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Movies like Zeitgeist and The Secret?

Gymjunkie

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Ryan was banned at his request. I tried to talk him out of it but he restated his request.

If he did it to do more action than it's a good decision... Hope he comes back with some great results!
 
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John Rogers

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Think and Grow Rich is some dense reading for sure. As I remember, it took me quite awhile to get through it.

The law of attraction was popularized during the Christian new thought movement in the early 1900s. Rhonda Byrne, the creator of The Secret, based much of her original material on The Science of Getting Rich by Wallace Wattles who was a popular new thought writer.

The origin of the law of attraction at a minimum goes back to the teachings of Hermes/Thoth. Any further discussion of that would get into religious topics, so I'll leave it at that. At any rate, The Secret glosses over the topic at best.
 

Kung Fu Steve

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Think and Grow Rich is some dense reading for sure. As I remember, it took me quite awhile to get through it.

The law of attraction was popularized during the Christian new thought movement in the early 1900s. Rhonda Byrne, the creator of The Secret, based much of her original material on The Science of Getting Rich by Wallace Wattles who was a popular new thought writer.

The origin of the law of attraction at a minimum goes back to the teachings of Hermes/Thoth. Any further discussion of that would get into religious topics, so I'll leave it at that. At any rate, The Secret glosses over the topic at best.

During Think and Grow Rich we were supposed to reveal this "secret" to ourselves. Does anyone believe they actually figured out what he was talking about? Is it actually the law of attraction? Or did he intend something else? Will we ever even know? I'm trying to think back to "What would Napolean Hill Do" and I'm not sure if they gave the answer or not. I'd have to listen again... It was sooo booorrrinnngg though. And I'm not one to find personal development in any form boring.
 

FDJustin

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Very nice, Toph. I actually like the way he talks in those videos... Though I can't listen to him for more than a few minutes at a time... I have to pay very close attention to what he says so I can translate it properly. It's exhausting.

Of course, this is a good thing. It means I can't fall into the habit of putting him on in the background and merely thinking I'm listening. Of course, we aren't listening if we aren't actively listening. (Why I don't believe in audio books while driving; also why I don't listen to them while working.)
 

Sparlin

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Spoiler alert: I'll write this just to save someone else 3 hours.

I just watched Zeitgeist and thought it was very interesting. What I gathered is that it basically advocates a Utopian global society. One that abolishes all currencies and greatly reduces man's responsibilities to self while calling for equality among the masses. The film is based on several presuppositions which are more easily disproved than proved.

The opening premise is that genetics determine one's ability to adapt to life; however the range of adaptation depends greatly on environmental factors. Its these predetermining factors that explain all negative human behaviors. Since behavior is a product of environment combined with genetics, no one is truly accountable for his actions.

The movie then discussed a history of the world's economies along with their emergence into the current global system, all of which is explained from a singular viewpoint. The film spends almost an hour defining capitalism only to demonize it and it's supporters. Holding true to the theory that no one is accountable for their actions, capitalist are sympathetically viewed as mentally impaired (movie's stated viewpoint, not mine).

The plot continues by showing how the planet is being exploited by those who greedily choose to build their lives on the backs of the destitute. It exposes what is perceived to be the problem with the current consumption rate of global resources, then mockingly questions the decision making abilities of capitalist.

A model of the proposed Utopian world is then shown and explained. Of course, individual happiness on a global scale is assumed. The society functions primarily by using 97% mechanical automation to address their daily needs. A global network is established to monitor various regions and corrects any logistical problems.


The movie concludes by indicating that we are at the precipice of global catastrophe and that change must occur. This is symbolized when the mostly docile, yet massive world population face off against police powers who are the paid protectors of capitalist. Rather than resorting to all out violence, the world's population refuses to play by the established rules and voluntarily discards all money.


My conclusion is that this film was interesting because it presented a philosophy which seems to be permeating many cultures. My OPINION is that the film's message is misleading because it takes some truths then mixes them with broad accusations in order to support their premise. Although their reasoning appears sound at first, it can be easily rebutted if viewed objectively.
 

Neon

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"The Secret" has some good info in it but I believe it's been so successful because it sells the lie that just thinking about something will make it happen.

"Hey, I don't need to quit playing Xbox for 5 hours a day and eating Hot Pockets...I just need to spend 15 minutes a day visualizing my Ferrari!"

It literally enables people who probably aren't doing much with their lives anyway to justify extravagant aspirations without any value coming into the picture.

Successful people didn't get there by wishing for big houses and fast cars...they looked for an opportunity to provide value to society, charged a fair price for it and became wealthy by serving others. Out of that success flows the wealthy lifestyle.
 
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John Rogers

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Spoiler alert: I'll write this just to save someone else 3 hours.
After some further research, I have found there are several Zeitgeist films, and what I viewed was Zeitgeist: Moving Forward. Apparently the first one contains some 9/11 conspiracy theory ideas that were not in the film I viewed.

Sparlin has shared a very accurate assessment of the film in my view. By and large, documentary films have agendas and present information in a way to sway viewers. Zeitgeist: Moving Forward is no different. The film ultimately is a promotion of a social system based on the ideas of Jacque Fresco's The Venus Project. (The proposed Utopian world mentioned by Sparlin).

There are some very good arguments and information in the film. The societal structure proposed is a cool idea, however I simply don't see it as attainable. In my opinion, self-interest will never allow something like that to happen.
 

kwerner

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Cool, I didn't know you could request to ban yourself. :D
Can you still read posts on the forum when you're banned, just not post, or can you not view anything at all?



Notice: Kwerner will be providing an answer to his own question in 7 days.
Don't worry...he's one of my best friends. :)
I'm sure he'll be calling me soon.

Sparlin (Mod.)



Update: Kwerner retaliated by banning me from his website. Touché lol... Ban lifted.
 

Rem

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I watched Zeitgeist all the way through. Although it has a lot of great information I do not subscribe to their theories on how to run a utopian society. I do agree with a lot of the teachings regarding the current world and how it operates.

I do believe in a better world but not one of socialistic ideologies where one cannot prosper if they choose to excel. I believe we can remove poverty without having to remove wealth. It's not wealth in and of itself that is faulty but how people utilize that wealth.

I can build churches and cathedrals or I can start wars.

In the futuristic world they represent at the end of the movie it clearly shows that money has been removed completely and people raise their hands in joyous consideration to contribute to the lives of all. How can one person with extraordinary talent and drive excel above the rest?
 
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John Rogers

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Notice: Kwerner will be providing an answer to his own question in 7 days.
Don't worry...he's one of my best friends. :)
I'm sure he'll be calling me soon.

Sparlin (Mod.)

:rofl:
 

Robert Francis

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The Secret And Zeitgeist and Fastlane Mentality

Anybody have any recommendations of movies like these? They are pretty captivating and get you to open your mind.

This thread caught my attention because both of these films (for different reasons) would be the type of films I need to avoid when attempting to maintain a "Fastlane Attitude."

I was just re-reading MJ's book last night and happened to stumble on the section related to "The Secret" and loved that section, particularly because he so clearly drew comparisons between a "Fastlane" mind set and that of "The Secret."

After reading it, I was actually RELIEVED because since watching "The Secret" years ago, I've been carrying around a vague subconscious ADDITIONAL guilt item that I wasn't ALSO spending enough time "Manifesting" and that the REAL reason I was not exactly where I wanted to be was because I hadn't spent enough time "thinking" about what needed to be done.

MJ made me feel as if it was okay to just "get to it" and focus on the "doing" and quit worrying about "bringing the universe around with my mind"; I can bring the universe around with my ACTIONS.

Granted, for some, the concepts in "The Secret" are new and probably helpful (i.e. Whatever you believe you can achieve, etc.), but for an OLD guy like me, it does (per MJ) seem like just the latest re-hash of the Positive Mental Attitude stuff I discovered decades ago.

Relative to Zeitgeist, where do I begin?

Is there anything in those movies that won't IMPEDE your attempt to stay in the Fastlane?

Again, maybe it's just me, but those movies (and the million others online) that have the basic theme of "They" are really in control (Not YOU!), etc. Just SAP every ounce of motivation out of me.

Although it is very possible that aliens or reptiles or the Illuminati or the Bilderbergs do, in fact, run the world...what is me watching a video about it going to accomplish?

And, even if it is true, it makes me think of that famous line, "We tell ourselves stories every second of our day...I choose to tell myself stories that make me feel empowered and motivated and happy."

It's really hard for me to feel "positive" after watching 99% of these films.

IMHO, these films propagate just one additional "slow lane" idea that someone else/something else is the cause of my non success/non happiness....but, instead of it being "the man"...it's a 6 foot reptilian Illuminati.
 

John Rogers

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IMHO, these films propagate just one additional "slow lane" idea that someone else/something else is the cause of my non success/non happiness
I don't completely agree with that, but I get where you're coming from. We're bred, born, and raised to be slowlane. It really takes a personal epiphany to break away from that mindset. Depending on what you take away from Zeitgeist: Moving Forward, that film could be the catalyst to a fastlane epiphany. I thought it did a fairly good job of explaining why the world is stuck in the slowlane.
 
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NHS

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This thread still going on?

IMHO, these films propagate just one additional "slow lane" idea that someone else/something else is the cause of my non success/non happiness....but, instead of it being "the man"...it's a 6 foot reptilian Illuminati.


Funny that you say that because I walked away from this stuff thinking I am the only one who is going to do anything and I cannot rely on anything in life except myself.

End of the day we all came to this website for the same reason. If watching some fluff movie got me to make 200k last year I'm not gonna complain. Everyone is focusing to much on the source instead of the outcome.

If others think I am crazy for admitting to enjoying stuff like this(if only to see another perspective, I have never said I believed any of it) then so be it. I mean hell I indirectly got accused of being a Jew hater in this thread for saying I enjoy this stuff. Whatever someone wants to call me to make them feel better they should go ahead and do it. I really don't mind.
 

Rem

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I have seen many times where 2 people have been brought up in the same environment and they end up being complete opposites. While both were brought up poor and in abusive families one goes on to become poor and abusive themselves. The other has a wonderful and loving family and has a good comfortable income.

We all are given a choice to be who we want to be. In America we can wake up in the morning and choose to be who we are. We have the ability to pursue our own dreams, our own happiness.

What makes me happy doesn't necessarily make my neighbor happy or their neighbor. The film talks about this country is made up of all kinds of different people. We don't have black problems or jew problems or hispanic problems but we have human problems. That is fine to state but we have to also realize that all humans are different. What I choose to pursue and what makes me happy is not the same as what my sister chooses to do, even though we were both brought up under the same roof, had the same influential parents and teachers and friends in the community.

I want to make millions. My friend doesn't need or want a lot of money and wants to be in the Army for the rest of his life. I have another friend who likes to sit on the couch and watch TV. He knows he can do other things but is perfectly content.

The film assumes all people want the same things in life and can all live together in harmony once we remove money from the equation. I don't think it's that simple. I believe was all play a part in society. There are naturally those who create systems for other people to run. There are people who are completely happy with being an employee for these systems. The film shows there is some resentment that "THEY" are forced to work for the system and that those who created it are evil, war-mongering, money chasing, non-empathetic, soul-less creatures doing everything in their power to keep everyone else poor. Sure there are those out there who are corrupt but the solution to their problem is one where we all are equal in social status. I believe it is in our very nature to be competitive and it in such a utopia considered, you remove all incentive to be a top-achiever and to accept the system given. OK sure you can improve on the system but it's still about the system.

For those who feel inferior because someone makes more money in society than them need to get their heads examined. It isn't a money issue but a personal problem that can be dealt with on a different level. I do feel bad for those who can't help themselves but most people are where they are because they choose to be there. If they want something bad enough they should work hard to get it. To simply be given something because it is only "fair" is a system designed to fail and to cause way more problems than a society where you get out of it what you put in.

If you want to all be shipped a free fish every day for dinner because we have removed money from the system and we all work together to be sent a fish to your door step that everyone can now bring in and cook in their ovens then you are relying on the system. Once the system is removed you can no longer fend for yourself. Or would you prefer a system that provides a fishing pole where you can learn to catch your own fish. Now it might take some effort on your part to learn, and master the art of fishing, but once the system crumbles you still have that skill to fend for yourself. And hey let's say you become good at it and you work hard and you can bring home a dozen fish every night. Or you can sit home instead and watch American Idol. It's your choice. Bring home just one fish, just enough to survive, turn on the tube and rot your mind.

What you put into is what you are gonna get out of it. Heck take all your fish and use it to barter to get other things you want. What a beautiful system that is. I choose to work hard. Someone else chooses not to. Not because they were raised from an abusive parent or their teacher told them they were stupid but because they make that choice now.

Sure people influence you all the time. I still read books and talk to people that really influence me. But at the end of the day I know it is my call. I can do whatever I want with my life. I can mope around my house and feel sorry for myself because my mother was a nagging wench 20 years ago or I can say to myself "I am what I make of myself now" and work hard to achieve what I want.

I think the film is very flawed although there are still things in their I believe are true. I just think that human nature is not that simple.

Some things that look to be cause in effect are simply due to Identity and people tend to become who they identify themselves as. If you become poor you tend to believe you are a poor person and therefore get wrapped into a self-fulfilling prophecy. People become whoever they want.
 

Robert Francis

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If others think I am crazy for admitting to enjoying stuff like this(if only to see another perspective, I have never said I believed any of it) then so be it. I mean hell I indirectly got accused of being a Jew hater in this thread for saying I enjoy this stuff. Whatever someone wants to call me to make them feel better they should go ahead and do it. I really don't mind.

Don't get me wrong.

The reason I (recently) have started to avoid these docs is because they're like crack for me.

And, I've never heard a conspiracy theory I don't believe, including most of these.

My greater point (and I haven't watched the latest Zeitgeist) is that I always feel drained and depressed after these docs.

Maybe it's just me, but I need all the positive mental energy I can maintain.
 
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michael

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Spoiler alert: I'll write this just to save someone else 3 hours.

Thanks for the write up.

I just watched Zeitgeist and thought it was very interesting. What I gathered is that it basically advocates a Utopian global society. One that abolishes all currencies and greatly reduces man's responsibilities to self while calling for equality among the masses. The film is based on several presuppositions which are more easily disproved than proved.

How can removing money be beneficial to man? Without a price system that signals to producers so that they know how much individuals consume how can they claim peoples needs will be met by some magical zeitgeist?

The absolute necessity of the price system is a simple concept outlined by preeminent economist Ludwig Von Mises in his writings "Economic Calculation in the Socialist Commonwealth" and later "Socialism, an Economic and Sociological Analysis" and expanded one by others including Friedrich Hayek and Murray N Rothbard.

It is a simple concept if you read works by these people. In history we only need to look at the USSR, Mao's China, East Germany, Democratic Kampuchea, Cuba, Venezuela and North Korea to see what happens when the price system is eliminated and replaced by rationing. Food and medicine shortages result and hundreds of millions die.

The opening premise is that genetics determine one's ability to adapt to life; however the range of adaptation depends greatly on environmental factors. Its these predetermining factors that explain all negative human behaviors. Since behavior is a product of environment combined with genetics, no one is truly accountable for his actions.

This is another crazy assertion which when you accept the logical conclusion that free will exists and as they admit one is influenced by their environment, if one's environment is causing them to make bad choices they are more than capable of moving into a more positive environment.

The movie then discussed a history of the world's economies along with their emergence into the current global system, all of which is explained from a singular viewpoint. The film spends almost an hour defining capitalism only to demonize it and it's supporters. Holding true to the theory that no one is accountable for their actions, capitalist are sympathetically viewed as mentally impaired (movie's stated viewpoint, not mine).

No doubt their definition will confused capitalism (private ownership AND control of means of production) with statism, socialism/corporatism and communism. Whilst they deride the billions of people who endeavor to trade between each other in a system that resembles capitalism as impaired they probably follow it up by making a flawed case that 'benevolent' planners in charge of their zeitgeist have infinite wisdom.

The plot continues by showing how the planet is being exploited by those who greedily choose to build their lives on the backs of the destitute. It exposes what is perceived to be the problem with the current consumption rate of global resources, then mockingly questions the decision making abilities of capitalist.

Again the makers of this film show they lack an understanding of simple economic theory. They arrogantly suggest the collective knowledge and decision making abilities of close to 6 billion people worldwide is less than a handful of 'benevolent' planners.

Blaming capitalism for the uneven playing field that exists demonstrates lazy logic, conveniently they forget an immense number of tariffs, trade restrictions and manipulation of currencies not to mention racist institutions like India's caste system and direct military intervention by powerful states that has destabilised so many nations. Deliberately confusing capitalism with statism, socialism and statism is yet another act of intellectual dishonesty the film makers commit.

A model of the proposed Utopian world is then shown and explained. Of course, individual happiness on a global scale is assumed. The society functions primarily by using 97% mechanical automation to address their daily needs. A global network is established to monitor various regions and corrects any logistical problems.

Again they show extreme arrogance by suggesting their system can ensure individual happiness better than one that puts an individual in charge of their own life and that a 'global network' that has the power to exercise control over people can be a positive thing.

This automation they call for, surely it must be powered by resources they deride capitalists as wasting. Surely it come to fruition through the sharing of knowledge, how can this knowledge be shared without a price system that incentives people serving others?

Do they offer a disclaimer that their system would almost certainly lead to sloth and prohibit man from making numerous breakthroughs in medicine, materials, energy production and transfer and more areas that promise to provide another huge leap forward in living standards?

The movie concludes by indicating that we are at the precipice of global catastrophe and that change must occur. This is symbolized when the mostly docile, yet massive world population face off against police powers who are the paid protectors of capitalist. Rather than resorting to all out violence, the world's population refuses to play by the established rules and voluntarily discards all money.

Once again in concluding that police are protecting capitalists they confuse a system that incentives sharing, peaceful cooperation and ingenuity with a sick system of socialism and corporatism that pervades today.

My conclusion is that this film was interesting because it presented a philosophy which seems to be permeating many cultures. My OPINION is that the film's message is misleading because it takes some truths then mixes them with broad accusations in order to support their premise. Although their reasoning appears sound at first, it can be easily rebutted if viewed objectively.

I agree, it is certainly interesting to see some people hold these views you outlined. Based on your write up the film relies on a series of false definitions, baseless accusations and a distinct lack of fact to seize on peoples opposition to socialism and corporatism in order to fuel an attempt for another move to a marxian society.

People who are interested in viewing this film would ultimately be better served by learning the real definition of capitalism so they do not confuse it with statism, socialism or corporatism. They would be better served by reading up on the economic calculation problem to understand why doing away with money is fanciful and destructive. They'd be better of learning the distinction between inflation (monetary expansion) and the resulting price increases which people often muddle and once they've learned that then learning how monetary expansion creates business cycles would be wise.

That people allow themselves to be dumbed down by movies like this is a great shame and is a reflection on the lack of critical skills most people posses. I fear that works like this and others which blame capitalism for the crisises caused by bastardised versions of capitalism across the world will be the fuel that rockets great nations decades backwards into the destructive grip of socialism.









Relative to Zeitgeist, where do I begin?

Is there anything in those movies that won't IMPEDE your attempt to stay in the Fastlane?

Again, maybe it's just me, but those movies (and the million others online) that have the basic theme of "They" are really in control (Not YOU!), etc. Just SAP every ounce of motivation out of me.

Although it is very possible that aliens or reptiles or the Illuminati or the Bilderbergs do, in fact, run the world...what is me watching a video about it going to accomplish?

It's really hard for me to feel "positive" after watching 99% of these films.

IMHO, these films propagate just one additional "slow lane" idea that someone else/something else is the cause of my non success/non happiness....but, instead of it being "the man"...it's a 6 foot reptilian Illuminati.

100% Agree.











We all are given a choice to be who we want to be. In America we can wake up in the morning and choose to be who we are. We have the ability to pursue our own dreams, our own happiness.

What makes me happy doesn't necessarily make my neighbor happy or their neighbor. The film talks about this country is made up of all kinds of different people. We don't have black problems or jew problems or hispanic problems but we have human problems. That is fine to state but we have to also realize that all humans are different. What I choose to pursue and what makes me happy is not the same as what my sister chooses to do, even though we were both brought up under the same roof, had the same influential parents and teachers and friends in the community.

I want to make millions. My friend doesn't need or want a lot of money and wants to be in the Army for the rest of his life. I have another friend who likes to sit on the couch and watch TV. He knows he can do other things but is perfectly content.

The film assumes all people want the same things in life and can all live together in harmony once we remove money from the equation.

Exactly, the subjective nature of value highlights yet another fallacy in the movies reasoning. In a system where people are not free to pursue their individual needs it is impossible to assume individual happiness on a global scale as the film does.
 

TK1

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Stuff like The Secret is like religion etc.

For any intelligent and logically thinking person it's clear that it's food for the masses to make them feel good etc.

Nevertheless it's senseless to argue with anybody in the world about religion, The Secret, music taste or whatever.

Either you are on the first side or the second, or third etc. whatever...waste of energy ;-)
 

Gonzosan

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The Secret is good and works, but it should have focused more on telling people to take action. Visualization works.. not just imagining what you want to be but actually being OBSESSED with your vision and constantly thinking about how to make it happen. It is advice from friend I got in 12th grade. We were classmates but he already had a successful company and somehow he gave the similar advice to the Secret..


I agree with this. The thing that pisses me off about people who rag on "the Secret" is that they always say "well I can't just think my way to riches". Well no kidding. I can sit in my place all day and wish a million dollars would rain inside my room, but it just wont happen. I think the secret is great, because it gets people to think positively. If you actually paid attention to what they're saying, they want you to keep that goal in your head, and make your way towards getting it. They never say "just think it, and it will come to you". No, they want you to think about what you want, even if you don't have a clue how to get it, just keep it in your head. Then slowly start working that way. You'll take a bunch of turns, and fail often, but as long as you keep your spirits up and know that these are just tests, eventually you'll get what you want. Just hate when they bash The Secret because they say stupid things like "I'm going to make wishes and that's all it takes". The Secret isn't anything new. It's just reworded and marketed towards a bigger audience. Many people long long before that came up with that, and honestly it doesn't take a genius to figure out. Read "Think and Grow Rich", that's the "original" secret. I've seen all the Zeitgeist movies as well, although those make me want to kill someone and I often feel depressed after watching them. They really do convey that image that it's hopeless. Anyways all these books do is motivate you, but they're nothing to scoff at. It may be trivial to do, but most people do the complete opposite. Whether you believe in it or not, it works that way. Have you ever had a crap day and think "figures, when it rains it pours". I think the way you look at things makes a HUGE difference in how you live and how you take on challenges. One guy may be working as a janitor and hate his life, another may look at it as a care free job that helps him relax. Anyways, sometimes watching this stuff really puts things into perspective again. A sharp mind focused on a goal will get accomplished eventually.
 
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