So Simple... It's Beautiful

[Choate]

I hope you're not going to do what I think you're gonna do with those heated paper clips.

I don't know why, but I lost it reading this.

 

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[biophase]

Did you build a prototype yet?

 

[KLaw]

Did you build a prototype yet?

Not yet but that is my number 1 priority. After seeing my sketch, do you have any suggestions for the prototype?

 

[Eric Phillips]

Easy Bake Oven. Not sure how long it would last, but the new model heats up to 375.

http://bakingbites.com/2011/09/easy-bake-oven-gets-a-new-look-new-heating-element/

 

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[biophase]

Not yet but that is my number 1 priority. After seeing my sketch, do you have any suggestions for the prototype?

To be honest, I would have already made 2-3 prototypes. You have so many options to start with.

 

[KLaw]

To be honest, I would have already made 2-3 prototypes. You have so many options to start with.

I can knock out 2 - 3 protos but why? I know the product works. I need a legit proto that looks good and fit-form-function well. im ready to put this in the hands of actual customers.

 

[biophase]

Because you need proof of concept first. Then you make a prototype out of the best one.

Your prototype has nothing to do with the product working. You need to know if your prototype can make your product.

 

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[KLaw]

Because you need proof of concept first. Then you make a prototype out of the best one.

Your prototype has nothing to do with the product working. You need to know if your prototype can make your product.

Sorry if I am being a little slow as to your reasoning here. First of all, thanks for your feedback and getting engaged. I really appreciate it.

I can have a proto done by tomorrow - maybe. But it will look like a homemade POS. It will function and perform the intended purposes (remember i am only talking about heating up clips to 375 degrees). I cant take that to potential customers to trial it - do you know what I mean?

 

[Justin.p]

Weirdest. Thread. Ever.

The fact is there are a million ways to heat something up, every one of them comes back to the exact use because you want to chose the one that gives an optimal experience to the user of the device. For example - durability - is this used once a day or needs to be on for an 8 hour work day every day year in year out, etc.? That leads directly into power requirements - if it is on all day - we don't want it wasting insane amounts of electricity. Now it leads into where the device will be kept - does it need to be a well insulated means of heating so nobody bumps the outside of the contraption and gets burned (e.g. which seems like common sense, but is not a concern with the design of a soldering iron, so we can't assume anything).

If we don't know the purpose, these minutia all have to be laid out explicitly instead of just using common sense, which is very painful. (By no means am I demanding you reveal it, but just sayin' the dependency is huge )

 

[biophase]

I can have a proto done by tomorrow - maybe. But it will look like a homemade POS. It will function and perform the intended purposes (remember i am only talking about heating up clips to 375 degrees). I cant take that to potential customers to trial it - do you know what I mean?

How do you know it will work? How fast will it heat it up? Does the outside box get hot? Will it burn whatever it is sitting on? Is t got to the touch? What's your timer mechanism like?

If u can have it made by tomorrow, tell me exactly how you would build it.

 

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[KLaw]

@Justin.p and @biophase I hear what y'all are saying. I can make a functioning proto. Meaning I can make a hot box that will heat up the clips to the desired temps. I've proved the concept (heated up samples in my oven) and it works. My next step is to create a true proto. Meaning a plastic housing (probably thermoset material) to encase the heating elements. I've sent out RFQ's to thomas and alibaba. If i could create the proto on my own - I would. But, I don't have the equipment or know how to design an injection mold for the housing nor do I feel comfortable being able to design a sleek look.

 

[biophase]

Heating up samples in your oven is not the same as heating up paper clips in a small box. Yes, your product has a simple goal, to heat up paper clips to 375. What you need to do is build small function unit based on the parts you think you need. You are going to spend money designing something that may not work.

You said you could build a working prototype in a day. So tell me what kind of heating element are you using, what are its specs? How do you know when it has reached 375? Does it shut off automatically? What size is it?

 

[KLaw]

Heating up samples in your oven is not the same as heating up paper clips in a small box. Yes, your product has a simple goal, to heat up paper clips to 375. What you need to do is build small function unit based on the parts you think you need. You are going to spend money designing something that may not work.

You said you could build a working prototype in a day. So tell me what kind of heating element are you using, what are its specs? How do you know when it has reached 375? Does it shut off automatically? What size is it?

I am thinking this is just taking action to be taking action. A simple thermostat / thermocouple takes care of knowing when it reaches 375 and shuts it off. The 375 is not all that critical (+ / - 50 degrees is acceptable). Size needs to be about 12"x4"x4"

 

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[biophase]

All I'm saying is that everything works in theory until you build one and test it. I would not be comfortable going into a prototype without ever proving your design or concept. This is a simple mock up, so I personally would build one. You can make things easier or harder for yourself later.

How do you know what the specs of your heating element are? How fast will this particular element heat the clips? What size is it? What is readily available? Without even knowing this, how can you spec out the exterior case? Do the clips sit right on the element? Or is the element attached to a tray/plate. Or do you expect the inside of the entire box to reach 375? What kind of thermocouple? What's its size.

In your mind, you have everything laid out. But when it comes time to find the parts, you probably want standard sizes and what's readily available (being used in other products) so you can get them cheap. But you have no idea even what these are.

Sure you can hire someone to design the whole thing, but it will cost you. Just an example off the top of my head.

You tell your designer it needs to heat 20 clips in 5 minutes. So your designer may spec a heating element of 12" based on your design requirements, but maybe every single curling iron in the world uses a 11" heating element. So the 11" one costs $.50, but a 12" one is custom and costs $2.50 if you buy 1000 of them.

Problem is the 11" element would heat the clips up in 7 minutes instead of 5. Is it ok? He doesn't know, he's just designing based on your specs. But you don't know this so your finished product now costs $10 when it could have cost $5.

 

[KLaw]

All I'm saying is that everything works in theory until you build one and test it. I would not be comfortable going into a prototype without ever proving your design or concept. This is a simple mock up, so I personally would build one. You can make things easier or harder for yourself later.

How do you know what the specs of your heating element are? How fast will this particular element heat the clips? What size is it? What is readily available? Without even knowing this, how can you spec out the exterior case? Do the clips sit right on the element? Or is the element attached to a tray/plate. Or do you expect the inside of the entire box to reach 375? What kind of thermocouple? What's its size.

In your mind, you have everything laid out. But when it comes time to find the parts, you probably want standard sizes and what's readily available (being used in other products) so you can get them cheap. But you have no idea even what these are.

Sure you can hire someone to design the whole thing, but it will cost you. Just an example off the top of my head.

You tell your designer it needs to heat 20 clips in 5 minutes. So your designer may spec a heating element of 12" based on your design requirements, but maybe every single curling iron in the world uses a 11" heating element. So the 11" one costs $.50, but a 12" one is custom and costs $2.50 if you buy 1000 of them.

Problem is the 11" element would heat the clips up in 7 minutes instead of 5. Is it ok? He doesn't know, he's just designing based on your specs. But you don't know this so your finished product now costs $10 when it could have cost $5.

Very, very, valid points. Thanks for your insight. These are all of the things that I can let bother me and slow down the process. I dont want to get hung up on paralysis by analysis. At the end of the day, im talkin about heating up clips (not paper clips). Thats why i sent out RFQ's. Hoping to initiate some conversations and identify common parts, current designs, etc...

 

[firmwear]

All I'm saying is that everything works in theory until you build one and test it. I would not be comfortable going into a prototype without ever proving your design or concept. This is a simple mock up, so I personally would build one. You can make things easier or harder for yourself later.

How do you know what the specs of your heating element are? How fast will this particular element heat the clips? What size is it? What is readily available? Without even knowing this, how can you spec out the exterior case? Do the clips sit right on the element? Or is the element attached to a tray/plate. Or do you expect the inside of the entire box to reach 375? What kind of thermocouple? What's its size.

In your mind, you have everything laid out. But when it comes time to find the parts, you probably want standard sizes and what's readily available (being used in other products) so you can get them cheap. But you have no idea even what these are.

Sure you can hire someone to design the whole thing, but it will cost you. Just an example off the top of my head.

You tell your designer it needs to heat 20 clips in 5 minutes. So your designer may spec a heating element of 12" based on your design requirements, but maybe every single curling iron in the world uses a 11" heating element. So the 11" one costs $.50, but a 12" one is custom and costs $2.50 if you buy 1000 of them.

Problem is the 11" element would heat the clips up in 7 minutes instead of 5. Is it ok? He doesn't know, he's just designing based on your specs. But you don't know this so your finished product now costs $10 when it could have cost $5.

I recently watched this video: http://blog.dragoninnovation.com/2014/08/05/roomba-teardown/

One of the designers involved with the first 4 years of the Roomba details all the unforseen problems his team went through during mass production of their product. It is basically a rehash of what you have been saying, but it reinforces your points.

The basic summary:
1) Lots of unforseen issues come up during testing.
2) Some issues are missed during testing and make it to mass production.
3) Making HW is hard (nothing is easy until it is done).
4) Fixing one problem often introduces a new problem.

The video talks about other interesting experiences, but I listed only the pertinent topics.

 

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[teabag]

Will it melt at 375 degrees?

Also, why this temperature? Are you moulding it? Trying to think of other methods to heat it :/

 

[KLaw]

I recently watched this video: http://blog.dragoninnovation.com/2014/08/05/roomba-teardown/

One of the designers involved with the first 4 years of the Roomba details all the unforseen problems his team went through during mass production of their product. It is basically a rehash of what you have been saying, but it reinforces your points.

The basic summary:
1) Lots of unforseen issues come up during testing.
2) Some issues are missed during testing and make it to mass production.
3) Making HW is hard (nothing is easy until it is done).
4) Fixing one problem often introduces a new problem.

The video talks about other interesting experiences, but I listed only the pertinent topics.

Exactly. I know I have a product that provides value and solves a need. Also, I realize i am very early in the process. I just need to talk to some experts and proceed from there. An NDA and provisional are next on my list.

 

[KLaw]

Will it melt at 375 degrees?
Also, why this temperature? It is the standard and it works for the intended purpose. Are you moulding it? Trying to think of other methods to heat it :/

Will it melt at 375 degrees? No

 

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[firmwear]

Very, very, valid points. Thanks for your insight. These are all of the things that I can let bother me and slow down the process. I dont want to get hung up on paralysis by analysis. At the end of the day, im talkin about heating up clips (not paper clips). Thats why i sent out RFQ's. Hoping to initiate some conversations and identify common parts, current designs, etc...

Prototyping and testing is part of the process. It sounds to me like you are skipping that part and jumping straight to sourcing. Talking to suppliers is a good way to know what is out there but it would be advisable to have a prototype before going too much farther.

Also, if you are considering filing a patent, having a prototype will help you find, fix, and file all the unobvious issues in your product's design thereby fulfilling the most important criteria of a good patent.

 

[KLaw]

Prototyping and testing is part of the process. It sounds to me like you are skipping that part and jumping straight to sourcing. Talking to suppliers is a good way to know what is out there but it would be advisable to have a prototype before going too much farther.

Also, if you are considering filing a patent, having a prototype will help you find, fix, and file all the unobvious issues in your product's design thereby fulfilling the most important criteria of a good patent.

To be honest, I am a feeling a little overwhelmed. I would love to build a proto but I dont have the expertise to build the housing. Everything else is simple (basically a small version of a toaster oven). In addition, I need to apply some heat resistant "tape" so one could grab the ends without pain.

 

[Justin.p]

I wonder if you couldn't somehow find a person locally with a lot of expertise in electronics and materials like casings and pay them $$$ to spend a Saturday with you hacking together a prototype with bits from radio shack and Home Depot. As ugly as possible but as accurate as possible in terms of measurements and real world temperatures reached (e.g, what temp the external casing reaches when 1/2 inch pieces surround the heating elements).

Have you thought about possibly tossing an ad up on craigslist or working your personal contacts just in case your dream engineer wouldn't mind making some spare $$ to tinker for a day? ... Just a wild suggestion

 

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[rcdlopez]

Looks like a sterling engine. Hopefully those engines have enough torque or else they will be equally as useless.

 

[firmwear]

To be honest, I am a feeling a little overwhelmed. I would love to build a proto but I dont have the expertise to build the housing. Everything else is simple (basically a small version of a toaster oven). In addition, I need to apply some heat resistant "tape" so one could grab the ends without pain.

When you were just brainstorming ideas, I was right behind you. Now, I do not know what to tell you: you got great advice from biophase and you are going to ignore it.

First you were saying it would take only a day to build a prototype, now you are not sure how to build the housing. Which is it?

My advice is to learn by doing. In case you did not know, thermal is a bitch. Companies hire Phds just to deal with thermal problems in server designs and power supplies. You want to make a tabletop, compact, enclosed, hand-held something running around 200 deg C and you think it is going to be easy?

Also, in companies the development cycle for a new product goes something like:
1) concept planning,
2) project planning,
3, 4) development cycles (usually 2), <== prototypes involved
5) pre-production,
6) mass production.

It does not take a few days or weeks from your idea to a finished design ready for mass production. For large quantities, it takes longer than that just to set up lines.

For a large company, a small, initial test run can run from 50 units to 1500 to whatever. This is because even though your prototypes are perfect, during mass production problems crop up that are totally unexpected (because of HW manufacturing tolerances, software issues, &c). You have to make a run and test each unit individually. You also have to test your end-of-line testing machine and make sure it can detect any defects. Also, there is a methodology for the test runs' quantity and how many runs there are, obviously.

Take a look at the video I posted. Things are not simple until you have it running the way you want with no problems.

If you think you are just selling them a toaster oven, then try to sell them a toaster oven and save yourself the effort of trying to develop something new.

If you watched the video, you have seen that your product price point should be roughly x4 the bill of materials cost. So if you are trying to sell your oven for $20, your BOM should be $5 or less. How do you know if you should go forward unless you think you can make a decent margin? Try to build a prototype.

I gave you a rough sketch of the development process. Even simpler, it goes like this:
i) build a working prototype that works exactly the way you would want it to work if you were the customer.
ii) Guess what? It is too damn expensive.
iii) Now start replacing the expensive parts with cheaper shit until it breaks.
iv) Repeat steps (ii) and (iii) ad nauseam.
v) Finally! you have your finished design.

The only other advice I can think to give is to:
a) find the closest suggestion (in this thread) to what you want to make and buy it.
b) tear it down and find out how it works, take note of any part #'s you can find. Driving circuit for the heating element, temperature-control, and the heating element, should be saved as well. You might not be able to tell what the parts are or where they came from.
c) the manufacturer of the product you eviscerated did steps 1-6. Figure out if you can meet your specification, cheaper.
d) re-purpose it into your product. Make sure it works without burning your house down or out-gassing all kinds of plastic shit in your kitchen or whatever.

I do not know much about materials or thermal issues. Also, I do not know any good books about product development. It would not hurt yourself to go out and find one. I did not write this post to tear you down. I am just trying to tell you that building HW can be a long process and you should not think it is trivial to go from idea to finished product. Follow the normal development process and do not skip steps. Biophase was trying to say this, I think. Usually 2 or more prototypes (3, 4) are made for a product because the first one has problems that are solved in the second. All decisions are up to you, but I suggest atleast making the first prototype yourself and farming out the second, based on the first. You will learn more and having a prototype to work off of will help both you and your 3rd party engineer.

Be forewarned that your product idea can still be a bust even if there is demand but you cannot drive the price low enough.

I wish you the best of luck.

 

[KLaw]

When you were just brainstorming ideas, I was right behind you.

First you were saying it would take only a day to build a prototype, now you are not sure how to build the housing. Which is it?

My advice is to learn by doing. In case you did not know, thermal is a bitch. Companies hire Phds just to deal with thermal problems in server designs and power supplies. You want to make a tabletop, compact, enclosed, hand-held something running around 200 deg C and you think it is going to be easy?

Also, in companies the development cycle for a new product goes something like:
1) concept planning,
2) project planning,
3, 4) development cycles (usually 2), <== prototypes involved
5) pre-production,
6) mass production.

It does not take a few days or weeks from your idea to a finished design ready for mass production. For large quantities, it takes longer than that just to set up lines.

For a large company, a small, initial test run can run from 50 units to 1500 to whatever. This is because even though your prototypes are perfect, during mass production problems crop up that are totally unexpected (because of HW manufacturing tolerances, software issues, &c). You have to make a run and test each unit individually. You also have to test your end-of-line testing machine and make sure it can detect any defects. Also, there is a methodology for the test runs' quantity and how many runs there are, obviously.

Take a look at the video I posted. Things are not simple until you have it running the way you want with no problems.

If you think you are just selling them a toaster oven, then try to sell them a toaster oven and save yourself the effort of trying to develop something new.

If you watched the video, you have seen that your product price point should be roughly x4 the bill of materials cost. So if you are trying to sell your oven for $20, your BOM should be $5 or less. How do you know if you should go forward unless you think you can make a decent margin? Try to build a prototype.

I gave you a rough sketch of the development process. Even simpler, it goes like this:
i) build a working prototype that works exactly the way you would want it to work if you were the customer.
ii) Guess what? It is too damn expensive.
iii) Now start replacing the expensive parts with cheaper shit until it breaks.
iv) Repeat steps (ii) and (iii) ad nauseam.
v) Finally! you have your finished design.

The only other advice I can think to give is to:
a) find the closest suggestion (in this thread) to what you want to make and buy it.
b) tear it down and find out how it works, take note of any part #'s you can find. Driving circuit for the heating element, temperature-control, and the heating element, should be saved as well. You might not be able to tell what the parts are or where they came from.
c) the manufacturer of the product you eviscerated did steps 1-6. Figure out if you can meet your specification, cheaper.
d) re-purpose it into your product. Make sure it works without burning your house down or out-gassing all kinds of plastic shit in your kitchen or whatever.

I do not know much about materials or thermal issues. Also, I do not know any good books about product development. It would not hurt yourself to go out and find one. I did not write this post to tear you down. I am just trying to tell you that building HW can be a long process and you should not think it is trivial to go from idea to finished product. Follow the normal development process and do not skip steps. Biophase was trying to say this, I think. Usually 2 or more prototypes (3, 4) are made for a product because the first one has problems that are solved in the second. All decisions are up to you, but I suggest atleast making the first prototype yourself and farming out the second, based on the first. You will learn more and having a prototype to work off of will help both you and your 3rd party engineer.

Be forewarned that your product idea can still be a bust even if there is demand but you cannot drive the price low enough.

I wish you the best of luck.

Excellent post and thanks for taking the time to reply. Just to clarify a few things...

"Now, I do not know what to tell you: you got great advice from biophase and you are going to ignore it." - I am not ignoring this at all, just absorbing everything and trying to process it.

"First you were saying it would take only a day to build a prototype, now you are not sure how to build the housing. Which is it?" - It would take less than a day to build a crude version not an acceptable version to pass out to gain feedback. This is what I kept getting hung up on. I want to skip the crude version and build / buy something that I would pass out to a select few for trial and error and start to refine based on that feedback. And yes - - I definitely understand this will take some time to develop. I've got a few ideas on modifying some current heaters out there that can get me closer to what I want.

Thanks again to everyone. I appreciate the advice and feedback. I will keep moving forward.

 

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[biophase]

This is what I kept getting hung up on. I want to skip the crude version and build / buy something that I would pass out to a select few for trial and error and start to refine based on that feedback.

Here is the problem, you keep thinking that the product you build needs to be passed out to people. No! The product you build needs to WORK and be able to be built COST EFFECTIVELY. Your first success is building a product that can heat paper clips up to 375. That's it. Nothing more.

You are hung up on the metal casing, but really that is the least important part of it. It's like saying you can't build a car because you don't know its body shape. Build the engine first. Why can't you go online and buy a bunch of metal cases? Toaster ovens get hot to the touch, so just put a "caution hot sticker" on it. Maybe that's all you need.

Like firmwear said, if you build a perfect product and it can be beaten by a $15 toaster then you will have wasted a ton of money.

 

[biophase]

Very, very, valid points. Thanks for your insight. These are all of the things that I can let bother me and slow down the process. I dont want to get hung up on paralysis by analysis. At the end of the day, im talkin about heating up clips (not paper clips). Thats why i sent out RFQ's. Hoping to initiate some conversations and identify common parts, current designs, etc...

BTW, This is not paralysis by analysis. In fact it is the exact opposite. These things should not bother you, this IS the process. It's been a week since your original post and you are still at square one.

I will bet that you could buy a curling iron, light dimmer and heat blanket and a coffee can and make a protoype within 4 hours. You could be on prototype number 3 or 4 by now. Can't you see that you are the one getting hung up by paralysis by analysis.

 

[KLaw]

Here is the problem, you keep thinking that the product you build needs to be passed out to people. No! The product you build needs to WORK and be able to be built COST EFFECTIVELY. Your first success is building a product that can heat paper clips up to 375. That's it. Nothing more.

You are hung up on the metal casing, but really that is the least important part of it. It's like saying you can't build a car because you don't know its body shape. Build the engine first. Why can't you go online and buy a bunch of metal cases? Toaster ovens get hot to the touch, so just put a "caution hot sticker" on it. Maybe that's all you need.

Like firmwear said, if you build a perfect product and it can be beaten by a $15 toaster then you will have wasted a ton of money.

Don't take my responses (past or current) as argumentative or defensive - it is just me trying to understand. I think a lot of it is this:
"The product you build needs to WORK and be able to be built COST EFFECTIVELY" - who am I to know how to build something cost effectively? Im no expert nor is this something I am trained in.
This next part is probably where you think you are talking to a wall - again. Let's say I did build a successful proto using "a curling iron, light dimmer and heat blanket and a coffee can". How does this get me any further along in the process? Yes - I get that it proves this can be done but we already know products can be heated to 375. The next step would be to improve upon it - correct? But again, I go back to I am not a product engineer or developer.

Bio - I am listening just not fully understanding. Appreciate your patience.

 

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[biophase]

How does this get me any further along in the process? Yes - I get that it proves this can be done but we already know products can be heated to 375. The next step would be to improve upon it - correct? But again, I go back to I am not a product engineer or developer.

Bio - I am listening just not fully understanding. Appreciate your patience.

You keep assuming that you can heat a clip up to 375 in a small vessel. You assume that it is easy. This is the part where you may be wrong. You assume that you can take things and build a prototype that will work. You do not know that you can heat a clip to 375 without an oven. This is my point. You just think that it can be done.

You are not even willing to think that your idea may not be realistic and that what you want may be impossible to build. This is where your downfall may be. I keep asking you, how do you know that your product will work. All you say is that products can be heated to 375. If this is going to be your answer, then why not buy a toaster oven?

You can buy a curling iron, dimmer and heat blanket and totally fail at your prototype. By failing you will have learned so much more about your product.

 

[Vick]

Dude.

You should test your idea first. Your trying to skip a valuable step.

I spent 6 months playing with prototypes, using 3d printers, casting molds, etc. Maybe a little to long, but what I learned about what I can and can't do was important.

There are many things you will learn about your product by doing this. You'll also discover things about yourself.

Ultimately its your decision.

To be honest, I don't see why your not doing it. It should take you a weekend at most to do. Maybe less.