The Antiwork Movement, Lazy or Enlightened?

[Antifragile]

It was an attempt to use an analogy to help say 'why discount an entire subreddit of posts for a FAQ that is probably not read before people post?'.

Further, the analogy was that we shouldn't discount posts from @Antifragile because there may be some value in there.

Further,
View attachment 41211

Good times.

Your condescending tone is a sign of something about you.

So… how do I get you on my ignore list? I can’t seem to find that button. But you’ve earned a spot there, sport.

 

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[BizyDad]

Your condescending tone is a sign of something about you.

So… how do I get you on my ignore list? I can’t seem to find that button. But you’ve earned a spot there, sport.

You want to ignore a moderator? First time I've seen that.

Frankly this post sounds quite condescending and not terribly anti-fragile...

You come off sounding all reasonable here @ZCP, problem is ... some of us did a quick search and found this in FAQ

And this somehow isn't condescending?

Bro, this is a pot and kettle situation and you shot first. Don't be petty when it gets put back on you.

I don’t feel like watching the whole 30 minutes of the OPs video. And I’ve read the whole thread and still don’t get it.

What on earth are you talking about?

You started off your contributions to the thread by asking someone to spoon feed you the content.

After seeing some misinformation in the thread, ZCP suggested people dig a little deeper and provided a beneficial reason for doing so.

You challenged him because a "quick" Google search gave you evidence to support the misinformation, and then you couldn't follow his reasoning.

Did you watch the video? Read the subreddit?

It's not simply about people being lazy, it's about people wanting improved working conditions.

And according to ZCP, there are useful tidbits in those complaints that could help people who have employees be better, more attractive employers. I haven't checked it out myself,but I trust his assessment.

And his thinking didn't seem all that hard to follow, as long as someone was listening to what he had to say instead of looking to argue.

Well, maybe you could stop looking for shortcuts or at least stop arguing from a place of incomplete info?

I usually enjoy your posts, but in this thread you're riding the wrong high horse.

Feel free to ignore me if you must, but from a place of respect, I'm just calling a spade a spade.

 

[SteveO]

@Antifragile and @ZCP are both quality people doing excellent things. Both contribute well to this forum. Perhaps a truce is in order? On to other topics!

I don't like to see friend against friend.

 

[Kak]

@WJK you are hands down the star of this thread. Thank you for your posts.

 

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[Levit]

@Antifragile @ZCP My post is too dumb to fight about...

 

[Antifragile]

@Antifragile and @ZCP are both quality people doing excellent things. Both contribute well to this forum. Perhaps a truce is in order? On to other topics!

I don't like to see friend against friend.

Appreciate the shout out @SteveO

 

[ZCP]

I owe @Antifragile a drink. (I'll dm you)
Maybe @SteveO can facilitate?
I was feeling gamey this morning with all the other chaos I am dealing with. My bad.
Just jacking around a little and one of my championed causes 'look into it before accepting the narrative' was available.

Couple of things we've gotten from that subreddit:
- they need more money to combat inflation. show them how to help the company make more money to help them get more money
- small rewards, like here is a bumper sticker for our record profit quarter, are more insulting than helping
- there is a layer of management in bigger companies that is downright evil to people and their lives. we must root out that evil
- there is power in the masses. let's help them use it for good
- be better than the other employers = have your pick of the workforce

 

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[Guest-5ty5s4]

@ZCP @Antifragile both of y'all are really smart, some of the best on the forum. That exchange played out well and ended with a nice bow on it. I definitely learned from you both.

 

[Kung Fu Steve]

I feel like you guys are looking at a completely different subreddit, too.

Every time I see something on there it has a lot to do with food service and extremely poor leadership and management.

Bartenders, servers, cooks, dishwashers who are just being abused through a really rough time for that industry.

It looks to me like there are plenty of creepy people standing on the sideline working decent jobs who like to complain about other people's situations and scream "corporate greed!" to match some of their political views.

But most seem to be servers working 90 hour weeks and being called in on their one day off "OR ELSE" and them quitting on the spot.

The amazon delivery thing comes to mind. What an absolute shit show of people just not being human beings. We can get our packages tomorrow. It'll be okay.

 

[ZCP]

update ..... have messaged @Antifragile . I definitely owe him a nice drink!
have also just done a phone call with @thechosen1 , great dude with a bright future!!
also just sent a bunch of trash talk and love to @Kung Fu Steve

TLDR; start making some connections with people on the forum. Pick up the phone! GROW this community and HELP each other.

 

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[WJK]

I also was surprised to see that, I genuinely thought I might see more people starting businesses but sadly I couldn't find many examples of that there. The funny thing about it is, it does seem to be anti-capitalist without even having a strong enough opinion on anything to even call it communist/socialist, they don't really have any solid opinions on what action to take in any direction.

Starting a business is hard work and a lot of sacrifices. It takes a huge dose of daily dogged determination. The people who are sitting out this moment are sure NOT part of that mindset. They are waiting around for that magical sugar daddy (or mom) to knock on their door -- hand them the perfect low-stress job, a lovely home in the right neighborhood, their very own love-smitten mate, a perpetually high credit score, and an endless pile of cash to support it all... because they deserve it! Doesn't that sound reasonable to you?

 

[Kevin88660]

I feel like you guys are looking at a completely different subreddit, too.

Every time I see something on there it has a lot to do with food service and extremely poor leadership and management.

Bartenders, servers, cooks, dishwashers who are just being abused through a really rough time for that industry.

It looks to me like there are plenty of creepy people standing on the sideline working decent jobs who like to complain about other people's situations and scream "corporate greed!" to match some of their political views.

But most seem to be servers working 90 hour weeks and being called in on their one day off "OR ELSE" and them quitting on the spot.

The amazon delivery thing comes to mind. What an absolute shit show of people just not being human beings. We can get our packages tomorrow. It'll be okay.

Over the years I have observed that people who are really in bad situations do not have the luxury to quit their job.

Think of the typical couple working 2 jobs each in retail, anticipating their second child that is coming. They cannot afford to quit without a paycheck for two months.

Most of the cyber warriors crying against corporate greed and can consider quitting jobs are a different class to begin with. They are the “neither here or there” class. They are rich enough to have fall backs on (on their parents usually) to at least live for months without a paycheck, but not rich enough to do this forever. They are usually single without too much financial commitment and liability. They think their college degree deserve more.

Their solution to the problem is bitching online and not working. Learn a trade to be an electrician? No I am too “educated” for that. Go into real estate sales? No I cannot get rejected by people. Start your own business? Oh No it is too risky!

 

[2dads]

@ZCP - I only found the subreddit the other day and when I read this I went back to check if it was the same sub.

Lot of people doing it tough, I am all for finding your worth - alot of people been taking the P#ss - employers and employees

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

Bartenders, servers, cooks, dishwashers who are just being abused through a really rough time for that industry.

It looks to me like there are plenty of creepy people standing on the sideline working decent jobs who like to complain about other people's situations and scream "corporate greed!" to match some of their political views.

Then why not a Subreddit that just says "My job and employer sucks"?

Ah, yes, because that wouldn't promote their political ideology as an extra added bonus.

Everything these days always comes down to the same, stale political agenda.

 

[Kung Fu Steve]

Everything these days always comes down to the same, stale political agenda.

Yeah. Sucks. No fun.

 

[Guest-5ty5s4]

Then why not a Subreddit that just says "My job and employer sucks"?

Ah, yes, because that wouldn't promote their political ideology as an extra added bonus.

Everything these days always comes down to the same, stale political agenda.

If only they knew how it really worked, they would understand debt and inflation and realize that this ideology is bunk.

Regardless, the whole thing is a waste. I guess there is a little to learn from those ranting about their jobs, but overall , they’re lucky to have time and the devices to write all that crap on Reddit.

 

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[chabs]

Then why not a Subreddit that just says "My job and employer sucks"?

Ah, yes, because that wouldn't promote their political ideology as an extra added bonus.

Everything these days always comes down to the same, stale political agenda.

“Antiwork” sounds a lot more provocative and implies choosing a side/team. “My job and employer sucks” sounds like a whiney thing that might struggle to get much interest whilst people share shit experiences.

The caveat is that anti-work then has a muddle up of people complaining about shit working conditions and treatment, with generally lazy people blaming everything but themselves for all the problems in the world.

As someone who loves the grind, it can still get too much..

And the reality is we live in a world where Costco and Amazon simultaneously exist and are both profitable.

Costco = very good experience for employees (low turnover)

Amazon = very mixed experiences for employees (high turnover)

A company will do well if it provides massive value.

However it can choose to be like Costco , and leave a good taste in peoples mouths, especially the employees.

Or it can be controversial like Amazon, Walmart, etc.

People just need to understand each other and not necessarily take an absolute side on literally every issue..

Unfortunately most business people will just dismiss the whole discussion, blaming people as lazy and entitled. The reality is there would be less people energised to argue for anti-work if we had more Costco’s and less Walmart’s

 

[socaldude]

Well it’s really not surprising. These people have 20+ years of thorough socialization giving them overblown expectations about what is entitled to them. Not to mention academia.

My opinion Is that its a tricky problem. One that has plagued economic history for centuries. They outsourced American manufacturing so shareholders can make more money then want to push socialism to solve the problem. So it’s partly right and wrong. Sometimes the solution is not so obvious. It’s a complex problem.

 

[Guest-5ty5s4]

Well it’s really not surprising. These people have 20+ years of thorough socialization giving them overblown expectations about what is entitled to them. Not to mention academia.

My opinion Is that its a tricky problem. One that has plagued economic history for centuries. They outsourced American manufacturing so shareholders can make more money then want to push socialism to solve the problem. So it’s partly right and wrong. Sometimes the solution is not so obvious. It’s a complex problem.

I’d argue that if we never got into the fake money printing, we wouldn’t be having conversations about socialism.

 

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[socaldude]

we wouldn’t be having conversations about socialism

Well, it does appear to maximize control if you can convince the masses that you have somthing they need or that they need to be saved. Despite the fact that if you look closer its a scam and a ruse. And money printing sounds like the perfect tool.

But all throughout economic history that has been the central issue. Who should own what? How is the wealth pie divided? Thats how revolutions and revolts started. People felt economic "injustice".

It's a complex problem to solve. But it just appears to be the laws of nature. You build something like a building and a hurricane comes and destroys it. Its like a cycle or evolution.

 

[Guest-5ty5s4]

Well, it does appear to maximize control if you can convince the masses that you have somthing they need or that they need to be saved. Despite the fact that if you look closer its a scam and a ruse. And money printing sounds like the perfect tool.

But all throughout economic history that has been the central issue. Who should own what? How is the wealth pie divided? Thats how revolutions and revolts started. People felt economic "injustice".

It's a complex problem to solve. But it just appears to be the laws of nature. You build something like a building and a hurricane comes and destroys it. Its like a cycle or evolution.

issue is, money printing causes massive inflation, and the poor unsuspecting populace turns to socialism as things get more expensive. They don't get it. It's all over history. Same shit.

Oh well. Get rich like Hugo Stinnes, the "Inflation King" :

Inflation : Who was Hugo 'The Inflation King of 1920's Germany' Stinnes?

What’s Going on with Money Printing?At the time of writing this article, newly minted president Joe Biden has announced another stimulus package in the amount of $1.9 Trillion dollars. Trillion with a Capital T! A Trillion dollars (let alone almost 2) is a freaking lot of money. A Trillion...

www.wealthplaybook.ca

 

[Antifragile]

@thechosen1 and @Kak
Gents, genuinely looking to learn some new stuff.
You seem to say that if FED didn't have the power to increase money in circulation, we would not have economic problems of today. But before the abolishments of the Gold Standard - there was the 1930s depression! It was horrific. It came after the Roaring 20s of excess.
Educate me, how would it be better if there was no monetary policy tools?

 

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[Guest-5ty5s4]

@thechosen1 and @Kak
Gents, genuinely looking to learn some new stuff.
You seem to say that if FED didn't have the power to increase money in circulation, we would not have economic problems of today. But before the abolishments of the Gold Standard - there was the 1930s depression! It was horrific. It came after the Roaring 20s of excess.
Educate me, how would it be better if there was no monetary policy tools?

I'm not an expert, and sorry for acting like I am. This is ALL opinion, based on what I've read, people I've talked to, videos I've watched, books, and observations.

I *believe* (and I could be wrong) that the way they have been handling monetary policy has caused problems.

That's not to say that they shouldn't handle it at all. I'm not even convinced that the gold standard would work today (sorry @Kak ) - I'm just saying that the massive amounts of printing and inflation to prop up the economy has been pretty bad, considering the high national debt, already pretty high levels of taxation, and budget deficits.

The Great Depression... I'm not entirely sure on the causes, but I will tell you that the US was in a period of deflation in the late 1800's but the economy was growing.

To me it seems apparent that when you pump money into an economy, that causes inflation, especially when it comes from borrowed dollars for things like healthcare, real estate, student loans. You can even see the data where those things outpace other costs over the last few decades.

And that's all that's backing up our dollar today - the debt of average Americans and the fact they must pay it back, plus their taxes.

What we really need are more responsible people handling monetary policy, I think. But again, I'm not one of the "experts."

(also, reference Venezuela and the German inflation 100 years ago, it's pretty well documented)

 

[Kak]

@thechosen1 and @Kak
Gents, genuinely looking to learn some new stuff.
You seem to say that if FED didn't have the power to increase money in circulation, we would not have economic problems of today. But before the abolishments of the Gold Standard - there was the 1930s depression! It was horrific. It came after the Roaring 20s of excess.
Educate me, how would it be better if there was no monetary policy tools?

The FED was established, drumroll... In 1913!

Just because they had reserve gold didn't mean that they couldn't create bubbles. The roaring 20's bubble was created by a credit expansion.

 

[Kak]

I'm not even convinced that the gold standard would work today (sorry @Kak )

It absolutely would work. I'm shocked that anyone would think we "need" bureaucrat controlled currency to make things work right.

So the dollar, pegged to gold, would be super valuable... So? We just make and spend less of them.

 

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[Guest-5ty5s4]

It absolutely would work. I'm shocked that anyone would think we "need" bureaucrat controlled currency to make things work right.

So the dollar, pegged to gold, would be super valuable... So? We just make and spend less of them.

Hey, I'd like to see them try. It would certainly be more stable, based on every single graph I've ever seen of the US economy's history.

 

[Antifragile]

@Kak can you elaborate how you see the currency world working then?

If you say FED caused the Roaring 20s, which led to excessive credit spending, which then led to 30s Depression, which later led to abolishment of Gold Standard and the upward cycle for the next ... well, until now I guess.

Thought experiment. Walk me through it. No FED. What does that world look like?

Edit: spelling

 

[Kak]

@Kak can you elaborate how you see the currency world working then?

If you say FED caused the Roaring 20s, which led to excessive credit spending, which then led to 30s Depression, which later led to abolishment of Gold Standard and the upward cycle for the next ... well, until now I guess.

Thought experiment. Walk me through it. No FED. What does that world look like?

Edit: spelling

Get listening! Text me to argue.

What Would Life Be Like Without The FED? - Ep 250

Understanding Our Money System - Ep 154

What Happened In 1971? (Part 1) Not Capitalism's Fault - Ep 127

What Happened In 1971? (Part 2) The Gold Standard - Ep 128



Briefly, things would get cheaper, measured in work, over time. An amplified version of what we see in tech today across most industries. As people get better and better at producing things more and more efficiently, they should cost less and less… But for some reason they don’t… How strange…

Basically the government really wants no one to think about that too deeply. It’s a tax.

 

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[WJK]

@thechosen1 and @Kak
Gents, genuinely looking to learn some new stuff.
You seem to say that if FED didn't have the power to increase money in circulation, we would not have economic problems of today. But before the abolishments of the Gold Standard - there was the 1930s depression! It was horrific. It came after the Roaring 20s of excess.
Educate me, how would it be better if there was no monetary policy tools?

Check out the credit cycle. It's longer than the normal business cycle. The last time it really bottomed out was in the 1930s depression -- and here we are again maybe...

 

[Kak]

Check out the credit cycle. It's longer than the normal business cycle. The last time it really bottomed out was in the 1930s depression -- and here we are again maybe...

It’s longer and tremendously more violent. 08 was just a taste. We are in an epic dead cat bounce.