Jokes, Insults, Disrespect and More

[WheelsRCool]

Edit by ATW: This comment was made on a different thread - - and sparked a discussion.
Moved to new thread at the request of some of the participants.

You women complain too much. Just shut up and have the kid.
























JUST KIDDING!! You can put down the pitchforks and rifles

 

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[Bilgefisher]

Re: Childbirth - Is there a better way?

You take your life in your hands. It might be safer skydiving with no parachute lol.
:greenchainsaw::Guillotine:




:nopity:

 

[Russ H]

Wheels-

You've hit on something I care very much about, but don't often discuss.

We've had a lot of success on these forums talking about all kinds of things-- so I'm going to try:

Please take what I'm about to say as it's intended-- to share some feelings w/you-- NOT to call you out, put you down, or make you look bad.

If you feel any of those things while reading this, it is the shortcomings of my writing abilities, and for this, I apologize.

***********************************************************************

I grew up with a bunch of middle class white boys, who thought lots of things were funny.

They told jokes about Ni**ers, Blonds, women in general, all kinds of "stupid" minorities, those w/different sexual orientations . . .

The list was endless.

In short, they considered anyone who wasn't like them fair game to joke about.

I never found this funny, and just figured I'd spend the rest of my life grinning sheepishly, laughing at jokes I felt were bigoted and painful.

Then, by pure chance, I moved out to Northern California to escape the snows of Michigan.

And found that there were millions of people out here who didn't find these jokes funny, either.

My "buddies" in the midwest didn't understand when I tried to explain.

Some wrote me off as a nutcase, now that I was "living in the land of fruits and nuts". Others just shook their heads and asked me if I was porking guys now that I lived in San-Fran-Siss-Co.

After a few years, I gave up trying to explain how some of this "humor" is, at its root, based on FEAR. Fear of women, blacks, gays-- or anyone that is different from you.

But I still bring it up, on occasion, trying to explain.

I'm used to getting a roomful of blank stares from those who refuse to look inside themselves to see why this is funny, to them.

But I'm not talking to these folks. I can't change who they are.

I post this info on this thread, on the off chance that someone else, out there, read your post, and feels the same way when someone jokes about people different from themselves

You don't have to laugh at things you don't feel are funny.

I didn't find your comment funny, Wheels.

I'm not balling you out, or berating you.

And I wouldn't presume to change you.

But I do want you to know that even if the whole room laughs, not everyone actually finds this kind of humor funny.

Thing is-- most folks will never, ever tell you this.

-Russ H.

 

[rcardin]

Re: Childbirth - Is there a better way?

Kudo's Russ! I can see how it was meant as a joke though. Nice to see someone of true integrity int this world

 

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[phlgirl]

Re: Childbirth - Is there a better way?

Thing is-- most folks will never, ever tell you this.

Russ is right on this one.

I would have never said a word. My typical reaction to comments like these is to make a quick mental note to myself that this person is an Idiot and move on.

(just kidding…..put away your gun/knife)

It’s a little bit tougher for me in this situation, because I actually have a bit of respect (albeit premature) for the people making the comments. I don’t expect it to matter one bit but I would be lying if I said it didn’t cause me to rethink that position.

Just know that comments like these can make some people think less of you as a person – as a man. If that’s okay with you….then rock on.

peace

 

[Diane Kennedy]

Re: Childbirth - Is there a better way?

Interesting thread. I have nothing firsthand to add since we adopted. And in fact the joke is that I keep telling my son that years from now when he has his children, someone is going to have to teach me how to change a diaper. I've never done it.

I do have a comment on Russ's heartfelt discussion of "jokes" that could hurt others. Clearly, this hit a point for Russ and I know it had to do with remembering the emotion and fear at the time when his wife was in childbirth.

Russ, I wish you'd pull your comment out of this thread or copy to another. I think you made some important points. I've been offended, actually quite a bit, by comments on this forum. Most of the time it's more personal - someone asks a question, I give personal advice FOR FREE and then they want to argue. That's life. I just don't respond to those people anymore. But the ones that get me are the assumptions made about people because of skin color, gender or age. My son is brown, I'm over 50 and I'm a female business owner. Clearly, I've got 3 issues that I don't want to see jokes about and I've seen all three here. My comment to myself, though, is that this isn't my forum and so it can go anyway MJ wants to. I like the other things about it and that's enough to keep me coming back, sporadically though these days.

Maybe it's nothing you want to tackle. I don't want to sound off in this thread, but if you started another one and wanted my comments, I've got them. My concern is this forum is soon going to be "white males only need apply."

 

[kidgas]

Re: Childbirth - Is there a better way?

My 0.02 on jokes/offensive commentary: I try to weigh carefully what I say and thus comment infrequently. I try to ignore several comments and take away the positive aspects of the threads. If I offend anyone or say anything inappropriate, please let me know. I like to maintain an open mind and do not willfully attempt to write anything hurtful. One of the problems with written communication is the lack of non-verbal cues (a major detriment to the text message common these days).

Anyway, a very interesting thread. I enjoy the discussion.

 

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[Russ H]

Good points, Diane.

We have a pretty good anti-spam policy around here. So good, in fact, that the community itself polices most of it.

I'm not sure how enlightened or interested the rest of the folks on this forum would be to learning how to tell jokes or make inferences without putting down others.

But I like the idea (love it, actually). You are right-- this is one of my hot buttons. But I keep it hidden most of the time because, well, I'm in the significant minority feeling this way.

What about it folks? Any ideas on how to make our forums more tolerant and welcoming of diversity?

-Russ H.

 

[AroundTheWorld]

Sometimes doing nothing while you observe a "crime" is just as bad as doing the crime. I applaud you, Russ for bringing it up. It is disheartening to realize how much $#%&*@-ism is still a part of our culture.

I think that the online world contributes to the problem in two ways:

1) People seem to feel more courage when behind a computer screen. Start to behave in a way they never would in person.
2) It is so impersonal that often a statement or conversation is missunderstood. Sometimes it would be easy for one to feel insulted and the other to have no idea what happened. I think it is important to continue the conversation and work through it.... often, it could be nothing!

Also, there have been several circumstances lately in which the definition of a word in one person's mind is very different from the other person's idea. That can also lead to huge misunderstandings. (just what is a flip? )

One thing that has been driving me crazy of late is the assumption that a poster is a male.
I prefer if people keep it neutral unless you know for sure the poster's gender.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

My concern is this forum is soon going to be "white males only need apply."

Since we are on the topic of insults, I find this comment and what it insinuates highly insulting.

Any ideas on how to make our forums more tolerant and welcoming of diversity?
-Russ H.

The topic of financial education is what it is ... it attracts a particular group of people (and yes, most of them are men as we are about 1:4 here). If wanted to start a Mixed-Martial Arts forum, you can bet 90% of the participants would be men. The topic of a "Fastlane" relating to financial independence will naturally attract YOUNG MEN - generation Y and Z (perhaps a generation that some would argue lack respect for their elders having grown up in the internet age where anything you say is shielded in anonymity)

I believe the self-policing that everyone does here has kept this place clean for the most part. If you expect a forum to run with thousands of members and not to have issues (disagreements, bad tact, misinterpretations, comments/jokes of poor taste ) then I don't know what to tell you.

The group does a fine job of putting the offenders in their place. Others who show zero respect for the rules and the members (racial comments,politics) simply are banned.

And I will add: I believe the guy making the comments will see the err of his statement and not defend it and even apologize. Hence he will learn from the mistake. I believe that is why we all are here ... to learn, and sometimes, to learn from our bad mistakes.

 

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[Russ H]

The topic of financial education is what it is ... it attracts a particular group of people (and yes, most of them are men as we are about 1:4 here). If wanted to start a Mixed-Martial Arts forum, you can bet 90% of the participants would be men. The topic of a "Fastlane" relating to financial independence will naturally attract YOUNG MEN - generation Y and Z (perhaps a generation that some would argue lack respect for their elders having grown up in the internet age whereas anything you say is shielded in anonymity)

I believe the self-policing that everyone does here has kept this place clean for the most part. If you expect a forum to run with thousands of members and not to have issues (disagreements, bad tact, misinterpretations, comments/jokes of poor taste ) then I don't know what to tell you.

The group does a fine job of putting the offenders in their place. Others who show zero respect for the rules and the members (racial comments,politics) simply are banned.

And I will add: I believe the guy making the comments will see the err of his statement and not defend it and even apologize. Hence he will learn from the mistake. I believe that is why we all are here ... to learn, and sometimes, to learn from our bad mistakes.

MJ, this brings some very interesting thoughts to mind.

As a guy in his 40s, I've seen some pretty radical changes in my life.

When I was born (1961), the American Psychiatric Association classified homosexuality as a disease-- a disorder that required treatment.

While being gay or lesbian in the US still comes with its share of dangers, things have slowly been changing. To the point that it's hard to watch a TV show without seeing an openly gay character, presented in a very positive light.

Our SF mayor, Gavin Newsom, has again started marrying gay couples-- now that the courts have declared gay marriage legal.

That's a pretty substantial change from requiring electro shock therapy for your "disease".

***

Other things:

When I was a kid, there were a *lot* of white folks who, openly, said very negative and disparaging things about folks of color (African Americans, Latinos, Asians, Native Americans, etc).

I've noticed a significant decrease in this over the past 20 years. But in all honesty, it may be due, in part, to my living in a different place (Northern California vs Detroit, Michigan).

In any case, even when I'm on the road at trade shows, it does seem like there is less "color bashing" and bigotry-- at least blatant, open bigotry. I know too well that there is a thriving underground of closet bigots who have learned to hide their true feelings so as not to upset others.

I guess that's a step forward. I'm not really sure.

*********

When I was little, I remember The Playboy Club being a really big deal. This pretty much fell out of favor as the women's movement gained strength.

When I was little, I heard all kinds of jokes about how dumb women were. Many (but not all) of these jokes have dried up (or become blond jokes). Note that I say not all. There still are a bunch-- just not as many.

I also remember *lots* of sexual innuendo jokes. Both women and men laughed, and there were LOTS of women who dealt with being backed up against a wall for a quick feel, or a slap on the butt, or a groped boob, an illicit hug, or some part of their anatomy pinched.

When I asked the older guys (40s, 50s) about this, I was told it was "all in good fun" and there was "nothing wrong with it." Some even went on to suggest that "the girls like it, but they've been taught to act like they don't".

Of course, as the womens' movement gained in strength, we all learned this was not the case for many, many women.

So over the past 20 years or so, we've seen a gradual removing of sexual innuendo and other things from US society (it still exists in many other parts of the world). In fact, this has become a legal issue for many companies and businesses that have been sued for sexual harassment.

****

Other changes in the past 40 years that come to mind:

As a kid, I was beaten. Not spanked. Beaten.

So were some of my friends. If you did something that was wrong, or disrespected your parents, you got cuffed.

These days, the same behavior is considered child abuse in the US. Parents who raise their kids as they were raised can easily be jailed, and have their children taken away from them.

Lots of changes in a relatively short period of time.

*****************

There are lots of other examples, but these are just a few that come to mind.

I am constantly amazed at the power of the internet, and the domino effects it has on society. Social customs now change at a much faster pace, in part because people have the anonymity or power of being behind the keyboard, as has been mentioned.

The internet can bring together very small groups of people and make them feel "normal" (or at least not outcasts). They can form a community.

Just one example: All kinds of sexual practices-- once considered perversities-- have now become accepted, or at least tolerated-- in many parts of society.

We can fear these changes, seeing them as a downfall of modern social structure.

Or we can embrace them, and add to the debate/discussion.

*******

We may be at this point with online tolerance and respect. I don't know.

MJ, surely you've seen great changes in your life. You've spent at least part of your life as a midwestern boy, like me. I'm certain there are things you see today that would NEVER have happened on the streets of Chicago.

I agree that, as a community, we can set examples and make others aware of things that might offend, or be inappropriate.

I'm not for making lots of rules, or creating a police state. We live close to the city of Berkeley, a great example of what can happen when good intentioned, kind-hearted people encourage and protect diversity: Some people abuse this, and become very mean-spirited towards others.

In effect, there are some people in Berkeley (and other places) who speak against intolerance and things they see as wrong, without realizing that they themselves lack the tolerance they so highly prize.

Just one example: Someone who wanted to tear down an old, unsafe military building to build much needed new office and retail space. The existing building had been unsafe, and abandoned, for years.

Berkeley preservationists and no-growth activists were able to successfully protect the building and make it so that NO ONE can do anything with it. This is crazy, as it is dangerous, and, as a military-style structure, is not something any liberal in Berkeley wants to see as representative of their community.

Just one example of tolerance gone amuck.

*******

Sorry for the long post. I'm certain we can make strides on these forums to improve the overall levels of respect and decorum. Speaking only for myself, I'm sure there are areas where I could use some "waking up" to see how things I write can be misconstrued.

I hope to we can continue to build this community, and make it a model for investment communities to come.

-Russ H.

 

[WheelsRCool]

WOW, yikes, I had no idea my joke was going to get taken so seriously or offend so many people. Where to start?

Okay first off, I am truly sorry to anyone that my joke might have offended (Russ, Diane, AroundtheWorld, etc..). I really had no idea it would offend anyone. I just thought people would have a reaction like, "Yeah, yeah, okay Mr. Smarta$$..." type reaction or something like that and all is well.

It is so impersonal that often a statement or conversation is missunderstood. Sometimes it would be easy for one to feel insulted and the other to have no idea what happened. I think it is important to continue the conversation and work through it.... often, it could be nothing!

That seems to be what happened here. Really, I truly was blind-sided about all this. I saw my joke had been removed, and thought, "Hmm...hope I didn't offend anyone" then I saw the title of this thread, and thought, "UH-OH!!"

Secondly, I have a feeling a bunch of people in here now probably assume me as some macho idiot a-hole jerk who really believes that statement inside, but used it as a joke. Well, I don't. I know childbirth can be very painful and risky and is very special. My own mother almost died having me (I was a stubborn baby and wouldn't come out for some reason ). I guess I just wasn't thinking about it then. Again, very sorry.

Regarding childbirth, it just didn't occur to me that such a joke was joking about something that can be a very critical and crucial moment for people (sort of strike the person like a racial joke to a person who lived through extremely racist times and suffered under them).

Perhaps this is just because of how I have been raised. I grew up after the sexual revolution and all that (I am only twenty-four). So things like cracking jokes about women, to a guy like me, seems no big deal (and I do not mind women cracking jokes about men). I do not believe anything of those jokes, to me they're just making fun of certain stereotypes. And I would guess that a young woman who didn't grow up in the times of disrespect of women, likely wouldn't be as offended as one who did.

However, in hindsight now (never really thought about it before) I can see how women who did grow up during those times when a man could say slap a woman on the rearend, how those types of jokes could be highly-offensive.

Women jokes I crack plenty because I love women, so I like to make fun of the stereotypes (like how women can't park correctly, talk too much, blonde jokes, etc...).

I realize now though that a childbirth joke is in a totally different league then say a parking joke. The childbirth one strikes right into some very core emotions.

Basically my joke I just, mentally, had it in the same pile as things like blonde jokes and so forth, which now in hindsight I realize was the wrong place. I meant it to be lighthearted, I didn't know it would offend so many. Very truly sorry.

Please don't think of me as a machoist or anything like that!

 

[AroundTheWorld]

WheelsRCool...

So glad to see the conversation continue. I think it is really important (even in the online world) to push through a misunderstanding or a difficult issue and come to some sort of resolution. Thank you for your comments.

I was also born after the sexual revolution. However, (perhaps because I am female) I still don't see "women jokes" or even "blond jokes" as funny. Why? Because I know from first hand experience that sexism is still alive and well today. In the not so distant past, I've had a banker act amazed because I knew what a CAP rate was, a realtor that refuses to discuss business with me.... will only discuss it with my husband (and even, when he is leaving messages for me will say things like, "When HE makes a decision about xxxx." I'm left thinking, 'we are an equal opportunity household here, buddy.'

I have consciously decided to let it go with him, as it is a religious decision for him, and I'm not interested in having that conversation with him (yet.)

Anyway - - - I can see where jokes would be "harmless" if the sexism or whatever-ism was truely no longer a problem. Unfortunately it still is a problem. Of course, we have come a long, long way . . . but it hasn't gone away completely.

 

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[Rawr]

I'm sorry, but what I see this doing is removing humor for our lives and making everyone walk on eggshells in business and personal life. Surely, we have other topics to discuss than to come up with theories of how to solve an unsolvable problem?

 

[yveskleinsky]

I agree that sexism is alive and well. Lord knows I've had my fair share of it too. I've had an employer corner me and push himself up against me. Back in the day, I had a fellow employee who would ring a bell, (I was a waitress and that was the sign that an order was ready) and make me walk all the way across the restaurant (it was a large place) and then when I'd ask where my order was he's say it wasn't ready- that he just liked to look at me- and he did this like 10 times a shift. I've had male tenants who would leave their rent money on their bed or make me hunt for it. I had a Realtor tell me that head Broker wouldn't consider me for a position as a commercial RE Broker because I was a woman and the field is full of "good ol' boys, and that really by not hiring me he's doing me a favor". I've had male employees call me a bitch under their breath when I corrected them. I've been called a dyke because I wouldn't go out with some guys and because I tend to play more in male arenas (poker, business, etc).

At the end of the day I decided that I could either get angry about it or chalk it up to those guys being douche bags (pardon my French). I don't waste any time being upset by morons. I just smile, think to myself, "Wow, you are a giant douche" and keep walking. However there is a difference between someone being a giant douche and telling a bad joke.

Wheels- your joke wasn't funny because it upset people from a certain era- it just wasnt' funny. It was about as funny as when Kramer told that "joke" about black people during a comedy routine. ...I've also been known to tell a few inappropriate jokes from time-to-time myself- so you're forgiven.

 

[WheelsRCool]

WheelsRCool...

So glad to see the conversation continue. I think it is really important (even in the online world) to push through a misunderstanding or a difficult issue and come to some sort of resolution. Thank you for your comments.

I was also born after the sexual revolution too. However, (perhaps because I am female) I still don't see "women jokes" or even "blond jokes" as funny.

I see; I guess it depends somewhat on the person and how they were raised. For example, I attend a forum where there are some blondes who have absolutely no problem with the blonde jokes said there. But then a person such as yourself is offended by them.

Why? Because I know from first hand experience that sexism is still alive and well today. In the not so distant past, I've had a banker act amazed because I knew what a CAP rate was, a realtor that refuses to discuss business with me.... will only discuss it with my husband (and even, when he is leaving messages for me will say things like, "When HE makes a decision about xxxx." I'm left thinking, 'we are an equal opportunity household here, buddy.'

WOW, I actually didn't know that kind of stuff still occurred, to be honest. I thought much of that was long gone.

Regarding the banker, it could have been sexism, but also understand that we men are naturally fascinated by women who know technical stuff, because there are just so few of them in comparison to men. For example, if you are a woman and know how to repair an engine, if men are shocked by this, it's just because it's so unexpected. They likely don't mean harm by it.

Likewise, women who know things like economics, finance, engineering, etc...in detail, can be a shocker to men, and probably older men especially. It's just a fact that the hard sciences and engineering fields, and the "hard" social sciences, like finance and economics, tend to be mostly male-dominated, so seeing women knowledgeable in these fields can be a shocker to men who are used to only dealing with men in such fields. When shocked though, men should hide it, because women have made so much progress in recent years and it can be offensive.

And sexism like assuming as a realtor that you can only talk to "the man" and not the woman, well, we should be passed that now I'd think.

It reminds me of the one Sex and the City episode (YEAH I admit it, I'm a man who watched the show ), when the character Miranda (the Harvard lawyer), is buying her own apartment, and the man across the desk keeps assuming that her father is paying for it, since she's single.

I have consciously decided to let it go with him, as it is a religious decision for him, and I'm not interested in having that conversation with him (yet.)

I am NO relationships expert, but if it truly bothers you, I would discuss it with him sometime soon; don't want the pot to keep collecting steam, only to boil over later!

Anyway - - - I can see where jokes would be "harmless" if the sexism or whatever-ism was truely no longer a problem. Unfortunately it still is a problem. Of course, we have come a long, long way . . . but it hasn't gone away completely.

I see; I guess it just depends on the people and area and time too. For example, some women can be offended if a man holds a door open for them, others will be flattered, or for example using the term "sweetie" as Presidential candidate Obama discovered recently, I would imagine if say a woman breaks down in the middle of nowhere and Joe Schmoe countryman comes out and says, "Don't worry sweetie, we'll get you back on the road in a bit," that would be okay (I am assuming) whereas if a female corporate executive walks into a business conference room filled with male executives, and they refer to her as sweetie, it would be highly offensive and demeaning.

I guess jokes are the same, depends on the time, place, area, and person.

 

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[WheelsRCool]

I'm sorry, but what I see this doing is removing humor for our lives and making everyone walk on eggshells in business and personal life. Surely, we have other topics to discuss than to come up with theories of how to solve an unsolvable problem?

For most jokes, I can see that, but this was a childbirth joke, which I think really struck a lot of people badly is the thing. Not like I posted a simple blonde joke and people got highly offended or anything.

 

[kidgas]

I don't think it removes humor at all, but illustrates the need to know your audience. There are certain things I might say to family members and close friends that I wouldn't say to business associates or online. Does that mean anything? I don't know.

It's just like the fact that I can call my brother a stupid idiot, but if you try it, watch out.

 

[Banthaman]

As far as the top coment goes I could have swarn I heard my dad say those exact words (jokingly as well) As I know I would never say them (not my taste/style) but verbally you really have to be there to understand much less appreciate the comment. I personally don't know any lady/woman would/could appreciate it but thats just me. Much along the same line as telling a man, " you have a sperm for a brain" in public or an open forum.

My concern is this forum is soon going to be "white males only need apply."

Since we are on the topic of insults, I find this comment and what it insinuates highly insulting.

in response...

I'm white, I'm male, and I'm American so by todays status quo I'm already screwed.

 

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[Merkin Man]

......

 

[Banthaman]

Dang girl! I just looked you up Diane, I Agree with Merk

 

[kurtyordy]

First off, Wheels, I am sorry for you that your joke blew up on you like that. I think you hit the nail on the head below.

Perhaps this is just because of how I have been raised. I grew up after the sexual revolution and all that (I am only twenty-four). So things like cracking jokes about women, to a guy like me, seems no big deal (and I do not mind women cracking jokes about men). I do not believe anything of those jokes, to me they're just making fun of certain stereotypes. And I would guess that a young woman who didn't grow up in the times of disrespect of women, likely wouldn't be as offended as one who did.

My best friend and business partner is an African American. He and I both at different times will crack jokes to each other about our own or the other persons race. This is not to insult the other, but to make fun of the people who hold those positions for real. To quote Rush Limbaugh, we illustrate absurdity by being absurd.

So with that background and mindset, I looked at your joke as making fun of the men who would actually say such a thing and not actually aimed at the woman. Maybe I am wacked out, or very limited in my worldview, but that is how I read it.

What makes things difficult in the online forum setting is you become friends with and feel familiar with these folks you interact with on a daily basis. Therefore, you apply the same grid of rules to these friends as you do to your offline friends which is where the problem starts.

Obviously, many here lived through an era when lines like your could very well have been spoken with seriousness. So when you joke, they hear those voices from the past, and they project that onto you which is understandable. Like someone previous stated, the key is to know your audiance.

All that being said, I do not think policing of this would help the forum. I have not seen it rampant, but maybe I am missing it. I do believe that if you are offended by something, call them out as Russ did. You then get to know what the person's heart actually was, and have a chance to restore the relationship. Sitting and stewing about it and removing yourself from the group only helps to foster more seperation in the world.

Honest dialouge conveyed in a non abbrasive way can bring restoration and unity.

Hope I did not get to sappy for everyone.

 

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[Yankees338]

First off, Wheels, I am sorry for you that your joke blew up on you like that. I think you hit the nail on the head below.



My best friend and business partner is an African American. He and I both at different times will crack jokes to each other about our own or the other persons race. This is not to insult the other, but to make fun of the people who hold those positions for real. To quote Rush Limbaugh, we illustrate absurdity by being absurd.

So with that background and mindset, I looked at your joke as making fun of the men who would actually say such a thing and not actually aimed at the woman. Maybe I am wacked out, or very limited in my worldview, but that is how I read it.

What makes things difficult in the online forum setting is you become friends with and feel familiar with these folks you interact with on a daily basis. Therefore, you apply the same grid of rules to these friends as you do to your offline friends which is where the problem starts.

Obviously, many here lived through an era when lines like your could very well have been spoken with seriousness. So when you joke, they hear those voices from the past, and they project that onto you which is understandable. Like someone previous stated, the key is to know your audiance.

All that being said, I do not think policing of this would help the forum. I have not seen it rampant, but maybe I am missing it. I do believe that if you are offended by something, call them out as Russ did. You then get to know what the person's heart actually was, and have a chance to restore the relationship. Sitting and stewing about it and removing yourself from the group only helps to foster more seperation in the world.

Honest dialouge conveyed in a non abbrasive way can bring restoration and unity.

Hope I did not get to sappy for everyone.

I agree with ya.

I make stereotypical jokes every once in a while (or a little more than that), but I make them mainly to poke fun at people's ignorance.

A lot of times, I laugh at these kinds of jokes, too. But, it's more like I'm laughing at how ignorant and ridiculous people can be than supporting the stereotypes.

People definitely cross the line sometimes, though. The other day, two of my friends and I went to my friends house. We were all chillin' on his deck and just talking. My friend said something sarcastically about how his haircut made it look like he had cancer. He found it funny, but I don't think any of the other six or so kids there found it funny. One of my friends that I came with especially was probably pretty pissed because one of her good friends passed away of cancer just a few months ago. Luckily, we all kinda scolded him, and he realized it wasn't a good "joke".

 

[AroundTheWorld]

Working through stuff like this can be tough. It can be tempting to draw a line in the sand. But, when we do that, we also often read too much into a comment or joke.

Is this person or this place really sexist?
Or maybe just showing bad judgment for a moment...
Or maybe is just being insensitive....
Or maybe speaking a different language (literally or figuratively).
Or maybe reacting and speaking before thinking
Or maybe feeling hurt or insulted and speaking with emotion.

Drawing a line in the sand leads to focusing on the differences and fighting about that.... (and maybe saying things we don't really mean or interpreting things with a negative lens).
Rather than focusing on the common ground and building on that.

I think we lost a member of this forum (just a hunch)
Due to this thread.
It makes me sad.
Because I think that it was a misunderstanding viewed through lines in the sand.
And... I think most people here actually feel the same way about this issue.

 

[Allthingznew]

I was thinking the same exact thing, and yes, it's very sad...

Ditto

 

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[kimberland]

My easy test is...
if you need to mention gender or race or religion
to make the joke funny,
it isn't funny,
it is insulting.

 

[andviv]

I hope you are wrong and that this member is just too busy working on her/his deals and opportunities and that's why s/he hasn't contributed in the past few weeks.

 

[AroundTheWorld]

My easy test is...
if you need to mention gender or race or religion
to make the joke funny,
it isn't funny,
it is insulting.

Very nice Kimber.
Succinct and to the point.

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

This is the internet and an internet forum, not a country club. Holding an entire group of people (or me) accountable to the words of another person is asinine and frankly naive - and this is directed not at one person, but everyone. We all are adults using a medium that easily is misconstrued and misinterpreted - we shouldn't need to have our ego's babysat when we immerse ourselves in a medium that is likely to attract dozens of other people with other backgrounds, experiences, and relationships.

Does it justify jokes done in bad taste? No. However, if you expect to run a business (or a forum) with 1000s of customers and expect NOT ONE of them to disappoint you with a complaint, comment or grievance, you're living in a dreamworld. Banning people for a joke that runs flat is not the answer. Banning people for repeated and outright insults, sexism and/or racism is.

Frankly, I'm shocked Fanocks2003 is still here as Jason disagrees with him on virtually everything -- and calls him on it -- yet, he is still here giving his opinion and maintaining his composure. I respect and admire him on that.

 

[Russ H]

MJ-

Very well said.

We have a tendency on these forums to be brutally honest with fellow posters-- what some call "tough love". I really like this-- it's done bluntly, but with compassion for the other person's feelings.

Under "tough love", many things are said here that would *never* be mentioned in polite company.

But that's the magic of it:
Many of us have learned from these posts
Not just about "don't mention" issues
But about the person giving tough love-
The things they consider important.

Off color jokes are a great example of this.
Some folks go through their entire lives,
and never hear that their jokes are considered
rude, or offensive by some.

What you choose to do with this information
is the measure of who you are.

You can go away, and feel ostracized.
Or you can hang in there,
and learn from the interchange.

I've often done the former
(run away and lick my wounds)
But the older, and more confident I become
the more I'm likely to stick around
and take the advice as it was intended:
With love, and as constructive criticism.

-Russ H.