Learning to Program is STUPID! (or SMART?!)

[Inuwashi10]

Learning to write good sales copy is like turning your computer into an ATM.

What do you mean by sales copy? This topic is something I need to hear because I want to get an app out there, I don't know any programming but I was very willing to learn it to develop my app. Sounds like theres another way though.

 

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[dknise]

Lol I have to chime in again... :smilielol:


If you're looking to cut corners because you want to make your millions tomorrow instantly, and aren't interested in learning your product, I suggest the following business models:

1) Your local lottery
2) Amway Global / Quixtar
3) Avon
4) Beachbody

All have great support groups for people that just want to sell sell sell and could care less about the product. Yes I've been to Amway events, and yes a lot of the comments on this forum remind me of the people I met there. Fully focused on making money fast and not a thought guys through their head about providing value to their customers.



I get that the point of the thread is "if you don't know how to program now... don't start, outsource," but I still strongly believe that if your product IS software you should know your product inside and out. That isn't even just for software, if you create shoes, a health supplement, or run a chain of coffee houses, you should know your product inside and out. Maybe I should post my inbox with all the requests to fix botched outsourcing jobs on here... I get on average 5 per day. Trust me, if you don't have a working knowledge of coding, chances are you won't be able to know if your coder is doing good work or not.

Key in point:
If you don't want to understand software, don't make it your business. You will fail.

 

[healthstatus]

Lol I have to chime in again... :smilielol:

if at first you don't succeed.....

If you're looking to cut corners because you want to make your millions tomorrow instantly, and aren't interested in learning your product, I suggest the following business models:

1) Your local lottery
2) Amway Global / Quixtar
3) Avon
4) Beachbody

All have great support groups for people that just want to sell sell sell and could care less about the product. Yes I've been to Amway events, and yes a lot of the comments on this forum remind me of the people I met there. Fully focused on making money fast and not a thought guys through their head about providing value to their customers.

I have not suggested this anywhere in the thread.

I get that the point of the thread is "if you don't know how to program now... don't start, outsource," but I still strongly believe that if your product IS software you should know your product inside and out. That isn't even just for software, if you create shoes, a health supplement, or run a chain of coffee houses, you should know your product inside and out. Maybe I should post my inbox with all the requests to fix botched outsourcing jobs on here... I get on average 5 per day. Trust me, if you don't have a working knowledge of coding, chances are you won't be able to know if your coder is doing good work or not.

Key in point:
If you don't want to understand software, don't make it your business. You will fail.

So if someone is new to the game, how long before they will be able to have the knowledge you recommend to be able to create a solid bug free project?

On the INSIDERS Call I am hosting May 10th, I am going to help people learn how to select a good provider when they outsource, which I believe is the real problem, not the inability to write code.

 

[PopEmersen]

....how to select a good provider when they outsource, which I believe is the real problem, not the inability to write code.

That is the real problem. As someone who has hired several devs, I totally agree.

 

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[dknise]

if at first you don't succeed.....

I have not suggested this anywhere in the thread.

Nah all you old-timer regulars are fine. I haven't had the time to post much but mannnn are there a lot of get rich quick junkies with "million dollar ideas" floating around recently.

iSo if someone is new to the game, how long before they will be able to have the knowledge you recommend to be able to create a solid bug free project?

I joined Microsoft within 6 months of picking up my first programming book. It's only been about 3 years now and I've already sold an insane amount of code and have my big baby project in the works.

I know I've said this before, but there's a difference between being an online store or blog who's content is not software, and attempted to come out with a product that is software.

I'll even bring it back home for a little story about my life this past few weeks...:

I currently have an outstanding offer pre-revenue for my business that would complete my fastlane. I'm not selling because I know I can get revenue coming in and I know the company will be worth 50 times more. The investment company consists of a board of people with access to a substantial amount of cash to pick up businesses they feel have huge potential. Because I'm refusing to sell while in beta, naturally they attempted to outsource a solution.

I am not even kidding with this... last Tuesday I took a conference call on Skype with a member of the board and their outsource development team located in India. They continued to state that what I am attempting to do is literally impossible and demanded I hand over my code for free so they can see how I did it. I was laughing hysterically. Huge portions of what I do can't be done with frameworks and custom solutions had be coded from scratch and added to existing technology. If someone coded the existing technology... you can code the extensions you need... the outsource team was treating the existing technology like divine intervention from god haha.

In the last few weeks, I also attempted to work with a friend who wanted a mobile app coded. His original requirements list would have taken two days to implement, but when all was said and done I was looking at a months worth of work and told him I couldn't commit to that type of schedule. The technology was HTML5 hybrid apps with a cloud service backend. The guy couldn't even write a Hello, World! app in HTML. As I would tell him and his designer what they would need to get the job done code wise, they constantly consulted other peeps on it and came back with the dumbest statements... like why I had coded the custom camera interface in native Java and Objective C, when "their boy" said it should be PHP and MySQL. They had zero comprehension of software requirements, development cycles, technologies, scope of adding additional functionality, cost of the servers, anything. They shouldn't have been attempting to outsource their idea... they should have never gone through with it in the first place, cause it's going to turn out to be a complete dud product. It's the same story with all of their other prior ventures too, which is why I was willing to step in and take the tech side from them as long as it didn't take too long.

While they're outsourcing project after project and watching them crash and burn repeatedly, I'm sitting on a truly innovative platform in beta that I was able to execute on because of my coding knowledge. Both of those guys claimed they could do what I did just by outsourcing. I know for a fact they are wrong haha. Unless you can afford to pay for a good programmer ($90-150 an hour), the option of outsourcing a great software product is slim to none.


Andddd my last point will be this... I started at Microsoft through an Indian outsourcing company as a vendor. I will forever remember the conversation where they asked me why I am so difficult by continually asking questions and arguing about things. All they wanted me to do was come in to work so they could bill for hours. I was asking questions and being critical of choices because I cared about the final product. I challenge someone to found an outsourcer that truly cares about the quality of your product, which is supposed to be the core of your company. You're a one night stand to them and they could care less as long as they get paid. Truth.

On the INSIDERS Call I am hosting May 10th, I am going to help people learn how to select a good provider when they outsource, which I believe is the real problem, not the inability to write code.

I hope these guys are JUST looking to go online with their non-software based company.

 

[BloB]

Knowing what's going on in your business is always good and code is part of your business. Good managers can confront coders when they say that it would take X hours to do a certain job or when it's time to decide for a specific technology over others. Knowing your business is always good, coding is not stupid at all.

That said, I hate coding

 

[brumaire]

I recently made a post urging people who want to run a software company but don't want to learn any code to at least read a book or something on software requirements. This forum's idea that you don't have to know ANYTHING about your product is insane. I keep hearing and "hire a good team to do it," but truly innovative projects, like Lgallion said, that will provide big market value aren't cheap. To develop a truly good product could cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to hire a team.

Also, I'm one of the only people here that's been to a programming interview. You know who the stupidest people to interview with were? Recruiters. They knew absolutely nothing about software and therefore shouldn't have been hiring for software. How do you know what languages your programmer needs to know if you don't know what languages are available? If you expect to just toss that to any developer and let them decide, you just killed your entire product.


Show me. Prove it. Who's out there starting hugely successful software companies with a limited budget and can't read a single line of code? I'm not saying become a Bill Gates or an expert in it... but at least be a Steve Jobs at it. He wasn't an amazing coder, but he knew enough so that he knew who to hire, what he was looking for, and how to tell them what to make.

This whole "I'm too lazy to learn anything about a product I want to make and everyone else can do it all no questions asked" is the most absurd thing I have ever, freaking, heard, in my entire life.

The types of clients you guys on the forum who are touting this are a software developers worse nightmare.

Sincerely,
- A professional software developer.

Sophia Amoruso, Gurbaksh Chahal to name a few

 

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[dknise]

Sophia Amoruso, Gurbaksh Chahal to name a few

Epic facepalm.

Sophia did not have a software business, she utilized and online store for her products. The product in mind, was not software.

I wasn't able to find if Gurbaksh had any knowledge of coding, but his product was software, and if he created a company when he was 16 my bets are that the dude is a phenomenal coder.

#stillwaiting

 

[brumaire]

Epic facepalm.

Sophia did not have a software business, she utilized and online store for her products. The product in mind, was not software.

I wasn't able to find if Gurbaksh had any knowledge of coding, but his product was software, and if he created a company when he was 16 my bets are that the dude is a phenomenal coder.

#stillwaiting

Gurbaksh Chahal cannot even write a line of code.

Check out his Entreprenuer Online Video on YouTube a out overcoming obstacles. He outsourced his first technology need for 30k to a British programmer. Now he hires MIT Phd's.

Again, he "sucks at math and can't program at all"

 

[DarkZero]

Didn't even know about Chahal. Will check out his book.

But what do you guys say about programmers that got big with apps such as Allen Wong? He was coding smaller programs on high school but eventually made high grossing iOS apps. Is that just something where we group him in with the likes of the Instagram or Tumblr guys?

I guess what you guys are saying is that the chances of success with coding are limited unless you come up with an amazing idea and are an amazing coder in order to execute on the idea, such as Allen Wong. With that said, I think someone like him would agree but would also say it's important to learn it if you want to create something. But I also think it is much more difficult to have a breakout app in the marketplace because of saturation and so many huge teams of programmers these days.

All in all, thread is pretty discouraging to me as being someone who is trying to learn coding

 

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[healthstatus]

All in all, thread is pretty discouraging to me as being someone who is trying to learn coding

Look, self taught programming is useful, you can use it to write a script to extract data from a log file, export data from one place to another, modify a script to add a page. All these things can be done in 2-3 months time and focused effort. Don't expect to be a good enough programmer to handle peoples CREDIT CARDS and personal information, and your first few attempts at writing a more advanced system will end up looking like the car going down the street that has been painted with 57 cans of spray paint. These are things not to trifle with and if you screw it up, you are DONE.

The expectation that you can read some books, watch some videos over a couple months time and learn to code at a professional level where you can write a business grade application that is hacker proof and substantially bug proof is a FAIRY TALE.

 

[smarty]

Do you SEE the difference????

I am a programmer myself and I agree with what you say. To learn programming requires a lot of passion, a lot of time and a stone head (patience), so the progress is very slow and might take months or years.

But I think the reason many people want to learn programming so they "can code the app themselves", is the lack or money or other means to overcome that, and hey... knowing how to program an app sounds cool, right? Well, depends on your specific case :smx4:

The down side of learning how to program from scratch just because you have an (not market prof) app idea, is that by the time you learn to make a decent app, you will get many other app ideas and will make a mess out of it if you do not have a strong work discipline :dupe:

In my case, I do all the programming for apps and websites while my sister and brother do the other stuff and it's working good, so neither one of us needs a regular job. For the time being it's not passive income and we don't have full control so I'm working hard to resolve that (and that's a programmer's headache)

 

[qewrtyass]

i think for some people, its a form of procrastination.
its a justification, illusion that someone is working out towards their fastlane.

'yea im doing it, im learning to code, to become millionaire, i took action'.

same as reading how-to-rich book thinking you're one step closer to million dollar by reading it.

for someone tech savvy and talented and already doing code from early life, this could be an action.

but for some, they need to reassess and rearrange their to do list strategically, to get to the point, is learning to code and writing code by my self will get me to fastlane faster?

 

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[maxlane]

I never managed to wrap my mind around advertising. Although I'm a very good programmer...

 

[DarkZero]

Look, self taught programming is useful, you can use it to write a script to extract data from a log file, export data from one place to another, modify a script to add a page. All these things can be done in 2-3 months time and focused effort. Don't expect to be a good enough programmer to handle peoples CREDIT CARDS and personal information, and your first few attempts at writing a more advanced system will end up looking like the car going down the street that has been painted with 57 cans of spray paint. These are things not to trifle with and if you screw it up, you are DONE.

The expectation that you can read some books, watch some videos over a couple months time and learn to code at a professional level where you can write a business grade application that is hacker proof and substantially bug proof is a FAIRY TALE.

Yeah I agree. To make the next big industry favorite would not happen. For someone to learn it for hobby purposes, and make their own grocery list app for personal use is achievable. But to make the next sustainable instagram or twitter is a completely different ball game. There are too many extra resources involved.

 

[healthstatus]

OK, all you guys that said you were going to learn programming and create your website, how is that going for you? Are you done? Making any money yet?

In May I did a webinar for the INSIDERS on how to outsource to Elance. My project was a smartphone app. As of today, the iPhone version is live and approved, the iPad version is in review from Apple and should be available by the weekend, and the Android version is in the initial debugging/tweaking stages. I outsourced the UI, and all the programming (join the INSIDERS if you want to watch the recorded webinar on how to do these steps), while that was going on I worked on marketing, page setups on my website, and getting some emails put together. Total cost was about $2500 for the IOS versions to be done. In the next 90 days on the iTunes store I should make all my money back even if I don't get selected as a new & noteworthy, but with my email campaign and other marketing tactics I have an above average shot at that.

HealthStatus HealthTracker App

Really, if you were one of the ones that said you were going to learn to program, tell us where you are at.

 

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[dknise]

Really, if you were one of the ones that said you were going to learn to program, tell us where you are at.

If they had done a substantial app with serious infrastructure such as MyFitnessPal, they would still be decades away while saving up $50k to outsource it.

A several page UI that could be thrown together through some basic tutorials of PhoneGap, I sure hope they have some progress haha.

 

[Appono]

That's a pretty ignorant point of view, tbh. Learning to code is helpful and you can be capable of producing clean, 'professional' code in months.

 

[healthstatus]

That's a pretty ignorant point of view, tbh. Learning to code is helpful and you can be capable of producing clean, 'professional' code in months.

Obviously you read the entire thread to make such an insightful comment.

 

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[libertad1312]

Wow interesting discussion and even after 13 pages there are still different opinions.
I would need a program for myself and when I did search for it I have realized that many other people would need the same and now I wonder what to do.
I am pretty excited about it and afraid that somebody else will steal the idea, but since I don't have any knowledge I will need help.

Let's say we have a few different websites who all work similar. The website is build like a dating website. A few pictures have to be uploaded and a lot of fields have to be filled with information. Now since people have much more than one profile and want to use similar websites as well, it would save them a lot of time if they could just transfer the data from one page to another without copy/pasting it manually.

I don't know much about how to build a tool like this, but I imagine that it is one of the easier things to program. I would like to find a cheap programer from a cheap country to do this, but then if this guy is not completely stupid why should he ever do this for me and not just for himself once I tell him about the need?

 

[healthstatus]

I don't know much about how to build a tool like this, but I imagine that it is one of the easier things to program.

From your thumbnail sketch, you would be wrong. Talking to multiple different websites (let's assume they don't have documented API's) and passing that information to them is difficult and every time one of the websites changes its methods you have to change your program.

I would like to find a cheap programer from a cheap country to do this, but then if this guy is not completely stupid why should he ever do this for me and not just for himself once I tell him about the need?

No, what you is a good programmer at a reasonable rate. Good programmers have built their reputations over time by programming, not by stealing other peoples ideas. Programmers like to program, they don't like to market and advertise.

 

[libertad1312]

From your thumbnail sketch, you would be wrong. Talking to multiple different websites (let's assume they don't have documented API's) and passing that information to them is difficult and every time one of the websites changes its methods you have to change your program.

Well for the beginning it would even be enough for just two websites. There is a huge need, but theoretically this could be used for a few smaller websites.
the methods remain the same over a long period. Maybe every half a year one of both websites will change a few fields like. What does make this so hard to program? I probably could even offer this service if I do it manually. is just copy and past, sometimes the sections are named different, but content is the same at the end. but after we went to every possible option once, it can be made to a rule and be applied for the future. this takes a person 2-3minutes per page, but there are people with hundred of pages. this work could be done by somebody who doesnt even understand the language. he just know to copy the content from field 1 on website X to field 2 on website Y. after half a year i would have to tell him that field 1 on website X is now field 2 on website Y. even this could be profitable, but people probably wouldnt like to give their passwords away.

No, what you is a good programmer at a reasonable rate. Good programmers have built their reputations over time by programming, not by stealing other peoples ideas. Programmers like to program, they don't like to market and advertise.

okay, this makes sense.

 

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[Milkanic]

Well for the beginning it would even be enough for just two websites. There is a huge need, but theoretically this could be used for a few smaller websites.
the methods remain the same over a long period. Maybe every half a year one of both websites will change a few fields like. What does make this so hard to program? I probably could even offer this service if I do it manually. is just copy and past, sometimes the sections are named different, but content is the same at the end. but after we went to every possible option once, it can be made to a rule and be applied for the future. this takes a person 2-3minutes per page, but there are people with hundred of pages. this work could be done by somebody who doesnt even understand the language. he just know to copy the content from field 1 on website X to field 2 on website Y. after half a year i would have to tell him that field 1 on website X is now field 2 on website Y. even this could be profitable, but people probably wouldnt like to give their passwords away.

Take this class so you understand how websites work. You can't outsource what you don't understand to a basic level.
https://www.udemy.com/coding-for-entrepreneurs/

You want to share user profiles in a database with multiple websites sharing that database.
Something like this:
https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/ref/contrib/sites/

 

[Appono]

Obviously you read the entire thread to make such an insightful comment.

I did, lol. I read a lot of assumptions made on your part. I understand why you think what you do, and I understand you're wrong.

 

[Brentnal]

If i can develop websites does that mean i can do seo,internetmarketing,eccomerce?
Or is each a speciality that you really need to learn?

I ask this question because i got a friend who is a boss at making websites he can teach me if i want to.

 

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[Nick]

Maybe every half a year one of both websites will change a few fields like. What does make this so hard to program?

A website does not change its code only when you see that "stuff has modified on the webpage". This comes back to what dknise said, if you don't understand how software works it's hard to assess the difficulty of an idea. A website can look identical on the front end while the source code changes and your scraper will still break, so you will need to contantly update it. You don't know how often a website changes its source code just by looking at how the website looks and assessing that's just a couple of fields per year.

Also, there are free browser plugins that can achieve what you want to do (ex, if you want to fill a form with name, surname, address, etc.. you can save those in your browser and it will automatically autofill with your predefined values)

 

[Brentnal]

They learn how to code because they have no capital.

Exactly when you know code you can make money without having to have capital.

 

[healthstatus]

Exactly when you know code you can make money without having to have capital.

So for three years while you learn, you still have no capital.

 

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[Tom.V]

I finally have a biased opinion to add to this thread, and I totally agree, learning to program is not necessary. Having learned the basics of programming, I am becoming a better strategic planner and communicator with my programmers. I have dealt with both competent, and incompetent programmers in the past few months, so I now know how to cherry pick. Communication and competence really are the key points here, if you can effectively communicate what you need done to a competent individual or team, there is no need to learn to program at all.

Now that I think about it, the guy who originally inspired me to even consider ANYTHING fastlane was a man who ran a team of programmers for industrial applications like underground gas tank diagnostics and analytics to make sure no leaks were prevalent. He said he never wrote a single line of code in his life, but he ran a super team of some of the best programmers. He knew how to plan out the project, outline all necessary components for it, and set realistic goals to be achieved over a certain time frame. Really smart guy, definitely fastlane. I believe the last job he mentioned to me he was doing for $5M+ which took 6-9 months to complete. Looking back, I am trying to emulate him in my current position. Be organized, be effective at communication, and be effective at finding the right people. Then, learning to program really is stupid.

 

[F430]

Just wanna chip-in here, I havent read through the entire thread but I believe the discussion is on whether it is a good time investment to learn to program yourself. If so, this is my take on things:

hell no.

About 4months ago I started a blog (which Im monetizing now) and didn't know jack-shit about programming. I wanted to learn it, until I decided that it would be a lot smarter to outsource the programming to someone for $300 via oDesk and then focus on content development myself.

Worked out great.