O Sh*t! How I accidentally became unemployed, and what I'm doing about it.

[Deleted50669]

Hey Forum folk!

I've been diligently building my product while working my full-time job... until yesterday.

Yesterday I was asked to do something no moral man would allow himself to do: layoff colleagues. As a consultant, sometimes the depths of hell surface to rear their ugly face. Well, yesterday was that day for me. As an operations expert, I was tasked with identifying the teammates who contribute the least value to my team, and once identified inform them that they're laid off. I told the requester that that work exceeded my ethical boundaries, and that I was unwilling to do it. And so, not surprisingly I was the first one to go!

While I am terrified, it feels good to have stood up for my morals. Alas, I am presented with a quite pressing challenge: sustaining income. While my project remains intact, I am now building a service firm doing the stuff I was just doing. I can only pray that I get a client in the next two months, or else my situation will get tight. A scary time indeed, but I will be resilient. Sharing my plight out of fear. Hopefully the boat will sail on in a few weeks!

- Cheers

 

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[Ravens_Shadow]

If I have people on my team, and they need to go, even if its just from an operations standpoint and not performance based, they'll be gone. I've had to let a few people go. I've been laid off from a job in the past as well. It happens. You're an "operations expert" yet you cant lay down the hammer of that which is a layoff. You didn't save those people from losing their jobs, they're still going to.

What happens when you get a client who wants you to come in and cull their team? Are you gonna say "WOAH, that's way out of my comfort zone."? No, you're going to get the job done because that's what has to be done.

 

[Tom.V]

My only advice, pick up the phone and dial.

Again. And again. And again.

Then take a break and figure out how to do it better.

Then do it again.

 

[CareCPA]

Yes, you raised a few good points there. Perhaps I'm too soft for that line of work. Just didn't feel right - like I was betraying the people I work with on a daily basis.

If the company is squeezed, and you don't get rid of the least-performing, everyone will go down.
Would you rather put 10 people out of a job that don't deserve to be unemployed, or 100 people?

 

[Late Bloomer]

Several commenters are ignorant of what Six Sigma Black Belt Operations Consulting is... or, chose to ignore that part of 404's story.

Six Sigma is a methodology for using math and the scientific method to improve production. It was originated in manufacturing and that's by far still its biggest area of use. Black Belt is a level of certified training in the methodology. Operations here does NOT mean management, job descriptions, hiring, personnel, or employee evaluations! Operations means taking physical inputs into a physical process that changes their physical properties, so that parts get manufactured and assembled into complete shipments.

A Six Sigma Black Belt is a perfect person to ask to reorganize how you lay out the machinery and workflow in your factory. Where do supplies come in? How much inventory do you need to have on hand for smooth running production? Should you use a few do-everything machines, or a lot of small specialized machines? Can you reduce the amount of transportation and handling of work in progress, in order to have more consistent lead times for customers and less fire-fighting? These are the kind of things Six Sigma can tell you.

A Black Belt's Six Sigma training would NOT let them legitimately claim that they are the perfect person to tell you who should be hired and fired from that factory! If they know about directing people, it would be from some learning experience other than Six Sigma!

Six Sigma consulting often involves working for one client, onsite, full time for many months in order to optimize their physical manufacturing process of handling materials. It is NOT expected to include how to attribute hustle and profitability to particular employees!

404 was exactly right on to say that "who should we throw out today?" is NOT part of his scope of work.

 

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[Fastlane Liam]

1. Print out Resume copies
2. Buy large box of Krispy Kremes
3. Head to your nearest Recruitment Agency relevant to your line of work
4. Let the vultures swarm you as you hand out your resume to each recruiter

If you're building a physical product its going to take cash to get started

 

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[The-J]

How is that morality?

Maybe you disagree with the assessment of those people as being low performing. OK, that's fair. Maybe you believe that the team is better off with those low performers because the team is greater than the sum of its parts, and losing anyone would be a huge disservice to the team.

Fair enough.

But refusing to lay off people who are indeed low performing and don't contribute their fair share to the team? How does that have anything to do with morals? It sounds to me that it was just something that you didn't want to do for whatever reason, not due to some value.

I don't mean to call you a coward. It just seems like you lack the willingness to deliver the killing blow... which is really not a good thing.

 

[CareCPA]

I'm curious to how you fastlaners would respond to a client who wants you to perform something outside your normal consulting duties or if they wanted you to do something unpleasant.

Charge more money?

Tell them that it means renegotiating your contract?

Something else?

Charge more money.
This is why accountants have engagement letters. We clearly define what we will and will not do for the price we give you, and then we tell you that we'll bill you extra if you ask us to do something outside that scope.
I'm more lax than most, but even I draw the line occasionally.

 

[Late Bloomer]

And so, not surprisingly I was the first one to go!
... I can only pray that I get a client in the next two months, or else my situation will get tight.

I sympathize. It sounds like you have no regrets about not swinging the axe that was handed to you. Time to put that behind you. I recommend that as soon as you are calm, you think of a one line way to explain your departure. "I'm an operations consultant who improves business systems, using six sigma methodology. The client abruptly assigned me to do layoffs of my own peers, even though I hadn't been involved in management or supervision or employee performance metrics. When I told them this was outside the scope of my work, they instantly fired me." I think that's enough for any new boss to know.

I recommend you leave out the whole question of morality. Present it only as your being put into making the hardest of management decisions - who to sack when profits are down - without having had any input into employee evaluations, any participation in the management team, any training in how the company sees the value of employees. I would assume that you would agree that if someone does take on a leadership position, they would be expected to be able to know the financial contribution levels of employees, and they would be able to make that hard choice because they were prepared for it.

 

[Deleted50669]

You're not denying yourself the opportunity to start your own business because you're looking for a job. Many, many people start their businesses as side hustles. Still, I know what you mean.

Yea, good point. I have been building a CENTS product for the past six months, so in that sense it's "business as usual". I was thinking more along the lines of, "I'm really good at this one part of consulting. In order to win that work for myself I need equally good sales skills, or the right network.". That's not to say I couldn't obtain those things, but in a timely-enough manner, it's a hell of a risk for me to remain financially viable. So for not I will stick with the CENTS product development and hit the recruiters again.

 

[Deleted50669]

what is stopping you from exploding in sales right now?

Honestly, a combination of fear and indecision. I've read through all the gold threads, some of them many times, and it feels like roulette. Do I abandon consulting and immerse myself in copy? Is copy saturated, and should I instead take a year and learn machine learning and artificial intelligence? Am I smart enough to comprehend that material? Do I just go looking for problems to solve, with no strategy?

These are the constant thoughts the whirl around my skull, ultimately keeping me from just.. doing something. I will give myself credit for committing to my CENTS product, but I am definitely stuck when it comes to selling myself outside of a corporate structure. I am a relatively strong writer, and have a decent understanding of how to create good copy. But going from - here - to having a consistent stream of clients is a black box challenge.

 

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[Deleted50669]

How is that morality?

Maybe you disagree with the assessment of those people as being low performing. OK, that's fair. Maybe you believe that the team is better off with those low performers because the team is greater than the sum of its parts, and losing anyone would be a huge disservice to the team.

Fair enough.

But refusing to lay off people who are indeed low performing and don't contribute their fair share to the team? How does that have anything to do with morals? It sounds to me that it was just something that you didn't want to do for whatever reason, not due to some value.

I don't mean to call you a coward. It just seems like you lack the willingness to deliver the killing blow... which is really not a good thing.

Well it comes back to.. they weren't really poor performing. I agree that poor performers have no right to job security; they don't provide value commensurate with their cost. However, the folks in the crosshairs were all pretty strong performers. The only case against them is that they were relative low-performers to the rest of the team. They still did great work for the client, and were highly competent. I refuse to take out people genuinely devoting themselves to the team and doing what it takes to make the client happy. It seems some of you disagree with me, but that's my philosophy.

 

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[Tom.V]

I wonder if charging a price they will not pay for the 'extras 'could be a way of avoiding these situations.

This is also why I would dislike having 1 client.

It can. Personally, if I don't want to do something, I'll price it high enough to make it worth my while if I do end up doing the work.

And 1 client is as risky as risky gets. I don't know how service business that only serve a single, large client sleep at night. It's a total lack of control and with one decision your business is caput. No more employees, no more office, no more revenue, nothing.

 

[The-J]

I'm curious to how you fastlaners would respond to a client who wants you to perform something outside your normal consulting duties or if they wanted you to do something unpleasant.

Tell them no, if I don't want to do it.

If I want to do it, then I renegotiate. Very simple.

Never be afraid to say no or to reject a cheque.

 

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[Merging Left]

I am, I've got a few interviews lined up. Not thrilled about denying myself the opportunity to start my own business, but at the same time, I acknowledge the holes in my sales skills that need to be filled before I can trust myself to pay the bills.

You're not denying yourself the opportunity to start your own business because you're looking for a job. Many, many people start their businesses as side hustles. Still, I know what you mean.

 

[msufan]

This is an interesting case. Obviously there is a time for firing people who aren't performing. Your feeling was that this was not your role since these were your colleagues and you were not officially in an oversight position?

 

[Deleted50669]

This is an interesting case. Obviously there is a time for firing people who aren't performing. Your feeling was that this was not your role since these were your colleagues and you were not officially in an oversight position?

It was not a case where anyone's performance was detrimental. The team budget got squeezed, and management enforced a performance distribution layoff. That's essentially forcing folks into a percentile regardless of whether or not they are doing their jobs well.

 

[Tom.V]

I like your advice, but dial who? Share as much info as you'd like, but I'm new to service sales so I'm looking for any guidepost really.

Who is your ideal client? Figure out who they are, where they are, and what they eat for breakfast. Then dial.

 

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[Deleted50669]

So you're an operations expert, who's unwilling to identify and correct operational inefficiency by firing people? And you've been making money as a consultant? No wonder you were fired.

If you think firing people is unethical, I'm not sure why you think this is an appropriate community for you. The position here is actually usually that you'd be doing those people a favor by firing them. If you'd gotten off your high horse, you'd have been in control of the firing, and could've done so in the most helpful way possible -- such as giving them understanding advice on what to do next. It's not like they didn't get fired because you didn't fire them. They're now going to get fired by someone who gives less of a sh*t about them. The whole idea that firing is unethical is nuts. Keeping someone employed where they don't generate value to the company is waste in both directions. Otherwise lets pay people to dig ditches while we pay others to refill it.

There was no accident in this, you fired yourself.

First of all, unless you understand the intricacies of FMEA, monte carlo simulation, and/or mixed-model regression analysis, I suggest you reserve your critique of my technical qualifications. I have saved, and will continue to save my clients millions of dollars due to suboptimal processing conditions.

Second of all, had you read any of the conversation instead of responding with the first neanderthal thought the plopped into your reptilian brain you would have had enough context to understand why, in fact, the folks being considered for termination were not waste. It was a forced performance distribution layoff, which means that even high performers get on the chopping block. It is a reflection of senior management's shitty accounting practices and inability to sustain hires. So before you attack me as having fired myself, why don't you get down off your pedestal and dig for more information. But I guess you're the kind of guy that likes to swing the axe on a guy when he's down.

 

[LittleWolfie]

I'm curious to how you fastlaners would respond to a client who wants you to perform something outside your normal consulting duties or if they wanted you to do something unpleasant.

Charge more money?

Tell them that it means renegotiating your contract?

Something else?

 

[TonyStark]

Yes, you raised a few good points there. Perhaps I'm too soft for that line of work. Just didn't feel right - like I was betraying the people I work with on a daily basis.

To be honest, would any of those people have done the same thing for you?

I work with family, so I enjoy my time at work.

But had it been anywhere else, I would’ve held an Olympic relay for their jobs.

 

[Bearcorp]

I agree with you that a business owner who hires an employee, needs to be prepared right then for the day they might need to let that employee go. I think it was in the book The Peter Principle, but I haven't been able to find the quote, that goes something like this: If you want to be in charge, you have to be ready to let the worker go. Even if you know that he needs the job, and relies on the job to take care of his family. When you make your decision, don't stretch it out. Fire him right away, that same day. And there is one more thing you must do: you must go home that night and be able to enjoy a good night's sleep.

If I can ever find the exact quote, I'll put it in.

I had the unpleasant experience of sacking a bunch of guys right before Christmas in London a few years ago, we'd worked on a building site and I was the supervisor.
My working visa was about to run out so I was heading home, and the job was wrapping up, and as we were all sub contractors to the company they didn't care what happened to everyone. (myself and a few others had new projects with them lined up but like I said I was heading home)

The job was a sh*t show when I got there and we had put in some hard yards to get it done, one of those jobs all the people on site are proud of but all the office see is the money wasted at the start (well before I got there haha!)

Labor on site wasn't supposed to be in my job role but the nature of the site meant the company gave me freedom to get plumbers and labourers from a recruitment company whenever I saw fit. (Normally the office based project manager would manage labor, I hated that and preferred running it my way) I built a good team, and we ended up nailing the job. I'd begged my manager to find some of the guys jobs somewhere as a reward for what they'd done, but it fell on deaf ears.

So laying them off as I no longer required them was left to me. Some guys I could say;

"hey mate thanks for your help your off to this site tomorrow, heres the address" and off they'd go,

but some, it was;

"remember how my manager told you last week he has a job for you, well now they don't, i'm sorry"

And the worst, was my 2IC on site, a guy from Afghanistan, married with 2 young kids, earning 5 pounds an hour, I don't even know how he could afford to eat in London on that money. He was a great little worker, no idea about plumbing and as weak as a child but did anything I asked. No sites within the company had a role for him, I had warned him maybe 5-6 weeks out that he wouldn't be staying on and he should look for more work.

His recruitment company could only find him scaffolding and concreting roles, heavy labor, and he wasn't built for it, had no more work lined up.

When the time came, he cried. Full on tears, hugged me and thanked me for keeping him on as long as I did, his lack of strength and plumbing knowledge held him back and a few of the plumbers would get annoyed with him but I always stuck up for him because he did what I needed. 2 weeks before Christmas...

The next time I spoke to my project manager I had a go at him for not trying harder, he simply explained to me;
"mate we go through so many workers here, its the nature of the business, don't get attached"*

It sucked, but having done that, its not something I'll ever fear in my own business, your comment is smack on how it needs to be approached when the time comes! Thanks for sharing.

*EDIT the whole time I worked there I was surprised with there lack of empathy toward workers, but seeing how many they go through (for so many different reasons) helped me to understand better. In London people come and go every day.*

 

[Rivoli]

Hey Forum folk!

I've been diligently building my product while working my full-time job... until yesterday.

Yesterday I was asked to do something no moral man would allow himself to do: layoff colleagues. As a consultant, sometimes the depths of hell surface to rear their ugly face. Well, yesterday was that day for me. As an operations expert, I was tasked with identifying the teammates who contribute the least value to my team, and once identified inform them that they're laid off. I told the requester that that work exceeded my ethical boundaries, and that I was unwilling to do it. And so, not surprisingly I was the first one to go!

While I am terrified, it feels good to have stood up for my morals. Alas, I am presented with a quite pressing challenge: sustaining income. While my project remains intact, I am now building a service firm doing the stuff I was just doing. I can only pray that I get a client in the next two months, or else my situation will get tight. A scary time indeed, but I will be resilient. Sharing my plight out of fear. Hopefully the boat will sail on in a few weeks!

- Cheers

Just so you know if you run your own business, I promise you at some point you will go through a tough time and the right business move todo will be to lay someone off, or actually risk going out of business. You better have what it takes to make the right decision when the time comes, or both you and the people you are protecting go down together.

It has nothing to do with what’s “ethical”. Laying someone off because the business isn’t preforming is not unethical. It is really hard though.

 

[Deleted50669]

Many companies will bring in an interim person, say an interim HR Director, who will cut a large portion of the workforce, and then move on to other things. It's entirely possible that management intended to end your contract as soon as you finished laying people off. There's no way to know.

It is what it is. Are you looking for new work now?

I am, I've got a few interviews lined up. Not thrilled about denying myself the opportunity to start my own business, but at the same time, I acknowledge the holes in my sales skills that need to be filled before I can trust myself to pay the bills.

 

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[sparechange]

use the motivation of having a shitty job to drive you further into developing your fastlane business.

 

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[Deleted50669]

I guess that KAK's "be a sharp dressed man" discussion here is not for you

There is a major difference between dressing in a fitted suit under your own volition and doing so to please your corporate master.

 

[Stargazer]

Ok no input then.

You'll take a pat on the back and a 'good for you' though?

Dan

 

[Deleted50669]

My only advice, pick up the phone and dial.

Again. And again. And again.

Then take a break and figure out how to do it better.

Then do it again.

I like your advice, but dial who? Share as much info as you'd like, but I'm new to service sales so I'm looking for any guidepost really.

 

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[msufan]

It was not a case where anyone's performance was detrimental. The team budget got squeezed, and management enforced a performance distribution layoff. That's essentially forcing folks into a percentile regardless of whether or not they are doing their jobs well.

Gotcha. In that case, I respect your decision and wish you well on your new adventure!

 

[Deleted50669]

If the company is squeezed, and you don't get rid of the least-performing, everyone will go down.
Would you rather put 10 people out of a job that don't deserve to be unemployed, or 100 people?

I don't necessarily disagree with that logic. I do disagree with asking someone internal to the team to execute the command. If you were on my team and I laid you off, how would you respond? How would the rest of the team view me once that happened? I could not be trusted, and I would have a faction of disgruntled colleagues forming against me. Had I done that work, I would have dug my own grave regardless.

 

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