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Person claims its immoral to be rich

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Raoul Duke

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We are so lucky to be born in this part of the world (not just America) and in this time in history. It is our duty to help the world become a better place.
I disagree with this so much.

I don't have the duty to help just because I was born American and have opportunity not afforded to others in the world.

That's no different than what the OP's post is about (the guy who wrote the article, not @juan917 )

Just because someone has something others don't (wealth; born in a capitalistic society) does NOT make them obligated to use those resources to improve the lives of other's that have less.

Now, if someone has more, and CHOOSES to help others...that's living right in my book.

I give my TIME and my MONEY to help the cause I believe in (Suicide prevention), because I CAN, because I WANT to, and because it is a cause that means a great deal to me.

I would rather my morale character guide me in improving the world, and not some false construct of morale obligation and duty created by society based on the guilt of having "more".

The Revolutionary Philosophy of Atlas Shrugged | The New Individualist | The Atlas Society
 

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Digamma

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Opened the thread for the memes. Was not disappointed.
 

OldFaithful

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It’s another to explain why you feel justified in spending your wealth upon houses and sculptures rather than helping some struggling people pay their rent or paying off a bunch of student loans or saving thousands of people from dying of malaria.
I'd bet that the author of this statement is struggling to pay his/her rent, is still paying off a bunch of student loans, and/or knows someone dying of some painful medical condition that is being paid for in it's entirety by the insurance company...which is essentially being paid by other insurers.

The author is displaying the very same selfishness that "the rich" are being accused of.
 
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InspireHD

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Atlas Shrugged is one book everyone should read...
I ended up taking the book off my bookshelf and began reading it last night. I read some more this morning and find myself reading a page or two every time I pass by it. It's daunting at 1000+ pages, but I'm intrigued enough that I'm going to go for it. I'll probably only read it before I go to bed so it might take me a little while.

I started reading that link, but don't want to read any spoilers. I stopped at this quote, "However, the final title, Atlas Shrugged, concisely symbolizes the book’s plot: the rebellion of the unrecognized and often persecuted creative heroes who bear the rest of the world on their shoulders." Now, I'm really interested!

Thanks for all of the recommendations and the confirmations!
 

The-J

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Simple economics explains why this is wrong.

Here's some truths for you, author of this stupid article. First: capitalism does not guarantee, nor does it promote, an equal distribution of wealth. Second: small amounts of wealth given to the poor have a greater impact on the lives of the poor than wealth saved or invested by the rich. These are facts backed up by economics.

However, you have to consider that if, 100 years ago, the 'wealthy' gave all their money to the poor, the poor would have simply spent it on improving their own lives. They would spend it on living expenses. They'd buy a Model T. They'd get rudimentary washing machines. They'd get the bare necessities of life...

... and their lives would stagnate.

No growth, because no money is being invested in the market. No technological advancement, because money would not be spent on R+D and taking risks but instead fulfilling the lives of the poor.

The poor are not thinking about how to tackle climate change. The poor are not trying to build electric cars and develop alternative fuel sources. The poor are not trying to solve the problems caused by urban sprawl.

The poor are thinking about how the F*ck their rent will get paid and how to keep their kids fed.

The poor lead lives more comfortable than ever before, thanks in very large part to the wealthy.

Some people might argue that the rich CAUSED the problems we face today. My response to that is... go live in the woods then. Go find a parcel of land in Buttfuckistan and start farming. See how you like that life. See how long you survive. There were sacrifices that had to be made in order to facilitate the lives we live today, and the wealthy are using their resources to fund the smartest people who are trying to solve the problems we have (including, yes, poverty). Believe it or not, even oil companies are investing in alternative fuel sources.

Morality has nothing to do with business. There are moral people and immoral people who are rich... just as there are moral and immoral people who are poor.
 

MJ DeMarco

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EDIT: When I made my statement about accepting funds from USAID only to be lectured about the evils of Capitalism we were sitting in an air conditioned room on a Skype conference call with people in several different countries at a large conference table covered in MacBooks, not 12 hours after we had all taken commercial flight to get there.
Chapter 22, Unscripted, last paragraph.
 

arfadugus

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I disagree with this so much.

I don't have the duty to help just because I was born American and have opportunity not afforded to others in the world.

That's no different than what the OP's post is about (the guy who wrote the article, not @juan917 )

Just because someone has something others don't (wealth; born in a capitalistic society) does NOT make them obligated to use those resources to improve the lives of other's that have less.

Now, if someone has more, and CHOOSES to help others...that's living right in my book.

I give my TIME and my MONEY to help the cause I believe in (Suicide prevention), because I CAN, because I WANT to, and because it is a cause that means a great deal to me.

I would rather my moral character guide me in improving the world, and not some false construct of moral obligation and duty created by society based on the guilt of having "more".
That's what I meant.
 

Mattie

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I would say as Entrepreneurs, we will probably hear more and more of this as time goes by. And really it's survival of the fittest. I suppose the last few weeks I've gone through another growth spurt. Which never amazes me. I believe in the process there is always attitude adjustments, dying more to the old self, and being reborn into the new self. While people don't like change, I think we're all basically forced to change whether we like it or not. The way I perceived things two months ago is quite different than today. What I perceived and believed in 2005 was quite different.

I think the point being that with maturity comes responsibility. And I suppose it's kind of like playing a chess game. As a woman I could say I was a Rook until I became a Queen in 2017. Fortunately, even a Queen still matures, grows, learns, adjusts, and has to keep their ego in check. This is one of the things, is you say stupid things, believe stupid things, because you don't know everything at the time. And the more you dig deeper below the surface, you understand the sheep is what you once were.

Perhaps when you're the sheep you don't understand the dynamics of everything. Maybe the world isn't the way you have been conditioned to believe. Maybe everything just doesn't work the same way in society anymore. Maybe the rules change and that means you have to change.

Expansion is spreading your horizon. This is just my experience of the last few weeks, but seriously labels, niches, categories are limiting, stereo type, and project a small space. I'm over the he's rich, she's poor, she's middle class. Generation X, Baby Boomers, Millennials. Who cares.

Harold Finch:[to The Machine in a flashback to 2003] You asked me to teach you chess and I've done that. It's a useful mental exercise. Through the years many thinkers have been fascinated by it. But, I don't enjoy playing. Do you know why not?
[Receives a 'No' reply on his cellphone]

Harold Finch:Because it was a game that was born during a brutal age when life counted for little and everyone believed that some people were worth more than others. Kings and pawns. I don't think that anyone is worth more than anyone else. I don't envy you the decisions you're going to have to make. And one day I'll be gone. And you'll have no one to talk to. But, if you remember nothing else, then please remember this. Chess is just a game. Real people aren't pieces. You can't assign more value to some of them than to others. Not to me. Not to anyone. People are not a thing that you can sacrifice. The lesson is... that anyone who looks on the world as if it was a game a chess deserves to lose.

I probably share this quote for the simple reason I'm Generation X. I'm squished between Baby Boomers and Millennials. And I can see from both angles, see their point of view. I've learned from the villains and hero's in my life. Some of them I have love and hate relationship with. I've had my battles with both the Baby Boomers and Millennials. In the end you just have to love them. I guess this is the maturity of being the Queen today and graduating in 2017, that without all the players whether they're the opponent or on your team you can't win unless you embrace the diversity. Pain is part of the process. Who hasn't had the experience. Every time you read something like this, it's just another person learning what they need to learn. They're not in the same place as you. I think at this point in my personal journey it makes no sense to be little other human beings because they haven't learned what I've learned. And if I remember right, this has been a long journey, process, and growth.

I can say I've probably had an attitude problem at times like most of the Entrepreneurs in here. Doesn't matter what Generation, Social Class, masculine, or feminine. It doesn't matter where you came from. I don't think I add value to society by devaluing any human being in the Fastlane, and I apologize if I have in the past. I suppose events and experience always open up your mind further, and yes pain happen.

What I do know is there is no way to not be polarized or feel pain in life. I understand that's why I'm probably be a good Generation X leader, because I understand from the Baby Boomers they made me who I am today through pain. I probably wouldn't have the drive, motivation, ambition in life I do now, if they didn't put me through the pain. At the same time the Millennials are good chess players and master minds, and challenged me to be competitive, creative, innovative, and basically a Mental Toughness Geek because I have to keep up with them. They've also caused me pain. And Millennials just do it in a different way. The one's I've had to deal with personally are reckless and destructive, and I don't enjoy it. Now I understand they're my audience, my way to wealth. So, having an attitude towards them, doesn't work because I have to work with them.

This is the thing Baby Boomers prepared me all my life to deal with Millennials. I hated the side walk, I hated walking in my relatives shadow who were Entrepreneurs. Baby Boomers are tough, but in the end, you see why they do what they do.

Paying attention to Sidewalk reminds you of where you used to be. Looking forward is your vision. Right now you're creating your future. I've been in the ranks of the lower class, middle class, and upper class. I think that's the point of Generation X. I'm not here to continue the psychological war between the masses, but bring balance, equality, respect, dignity. It's not about domination and submission, and it's not about ruling over other people. If anything I've learned in here it's about respect. And I had to go through my attitude and ego issues just like everyone else.


The key lesson: Until you do your homework, learn and apply the lessons, you're going to go around in circles a million times until the pain costs you enough to do something different. That seems to never end no matter what point you're at in the game of life. I understand I personally can be stubborn. Being stubborn, doing it my way, on my terms, never gets you anywhere. I think that was the biggest lesson I learned at the beginning of 2017. There's nothing special about me. There's nothing special about you. While the ego likes to get out of control and dominate, I believe this really ends up being self-sabotage in the end. The war is inside yourself, not with the Side walk, Slow lane, or Fast Lane. The enemy is yourself.

It's fair game, survival of the fittest, and I don't know what outcome that will bring. I just understand the who cares what someone else is doing. If you want to survive you just have to do what you have to do to survive. It doesn't matter how well or how much someone else is making, what they think, what they believe, and you're just getting yourself choked up in fear by paying attention to articles like this, wasting time, wasting energy, and thinking about the wrong things.

I don't know any individual who hasn't ever screamed, "I'm a victim, It's not fair." Life isn't fair period. The sooner everyone gets over that fact, the better off they'll be.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttRuzAaAURA

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYB4eENH7oY

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMuCexXtY9g

 
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juan917

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Don't just do a drive-by... What are you personally suggesting?
well i think its dumb and it drives me nuts that this is starting to become an idea perpetuated on the internet. Crabs in a bucket mentality. I saw this on another forum originally and told him to gtfo
 

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G-Man

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Chapter 22, Unscripted, last paragraph.
Vig triggered me and so I had to be in my safe space for a while, but I got around around to reading this this morning - it's sad. For the iphone wielding kid in your example, the ignorance is staggering but at least conceivable. I worked with people that had PhDs from top tier universities, that still believed basically the same thing.... :(

What's interesting though, is that since that chapter is couched in the context of consumerism v producerism, I realized that while I'm not a lazy parasite or in debt trying to keep up with the joneses, the consumerist script is still pretty deeply embedded in my worldview, since I naturally tend to think about getting money instead of producing things.

Don't worry, I still blame @Vigilante for my bad morning :clench:
 

Vigilante

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Vig triggered me and so I had to be in my safe space for a while, but I got around around to reading this this morning - it's sad. For the iphone wielding kid in your example, the ignorance is staggering but at least conceivable. I worked with people that had PhDs from top tier universities, that still believed basically the same thing.... :(

What's interesting though, is that since that chapter is couched in the context of consumerism v producerism, I realized that while I'm not a lazy parasite or in debt trying to keep up with the joneses, the consumerist script is still pretty deeply embedded in my worldview, since I naturally tend to think about getting money instead of producing things.

Don't worry, I still blame @Vigilante for my bad morning :clench:
Sorry. Not sorry. Don't care. LOL. Sending you a couple of fake rep dollars as the consolation.

 

MJ DeMarco

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Does your new book cover EVERYTHING?
It makes a statement about crap like this article.

if it is immoral to be rich, then i am stupid teach me about morality and give me all of your money.
At which point the author would say, "Woah, wait a sec, I only make $80,000 a year. An immoral salary starts at $80,001 and above.
 

Valor

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The OP (of the excerpt) was just some random dude on the internet.

It's easy to ignore and just say "didn't read" and move on with your day.

The actual problem is that there are real people out in the word, real leaders and influencers, who have this same philosophy.


Perfect examples below...both within the past week...

Professors who teach the next generation spreading this same garbage, and politicians who want to mold society in this view. THAT you can't ignore so easily, because eventually it will affect you.

'Practice What You Preach': Tucker Battles Prof Who Wants Higher Taxes For Rich

French candidate Jean-Luc Melenchon wants a 100% tax on the rich
 
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FinalRoundFit

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It makes a statement about crap like this article.



At which point the author would say, "Woah, wait a sec, I only make $80,000 a year. An immoral salary starts at $80,001 and above.
haha that is a funny response.
op and I have very different qualifications for "rich", and i would be willing to take the $1 should their productivity ever go up....

Morality is situation-ally based.
I dont hook up with my hot assistant bc my GF has been great to me, however i walk in and she is with someone else suddenly the same act is not quite as immoral.

Putting a number on that morality is like taking out a loan without considering interest or inflation.
 

FinalRoundFit

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The OP was just some random dude on the internet.

That's easy to ignore and just say "didn't read" and move on with your day.

The actual problem is that there are real people out in the word, real leaders and influencers, who have this same philosophy.


Perfect examples below...both within the past week...

Professors who teach the next generation spreading this same garbage, and politicians who want to mold society in this view. THAT you can't ignore so easily, because eventually it will affect you.

'Practice What You Preach': Tucker Battles Prof Who Wants Higher Taxes For Rich

French candidate Jean-Luc Melenchon wants a 100% tax on the rich
The government needs libertarians in some positions of power to keep budgets in check. Everyone has their place, that place is just not as high on the shelf as they believe.
 

amp0193

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That article was dangerous. It almost made me question things.

But you guys in the thread got me back on track.

Yes, the things some rich people choose to spend their money on are silly and useless, and that money could save thousands of lives in another part of the world.

However, if they didn't have the right to buy whatever the hell they wanted, there wouldn't have been any motivation to become that rich in the first place, and all of the benefits to the common man of "trickle down economics" would never have taken place.
 

mrarcher

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That article was dangerous. It almost made me question things.

But you guys in the thread got me back on track.

Yes, the things some rich people choose to spend their money on are silly and useless, and that money could save thousands of lives in another part of the world.

However, if they didn't have the right to buy whatever the hell they wanted, there wouldn't have been any motivation to become that rich in the first place, and all of the benefits to the common man of "trickle down economics" would never have taken place.
Buying the $300,000 Ferrari pays for the engineers, designers, mechanics, the single mom receptionist that has to feed her kids, the guys digging in the quarries for steel etc. Even the silly and useless purchases benefits people low down in the income scale.
 

edward ace

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I just read the article. The writer, who shall remain nameless, assumes or presumes that he or some unnamed entity has the authority to decide what you, I, or anyone, must do with our wealth. By the way, I am still in the slowlane, but I'm speeding.

When I earn money it is my property. That is, I am under no obligation to be generous, help the less fortunate, or otherwise give it away; all just so some immature, left-wing dip-shit can feel good for a couple of minutes.

If that writer is so concerned about the plight and well-being of the poor, children in poverty, and the homeless, then the way for him is clear; HE should be the change he wants to see in the world by becoming rich himself, then giving it away to those whom he deems to be in need.

Me!
I apologize to nobody. I answer to nobody. I justify my actions or the lack thereof to nobody.

I encourage all to read the article he wrote. I don't remember much of it, although barely 5 minutes have passed since I read it, because I am speeding up and getting on the Fastlane.

I leave you with this quote, from the righteous Reverend Ike.
"The best thing you can do for the poor is don't be one of them."
 

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lowtek

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The article is horribly misguided, and generally ignorant of basic economic facts:

Foreign aid to poor countries keeps them impoverished. Whatever you send, you are sending free goods that the local entrepreneurs cannot compete with (can't compete with free), thus destroying the local economy and leaving the people in a state of permanent desolation.

The same principle applies to the first world as well. Denmark did a study where the state varied the duration of unemployment benefits. They discovered that the amount of time it took people to get a job was directly correlated with the duration of their benefits. The smaller the safety net, the faster people got back to work.

Finally, the lives that are ruined in the wake of winning the lottery, or of hitting the NBA jackpot, are testament to the fact that there is something more that separates the rich from the poor, than the amount of money they can access.

I know poor people, I grew up with and was surrounded by them. They are poor because of their choices, not because somebody else out there has more toys.
 

Longinus

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The same principle applies to the first world as well. Denmark did a study where the state varied the duration of unemployment benefits. They discovered that the amount of time it took people to get a job was directly correlated with the duration of their benefits. The smaller the safety net, the faster people got back to work.
100%. My sister lives in subsidized housing and her rent is based on how much she earns.
"What's the point of earning more if I have to pay more rent?" => Is the first question that pops in their heads. This way people are motivated to stay low.

Side note: when I visit her with my 10 yo Volvo, I have the oldest car of the whole street.
 

Dignium

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The writer behind this has yet to see the truth that we know. Her argument centers around the “I’m poor because you’re rich” fixed wealth fallacy. While she does see that massive wealth is created because of producing massive marketplace value, however she doesn’t see how that makes everyone wealthier. (did the millions that paid a quarter to watch basketball not get value in exchange?)

I’m not going to get into her side argument that ends with “academics who insist on being rude to servers in restaurants, on the grounds that being polite to them obscures the true brutality of class relations.”

She closes her article with a proposal:

We can define something like a “maximum moral income” beyond which it’s obviously inexcusable not to give away all of your money. It might be 5o thousand. Call it 100, though. Per person. With an additional 50 allowed per child. This means two parents with a child can still earn $250,000! That’s so much money. And you can keep it. But everyone who earns anything beyond it is obligated to give the excess away in its entirety. The refusal to do so means intentionally allowing others to suffer, a statement which is true regardless of whether you “earned” or “deserved” the income you were originally given. (Personally, I think the maximum moral income is probably much lower, but let’s just set it here so that everyone can agree on it. I do tend to think that moral requirements should be attainable in practice, and a $30k threshold would actually require people experience some deprivation whereas a $100k threshold indisputably still leaves you with an incredibly comfortable lifestyle better than almost any other had by anyone in history.)“

In the writers world:
-if you want to make a large impact requiring more than slowlane-level income & net worth, too bad.
-If you desire a wealthier lifestyle than a low six-figure slowlane lifestyle, you are intentionally allowing others to suffer.
-If you want to help world problems with hand-ups instead of hand-outs, it’s something to be ashamed of in the writers world.

Here is what I believe would happen in this hypothetical scenario:
Her grassroots movement succeeds in instilling “maximum moral income” amoung the majority of people. Wealthy who convert to this ideology give away & blow away their wealth and are reduced to slowlaners and sidewalkers. Most no longer facilitate their business empires. Innovation slows to a crawl because “I’ll be shunned, labeled and treated like a low life live if live richer than my peers. If I shunned from the rewards from the risk I take I’m better off with a job!”.

Sidewalkers complain about the lack of new thrills, slowlaners love the perceived morality boost, the Fastlane is wide open to Fastlaners ignoring the new imperative of the majority. Communists celebrate as they realize that while everybody is not equally wealthy, the communist utopia has finally been reached.

All is well for a couple years in the majority’s minds until societial progress stalls and we start sliding back to tribalism and we begin to lose the ability to make complex technologies because nobody was really incentivized to maintain the gears of production, much less innovate for new and better gears. Civilization withers and fails while people think it’s virtuous to live with less and less (want to see this mentality? Read the comments on articles at LowTechMagazine.com for a couple hours). For the society in this hypothetical scenario, their only hope is the truth comes out & acted upon before civilization irreversibly collapses.

Your beliefs are the foundation to your actions and will define your future. Articles like this can silently & unknowingly lead Fastlaners to not start, sabotage their execution or blow away their Unscription because they believe [insert procession of anti-wealth / anti-capitalist beliefs here]. This is briefly touched upon in Chapter 22 of Unscripted.
 
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Sadik

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The amount of money you make is directly proportional to the amount of value you have created for other people. You may not agree that something is "value" but the market only cares about need and the fulfillment of the need. Fulfill the need of more people and make more money. The article is silly.
 

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