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Unity Game Engine just exercised their power of control that would destroy Indie Game Scene

A post of a ranting nature...

ZackerySprague

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I'll say this now and give everyone a headsup: A lot of people here use Klaviyo and they are going public -- so be warned; their service is about to go to shit with higher prices, and less value.
That will be a turn of events for the ecom space, everyone loves Klavyio and uses it in their stores.
 
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ZackerySprague

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Man, that story really takes me back to when their game sharing forum was still open. I would spend hours on that site when I was a kid downloading and sifting through projects and uploading my own.
yoyo-games-page-2.jpg

The program really grew and evolved, and the licensing fees and overall cost of operations are a lot more merciful, at least for PC exports. Only problems I see with it are that porting to consoles is a pain in the a$$, and it's really only good for 2D games.

Unity seems to be backpedaling hard, with tons of employees jumping ship, so hopefully things will return to a state of semi-normalcy, as I would hate to see tons of devs have their hard work knocked down over such a backwards business decision. That being said, it seems like the damage to the brand has already been done.
Oh yeah. I learned how to create the 3D game Galaga from a platform called 3DBuzz, which had no association with Uniy the game engine. I was learning C++ at the time in 2010 in class.

Well if they've gone public and the executive team has jump-shipped, they may not be able to reverse the damages they have done to their community.
 

Ravens_Shadow

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A bit off topic but, are you going to compete with Unreal Engine? or are you guys aiming at some specific Niche of games like Sidescrollers etc?
Middleware
 

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EmotionEngine

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I'm not a game developer. I'm a software engineer for financial products, but I think Open Source software is the way to go. What do you think about Godot Engine @EmotionEngine ?

Is this engine developed enough for most games ?

It will probably get a lot of development and attention from the open source community now that Unity is going in this direction.

I haven't tried Godot yet. I'm diving in tomorrow morning to try and get something running. I have assets I've already made. (I do my own art and animation along with coding.) With that said, supposedly the 2D support is apparently on par or better than Unity. It has some work to do on the 3D rendering side. I do 3D modeling as well so 3D will be important.

I think Godot is really going to take off soon though and I'll be contributing some dollars to help them.

From the creator:
tweet.png
 

srodrigo

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Very informed response. I will take a look at MonoGame for sure. Thanks!
I do 3D modeling as well so 3D will be important.
Start with Godot then. MonoGame is excellent for 2D, but I haven't used it for 3D and I'm not sure it is that great for 3D anyway. Do your own research though, I don't have hands-on experience on this area. There are some 3D games made with it Showcase | MonoGame, so maybe it's viable.

I think Godot would cover you. 3D is still being improved, and 2D is excellent. The only grip about Godot is that console support is in the making, with a team of ex-Godot maintainers working on it. They'll offer the code and support as a service, if I'm not mistaken (again, double check yourself because I didn't keep track in the last few months).

Unfortunately, console support has become the main deal-breaker when it comes to choosing a game engine/framework. If I were to do it myself (which would require specific knowledge, probably better to hire some company although it'd be costly), I'd rather not have to port a big engine like Godot. I know of a few folks who built their own thing on C++ with SDL and did the console ports themselves, because their engines were rather small. I guess porting Godot would be a big task even for one console. Or maybe not. These guys must have ported it themselves Cassette Beasts - Adventure. Battle. Transform. and it was a team with only 1 programmer, as far as I know.

To summarise: a pretty bad time to be a game developer, despite so much tech out there. You either have to rely on some company that might screw you up years later, or on open source projects that might have some constraints (specially around consoles support) as most developers aren't rich enough to work altruistically forever. Unless one focuses on PC or Mobile, of course, then things are much simpler. Sharing this in case it helps: I did an unhealthy amount of research, and ended up with 3 options:
  • Godot
  • MonoGame
  • Build my own tiny engine in C/C++
I chose the second option because of Godot's node hierarchy (I prefer ECS architecture, and fits better if the rendering is not based on a node hierarchy). And building my own thing would only make sense if I could add features/customisation that outweights the cons, but I gave up after a while because some features I wanted (ECS with Lua scripting embedded) were quite complicated. Godot provides scripting with a dynamic language too, although I don't like it as much as Lua.

I highly recommend you to check both MonoGame and Godot out, and see which one feels right. They are quite different anyway, and none of them are ideal (not even Unity was, to be honest), so one might just click with you:
  • MonoGame is good if you are mainly into 2D, like code-centric engines, and want to be sure you've got console support.
  • Godot is good if you want to be open to 3D, like editor-centric engines (although I heard that you can ignore the editor and just code in C++, haven't tried this myself though), and don't mind a bit of uncertainty around console support.

Best of luck.
 
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srodrigo

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BTW if there's a actual exodus (which I'm yet to believe) from Unity to Godot, there's a business opportunity working on migrating projects, training, and creating assets.
 

EmotionEngine

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  • MonoGame is good if you are mainly into 2D, like code-centric engines, and want to be sure you've got console support.
  • Godot is good if you want to be open to 3D, like editor-centric engines (although I heard that you can ignore the editor and just code in C++, haven't tried this myself though), and don't mind a bit of uncertainty around console support.

Best of luck.

I looked into MonoGame and it's a framework and not a engine. There's a bunch work that you need to do get stuff working. I'm no John Carmack. I'm an intermediate C# programmer who knows some C++ and Python. I need something quick since I literally do everything myself. (as seen in this thread)

My games will be 2.5D and I think Godot will work for me there. I'm actually looking at it now and got a basic scene running. I have yet to get my sprites, models and animations over though.
 

EmotionEngine

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srodrigo

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I looked into MonoGame and it's a framework and not a engine. There's a bunch work that you need to do get stuff working. I'm no John Carmack. I'm an intermediate C# programmer who knows some C++ and Python. I need something quick since I literally do everything myself. (as seen in this thread)

My games will be 2.5D and I think Godot will work for me there. I'm actually looking at it now and got a basic scene running. I have yet to get my sprites, models and animations over though.
Yeah, frameworks require a bit of work as they give you the basics. There's also MonoGame Extended, and Nez, which provide with more stuff. I'm not Carmack either and I made a small game on MonoGame :D I like it more than Godot, but YMMV. It really depends on what you are productive on. There are basically 2 types of developers, the ones who like just code, and the ones who are happier with an editor. If Godot clicks for you, then that's great! It's a great engine and I believe it'll only get better. Please let us know it goes.
 
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EmotionEngine

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Yeah, frameworks require a bit of work as they give you the basics. There's also MonoGame Extended, and Nez, which provide with more stuff. I'm not Carmack either and I made a small game on MonoGame :D I like it more than Godot, but YMMV. It really depends on what you are productive on. There are basically 2 types of developers, the ones who like just code, and the ones who are happier with an editor. If Godot clicks for you, then that's great! It's a great engine and I believe it'll only get better. Please let us know it goes.
I actually enjoy writing code and creating art assets. Matter in fact a guy at my old job saw what I was able to do and said I'm actually more of a Technical Artist. A person who is proficient in both realms and it's fairly rare. I'm almost done with placing a sprite character I created in along with sprite sheet in Godot.

I'm going to try Monogame today as well. Today is all experiment day and it's not even lunch in Pacific Time yet.
 
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srodrigo

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Damn you @EmotionEngine , now I want to make a game in Godot :happy:

I was trying it out the other day, but it doesn't work very well on my Linux setup. I have a couple of problems with the window and popups. Maybe it's better on Windows.
 

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Damn you @EmotionEngine , now I want to make a game in Godot :happy:

I was trying it out the other day, but it doesn't work very well on my Linux setup. I have a couple of problems with the window and popups. Maybe it's better on Windows.
It should work well on Linux, some of the Godot developers use Linux for development.
 
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loop101

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BTW if there's a actual exodus (which I'm yet to believe) from Unity to Godot, there's a business opportunity working on migrating projects, training, and creating assets.
Google trend over the last year:

1695418942935.png
 

EmotionEngine

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UPDATE:

An open letter to our community

To our community:

I’m Marc Whitten, and I lead Unity Create which includes the Unity engine and editor teams.

I want to start with this: I am sorry.

We should have spoken with more of you and we should have incorporated more of your feedback before announcing our new Runtime Fee policy. Our goal with this policy is to ensure we can continue to support you today and tomorrow, and keep deeply investing in our game engine.

You are what makes Unity great, and we know we need to listen, and work hard to earn your trust. We have heard your concerns, and we are making changes in the policy we announced to address them.

Our Unity Personal plan will remain free and there will be no Runtime Fee for games built on Unity Personal. We will be increasing the cap from $100,000 to $200,000 and we will remove the requirement to use the Made with Unity splash screen.

No game with less than $1 million in trailing 12-month revenue will be subject to the fee.

For those creators on Unity Pro and Unity Enterprise, we are also making changes based on your feedback.

The Runtime Fee policy will only apply beginning with the next LTS version of Unity shipping in 2024 and beyond. Your games that are currently shipped and the projects you are currently working on will not be included – unless you choose to upgrade them to this new version of Unity.

We will make sure that you can stay on the terms applicable for the version of Unity editor you are using – as long as you keep using that version.

For games that are subject to the runtime fee, we are giving you a choice of either a 2.5% revenue share or the calculated amount based on the number of new people engaging with your game each month. Both of these numbers are self-reported from data you already have available. You will always be billed the lesser amount.

We want to continue to build the best engine for creators. We truly love this industry and you are the reason why.

I’d like to invite you to join me for a live fireside chat hosted by Jason Weimann today at 4:00 pm ET/1:00 pm PT, where I will do my best to answer your questions. In the meantime, here are some more details.*

Thank you for caring as deeply as you do, and thank you for giving us hard feedback.

Marc Whitten
 

MJ DeMarco

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UPDATE:

An open letter to our community

To our community:

I’m Marc Whitten, and I lead Unity Create which includes the Unity engine and editor teams.

I want to start with this: I am sorry.

We should have spoken with more of you and we should have incorporated more of your feedback before announcing our new Runtime Fee policy. Our goal with this policy is to ensure we can continue to support you today and tomorrow, and keep deeply investing in our game engine.

You are what makes Unity great, and we know we need to listen, and work hard to earn your trust. We have heard your concerns, and we are making changes in the policy we announced to address them.

Our Unity Personal plan will remain free and there will be no Runtime Fee for games built on Unity Personal. We will be increasing the cap from $100,000 to $200,000 and we will remove the requirement to use the Made with Unity splash screen.

No game with less than $1 million in trailing 12-month revenue will be subject to the fee.

For those creators on Unity Pro and Unity Enterprise, we are also making changes based on your feedback.

The Runtime Fee policy will only apply beginning with the next LTS version of Unity shipping in 2024 and beyond. Your games that are currently shipped and the projects you are currently working on will not be included – unless you choose to upgrade them to this new version of Unity.

We will make sure that you can stay on the terms applicable for the version of Unity editor you are using – as long as you keep using that version.

For games that are subject to the runtime fee, we are giving you a choice of either a 2.5% revenue share or the calculated amount based on the number of new people engaging with your game each month. Both of these numbers are self-reported from data you already have available. You will always be billed the lesser amount.

We want to continue to build the best engine for creators. We truly love this industry and you are the reason why.

I’d like to invite you to join me for a live fireside chat hosted by Jason Weimann today at 4:00 pm ET/1:00 pm PT, where I will do my best to answer your questions. In the meantime, here are some more details.*

Thank you for caring as deeply as you do, and thank you for giving us hard feedback.

Marc Whitten

Does that appease you? What is the general consensus?
 
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EmotionEngine

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Does that appease you? What is the general consensus?
It does not and it appears that most are still upset. This just took a little of the sting out of it.

The runtime fee is still there if you update your Unity version in 2024 (so in essence they still double down) and could flip-flop in 2030 or something, and put your business in jeopardy. They'll find a way to make you update one day. They simply cannot be trusted. Developers should refuse to be little Neville Chamberlains. Also, Unity still didn't address downloads from pirated installs, which last I heard would still cost folks. A person could still take down a company (a financial attack) with automated installs and virtual machines.

All of this does not affect me yet but its the principle of it all and that really pisses me off. You're penalized for success, even if you stumble into it with a viral hit. If you happen to be on the plans that cost a bunch of money per seat (like the Unity Enterprise Plan), you have to pay this Runtime Fee or the 2.5% revenue share. Why should I have to pay you again!? This could set a precedent. What's next, Adobe asking YouTubers for a piece their ad money because their popular video was edited in Premiere?

Personally, I'm still deciding on an engine. I'll make a decision soon and run with it. I recommend others do the same and it looks like the top contender in the industry is Godot. (They need to change that logo though, it's childish and the tool is not.)


[Edit: This is still there too.

"Qualifying customers may be eligible for credits toward the Unity Runtime Fee based on the adoption of Unity services beyond the Editor, such as Unity Gaming Services or Unity LevelPlay mediation for mobile ad-supported games."

They're going the extra mile still to try and kill AppLovin. ]
 
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srodrigo

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It should work well on Linux, some of the Godot developers use Linux for development.
Yeah, but somehow it does weird things. So did Unity, but I was expecting that. Maybe it's my desktop environment (although most software works fine).
 

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Yeah, but somehow it does weird things. So did Unity, but I was expecting that. Maybe it's my desktop environment (although most software works fine).
Did you install it manually or through a package manager? Sometimes manual installs might miss something.
 
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srodrigo

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It does not and it appears that most are still upset. This just took a little of the sting out of it.
I've already seen some people returning to the fold. As I expected, a candy, an apology, and a "I won't beat you again" promise, and all cool. They'll rant again when the next slap comes up, but there'll be another candy, another apology, and another promise. Unity looked doggy as F for years, and now they just confirmed it grandiosely. People sticking with them know what to expect in the future.

Personally, I'm still deciding on an engine. I'll make a decision soon and run with it. I recommend others do the same and it looks like the top contender in the industry is Godot. (They need to change that logo though, it's childish and the tool is not.)
I still think Godot is your best bet (from the open source options; UE otherwise), since you mentioned you aren't keen on coding your own superset on top of a framework, you want 3D capabilities, and sounds like you liked working with the Unity editor.
Just get a quick feeling of whatever tools you are trying out, then research the hell out of the one or two that really resonate, and see if it fits your long-term plans. Then make a decision rather soon and stick to it. At some point, research, even if important to make long-term decisions, becomes action faking :D
 

srodrigo

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Did you install it manually or through a package manager? Sometimes manual installs might miss something.
I just download it from their website and run it as is. It's supposed to work fine that way.
 

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BTW I just wanted to do a quick unsolicited campaign for open source software in general.

I tried out Blender (3D modelling software) at uni over a decade ago. It kind of sucked.
I picked it up 2 years ago, and I was blown away by the quality they achieved. The UI was great, the tool is stable and fast, and it's packed with features. Many people use Blender professionally without regret, it's capable for real.

Similar thing happened to MuseScore (music notation software). It sucked for years and I almost paid 500 bucks for professional solutions.
The latest major version changes this though. It's still not perfect, but I can see many people like me (hobbyists or independent, small musicians) using it. It's got a great sounds library and the UI has been improved greatly; it's usable and looks great. I can create great-looking sheet music for free and without punching the desk in frustration.

Open source web tools have been the foundations of so much software we use. The SaaS space would look vastly different today if it wasn't because of the high quality, free, and customisable source code out there (believe me, some times this saves you a$$). This is probably one of the biggest show cases that it can work if people give their support.

I believe Godot has the potential to become the Blender of game engines. I'm not saying that everyone should bet their business livelihood on it. But at least it should be a strong candidate to consider. It's slowly getting there, and hopefully it'll get more funding and people involved to improve it further.

Goes back to writing proprietary software to sell later. Sight.
 
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BTW I just wanted to do a quick unsolicited campaign for open source software in general.

I tried out Blender (3D modelling software) at uni over a decade ago. It kind of sucked.
I picked it up 2 years ago, and I was blown away by the quality they achieved. The UI was great, the tool is stable and fast, and it's packed with features. Many people use Blender professionally without regret, it's capable for real.
So very true. The 2.8 update is when they changed perception. It was a big deal that actually lived up to the hype. Incredible tool and I use it for my 3D game assets. It's definitely used in professional settings now.
 

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The trend is that every software nowadays is a web-based software, even games. Everything will be written in JavaScript eventually.

Just look at the GitHub stats here: The top programming languages

JavaScript has been the #1 most-used programming language since 2014!

Because you can only use JavaScript in web browsers.

You can now even develop games for web browsers, using free and open source game engines, so that there is no vendor lock-in.

Check the "Atwood’s Law": Jeff Atwood - Wikipedia

“Any application that can be written in JavaScript, will eventually be written in JavaScript.”

Now you can do everything in web browsers. For example Adobe Photoshop has just been released as a web-based version. Yes you can now use Photoshop in your web browser.

Or for example you can even edit videos in your browser (Clipchamp by Microsoft).

And yes there are a lot of browser-based games.
 
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srodrigo

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The trend is that every software nowadays is a web-based software, even games. Everything will be written in JavaScript eventually.

Just look at the GitHub stats here: The top programming languages

JavaScript has been the #1 most-used programming language since 2014!

Because you can only use JavaScript in web browsers.

You can now even develop games for web browsers, using free and open source game engines, so that there is no vendor lock-in.

Check the "Atwood’s Law": Jeff Atwood - Wikipedia

“Any application that can be written in JavaScript, will eventually be written in JavaScript.”

Now you can do everything in web browsers. For example Adobe Photoshop has just been released as a web-based version. Yes you can now use Photoshop in your web browser.

Or for example you can even edit videos in your browser (Clipchamp by Microsoft).

And yes there are a lot of browser-based games.
Not sure about this. I agree with most software being fine on the web. But things aren't that simple even for something like Figma (it works better as a desktop app compared to the web version).

Games are trickier because they need to make use of the hardware without the overhead of a browser. I think some games can be web games, but I doubt that every game will be.

I was actually looking into web games myself a few weeks ago, but I don't see that much interest out there yet.
 

Bence Ur

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Not sure about this. I agree with most software being fine on the web. But things aren't that simple even for something like Figma (it works better as a desktop app compared to the web version).

Games are trickier because they need to make use of the hardware without the overhead of a browser. I think some games can be web games, but I doubt that every game will be.

I was actually looking into web games myself a few weeks ago, but I don't see that much interest out there yet.
Do you need the fanciest graphics to make it a success?

For example chess is a simple game with minimal graphics, but for example look at these two online chess game sites:

They have 280 million visits per month combined. (Chess.com is the 110th most visited website on the whole internet, according to SimilarWeb.)

Ok maybe it's not the best example since chess is a board game, not an action game, but I just want to illustrate that even simple games might be very popular.
 

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