Why copywriting is a bunch of Bull$h^t and you shouldn't learn it...

[Kyle Tully]

Sounds like a case of tunnel vision rather than "copywriting is bullshit".

Dan Kennedy's Marketing Triangle:
______Message______
Market_______Media

Send the right message to the right market using the right media

In this case, it was the WRONG message to CEOs using Email (or right message to wrong market - either way there was a mismatch there).

Sounds like he copied out a lot of Gary Halbert Ads by hand but didn't keep in mind many of them were newspaper ads targeting broad audiences via print.

Over excited to finally release built up knowledge and get some action... resulted in loss of common sense and a premature ending.

edit: ugly triangle..

THIS.

Copywriting isn't about using "dear friend" or copying tactics you saw someone in the past use, it's about writing a message to a person. No good copywriter would have written a letter like your friend did. Unfortunately reading and copying copy doesn't make you a copywriter

 

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[Growth & Learn]

THIS.

Copywriting isn't about using "dear friend" or copying tactics you saw someone in the past use, it's about writing a message to a person. No good copywriter would have written a letter like your friend did. Unfortunately reading and copying copy doesn't make you a copywriter

Exactly.

 

[SweetTooth]

@AndrewNC This is equivalent to saying "I was at a steakhouse and I told the chef I wanted a steak. He said okay. I expected a juicy, pristine, intelligently-seasoned and lusciously rare-cooked steak. But I was shocked at what he served me. It was a mediocre, plainly seasoned and well-done steak. What are chefs and steak even good for if they aren't even delicious 100% of the time? This is proof this world doesn't need chefs or steaks!!!"

P.S. If you took the time to learn copywriting, you wouldn't have had to give up the control of hiring a third-class copywriter to do your emails for you. "Well done, you played yourself." - DJ Khaled

 

[Formless]

*"Congratulations, you played yourself."

-- DJ Khaled

 

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[MitchC]

*"Congratulations, you played yourself."

-- DJ Khaled

 

[Shades]

Ill never understand the obsession a lot of millennials seem to have with DJ Khaled

 

[Formless]

Ill never understand the obsession a lot of millennials seem to have with DJ Khaled

We Millenials, unlike all other generations (apparently), like to laugh.

[HASHTAG]#IHateMyGeneration[/HASHTAG]

/sarcasm



But since I'm trolling, I'll make a meaningful remark.

When Andrew says "Copywriting is a bunch of bullshit." (I'm pretty sure) he doesn't mean the dictionary definition of 'copywriting.' Just the F*ckery commonly associated with people who live in the "copywriting is everything, Halbert is lord" bubble. If you don't take the headline personally, it's pretty obvious what Andrew means.

 

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[Delmania]

I should also add that from my personal experience...the ROI on the time I've spent learning how to sell has been incredibly fast lane.

The bold part is a realization I had. Learning to write sales copy will teach you how to market, which is something any entrepreneur will need to do. It will also teach you a valuable skill, if you have nothing.

 

[Shades]

We Millenials, unlike all other generations (apparently), like to laugh.

[HASHTAG]#IHateMyGeneration[/HASHTAG]

/sarcasm



But since I'm trolling, I'll make a meaningful remark.

When Andrew says "Copywriting is a bunch of bullshit." (I'm pretty sure) he doesn't mean the dictionary definition of 'copywriting.' Just the F*ckery commonly associated with people who live in the "copywriting is everything, Halbert is lord" bubble. If you don't take the headline personally, it's pretty obvious what Andrew means.

I am a millennial, and I still dont get it. I agree with the last part tho.

 

[Charnell]

Ill never understand the obsession a lot of millennials seem to have with DJ Khaled

Probably in the same way that people on this forum have an obsession with whether something is slowlane of fastlane.

He has catchphrases, and whether anyone wants to admit it or not is a pretty major influencer in hip-hop and the music industry as a whole. He's the equivalent to Gary V, MJ, Grant Cardone, Tai Lopez, Neil Patel, etc. for the crowd he's in. I'm not comparing him directly to those I just named, but how people on this forum (entrepreneurs) will say things are fast or slowlane or whatever, people that follow DJ Khaled will say things like "you played yourself" and "bless up".

It's not that hard to understand the obsession.

Different strokes for different folks.

 

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[Deleted35442]

Wow, I had no idea you were so butthurt over that GOLD thread, a thread which I marked GOLD.

I would go into detail about WHY it was marked GOLD but what's the point, you've made up your mind that any Slowlane or "trade for time" endeavor is one gigantic waste of time, even if you're 17 years old with zero skills, zero money, and zero experience.

This contradicts just about everything you preached in your book. I don't like inconsistencies. I still maintain working for someone at 17 and learning an industry is far more valuable than hunting for copy jobs on Freelance sites. Can't emphasize enough the number of Entrepreneurs that find a problem by working at a job and then recognizing they can do it better. I don't know what your angle is but I'm losing respect for you by the day with what I'm reading.

 

[BaraQueenbee]

This contradicts just about everything you preached in your book. I don't like inconsistencies. I still maintain working for someone at 17 and learning an industry is far more valuable than hunting for copy jobs on Freelance sites. Can't emphasize enough the number of Entrepreneurs that find a problem by working at a job and then recognizing they can do it better. I don't know what your angle is but I'm losing respect for you by the day with what I'm reading.

You've been putting negative vibes and responding badly emotional since you've entered this thread, with condescending and disrespectful comments.

When you talk about inconsistencies , you seem to be the one and only fitting that title.
Unlike you said, there is plenty of room for "slowlaners and sidewalkers" on this forum, however there is no place for disrespecting well contributing forum members and absolutely no place for disrespecting the owner (again, how freaking dare you?!?!)

If you can not have a discussion with mutual respect and nice ness, the Internets is not the place for you, be sure to turn your computer/tablet/phone off, cause ain't nobody got time for this.

 

[lowtek]

This contradicts just about everything you preached in your book. I don't like inconsistencies. I still maintain working for someone at 17 and learning an industry is far more valuable than hunting for copy jobs on Freelance sites. Can't emphasize enough the number of Entrepreneurs that find a problem by working at a job and then recognizing they can do it better. I don't know what your angle is but I'm losing respect for you by the day with what I'm reading.

How is working as a freelancer not the same as working for someone else? What, do you think you're being paid by magical fairies who just produce money out of thin air? You're working to solve the problems of a business. This can lead to insights into deficiencies in their business model, and allow you to leverage your skills to compete with them head on.

And also, you want to jump on MJ for his decision to mark gold a thread that provided enormous value for this community? What are you on dude?

I sense an impending ban hammer

 

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[Raoul Duke]

This contradicts just about everything you preached in your book. I don't like inconsistencies. I still maintain working for someone at 17 and learning an industry is far more valuable than hunting for copy jobs on Freelance sites. Can't emphasize enough the number of Entrepreneurs that find a problem by working at a job and then recognizing they can do it better. I don't know what your angle is but I'm losing respect for you by the day with what I'm reading.

 

[Maxjohan]

I don't know what your angle is but I'm losing respect for you by the day with what I'm reading.

Dude. Why don't you ask him what his angle is, instead of riding on the high horse and coming with remarks like this. ??

 

[marklov]

1 year to learn decent copy or
1 month to get decent on the phone....

Cold Calling FTW.

I believe many people learning copy are just hopping
on a bandwagon because it's the "in-thing" and not because it will play a significant
part in their success to the fastlane which is different from chasing shiny objects.

 

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[Maxjohan]

I believe many people learning copy are just hopping
on a bandwagon because it's the "in-thing" and not because it will play a significant
part in their success to the fastlane which is different from chasing shiny objects.

I think the best form of Copy is showing your personality and being awesome. One of my favorite sites doing this is LingsCars.com. I really like their approach.

I also remember reading many years ago. Someone who was fed up with salesy/hype online copy and sales web sites. She thought the message should use... humor, intellectual and educational.

It still stuck with me. I think for sure. Those are powerful ingredients if you combine them. If you are going to sell something online.

 

[The-J]

An Ivy League investment banker shitting on the Slowlane.... lol

 

[MJ DeMarco]

I don't like inconsistencies.

And I don't like readers who take everything I write literally and label everything as a binary choice, either/or, black/white, yes/no.

I still maintain working for someone at 17 and learning an industry is far more valuable than hunting for copy jobs on Freelance sites.

And I maintain BOTH are equally valuable to the young kid who doesn't know where to start because he's as skillless and idealess as they get. These are the same lost folks who roll into this forum and ask "Is this Fastlane?" When you're too proud to work for someone or too lazy to learn a skill, sorry, that's not Fastlane no matter how anyone interprets what I wrote.

https://www.thefastlaneforum.com/community/threads/is-this-fastlane-uh-no-it-isnt.58554/

As for the copywriting thread, it's GOLD because it could show someone how to write their own checks and get them out of the job culture. For me, this would have been something I found valuable when I was 22 years old and struggling from shit job to shit job.

but I'm losing respect for you by the day

Don't worry about it, lose whatever you feel justifies your dualism-- you won't threaten my sleep.

 

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[Supa]

This contradicts just about everything you preached in your book. I don't like inconsistencies. I still maintain working for someone at 17 and learning an industry is far more valuable than hunting for copy jobs on Freelance sites. Can't emphasize enough the number of Entrepreneurs that find a problem by working at a job and then recognizing they can do it better. I don't know what your angle is but I'm losing respect for you by the day with what I'm reading.

Did you think about the possiblity of people wanting to do freelance jobs to escape 9-5 jobs, to support their Fastlane endeavours? That can be just another way of hustling on the side to finance your own business, or to learn copy while doing it with real life examples and help someone else at the same time.

You're disrespectful towards the man who changed the lifes of most on us on here, just because you THINK a thread that teaches people on here a lot of good lessons in many things (helping others, marketing skills, etc.) doesn't deserve a GOLD tag, because in your opinion it is Slowlane-ish?! What is Slowlane-ish in helping others and improving your skills? Just because someone works a job or does freelance jobs while building his Fastlane business, to finance this business, doesn't mean it is Slowlane.

 

[MartinMC]

As for the copywriting thread, it's GOLD because it could show someone how to write their own checks and get them out of the job culture. For me, this would have been something I found valuable when I was 22 years old and struggling from shit job to shit job.

^ This ^ is exactly right. Learning about copywriting from the copy threads on here (especially @SinisterLex) has allowed me to:

1.) Write my own checks and quit my shit job

and

2.) Start funding my fastlane endeavor

 

[AndrewNC]

^ This ^ is exactly right. Learning about copywriting from the copy threads on here (especially @SinisterLex) has allowed me to:

1.) Write my own checks and quit my shit job

and

2.) Start funding my fastlane endeavor

Great path - we all have our own and that is a great way to go.

this is just kind f my thoughts right now - knowing I did that same approach in the past.

With tie Fastlane endevour - what if you hire someone like Lex to do te copy for you?

And focus on bigger growth aspects of your business?

Both ways work - but this latter way is how im working on my business now

 

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[Deleted35442]

An Ivy League investment banker shitting on the Slowlane.... lol

I-Banking is indisputably shit. It's after 2-3 years you can leave with clients and resources to carve out a hedge fund or other endeavor with credibility in the finance world. I obviously didn't go this route but I'd take it any day over half-assing Freelance copy jobs.

@Supa Yes I did. If I could go back in time I wouldn't have left my job, and no promise of learning copy and applying to endless Freelance copy jobs would change that. @relentlessaction works and has a booming eCommerce biz on the side. This 9-5 you're vilifying only inhibits you as much as you let it. When I was at a 9-5 I was able to blow through work and piss about on whatever else it was I wanted to do. I'd go so far as to say if you're a gifted multitasker you could work while building the business hiring a virtual receptionist to field any calls while working your 9-5. And you get benefits and reliable workflow consistency.

I digress. @MJ DeMarco wrote a great book, it inspired me and many others undeniably. But if I was 17, I'd get a job over this. You can argue semantics all you like. This just doesn't add up to what you promoted in your book. If you're so pro-Fastlane in your book why not inspire all 17 year olds to be this guy rather than compete with a million randos in third world countries for copy jobs?

Copy sucks. Don't learn it. Don't work for others doing it. Am with OP on this.

 

[Lex DeVille]

I-Banking is indisputably shit. It's after 2-3 years you can leave with clients and resources to carve out a hedge fund or other endeavor with credibility in the finance world. I obviously didn't go this route but I'd take it any day over half-assing Freelance copy jobs.

@Supa Yes I did. If I could go back in time I wouldn't have left my job, and no promise of learning copy and applying to endless Freelance copy jobs would change that. @relentlessaction works and has a booming eCommerce biz on the side. This 9-5 you're vilifying only inhibits you as much as you let it. When I was at a 9-5 I was able to blow through work and piss about on whatever else it was I wanted to do. I'd go so far as to say if you're a gifted multitasker you could work while building the business hiring a virtual receptionist to field any calls while working your 9-5. And you get benefits and reliable workflow consistency.

I digress. @MJ DeMarco wrote a great book, it inspired me and many others undeniably. But if I was 17, I'd get a job over this. You can argue semantics all you like. This just doesn't add up to what you promoted in your book. If you're so pro-Fastlane in your book why not inspire all 17 year olds to be this guy rather than compete with a million randos in third world countries for copy jobs?

Copy sucks. Don't learn it. Don't work for others doing it. Am with OP on this.

Maybe the book was misinterpreted. Maybe the point of the OP was misinterpreted too. From the posts here it seems the copywriting threads were definitely misinterpreted.

I only know of 2 Gold posts about copy and neither of them promote freelancing or copy as being "Fastlane" or even as something people on this forum should do. Both threads share the experiences of the author with an intent of showing others that they can take action.

Get a job. Freelance. Who F*cking cares...just do something that helps you get somewhere. Or don't.

In the end results are what matters. Not just any results, but getting the results you want. The results you set out for. Do you want to work 9-5? Do you enjoy that? (Rhetorical questions for those who tend to misinterpret things). Can what you're doing bring your definition of freedom to you?

If so then do or keep doing it and help others along the way.

This may fall on deaf ears because belief about what the Fastlane is seems to be strong here.

But belief for belief's sake is stupid.

Are your beliefs useful for you?

This is all that matters.

 

[splok]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned that the original post was a pretty great piece of copy

telling stories and creating that positive emotional experience

Sounds like really good copywriting goals to me...

 

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[Supa]

I-Banking is indisputably shit. It's after 2-3 years you can leave with clients and resources to carve out a hedge fund or other endeavor with credibility in the finance world. I obviously didn't go this route but I'd take it any day over half-assing Freelance copy jobs.

@Supa Yes I did. If I could go back in time I wouldn't have left my job, and no promise of learning copy and applying to endless Freelance copy jobs would change that. @relentlessaction works and has a booming eCommerce biz on the side. This 9-5 you're vilifying only inhibits you as much as you let it. When I was at a 9-5 I was able to blow through work and piss about on whatever else it was I wanted to do. I'd go so far as to say if you're a gifted multitasker you could work while building the business hiring a virtual receptionist to field any calls while working your 9-5. And you get benefits and reliable workflow consistency.

I digress. @MJ DeMarco wrote a great book, it inspired me and many others undeniably. But if I was 17, I'd get a job over this. You can argue semantics all you like. This just doesn't add up to what you promoted in your book. If you're so pro-Fastlane in your book why not inspire all 17 year olds to be this guy rather than compete with a million randos in third world countries for copy jobs?

Copy sucks. Don't learn it. Don't work for others doing it. Am with OP on this.

I think you completely missed the point that @AndrewNC wanted to make in this thread.. For me he wasn't going against the act of copywriting, but against bad and nonsense copywriting.

If it's your opinion that you'd rather work a 9-5 doing some boring work for someone else, instead of replacing that 9-5 with something that can get you some experience in helping others and writing good copy, then that's your opinion. No reason to attack MJ or any other member on here because of that.

 

[Raoul Duke]

I-Banking is indisputably shit. It's after 2-3 years you can leave with clients and resources to carve out a hedge fund or other endeavor with credibility in the finance world. I obviously didn't go this route but I'd take it any day over half-assing Freelance copy jobs.

@Supa Yes I did. If I could go back in time I wouldn't have left my job, and no promise of learning copy and applying to endless Freelance copy jobs would change that. @relentlessaction works and has a booming eCommerce biz on the side. This 9-5 you're vilifying only inhibits you as much as you let it. When I was at a 9-5 I was able to blow through work and piss about on whatever else it was I wanted to do. I'd go so far as to say if you're a gifted multitasker you could work while building the business hiring a virtual receptionist to field any calls while working your 9-5. And you get benefits and reliable workflow consistency.

I digress. @MJ DeMarco wrote a great book, it inspired me and many others undeniably. But if I was 17, I'd get a job over this. You can argue semantics all you like. This just doesn't add up to what you promoted in your book. If you're so pro-Fastlane in your book why not inspire all 17 year olds to be this guy rather than compete with a million randos in third world countries for copy jobs?

Copy sucks. Don't learn it. Don't work for others doing it. Am with OP on this.

“A key point to bear in mind: The value of attentiveness varies in proportion to its object. You’re better off not giving the small things more time than they deserve.” — Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

 

[The Grind]

Isnt copy shifting away a bit from the BS at this point? Just talk like a normal person. You can still incite a emotional response without the typical spam copy like "with just one simple secret". Im sure there are people that fall for that stuff still. But I think more and more people see right through all that junk for what it is, spam speech. Makes the bullshit alarm ring in your head. If I see people writing in that manner about a product it devalues the product to me. I think its more likely they are selling a shitty product with "fancy" copy.

Have a good valuable product. Convey your message by speaking like a normal human and not a internet used car salesman.

Shitty copywriters and people who know nothing about copywriting THINK that copywriting sounds like "spammy BS that will ring the BS alarm in peoples heads".

If copywriting sounds spammy or bs. Then the person who wrote that, is NOT copywriter, they're a wanna be copywriter. Which is why their copy sucks shit.

People who write that spammy nonsense think that "1 simple trick to get rich" is effective copy. And there's so much of that, people think that's what copy is...

Go read the rolls royce ad... you can't tell it's copy, it doesn't have an ounce of "spammyness" or "BS".

P.S. If you don't know what the rolls royce ad is... then you have no business commenting on anything related to copywriting. Because there's only 1 rolls ad that should pop in your head.

P.P.S Have a nice day.

 

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[Digamma]

Shitty copywriters and people who know nothing about copywriting THINK that copywriting sounds like "spammy BS that will ring the BS alarm in peoples heads".

If copywriting sounds spammy or bs. Then the person who wrote that, is NOT copywriter, they're a wanna be copywriter. Which is why their copy sucks shit.

People who write that spammy nonsense think that "1 simple trick to get rich" is effective copy. And there's so much of that, people think that's what copy is...

Go read the rolls royce ad... you can't tell it's copy, it doesn't have an ounce of "spammyness" or "BS".

P.S. If you don't know what the rolls royce ad is... then you have no business commenting on anything related to copywriting. Because there's only 1 rolls ad that should pop in your head.

P.P.S Have a nice day.

You are perfectly right.

I think this was the point @AndrewNC was trying to make: beware "authorities" who write and teach you to write like a Buzzfeed headline.

In fact, he wrote:

Yes, I am not arguing that the principles behind the sales psychology work - they do.... and you can learn those very quickly. (but not always in the internet marketing spammy way).

 

[Growth & Learn]

Copywriting has made my companies over a $1,000,000 in the last 5 years.

But you're right it's worthless.