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Vigilante

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@Kak @Vigilante

I quite enjoyed the debate on capitalism!

@Vigilante many of your words remind of communist propaganda. It alludes to workers being exploited by capitalists and wage slavery.

The existence of inequality does not imply or prove some are being taken advantage of, nor that profit is being created by the owner/boss at the expense of the worker.

Just because one has a direct boss, does not exclude serving themselves, as long as one has the choice of whom to call boss.

There are many companies even, that many people will find it a privilege to be able to work for. Which further adds support to the notion that working for a boss/company can very well coincide with serving one's self.

Obviously when one is the owner, they will be serving themselves even more so, but that does not mean a worker cannot also serve themselves.

And thus, it is indeed a win win situation, both for the employer, and the employee, even if the employer generates profit from the employee's time and labor.
Win – win can’t reconcile the fact that 80% of Americans consistently state that they hate their job. If most felt it was a win-win that percentage would be near 0% and nobody would ever quit their job. The vast majority of Americans, typically represented around 80% in surveys over the last several decades have routinely reported they hate their jobs, hate the company they work for, and wish they could do something differently.

To whom does that sound like a win-win arrangement? Eight out of every 10 employees routinely states that it is not win-win. You have to objectively look at data over theory.
 

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Win relative to not having a job. Of course the extent to which someone "wins” is relative.

100% of your 80% are still showing up for their job because they are looking out for their own self-interest. If they had a better option they would take it. The fact of the matter is, they are going to LOSE if they lose their job.

Even if they loathe their job, it is still unquestionably beneficial to their well being. Their behavior patterns of continuing to show up proves they know it too.
 
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Vigilante

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And it starts to unravel.

Now, you're asked to suspend reality and buy the hypothesis.

Fact : 80% of people hate their jobs.
Hypothesis : They don't really, or they wouldn't go.

Translation: "Don't listen to what I tell you about my job. Listen to what the experts tell you I think about my job."

Now, we've triangulated the win-win ONLY relative to vs. NOT having a job. So the value exchange is not their time for their compensation (we've already established they can get that in ANY country/system). It's only a win because they're not unemployed. Got it. 27 minutes of discussion and a full page on the forum only to get to the point where the win-win is only relative to if they were unemployed. Win-win at the end of a (financial) gun. Because you can't get around the fact that they HATE their captors. Until now, you thought they had Stockholm where they perceived they were in a win-win with their benefactor. Now faced with the reality that they really don't like the dynamic, we have to reframe it.

And now, the degree of the win-win is "relative." Translation : it's exactly what I proposed. We went from it being a win for everyone to now being MORE of a WIN and LESS of a win depending on which role you are in. You're only a semantical word choice away from winners and less winners.

My work here is nearly done.

Win-win is now reframed as "well, they don't have any better options. THATS what makes it win-win."
Mind Your Business says... "but what if we showed them they DO have better options? What if the essence of capitalism is they DO have better options? What if they just don't know what those options are, because the system... needs them in the roles they are cast in? "

There's a reason MJ's latest book is subtitled Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Entrepreneurship. It's not about being a servant the rest of your life. It's about breaking the caste system. In the words of Mind Your Business, it's about quitting your job to start YOUR life.

What if we just showed them how to become UNSCRIPTED? They, and I, will NEVER accept that they don't have a better option.

(and with that, he drops the mic and awaits the judgment).
 
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I am not sure what's "unraveling" here... But it isn't my argument.

I am actually shocked we have had no one weigh in on who won this debate! We need votes to determine who owes the $20.

My gain is not at the expense of anyone. It is at the gain of my employees. It is at the gain of my customers. It is at the gain of my investors. That is the true essence of capitalism.
 
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If they did then collectively they would rise up and take the owner out so that there was an equitable distribution of income. They are putting the owners interest first and trading that for a lesser conferred benefit. The yield their labor to the owners interests in exchange for a paycheck. If their own personal interest was first they could never work in that system.

which is why in socialism they all make the same. In communism they are forced to work for that wage. In capitalism, they work for a lesser wage but have the opportunity to pursue life, liberty, and happiness and are rewarded in association with their risk.
There are many businesses where the employees make more than the owners.

What if your restaurant only made $30k a year and your top chef is paid $70k? How do you see that scenario?

What about when an app startup hires a bunch of developers for $100k and the owners make no money for 3 years and take no salary?
 

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There are many businesses where the employees make more than the owners.

What if your restaurant only made $30k a year and your top chef is paid $70k? How do you see that scenario?

What about when an app startup hires a bunch of developers for $100k and the owners make no money for 3 years and take no salary?
At first I thought the first statement is insanity, but actually I just remembered talking to one of my old bosses..

We talked about entrepreneurship (he owned a retail store) and I just had to look at the numbers of the biz, he pulled in about $10k for the store I worked at and owned 2 others, one pulled in about 90 or 100k & not sure about the other one

He actually ended up having a loss despite clearing 6 figz in a month which blew my mind. Super nice guy, he joked about making no money and said ''atleast you guys get paid!''

YIKES :wideyed:
 

sparechange

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I think @Vigilante won the debate here.

While it is a ''win'' to work at a job, as vig mentioned people are trapped. Not everyone has the skill set / mindset to achieve success in entrepreneurship, as we all know it's filled with tons of failure and there are people in the world that are risk adverse. Being a business owner can be extremely stressful aswell, and a better alternative can be a steady job, a safe paycheck every 2nd Friday of the week. So I know Kak will say, well.. then it's a win for the employee be working for the boss right? Yes and no.

There are lots of crappy jobs out there that people do because of they aren't capable of doing others, for example, an older person in their 50's or 60's that works at a factory assembling some type of product. In that situation they might have no other choice but to do that job, personally I have met dozens of elderly people with no other options available to them, it's one of the saddest and heart breaking things witnessed in my life. Also he mentioned the $4hr per job. In the past I've struggled to find work here in Vancouver and would gladly accept a $4hr job, why? Because I was unable to get any work and needed to feed myself, that is with having the knowledge of TMF & Unscripted tucked away in my brain, can you imagine people that have no concept of entrepreneurship combined with the modern day brainwashing of ''starting a business is risky'' and ''90% of business's fail'' and so on?

Now you can argue that a person can get better skills, or just quit their job, but with a small job market it can be quite difficult to even find steady work, just speaking from my own personal experience and from others I have met at my slave jobs.

Pulled off googled, the unemployment rates for 2019 in the United States (happy America day btw :party::party:) was 3.6% (11,808,000) Now I'm not sure how those numbers workout, if they collect welfare or just cant find work, but that is a problem. Some of those people that can't find work will need to slave at some crappy job that they hate, sure they can be thankful an income is being produced to pay rent by their boss, although it's still a form of slavery to which they have ''no choice''

With all that being said, the world NEEDS more capitalism, stop getting crap from China, create more jobs locally and empower the people in the best places on earth, USA & Canada

donaldtrumpap11_hdv.jpg
 
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Inequality is natural. Hierarchies (in earning power, skills, mindset, risk tolerance) are natural.

80% of people hating their jobs is regretful, but doesn't seem to change their mind. There are enough opportunities for most people to smart a small service business for example, like pressure washing / lawn mowing (I've heard about people scooping dog shit as a side hustle and clearing 5 figures monthly).

The biggest hinderance in upward mobility for people in this society are draconian tax / biz ownership / licensing laws. Not the fault of Capitalism, which btw is a word created by Socialists to discredit the natural tendency of humans to freely trade goods and services.

Therefore, I vote for @Kak .
 

Andy Black

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I’ve not listened to this episode yet.

The biggest hinderance in upward mobility for people in this society are draconian tax / biz ownership / licensing laws.
I would guess the biggest hindrance is that people don’t believe they can do it. Everything else is just a problem to solve, but if people don’t believe they can solve problems (or don’t realise that hurdles are just stepping stones in disguise) then they’ll never start.
 

Vigilante

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There are many businesses where the employees make more than the owners.

What if your restaurant only made $30k a year and your top chef is paid $70k? How do you see that scenario?

What about when an app startup hires a bunch of developers for $100k and the owners make no money for 3 years and take no salary?
I have someone working for me right now on a project. My short term ROI is a loss, but that’s only tolerable because my long term ROI on her labor is 10,000x. The fact that I am upside down today is simply part of my educated risk towards an ROI she will never share in. There’s nothing wrong with that. It’s capitalism. But we are not equal winners simply because my investment pays a calculated, deferred payout. Don’t feel sorry for me because my calculated loss is her nominal gain. She’s a write off, and a dispensable variable expense. The premise of "at will employment" in the United States means that workers can be terminated at any time, for any reason or no reason.

The W2 employee that invented the post-it note for 3M got zero other than his agreed paycheck. He’s the equivelant of your programmer. He was due nothing. That’s ok. He was working for a paycheck. His employer owned his output. That’s ok. He WASNT working first for his interest. He was getting paid to work for THEIRS. Also OK. But his self interest was subordinate to theirs.

Capitalism provides a mechanism to flip the SCRIPT.

Surely you’re not suggesting your employees being subservient to their paychecks is good for them long term. My BEST days are the days when my employees break the script, leave the safety of the nest and learn to fly on their own.

My employees can earn 10x what I am paying them. And they should. And some will. And some won’t. But to propose that it’s benevolent to be upside down early is not because you’re a philanthropist. It’s because you’re a calculated capitalist. We don’t have to pretend it’s because we’re a charity and they’re the beneficiaries. That would be the anthesis of Capitalism and not intellectually honest.
 
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Vigilante

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I’ve not listened to this episode yet.



I would guess the biggest hindrance is that people don’t believe they can do it. Everything else is just a problem to solve, but if people don’t believe they can solve problems (or don’t realise that hurdles are just stepping stones in disguise) then they’ll never start.
This. The message of The Millionaire Fastlane.
 

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Andy Black

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Debate winner vote tally as it stands!

1 Kak
1 Vigilante

Keep them coming. No hard feelings here. Just a bet at this point. :thumbsup:
I’ve never seen this style in a YouTube video. Imagine you posted this or similar and asked people to decide who they agreed with and post in the comments. If you could get initial engagement then I wonder how that would pan out? YouTube rewards engagement and watch time. On that note, maybe something like this is perfect fodder for the more argumentative factions in Facebook?
 
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Vigilante

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“I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.”

― Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
 

Vigilante

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“Do not let your fire go out, spark by irreplaceable spark in the hopeless swamps of the not-quite, the not-yet, and the not-at-all. Do not let the hero in your soul perish in lonely frustration for the life you deserved and have never been able to reach. The world you desire can be won. It exists.. it is real.. it is possible.. it's yours.”
― Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
 
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“I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.”

― Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
Now say that as an employee.

Also focus on the second half of that quote... "nor ask another man to live for mine." Isn't that what you are talking about here? Asking employees to live for our sake as entrepreneurs?

My point is, we are ALL acting in our own self-interest. Employees are self-interested by taking a job with me. Customers are self-interested by deciding my product is worth more than their money. Investors invest in my companies, not to see it grow big for the sake of growing big, but for the gain they expect, their self-interest.

I know a doctor that makes great money. He clearly loves what he does. He also thinks the organization he works for is a collection of idiots. Yet, he chooses to wilingly continue going to work despite the fact that he could afford to retire. Why? Because he is still acting in his own self-interest. There is something in it for him.

I know a retired pilot. Loved to fly. The company he flew for was constantly a topic of conversation and the bozo moves they would make. Yet, he showed up to fly that plane when they called because he was acting in his own self-interest.

Me owning a company and knowingly recognizing that my employees are benefiting from my company is not me attempting to live for the sake of another. Likewise an employee deciding to work for me is not them attempting to live for my sake.
 
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Vigilante

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Now say that as an employee.

Also focus on the second half of that quote... "nor ask another man to live for mine." Isn't that what you are talking about here? Asking employees to live for our sake as entrepreneurs?

My point is, we are ALL acting in our own self-interest. Employees are self-interested by taking a job with me. Customers are self interested by deciding my product is worth more than their money. Investors invest in my companies, not to see it grow big for the sake of growing big, but for the gain they expect.

I know a doctor that makes great money. He clearly loves what he does. He also thinks the organization he works for is a collection of idiots. Yet, he chooses to wilingly continue going to work despite the fact that he could afford to retire. Why? Because he is till acting in his own self-interest. There is something in it for him.

I know a retired pilot. Loved to fly. The company he flew for was constantly a topic of conversation and some bozo moves they would make. Yet, he showed up to fly that plane when they called because he was acting in his own self-interest.

Me owning a company and knowingly recognizing that my employees are benefiting from my company is not me attempting to live for the sake of another.
Read the quote again. You missed it.
 

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“I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.”

― Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
Ironic that before they got to Atlantis most of the people there acquired wealth by having other people work for them.

Now, as much as I would like to see @Kak have to part with some of his ill gotten capitalistic gains...he has my vote based on the podcast because the entire time my two thoughts were:
1) What is the point that @Vigilante is trying to make?
2) If I had a dollar for every time I heard “division of labor” and “communist China” I’d have MJ money.

However, I do believe @Vigilante made his point more clear in the thread here.

Now, we've triangulated the win-win ONLY relative to vs. NOT having a job.
Not quite. To use your example of China, the win-win exists because the opportunity at least exists in a capitalistic society. In a communist society, especially one such as China I would argue that 99.9% of the workers have zero chance of advancement. The win-win of capitalism is that stories exist in capitalistic economies like the one you mentioned of the McDonalds fry cook who was able to eventually own multiple franchises. In China, 52% of McDonalds business owned by the state, so unless you are born into privilege you can likely never own nor control a franchise.

Mind Your Business says... "but what if we showed them they DO have better options? What if the essence of capitalism is they DO have better options? What if they just don't know what those options are, because the system... needs them in the roles they are cast in? "
This is the point I thought you were trying to get across during the podcast but never quite put it this succinctly. I even told Kyle this yesterday:

“Now, if his argument was that the US under the guise of being 100% capitalistic systemically tries to keeps certain people at a certain place in society...I can agree with that“

In closing. Based on the podcast, I agreed more with Kyle.

In this thread, I agree more with Dave and had he not hung up he may have won my vote by reframing his position like he did above. I do believe our system has failed a great many by making proclamations about the opportunity they are afforded while simultaneously conditioning 99% of them to think they are stuck.
 
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On another note!

Tomorrow we will have the United States Vice Presidential Candidate, Spike Cohen on the show.

Do you guys have any questions you want to hear in that show? I have a pretty good list, but maybe you guys can come up with some GOLD...
 

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Kyle, I just listened to the episode with your wife! Loved that one. Please have her on the show more!
 

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Kyle, I just listened to the episode with your wife! Loved that one. Please have her on the show more!
I enjoyed making that one as much as you enjoyed listening to it.

I literally just ordered her a microphone boom of her own. It was a busy week for us both. Hopefully we can find some time to sit down and do one this week. We have a lot of great topics.
 

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So I've listened to the podcast and read the follow up on here, I'm still not exactly sure what you were both arguing about, but I did enjoy the discussion :rofl: I see the whole employee/employer situation as a win/win so I think that means @Kak won in my book? Unless I haven't got it quite right. Either way it's good to hear you both having a spirited discussion!
 

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I listed to Dave and Kyle's discussion on the way to groceries today. I was a bit flabbergasted at times by some of Dave's views.

Dave, you seem to think that everyone wants to rise up from where they are. Most people, given the choice of greater responsibility and harder work, for greater pay, won't even take it. Yes every labor cog needs to be filled in every economic situation, but in my mind that is no bad thing.

Hell, I started out as a literal sandwich maker!

I vote that Kyle won this one.
 

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I listed to Dave and Kyle's discussion on the way to groceries today. I was a bit flabbergasted at times by some of Dave's views.

Dave, you seem to think that everyone wants to rise up from where they are. Most people, given the choice of greater responsibility and harder work, for greater pay, won't even take it. Yes every labor cog needs to be filled in every economic situation, but in my mind that is no bad thing.

Hell, I started out as a literal sandwich maker!

I vote that Kyle won this one.
YOU are my point. Capitalism requires sandwich makers, and that's NOT a bad thing. I think my point is the exact opposite of what your takeaway was, but that STILL means that Kyle won (in your viewpoint) if I failed to get you to see that what you posted above... every sentence you posted... was exactly my point. Even your story.

If you don't think people should be shown a path to upward mobility, go back and read UNSCRIPTED again. Not everyone will take it, but capitalism is the only system that even would provide for it.
 
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Kyle I am listening to the show you just released, and if this isn't the best interview yet (that either one of us has done).... AMAZING. Well done. You went from success to significance with today's show and just did something 99.9% of other shows have never done and will never do.

You just hit the big leagues, my friend.
 

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I will vote for their ticket. Love everything he said, and you aced this interview my friend. I actually just made a donation to their campaign because of your interview.
 
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Episode 28 is live!

Business and Financial Freedom with Spike Cohen!


The libertarian vp candidate has spoken! Enjoy folks!
 
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View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMiZMtzRf-o


Here is the video file... We were rushed getting everything started because there was a time zone screw up on one of our parts. Also, you can watch my new foam fall off of the walls... Command strips suck.
 

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