard work, it takes time but if done right you can add a lot of value and you can charge good money for that value add.

Ill write back soon in full detail but I am by no means offended.

 

[sector7]

No one is willing to pay $100k for a foot massage. A customized license plate is $100 to the state annually, not millions of dollars.

The highest priced foot massage is probably $300/hr. But if there was an actual market to enter where people pay $100k for a massage, you best believe I'm going to foot massage school and going to land those clients

http://fortune.com/2016/11/01/car-license-plate-dubai-auction-rolls-royce/

By that logic, the license plate is really worth that much since there are people willing to pay for it.

 

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[Denim Chicken]

http://fortune.com/2016/11/01/car-license-plate-dubai-auction-rolls-royce/

By that logic, the license plate is really worth that much since there are people willing to pay for it.

Well it's just 1 guy. If there were large amounts of people demanding it, then sure it's worth it because there's a market for it. Not in the US though lol

 

[MJ DeMarco]

Okay got some potentially big news...

I got a sales call on Friday for a smaller job around 3-4k. I am going to offer to do it a little cheaper with one condition - I can record me making the website and stick it on the forums for others to learn from. If it goes ahead I will start a new thread and post a series of videos on how the website is made from concept to fully hosted.

I estimate 10 - 20 hours but I will try plan my work flow to keep it as concise as possible (no browsing Gold threads and eating snacks while I code).

I will update you soon as to if this is going ahead.

If you do, please start a new thread -- I can edit the titles and make sure they stay joined. Thanks!

 

[sector7]

Why does it matter to you what Fox or anyone does and how long it should take someone to get started? It's almost like you have a problem with the lower barrier to entry and somehow it'll hurt your business. but let me tell you from someone who performed as a top producer in b2b inside sales for a well known mid market company, sales it not easy.

I can give you a script and tell you exactly what to say and people still wash out.

There's a rule in the sales world, top 10-20% will kill it, bottom 20% will wash out and the rest will make barely just enough to get by. Sales is a grind and a hustle and if your skills and prospecting doesn't get you in the beginning, the grind and constantly hunting will.

It does not matter to me what Fox does, and he's certainly not hurting my business in any way haha. I know that sales is a lot of work and I am not discrediting him for all his hard efforts. Perhaps there was a misunderstanding, so I rest my case

Well it's just 1 guy. If there were large amounts of people demanding it, then sure it's worth it because there's a market for it. Not in the US though lol

There are websites which sell customized license plates like these, so there is definitely a market for it. When it's not your own money, or you have too much money, you have no problem with spending $50k on a website, $1 million on an app and hundreds of thousands on a license plate. Fortunately (or maybe unfortunately? ) we don't all live like that.

 

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[Fox]

Damn there is a lot of good points here on both sides. You guys are posting too fast!

The answer lies somewhere in between. Yes I charge quite a lot for what I do but at the same time I get results and the clients I have are extremely happy. What is throwing this conversation off from the start is the quote I attached. I didn't explain it well and thats my mistake. I dont charge 1200 for a logo ha (yet) its just a rough guide for a client to visualize how I came up with that price. I don't price like that whatsoever but people have asked for invoices and I can't just write "website - $12,000".

Now people might ask how you can download a $30 theme, make some edits and charge literally 400 times more. Well thats the magic and thats what is contained in this thread and indeed this whole forum. I can see how without the details it looks suspicious or strange but for anyone who could Skype with me for even a few minutes it would start to become clear. I (in my opinion) build really nice websites, that have gotten very good results, and my customer service and who I pick as a customer are at a very high level. I stay well away from companies that I can't add value to or if I still work with them I drop my price a lot (less and less I do these type of jobs).

I am going to compare it to copywriting. If you had to write the slogan for a campaign but it was only 7 words should you charge by the word? Or course not.

I add my value in many ways but one is by finding companies that are doing terrible online. I change their business and I create an asset with maybe 3-4 years shelf life that will consistently increase their profits and customer acquisition. It adds a lot of value. For at least one company over a million revenue in less than two months. Now if you seen the same website afterwards you could argue you could build that in a week (and you probably could) but you didn't find that company and you didn't see how to do it (not you but people in general).

People charge $100 on UpWork cause they are waiting their for work and its an open market. Go find people, help them, get results and you can charge what you want. 90% of my new jobs are referrals. I don't call 1000 companies and pressure sell 5 into a website. In fact I hate that. Maybe one of my students can chime in but I promote pressure free sales and lots of value up front.

I think maybe its time @Andy Black and me have that talk haha!

But lots of good valid points in here but you don't have the full picture and its not possible for me to start linking jobs on here and giving away private info about companies internal dealings.

I will write more later since there are a lot of great talking points above but I welcome this type of talk and it helps everyone on here a lot.

 

[Fox]

I am going to Skype with @sector7 next week and we can discuss the different sides of web design and what is adding value and whats just scamming people. I will post it up here and we can see what others have to say.

I am looking forward to it and although we disagree on some points it makes for an interesting talk and I am sure it will help people a lot.

We just had a chat on Skype (by text) and he is clearly a smart guy with some great points.

 

[devine]

I'll answer, because it's just so F*cking funny.

I run a web / app development and design company in the U.S. My goal is not only to offer value to my customers but also to give them a great deal. The amount you charge for a very simple website is how much I charge for a complex Android + iOS app.
a) How do you justify charging $4800 for some basic "programming" in CSS and HTML (which are not programming languages actually and can be learned in a couple of weeks just like you said)?
b) How can you charge $1200 for graphic elements and a logo? I am very curious to see one of these websites you have done.

a) Breaking down costs is a wrong approach, because some clients will just go to people like you and return with: "They do it for cheaper.", not understanding that code =/= code, design =/=design and etc.
You don't pay for service, you pay for end-product. Everyone can write on paper with a pen, some people write things worth 1$, some people write things worth millions.
b) 1200$ is far less than an "ok" logo, alone, costs.

I think the approach of charging based on the value you bring to a company is wrong and leads to inflation. What if every single business charged by that model? Can you imagine what would happen to prices?

It doesn't, because very few people can justify what they charge. From what I see people have trouble time trying to justify $10k for website works, closing 1 client out of 100.
On the other hand, the fact that some people charge 500$ for web design, just because they downloaded Photoshop and learned some stuff from tutorials on google, devalues the whole industry and makes real professionals explain to their clients that professional works don't have anything to do with what amatures do.

Imagine going to the dental hygienist to get your teeth whitened before an interview for a modeling job. The teeth whitening helps you land that job and you end up making $100k a year. Let's just assume that if you had yellow teeth, you would not have gotten the modeling job. Would you be willing to pay $20k (20% of the yearly salary of your new job) to get your teeth whitened?

Imagine going to the dental clinic to get veneers. As a complex technology, veneers cost up to $50k (probably more in US). Would you be willing to pay $50k? People are.
This is a more appropriate comparison.

Imagine you have problems with your prostate so you start eating pumpkin seeds (good for your prostate) which helps you cure your problem within a couple of months. Would you be willing to then pay thousands of dollars for those pumpkin seeds that potentially saved your life even though you can buy them from other places for $5 a pound or find cheaper alternatives that result in the same outcome?

Imagine you have a business that makes you $200k a year.
How much would you pay for something that will help you to make $300k?

Successful businesses know what they need and pay for it accordingly. Others pay pennies and wonder why business is not moving.

Imagine you need to fly to China and sign a $100k contract. Would you be willing to pay $20 000 for the plane ticket to your destination if it meant getting to contract?

Imagine you need to sell 10 000 000$ worth of products over time.
Would you be willing to pay $10k to a person who will create a platform for your business that will determine your sales in next 3 years?

I work with businesses that are willing to pay $100k upfront for production supervision for such platforms. These people are not rare. And no, there is not many people who they will even consider going to.

The same applies to people who think that minimum wage should be increased. What do you think will happen to prices overall if a McDonalds employee starts making $15 an hour? Everything else will become more expensive as well, so the minimum wage increase is mostly an illusion.

Comparing business services to working at McDonalds is just hilarious.
Let me share a secret, there are other restaurants. Do you think people work for a minimum wage there?

Came from the dentist the other day and was charged $1400 for two hours of work. When that dentist had to pay $20k for his new website, he's going to charge $700 an hour to compensate for that. When he knows that a Burger King worker who never finished high school makes $15 an hour, he'll bump his prices accordingly. This is happening everywhere around us, but seems like few are aware of it.

He'll charge exactly what he can justify. Specialists set prices according to their competency.

Just because your website brings 10 new clients for that particular business, does not mean you need to charge him extra for that. Many other web design companies create the same websites like you do and bring the same amount of clients + "value" to your customer, but charge a fraction of the cost. You could say that they are stupid or you could say that they are fair. Depends on how you view it.

Many web design companies create "the same websites like you do", which turns out to be not exactly the same. They actually share nothing in common other than a title "website".
Business owner who makes $100k a year and meets someone who can help him make $150k - pays accordingly.

I understand that most of us on this forum consider ourselves smarter than the "stupid and naive slowlaners", but we should never go down to the level of taking advantage of people and we should think thoroughly about this since sometimes we are not aware of what we're doing.
Better to be an honest slowlaner than a crooked fastlaner. One thing I notice repeatedly on this forum is that many members do not grasp the concept that a world without slowlaners would be hell on Earth. We should wake up every single morning and thank God (or whatever you believe in) for slowlaners because without them, the fastlane model would not work.
Without people willing to work their whole lives and do repeated tasks for very little money, without people who don't dream of retiring at 30 and then just enjoying life, without people who devote their whole lives to improving the lives of others and not expecting monetary rewards, without all the scientists, authors, mathematicians, inventors, engineers who make incredible discoveries and don't even patent their work or ask for any sort of recognition, this world would not function. These are the true heroes.

That exactly the problem with you.
You think it's about shortcuts. About making up numbers. About charging more. About taking advantage of someone else.

The better you do something, the more you charge for it. It's what the world is.

Why the most complex surgeries don't cost 5$?
Because they are complex and require a certain degree of competency, which is why people fly to other countries and pay 10x more to have a more professional care.

Why some authors pay dozens of thousands of dollars to launch their book? Ah, wait, the book costs the same 10$ as others?
Hmm... Probably because these authors manage to sell 100x more.

I can continue this list forever, but I think it's already clear enough.

I am not here to argue with anyone, but am simply presenting a different perspective. Charging $12k for such a basic website means taking advantage in my book, no matter what "value" you bring to the client. Would be fun to compare our work in private @Fox and see if the $10k difference in price truly reflects on the value each of us brings to our customers. Sure, one could argue that I am undercharging my clients, but I would not be able to sleep at night if I charged them that amount for a simple WordPress website and some content, which any high school student can learn to do after a few months of practice.

From your talk, I'm 100% positive that you don't undercharge your clients.
Actually, most likely you overcharge them, because if you think that learning how to do websites takes a few months, it says enough.

Only idiots think that buying a wordpress template, doing basic customization, inserting blocks of text and pictures is a well done job.

Let us not take advantage of people's ignorance.

Explained this kind of vision above.

This post is literally the most pathetic thing I've ever read.

 

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[Fox]

@devine has a very direct way of saying it but he has some excellent points. I understand both of you cause I have had different ways of thinking about this over the years. Value added is value added, and you can charge for that quite well.

Thinking of websites in terms of what they do and not what they are is the difference here that changes working from $100 to $100,000

 

[sector7]

Thank you for your enlightenment @devine

I'll answer, because it's just so F*cking funny.


a) Breaking down costs is a wrong approach, because some clients will just go to people like you and return with: "They do it for cheaper.", not understanding that code =/= code, design =/=design and etc.
You don't pay for service, you pay for end-product. Everyone can write on paper with a pen, some people write things worth 1$, some people write things worth millions.
b) 1200$ is far less than an "ok" logo, alone, costs.

a) "People like" me? Do we know each other from somewhere? Do you know anything about the quality of my work?

b) A logo can cost anywhere from $5 to $500k+ and can look exactly the same. Both vectorized, both professional and both equally liked by the customer. Big corporations with large budgets have no problem with spending lots of money on one. Business owners who work hard for their money on the other hand, know that they have better uses for their money.

It doesn't, because very few people can justify what they charge. From what I see people have trouble time trying to justify $10k for website works, closing 1 client of 100.
On the other hand, the fact that some people charge 500$ for web design, just because they downloaded Photoshop and learned some stuff from tutorials on google, devalues the whole industry and makes real professionals explain to their clients that professional works don't have anything to do with what amatures do.

This is what Fox and everyone following his steps are doing. Surely they are not professional designers after a few months of online tutorials and landing some clients. I'd be interested to hear if Fox considers himself a professional designer or an amateur. Did you read this topic at all? What you listed is what Fox recommends.

Imagine going to the dental clinic to get veneers. As a complex technology, veneers cost up to $50k (probably more in US). Would you be willing to pay $50k? People are.
This is a more appropriate comparison.

Why is that a more appropriate comparison? Only people who pay that much are celebrities or people who make money from their appearance. The reason why it's so expensive is because the process has to be done for each tooth individually and the materials are expensive. Most people don't get veneers for every single tooth in their mouth. To answer your question, I think very few people are willing to pay that much. Besides, just because someone is willing to pay a lot for something, does not mean it's worth that much.

Imagine you have a business that makes you $200k a year.
How much would you pay for something that will help you to make $300k?

Successful businesses know what they need and pay for it accordingly. Others pay pennies and wonder why business is not moving.

Depends on what it is. If it was something as simple as creating a new, nice looking website, a few thousand dollars seems fair. If it means getting a new 3D printer to help with the high demand of my business, then I'd be willing to pay a lot more. It's as if I asked you how much are you willing to pay to be able to speak a new language fluently in 6 months? The price range for this can be anywhere from free up to tens of thousands of dollars. The final outcome would be the same.

Imagine you need to sell 10 000 000$ worth of products over time.
Would you be willing to pay $10k to a person who will create a platform for your business that will determine your sales in next 3 years?

I work with businesses that are willing to pay $100k upfront for production supervision for such platforms. These people are not rare. And no, there is not many people who they will even consider going to.

I don't know why you guys always need to use exaggerated examples to prove a point. Big companies with big budgets treat their money differently, so this is irrelevant.

Comparing business services to working at McDonalds is just hilarious.
Let me share a secret, there are other restaurants. Do you think people work for a minimum wage there?

I wasn't comparing that. Stop acting like a smart-a$$. The McDonald's analogy was used when I was discussing inflation.

He'll charge exactly what he can justify. Specialists set prices according to their competency.

Specialists? This topic is about making websites with HTML and CSS. Surely you can't be a "specialist" in that. Those are the basics of web design. Once you learn that, you can spend another 5 years to become a specialist in web design.

Many web design companies create "the same websites like you do", which turns out to be not exactly the same. They actually share nothing in common other than a title "website".
Business owner who makes $100k a year and meets someone who can help him make $150k - pays accordingly.

No web designer in his right might would guarantee that his website will bring positive results. If you find a good and honest designer, a $5k, $10k or $50k website will bring the same exact results.

That exactly the problem with you.
You think it's about shortcuts. About making up numbers. About charging more. About taking advantage of someone else.

You got me all figured out!

The better you do something, the more you charge for it. It's what the world is.

Haha, sure. Usually the ones charging the most, are the biggest scammers. Not everybody is in it for money like you seem to be.

Why the most complex surgeries don't cost 5$?
Because they are complex and require a certain degree of competency, which is why people fly to other countries and pay 10x more to have a more professional care.

Ok, let's compare basic HTML and CSS to complex surgeries. Makes perfect sense! Web design can be learned in a few months (don't believe me? go read the original post). A surgeon spends a decade studying the subject and then his whole life practicing + studying it further. Not to mention the amount of responsibility and stress associated to the job.

Why some authors pay dozens of thousands of dollars to launch their book? Ah, wait, the book costs the same 10$ as others?
Hmm... Probably because these authors manage to sell 100x more.

I can continue this list forever, but I think it's already clear enough.

Wasn't MJ's book a self published book? Seems to have done pretty well. You should give MJ some advice since you have everything figured out.

From your talk, I'm 100% positive that you don't undercharge your clients.
Actually, most likely you overcharge them, because if you think that learning how to do websites takes a few months, it says enough.

Only idiots think that buying a wordpress template, doing basic customization, inserting blocks of text and pictures is a well done job.

Again, read the original thread. Didn't Fox say that people can reach his level in 5 months? Do you think he performs brain surgeries and rocket simulations or what do you think he does other than what you listed there?

This post is literally the most pathetic thing I've ever read.

Agreed.

Out of curisoity @Fox how many of your customers are fastlaners? This whole forum is centered around the topic of not wasting your money on stuff you don't need (fancy websites, fancy logo, fancy business cards, fancy anything) since you can reach the same outcome through other more hands on methods. I'd be curious to know when you find a fastlane customer willing to pay your rates. Something tells me that they have better things to do with their money, but would be interesting if you could show me otherwise

 

[Lex DeVille]

I'd be curious to know when you find a fastlane customer willing to pay your rates.

You mean like in this thread where 6-10 paid his rates for a brand new service he had no prior experience in?

https://www.thefastlaneforum.com/co...or-6-figure-web-company-i’ll-guide-you.70557/

People pay for rapid solutions and value.

Xmillion dollar companies pay even more.

What's valuable for me and you isn't the same as what's valuable to someone else.

You may not find basic websites valuable, but that doesn't mean it's not. It means it's not for you.

I'm not sure what the disconnect is.

The right person with the right solution in the right place at the right time can charge higher rates.

You don't have to believe it works for it to be true. The market decides that.

 

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[sector7]

You mean like in this thread where 6-10 paid his rates for a brand new service he had no prior experience in?

https://www.thefastlaneforum.com/community/threads/build-a-5-or-6-figure-web-company-i’ll-guide-you.70557/

People pay for rapid solutions and value.

Xmillion dollar companies pay even more.

What's valuable for me and you isn't the same as what's valuable to someone else.

You may not find basic websites valuable, but that doesn't mean it's not. It means it's not for you.

I'm not sure what the disconnect is.

The right person with the right solution in the right place at the right time can charge higher rates.

You don't have to believe it works for it to be true. The market decides that.

No, he did not charge his regular web design rates in that topic. That topic is about "how to do what I do and make $15k a month like me. Pay me $600 and I'll train you".

Again with the Xmillion dollar companies with huge budgets?! Those companies don't have time to shop around. They pick someone reputable and pay the high rates. They have budgets put aside. It's not as if the CEO is paying out of his pocket. If he was paying, you can be sure they would be shopping around a lot more

 

[Lex DeVille]

No, he did not charge his regular web design rates in that topic. That topic is about "how to do what I do and make $15k a month like me. Pay me $600 and I'll train you".

Again with the Xmillion dollar companies with huge budgets?! Those companies don't have time to shop around. They pick someone reputable and pay the high rates. They have budgets put aside. It's not as if the CEO is paying out of his pocket. If he was paying, you can be sure they would be shopping around a lot more

Maybe I caught the tail end of all this, but I'm not sure I understand your point?

This thread is all about selling basic web sites to companies with huge budgets to earn high pay.

Nobody in here is selling to Aunt Margaret as far as I know?

$600 might as well be $15k to an entrepreneur strapped for cash tho.

 

[sector7]

Maybe I caught the tail end of all this, but I'm not sure I understand your point?

This thread is all about selling basic web sites to companies with huge budgets to earn high pay.

Nobody in here is selling to Aunt Margaret as far as I know?

$600 might as well be $15k to an entrepreneur strapped for cash tho.

No, this thread is about selling basic websites to companies. Fox just so happens to sell them to companies with larger budgets (I wouldn't say "HUGE"), because he doesn't want to deal with people who tell him his prices are huge. With larger companies he most likely doesn't have this problem as often, since the person in charge of the decision is most likely not even the business owner but rather an employee with a budget from the boss. He most likely knows that anyone else would not be willing to pay those amounts, no matter what returns he brings them.

 

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[Denim Chicken]

No, this thread is about selling basic websites to companies. Fox just so happens to sell them to companies with larger budgets (I wouldn't say "HUGE"), because he doesn't want to deal with people who tell him his prices are huge. With larger companies he most likely doesn't have this problem as often, since the person in charge of the decision is most likely not even the business owner but rather an employee with a budget from the boss. He most likely knows that anyone else would not be willing to pay those amounts, no matter what returns he brings them.

Now I'm confused what you're saying. Is your argument that he is selling something that should be priced lower and only gets away with it because he deals with people who are too big to see the "truth"?


If so all of my arguments stand. The market dictates the prices. If that's how you feel then why don't you sell to those people too? I'm sure there are people in India who feel your prices are "inflated". You fail to understand value in this context. And from the pages of this thread fox has worked with small businesses. I also know if other web agencies that price and sell to these businesses.

So are they really inflating prices or are you selling yourself short?

Well the market will tell you.

 

[Fox]

I know you mean well so don't take this as any personal. I still want to chat on Skype and I do see where you are coming from.

People pay what I charge because they want a premium service. From sales to service, design to hosting I do everything the best I can ( and I believe above the level of what a lot of other people offer). Yes the code is simple but its used well, and its only one part.

You are looking at this in a very different way. You are only seeing hours worked and code used. You seem to be missing value added. And I know we don't have to give extreme examples in either direction but this is a real thing and people pay well for a good service.

This is the same mindset as @IceCreamKid thread on carpet cleaning and @SinisterLex thread on copywriting, and many others. We add huge value and in return we charge well for that service. I know its legit because of my feedback and satisfaction from clients. The market is more than happy to pay my rates. I actually think I undercharge ha.

I do deal directly with the owners in nearly every case and sometimes they have big budgets and sometimes they don't. These are not spontaneous purchases and no hard sales techniques are used.

I don't know how to convince you and maybe its something you will have to arrive at yourself but its simply value pricing. I add a lot of value and I take a portion in return. Its win - win and everyone walks away happy. I love what I do and don't feel guilty about my prices whatsoever. This is not a scheme, or some trick, its a great service that helps a certain type of business a lot.

 

[sector7]

Now I'm confused what you're saying. Is your argument that he is selling something that should be priced lower and only gets away with it because he deals with people who are too big to see the "truth"?

If so all of my arguments stand. The market dictates the prices. If that's how you feel then why don't you sell to those people too? I'm sure there are people in India who feel your prices are "inflated". You fail to understand value in this context. And from the pages of this thread fox has worked with small businesses. I also know if other web agencies that price and sell to these businesses.

So are they really inflating prices or are you selling yourself short?

Well the market will tell you.

Yes indeed. The market does tell us. That's why almost every single service and product is increasing in price at a rapid rate. What used to cost X at the mechanic a decade ago, now costs 2X. Same goes for dentists, plumbers and almost everything else.

When a few large industries start overcharging, the competitors follow, and the other industries are forced to either go out of business or increase their prices as well.

I don't do much web design anymore, but I do sell my other services to large businesses. People in India can't say that my prices are inflated since they live in a different country with a different cost of living.

I know you mean well so don't take this as any personal. I still want to chat on Skype and I do see where you are coming from.

People pay what I charge because they want a premium service. From sales to service, design to hosting I do everything the best I can ( and I believe above what a lot of other people offer). Yes the code is simple but its used well, and its only one part.

You are looking at this in a very different way. You are only seeing hours worked and code used. You seem to be missing value added. And I know we don't have to give extreme examples in either direction but this is a real thing and people pay well for a good service.

This is the same mindset as @IceCreamKid thread on carpet cleaning and @SinisterLex thread on copywriting, and many others. We add huge value and in return we charge well for that service. I know its legit because of my feedback and satisfaction from clients. The market is more than happy to pay my rates. I actually think I undercharge ha.

I do deal directly with the owners in nearly every case and sometimes they have big budgets and sometimes they don't. There are not spontaneous purchases and they think well about what I can do.

I don't know how to convince you and maybe its something you will have to arise at yourself but its simply value pricing. I add a lot of value and I take a portion in return. Its win - win and everyone walks away happy. I love what I do and don't feel guilty about my prices whatsoever. This is not a scheme, or some trick, its a great service that helps a certain type of business a lot.

Can say the exact same thing about my clients. Perhaps I should follow the trend and add another 0 at the end of my invoices Everything I do for my customers is with value in mind, so I don't think it's fair to say I am missing that aspect. I guess I just don't value my own work enough, but considering it's not a fastlane business, I didn't think it would be fair to ask such high prices.

 

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[Denim Chicken]

Yes indeed. The market does tell us. That's why almost every single service and product is increasing in price at a rapid rate. What used to cost X at the mechanic a decade ago, now costs 2X. Same goes for dentists, plumbers and almost everything else.

When a few large industries start overcharging, the competitors follow, and the other industries are forced to either go out of business or increase their prices as well.

I don't do much web design anymore, but I do sell my other services to large businesses. People in India can't say that my prices are inflated since they live in a different country with a different cost of living.



Can say the exact same thing about my clients. Perhaps I should follow the trend and add another 0 at the end of my invoices

Thanks for clarifying. I think youre grossly misunderstanding how economics and free market works. This isn't something you can control so if those are the rules of economics i play by them.

Respectfully if you feel his methods are ethically questionable you don't have to emulate it. I find that interesting and couldn't disagree more. But if your business is thriving in other pricing methods you don't need the sales process outlined here

 

[Fox]

I am going to bow out at this stage. Inflation is a little bit outside my control as a web designer.

I would recommend this quick read to anyone who wants to follow up more on this topic...
https://www.freshbooks.com/assets/other/Breaking-the-Time-Barrier.pdf
https://www.freshbooks.com/assets/other/Breaking-the-Time-Barrier.pdf

 

[sector7]

To be honest, what I really wanted to get across about is people following Fox's advice for the money, without focusing on the value. We can probably safely say that his tagline and use of numbers encouraged many members to follow his advice. This might lead to an influx of overpriced, poor designers who just want to make the advertised "15K / month". There are already a lot of service based businesses with this mentality, which is a shame. Anyway

It was just a difference in opinion. Thank you for the civil arguments.

Great thread nonetheless @Fox

 

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[Fox]

Guys first of my videos with how to get into this stuff...

This is just a quick run down on how to buy a theme and get it up and running. Let me know if you guys have any feedback etc. I will start a new thread on this soon (showing techniques, building stuff, hosting etc)

 

[Denim Chicken]

To be honest, what I really wanted to get across about is people following Fox's advice for the money, without focusing on the value. We can probably safely say that his tagline and use of numbers encouraged many members to follow his advice. This might lead to an influx of overpriced, poor designers who just want to make the advertised "15K / month". There are already a lot of service based businesses with this mentality, which is a shame. Anyway

It was just a difference in opinion. Thank you for the civil arguments.

Great thread nonetheless @Fox

I see. In that case you have a point but i wouldnt worry too much. Charging a lot without value leads to high churn and no referrals. Fox says his business is about 90% referrals now so at least people are happy with his stuff.
I think that people reading this and thinking it will be easy money are in for a shock, it takes time and a lot of customer service and revisions and hours of coding and research to do it right and good. Those who don't will lose customers or even worse, get sued.