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The Antiwork Movement, Lazy or Enlightened?

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Levit

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Has anyone else here come into contact with the Antiwork movement?
It's something I came across recently while watching this video:

Antiwork is one of Reddit's fastest-growing communities.
Part of me was actually expecting to see people that were taking control of their finances and starting businesses etc, but as far as I can tell it's mainly people boycotting the idea of work completely and largely the entire capitalist system, crying for the establishment of a socialist state.

Maybe my assessment is misinformed, but what's your opinion on it? It's clearly a manifestation of much of the same frustration I think a lot of people here have felt, it just seems they have responded to that differently.
 
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Total communists. I have gone over this on my show. The root of work. How if we had no one to trade with, and no specialization of labor, that we would work incredibly harder on building our own shelter, finding our own food and largely fending for ourselves.

Work to survive is something every living being has to do. We just do it better with capitalism. Which is really just voluntary cooperation on a grand scale.
 
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Simon Angel

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Total communists. I have gone over this on my show. The root of work. How if we had no one to trade with, and no specialization of labor, that we would work incredibly harder on building our own shelter, finding our own food and largely fending for ourselves.

Work to survive is something every living being bas to do. We just do it better with capitalism.

I used to be just like the antiwork folks. Broke, in debt, and couldn't keep a job even if I had a gun to my head. I also speculated that maybe socialism would mean I'd be better off. Especially since I live in a country that was closely allied with the USSR and having heard the "Back in my day.." stories from my grandparents.

After figuring out how to add value and getting paid by ecstatic clients, my tone changed. Actually, my whole worldview changed.

Thank god for capitalism. Or, well, the guy that created it.
 

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I've been watching this movement the last 6 - 12 months. It's absolutely fascinating to me. Especially that subreddit. A lot of people that don't understand that their pay is closely related to the value they provide their company (or provide to anyone in society). They don't understand that their skills are currently in huge supply, or not difficult to train, and that they are not particularly unique or valuable to their company. They believe they should receive certain wages just because they've "done their time" rather than because they're paid for a specific action, job or output.

At the same time, I feel very very sorry for these people. Why? Because this movement is just going to drive the demand for automation even more. As this movement continues to grow and people demand more for providing less (doing less work, getting paid more), businesses are going to be forced to turn to cheaper forms of labor. Do you know how current AI is progressing? It's insane how much better they are getting at replacing jobs. There are now companies springing up that go into big companies and automate 20-30% of their labor force. Boom, replacing swathes of people with code. As the antiwork movement grows and employers are faced with a change in the market (towards lower supply of labour) they're going to turn to cheaper forms which will be automation. The automation is coming anyway, but this movement is accelerating it, in my humble opinion.

So while these people think they're making a big change, it's going to result in a very sad situation where people will find that they have very minimal ways to add value to society (in the way we currently structure work).
 
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Devilery

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That community is something I hate with a passion. Miserable people pushing each other further down the path of misery, and anyone who offers a legitimate solution is "a corporate slave workaholic who is only driven by materialistic consumption".

Degenerates (some due to unfortunate upbringing, tragedies, etc.) who cannot grasp the simple concept of - create and share more value, get more value in return, with "value" being subjective and fluid.
 

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Has anyone else here come into contact with the Antiwork movement?
It's something I came across recently while watching this video:

Antiwork is one of Reddit's fastest-growing communities.
Part of me was actually expecting to see people that were taking control of their finances and starting businesses etc, but as far as I can tell it's mainly people boycotting the idea of work completely and largely the entire capitalist system, crying for the establishment of a socialist state.

Maybe my assessment is misinformed, but what's your opinion on it? It's clearly a manifestation of much of the same frustration I think a lot of people here have felt, it just seems they have responded to that differently.
I do have some things in common with the antiwork community - I don't want a boss, I don't want to work in a job I hate for the next 40 years so I can retire comfortably, I want to control my own time.

However, they are solving that problem in the wrong way like you suggested. If they want to get out of the rat race then they could start a business or even go down the FIRE route. I know FIRE gets criticised on here and rightfully so but it's better than doing a 9-5 with a bad attitude then complaining each evening on reddit with other slackers. At least the FIRE people work hard and have goals. I find the antiwork subreddit entitled, lazy and aimless.
 
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Levit

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Total communists. I have gone over this on my show. The root of work. How if we had no one to trade with, and no specialization of labor, that we would work incredibly harder on building our own shelter, finding our own food and largely fending for ourselves.

Work to survive is something every living being has to do. We just do it better with capitalism.
Definitely agree with that. The only caveat being personally I think a degree of socialism can work, being from the UK I think the NHS is actually fantastic and it's a shame to see it becoming more privatised.

To me, the ideal society is one of altruism produced through free and fair (as possible) capitalism but with some universal fallbacks for things like healthcare so that people aren't afraid of taking risks like starting a business.

Which episode do you discuss it in? I'd love to checkout your show
 
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Levit

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I've been watching this movement the last 6 - 12 months. It's absolutely fascinating to me. Especially that subreddit. A lot of people that don't understand that their pay is closely related to the value they provide their company (or provide to anyone in society). They don't understand that their skills are currently in huge supply, or not difficult to train, and that they are not particularly unique or valuable to their company. They believe they should receive certain wages just because they've "done their time" rather than because they're paid for a specific action, job or output.

At the same time, I feel very very sorry for these people. Why? Because this movement is just going to drive the demand for automation even more. As this movement continues to grow and people demand more for providing less (doing less work, getting paid more), businesses are going to be forced to turn to cheaper forms of labor. Do you know how current AI is progressing? It's insane how much better they are getting at replacing jobs. There are now companies springing up that go into big companies and automate 20-30% of their labor force. Boom, replacing swathes of people with code. As the antiwork movement grows and employers are faced with a change in the market (towards lower supply of labour) they're going to turn to cheaper forms which will be automation. The automation is coming anyway, but this movement is accelerating it, in my humble opinion.

So while these people think they're making a big change, it's going to result in a very sad situation where people will find that they have very minimal ways to add value to society (in the way we currently structure work).
That's a really interesting take on it. I also noticed that same aspect of it—not realising that their skills are in huge supply and that's why they aren't highly paid. It seems like there is some lacking when it comes to economic education these days.

What do you think this means for entrepreneurs/fastlaners starting out today? It seems to me like a good thing overall, not to sound like too much of a heartless capitalist, but things like this always seem to open opportunities to capitalise on general ignorance and be a part of the automation you mentioned.
 

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They believe they should receive certain wages just because they've "done their time" rather than because they're paid for a specific action, job or output.
I'd accept that this is ... crazy, but that is what people are taught growing up. Of course they cry foul. In that whole construct the entrepreneur has to be the special case ... the system has to work for the employees as well - and that is no longer the case.

It is hard to say capiatlism is great when you could live off a paycheck for 20 years and suddenly you earn pocket money because you are now rented to the company you worked for ... but through employment agencies.

They still need you to work for them, they just want to pay less and the whole legislation changes to make you a criminal if you want to opt out because you can no longer pay your bills like this.

Capitalist greed has pushed bullshit socialism ideologies into overdrive.
 
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I don’t feel like watching the whole 30 minutes of the OPs video. And I’ve read the whole thread and still don’t get it.

What’s the premise? Do these people quit and live on the street? Or are they just slacking on the job and then bitch about it to each other? What’s the scoop here?
 

WJK

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Has anyone else here come into contact with the Antiwork movement?
It's something I came across recently while watching this video:

Antiwork is one of Reddit's fastest-growing communities.
Part of me was actually expecting to see people that were taking control of their finances and starting businesses etc, but as far as I can tell it's mainly people boycotting the idea of work completely and largely the entire capitalist system, crying for the establishment of a socialist state.

Maybe my assessment is misinformed, but what's your opinion on it? It's clearly a manifestation of much of the same frustration I think a lot of people here have felt, it just seems they have responded to that differently.
I think it is more fundamental than what is being presented. For me, it has several parts:

1. For the younger set, I think they lack fire in their bellies. To me, this is many times rooted in them having no understanding, and internalizing, the concept of cause and effect. I do this and that happens... Being expected to perform and produce is a first for them. Why? Because -- When they were kids, they got a prize for showing up and participating. No one won or lost. No one's feelings were hurt. They expected the world to give them a "safe place" to keep them emotionally isolated. None of their actions to date have had dire consequences. They never went hungry or without anything. And now we expect them to act like a grownup and do the hard stuff? (I was tougher when I was in the 5th grade than a lot of these young people are as adults!) And they're very verbal about their demands. They howl loudly when they get uncomfortable. They've been playing the game all their lives just as they were taught to do it.

To me, it is a matter of stunted growth through a lack of real-world experiences. I believe that the whole reason for parenting is to foster and help create an independent, self-directed adult -- not a failure to thrive, wining little wimp!

2. For the older adult, I see this trend as an on-set of a mid-life crisis type of moment. Many of these people are waking to discover that the working for 40 years thing and then retiring is a terrible hoax. The idea of keeping up with the Jones -- by buying stuff that can't afford and don't really use -- on credit cards that makes them slaves to the financial industry -- is a dead-end street. What happens when they discover that it all means nothing? Can they find another way to make their lives work? They too have been playing it just like they were taught to do it in their youth.

3. And then there are those idiots who think that the government is going to take care of them out of the goodness of its heart. The welfare system here in the USA has made more slaves than the South ever thought about making. These people are stuck in a system that holds them in poverty for the rest of their lives. They can't work and get ahead -- they'll lose that monthly deposit that they depend on... Women can't have a husband and partner in life. Men are relegated to being a "baby daddy" -- which ruins their lives because the State hunts them down for child support. payments to support "the system". The women must raise their kids on their own. They are given just enough funds to barely make it, but never enough to be comfortable. They must learn to grovel just right to stay on the programs. That monthly deposit is the velvet handcuffs that hold them down, while it supports an army of social workers and politicians.

So, what's my answer? Most of these people will go back to work when their money runs out and they are faced with going hungry and being homeless. Many have shot themselves in the foot and must start over again. Some will pivot and take on a different job from the one that they had -- if they have truly had an awakening. A bunch of the young kids will end up at home with their ever-helpful helicopter parents. Again. They'll be thinking about going back to school for another useless degree -- and wracking up more student loan debts... Very few of these people who quit their jobs will successfully start their own business and join the few us out there that are slugging it out every day.

PS -- I realized after I wrote this that I'm just NOT very politically correct. Sorry if I offended some people -- or am I really sorry? I'm not so sure...
 

Raoul Duke

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They need a swift kick to the a$$.
 
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WJK

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AKA hungry and homeless!
I just read an article by VOX about this issue. They were calling the Covid 19 and climate change an apocalypse. The premise of the article was that our world is over, so why should we continue to work? Uh? I know that the one thing that we can count on -- is change. And change does NOT equal an apocalypse. Talk about being silly, over-the-top dramatic! This is more of a religion rather than being just a political position.
 

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Has anyone else here come into contact with the Antiwork movement?
It's something I came across recently while watching this video:

Antiwork is one of Reddit's fastest-growing communities.
Part of me was actually expecting to see people that were taking control of their finances and starting businesses etc, but as far as I can tell it's mainly people boycotting the idea of work completely and largely the entire capitalist system, crying for the establishment of a socialist state.

Maybe my assessment is misinformed, but what's your opinion on it? It's clearly a manifestation of much of the same frustration I think a lot of people here have felt, it just seems they have responded to that differently.
It is attracting people who can afford not to work , and they think the effort is not worth the money, but do not know anyway better.

This is a significant minority.
 
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Levit

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I don’t feel like watching the whole 30 minutes of the OPs video. And I’ve read the whole thread and still don’t get it.

What’s the premise? Do these people quit and live on the street? Or are they just slacking on the job and then bitch about it to each other? What’s the scoop here?
No worries, it's a long vid.

Interestingly the whole premise of the antiwork movement is what I was struggling to figure out myself.
I genuinely thought maybe a whole new generation of people had stumbled upon something akin to what MJ talks about in his books, but sadly it seems not.

They have realised they are trapped in a system that is keeping them trapped and poor, but they still fail to figure out any constructive way to combat that. Basically, they are just dropping out of work with no plans, rejecting society while still wanting all of its benefits.

Very surprising how shortsighted all these people in their 20s/30s appear to be.

I'd say WJKs assessment is pretty accurate.
 

Kevin88660

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No worries, it's a long vid.

Interestingly the whole premise of the antiwork movement is what I was struggling to figure out myself.
I genuinely thought maybe a whole new generation of people had stumbled upon something akin to what MJ talks about in his books, but sadly it seems not.

They have realised they are trapped in a system that is keeping them trapped and poor, but they still fail to figure out any constructive way to combat that. Basically, they are just dropping out of work with no plans, rejecting society while still wanting all of its benefits.

Very surprising how shortsighted all these people in their 20s/30s appear to be.

I'd say WJKs assessment is pretty accurate.
It is a complex psychology and circumstance.

Not everyone is the same but the typical profile goes like this.

1)Hate corporate lifestyle where the return on their effort is perceived to be low
2)No promotion or pay rise in sight because the positions are filled by “boomers who refuse to retire”.
3)But also have boomer parents whom they can live with and subsidise their lifestyle not to work

There is kind of this anti-boomer political ideology among the anti-work youth in U.S. They believed that boomers are born in the best time in term of job opportunity, started the reckless national debt and leave the young today in shitty situation. And they are never going to out earn the boomers’ capital appreciation on their real estates and stocks portfolio with their meagre salary. And therefore this anti-work attitude is a “rebellion”.

I saw them posting all these toxic political ideas when doing research on penny stocks on reddit. It is same group of people spreading same hate.
 
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WJK

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It is a complex psychology and circumstance.

Not everyone is the same but the typical profile goes like this.

1)Hate corporate lifestyle where the return on their effort is perceived to be low
2)No promotion or pay rise in sight because the positions are filled by “boomers who refuse to retire”.
3)But also have boomer parents whom they can live with and subsidise their lifestyle not to work
What? They are expected to work and take care of themselves? Pay their own bills? Be a responsible adult? What an unfair imposition on these poor, spoiled, little darlings!
 
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Antifragile

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No worries, it's a long vid.

Interestingly the whole premise of the antiwork movement is what I was struggling to figure out myself.
I genuinely thought maybe a whole new generation of people had stumbled upon something akin to what MJ talks about in his books, but sadly it seems not.

They have realised they are trapped in a system that is keeping them trapped and poor, but they still fail to figure out any constructive way to combat that. Basically, they are just dropping out of work with no plans, rejecting society while still wanting all of its benefits.

Very surprising how shortsighted all these people in their 20s/30s appear to be.

I'd say WJKs assessment is pretty accurate.

Thank you for explaining. I was genuinely curious and even googled it. Turns out they are anti-capitalist. It is back to the concepts of hating the rich.

When the wealth distribution gets too wide, we get civil wars. Think of the French Revolution. Prior to that there were only two ways to get rich in France: 1) born into wealth or b) married into wealth.

But people forget that to be able to create wealth for yourself (when you are this frustrated and want to quit a job) requires free markets and capitalism. It's the opposite of what some young folks think. The "American Dream" isn't to sit on a couch in mommy's basement and collect a handout from the government to buy bulk socks. The dream is to create, to work, to do. The dream is based in action, not inaction.
 

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Seems like you guys should actually visit that subreddit. May not be what you think. I don't think you understand how bad it has gotten to work some places. The new influx to that sub has shifted it from lazy people bitching to people actually being mistreated and a LOT of good info on what your competition is doing with job offers and recruiting / interviewing.
Suggest you take a spin before jumping behind yelling communism. :)

Have learned several good things that we have implemented in the business to do better for our staff so they can do better for us.
 

Levit

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Thank you for explaining. I was genuinely curious and even googled it. Turns out they are anti-capitalist. It is back to the concepts of hating the rich.

When the wealth distribution gets too wide, we get civil wars. Think of the French Revolution. Prior to that there were only two ways to get rich in France: 1) born into wealth or b) married into wealth.

But people forget that to be able to create wealth for yourself (when you are this frustrated and want to quit a job) requires free markets and capitalism. It's the opposite of what some young folks think. The "American Dream" isn't to sit on a couch in mommy's basement and collect a handout from the government to buy bulk socks. The dream is to create, to work, to do. The dream is based in action, not inaction.
Definitely. This springs to mind...
oh no.JPG
 
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Levit

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Seems like you guys should actually visit that subreddit. May not be what you think. I don't think you understand how bad it has gotten to work some places. The new influx to that sub has shifted it from lazy people bitching to people actually being mistreated and a LOT of good info on what your competition is doing with job offers and recruiting / interviewing.
Suggest you take a spin before jumping behind yelling communism. :)

Have learned several good things that we have implemented in the business to do better for our staff so they can do better for us.
I think it's a great observation that some value can come from this in us learning what the main frustrations are of employees and trying to remedy those in our own businesses.

That said some of these are frustrations at the structure of society, some misplaced and some I totally agree with and are in fact a big part of the reason I'm here.

Personally, I don't think the general consensus here has been to cry communism, I think it's spotting a flaw in their logic about expectations vs reality—there's a lot of expectation of being highly paid for low demand, low skill, low-value work on there from what I can see.

I also was surprised to see that, I genuinely thought I might see more people starting businesses but sadly I couldn't find many examples of that there. The funny thing about it is, it does seem to be anti-capitalist without even having a strong enough opinion on anything to even call it communist/socialist, they don't really have any solid opinions on what action to take in any direction.
 

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Seems like you guys should actually visit that subreddit. May not be what you think. I don't think you understand how bad it has gotten to work some places. The new influx to that sub has shifted it from lazy people bitching to people actually being mistreated and a LOT of good info on what your competition is doing with job offers and recruiting / interviewing.
Suggest you take a spin before jumping behind yelling communism. :)

Have learned several good things that we have implemented in the business to do better for our staff so they can do better for us.

You come off sounding all reasonable here @ZCP, problem is ... some of us did a quick search and found this in FAQ:


Frequently Asked Questions​

Why do you want to end work?​

Because the modern day workplace is one where you are expected to work despite your own individual needs or desires. Work puts the needs and desires of managers and corporations above and beyond workers, often to the point of abuse through being overworked and underpaid.

You guys are just lazy, right?​

Some of us are lazy, sure. What's wrong with that?

Why "antiwork"?​

Anti-work has long been a slogan of many anarchists, communists and other radicals.
 
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As a guilty pleasure I’ve occasionally read some of the threads on Antiwork. Most of the stuff doesn’t seem to be antiwork, but just an employee leaving an abusive/unreasonable manager (often without notice). And writing a spectacular post about it. Many of the posts mention they’ll look for a new job, or already have one.

Seems more like it’s a celebration of freedom. They don’t like their current boss. So they quit and look for something new. This means undesirable jobs will get automated. Great. Let people find more valuable avenues for work. Or let companies improve the desirability of the jobs.
 

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You come off sounding all reasonable here @ZCP, problem is ... some of us did a quick search and found this in FAQ:


Frequently Asked Questions​

Why do you want to end work?​

Because the modern day workplace is one where you are expected to work despite your own individual needs or desires. Work puts the needs and desires of managers and corporations above and beyond workers, often to the point of abuse through being overworked and underpaid.

You guys are just lazy, right?​

Some of us are lazy, sure. What's wrong with that?

Why "antiwork"?​

Anti-work has long been a slogan of many anarchists, communists and other radicals.
what does this have to do with the actual content?

An example:
We can still glean information and helpful hints, even if the post is labeled @Antifragile , right?
What would your FAQ have to do with your content and posts that happen later? What if they no longer matched? Should we disregard what you say now because of something you said earlier?
 

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what does this have to do with the actual content?

An example:
We can still glean information and helpful hints, even if the post is labeled @Antifragile , right?
What would your FAQ have to do with your content and posts that happen later? What if they no longer matched? Should we disregard what you say now because of something you said earlier?

What on earth are you talking about?
 
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ZCP

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It was an attempt to use an analogy to help say 'why discount an entire subreddit of posts for a FAQ that is probably not read before people post?'.

Further, the analogy was that we shouldn't discount posts from @Antifragile because there may be some value in there.

Further,
1640028524289.png

Good times. :)
 

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As a guilty pleasure I’ve occasionally read some of the threads on Antiwork. Most of the stuff doesn’t seem to be antiwork, but just an employee leaving an abusive/unreasonable manager (often without notice). And writing a spectacular post about it. Many of the posts mention they’ll look for a new job, or already have one.

Seems more like it’s a celebration of freedom. They don’t like their current boss. So they quit and look for something new. This means undesirable jobs will get automated. Great. Let people find more valuable avenues for work. Or let companies improve the desirability of the jobs.
Absolutely, no problem with that, it's great to see people taking more control over their lives.
It's more stuff like this that makes me cringe...
1640028609866.png
 

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Must Read Books...

Explore books recommended by MJ DeMarco and other members of the Fastlane entrepreneurial community.
Fastlane Bookstore
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