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HOT TOPIC Is Elon Musk a fraud?

Is Elon Musk a fraud?

  • Yes

    Votes: 9 9.8%
  • No

    Votes: 83 90.2%

  • Total voters
    92
  • Poll closed .

chuckypita

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Jul 16, 2017
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I'm torn.

I've read that Elon Musk is the greatest inventor since sliced bread and that he's the entrepreneur of all entrepreneurs... however, I'm more inclined to believe that he's a wolf in sheeps clothing.

Does he provide a valuable service to others through voluntary transactions or coerce and manipulative selling strategies?

Is he really "free markets" or does he simply use tax subsidies and government freebies to grow his business?

The Crony Capitalist King - EPautos - Libertarian Car Talk

After I read that article, I figured that there's always 2 sides to every coin.

I will say this.... I WILL NEVER EVER BUY A TESLA.
 

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Ninjakid

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A fraud in what way? Who did he scam? Who did he defraud?

I'm torn.

I've read that Elon Musk is the greatest inventor since sliced bread and that he's the entrepreneur of all entrepreneurs...
Where did you actually read that?

I've never heard him say that about himself. If someone calls him that, it's on THEM, and has nothing to do with him.

others through voluntary transactions or coerce and manipulative selling strategies?
What does this even mean????

Marketing is manipulative by nature. Companies know how you think and feel, yet you "voluntarily" give them your money. That's not the same thing as fraud.

Is he really "free markets" or does he simply use tax subsidies and government freebies to grow his business?
Are you or anyone else you know rich enough to buy a rocket and go to Mars? Is it beneficial for any private citizen you know to be the first to get to Mars?

Well guess what? The US government would benefit TREMENDOUSLY from being the first country to get to Mars before the Russians, Chinese, or anyone else does. So that's who his customer is. Just like how Lockheed's biggest customer is the US government because who else could use bombs that much?

Free market of private space exploration? That wasn't even a thing before Elon!

Oh it makes sense. Your reference is some obscure blog which about 5 people read on a 2005 era website. I'm sure the article is a worthy read.

Nice clickbait title by the way.
 

biophase

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I'm torn.

I've read that Elon Musk is the greatest inventor since sliced bread and that he's the entrepreneur of all entrepreneurs... however, I'm more inclined to believe that he's a wolf in sheeps clothing.

Does he provide a valuable service to others through voluntary transactions or coerce and manipulative selling strategies?

Is he really "free markets" or does he simply use tax subsidies and government freebies to grow his business?

The Crony Capitalist King - EPautos - Libertarian Car Talk

After I read that article, I figured that there's always 2 sides to every coin.

I will say this.... I WILL NEVER EVER BUY A TESLA.
I don't see how you get that from reading that article. First it's 2 years old and we can already see how wrong the writer is. But those reasons cited in the article are just ridiculous.

It's not his fault the other car companies can't build zero emissions cars so they have to buy credits. They have the same thing going on with factory emissions. This is how the EPA forces change, by charging polluting companies and incentivizing non polluting ones.

And it doesn't sound like you are torn based on your last sentence.
 

SquatchMan

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He “succeeds” only because of his ability to game the system, not by offering products that people are willing to pay for (using their own money, that is.)

The heroic real-life Tony Stark image notwithstanding, Musk is an operator – not a creator of value.
I think there's a little more to his success than gaming the system.

Also legitimately hilarious that the no-name blogger that literally e-begs for a $5/month donation is calling a multi-billionaire entrepreneur that will likely colonize Mars and be remembered for millennia a failure.

Not really a good look, but that's just me.
 
Last edited:

GPM

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Yes he is a fraud. Absolutely hit the nail on the head. TESLA does not make real cars, you are witnessing the greatest pulling of wool over peoples eyes the world has ever witnessed.

Paypal also does not exist. Anyone who uses it has been scammed and had their bank accounts drained and received no benefit.

All those videos you see of Space X rockets landing by themselves - those are all fake too. Amazing what slaves in a basement on a computer can generate these days.

I understand that it took teams of engineers and workers to do all of these amazing things, but someone had to organize it all into a coherent thought and drive the tech. The world does not evolve on its own. It requires the will of great men and women to make it happen.
 

PersianCub

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Did you actually study what he's done?
 

Kak

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I understand that it took teams of engineers and workers to do all of these amazing things, but someone had to organize it all into a coherent thought and drive the tech. The world does not evolve on its own. It requires the will of great men and women to make it happen.
Damn straight. Rep++++
 

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OP
chuckypita

chuckypita

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Wow. I guess I struck a nerve. LOL

Tesla could not be in business without government subsidies and does not produce a profit.

The only way Elon Musk stays in business is by INVOLUNTARY transactions that force others to pay. Is that really being an entrepreneur?
 

Kak

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Suit yourself. I own a Tesla and it's by far the best car I've ever had. I'll never go back to ICE unless forced.
I have a lobbyist with one... He is really proud of it. He wanted to meet at a very specific restaraunt the other day... Wouldn't have it any other way... Then I realized why when I showed up there and his car was plugged in. Made me laugh. There are still pitfalls.

Around town they're close to perfect.

Doing what I do to a vehicle? No way in HELL would it work for me. I use my Suburban like a private jet. I'll routinely do 1000 mile days for various reasons. Most recently to Tulsa and back in a day.
 

Roz

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Think about the following questions.

1. How did Musk get so rich?

2. What is he currently doing with all that money?

3. Why did he say,

If something is important enough, you do it even if the odds are not in your favor?


4. Why the heck is he following what he said?


Damn straight. Rep+++
Leadership.



*Yes, I am a Musk fanboy.
 

NuclearPuma

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Yes and no.
I have done lots of research on his companies and him.

First the negatives:

My conclusion is he is a sociopath with zero empathy. See reports how he treats employees, even very long time ones. Drives people hard.

He has a cult personality where he can get lots of followers like Tony Robbins, or Ron L Hubbard. He embellishes his accomplishments and refuses to give any credit to anyone but himself.

Research who really developed the first SpaceX rocket and find other quotes about how he operates. Same thing with Tesla. His spot light stealing is a common theme from those who describe him. He is the only person he allows to speak to media.

Also, His businesses are not profitable. They exist only because he is a good salesman and can keep finding more and more investment capital. Do some digging, SpaceX likely operates at a loss.

Both Tesla and SpaceX exist only because of deep venture pockets and hundreds of millions in government investments, contracts and subsidies.

Tesla is a pure government fleece, basically taking the Tim Ferris approach, outside of the box but within the rules. Musk is quoted as saying Tesla was weeks away from total bankruptcy before.

I think he is somewhat pathological in his embellished reality. He distracts audiences like a magician, Tesla has bad news he unveils electric Trucks as a distraction (which he is sued for stealing another electric truck design).

He treats his employees, wives, children and investors, and well everyone like shit. I don't think he has any real friends that aren't for business or for ego, no time and a sociopath. He was hated at PayPal as well.


Now the positives:

He is clearly a visionary. He drives teams below him to accomplish things no one thought possible only he could see (but also a lot of engineers or execs quit or got fired because they thought he was a dumbass or he thought they were).

His biggest contribution to aerospace is making the other big government suppliers get off their a$$ and add more value to compete. He did this however by working everyone at SpaceX 50% more, 60+ hours per week (even interns) year around, and simultaneously paying them lower salaries (Let's just say working for Elon lowers your hourly wage).

Teslas luxury cars are really nice (wish they didn't get $7,000 from tax payers though). Model 3 is not.

Tesla could be profitable if he focused on luxury market.

Musk doesn't give a shit about profits or customer value imo. I think he just wants to find a way to fund his visions and ego, going to Mars and making electric cars.

He multiplied a few grand into a few hundred million, and then into companies valued in the billions.

I think a lot of his wealth is just paper wealth. He is the major share holder in companies that don't make a profit. Tesla's valuation lacks any logic. So, in my opinion, his wealth isn't based on any logic, just irrational market.

His wealth comes from him selling people visions and having a cult personality and being a sociopath that knows how to take all of the credit and indoctrinate followers. He doesn't have a "productocracy" just better marketing and messaging.

So, Musk in a way defines fastlane. He is sales. He has made a lot of real products, but it's all built on debt and venture capital, no profits.

There is still a very real chance Tesla, and/or SpaceX goes bankrupt, but even if both did, he is definitely a visionary entrepreneur.

He just doesn't care about profits, his businesses are just a tool to finance his toys and dream of reaching mars. Profit isn't required.
 
Last edited:

NuclearPuma

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Free market of private space exploration? That wasn't even a thing before Elon!
Perfect example right here of how skilled Musk is at marketing and embellishment and setting narratives. Private Space market was beginning before Elon. He gave it a steroid shot by competing with government suppliers.
 

NuclearPuma

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He does things most people can't because he is an obvious sociopath.

Doesn't mean he isn't fastlane.

Funny thing, why can't fraud be fastlane?

Can one be a fraud and a fastlane entrepreneur. Maybe Fraud is a fastlane?

I get this as one of the definitions for Fraud when I search google, and Musk without a doubt fits the bill. He says stuff that just isn't justifiable all the time! Do your research guys, doesn't mean he isn't a visionary and isn't an entrepreneur, but he has sold investors visions and technology and timelines that never materialize many times.

Fraud: "a person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities."
 

csalvato

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I have a lobbyist with one... He is really proud of it. He wanted to meet at a very specific restaraunt the other day... Wouldn't have it any other way... Then I realized why when I showed up there and his car was plugged in. Made me laugh. There are still pitfalls.

Around town they're close to perfect.

Doing what I do to a vehicle? No way in HELL would it work for me. I use my Suburban like a private jet. I'll routinely do 1000 mile days for various reasons. Most recently to Tulsa and back in a day.
300-700 mile days are not uncommon for us. We use ours as a commercial vehicle for private executive transportation services. That's our primary business at the moment.

On those big days, we're looking at 30-45 minutes charging at a Supercharger. Luckily, we have a good amount of Superchargers in CO.

The cars are remarkably versatile and charging is very rarely an issue. On most days we wake up every day with a full tank. Every month, even as a commercial vehicle, we probably spend less time at an intra-trip charger than most people spend at gas pumps because most charging (90%+) is done in the garage.
 

Sanj Modha

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I like Elon Musk. I like what he's doing and I've read his bio too.

But, do I want to be Elon Musk? Nope.

Do I think he's a healthy role model for the next generation? Nope.

Is he a fraud? Nope, there's nothing I've seen or read to suggest he is.
 

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OP
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chuckypita

chuckypita

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Jul 16, 2017
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This thread is attracting the flies that feed on sh*t which is the media.

Facts go in one ear, conspiracy theories come out the other.

Must be a great way to live.
It's like reading the "National Enquirer" in real time. LOL

My post wasn't designed to be "clickbait" or anything along those lines. It was designed to get people to think - "What is a real entrepreneur?"

Ad hominem attacks are pointless - so anything that detracts from the original question - "Is Elon Musk a fraud?" - is a waste of time.

You can vote - that speaks volumes. Right now there are an awful lot of people who believe that Elon Musk does a great job and he's the real deal. More power to 'em....
 

TonyStark

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It's like reading the "National Enquirer" in real time. LOL

My post wasn't designed to be "clickbait" or anything along those lines. It was designed to get people to think - "What is a real entrepreneur?"

Ad hominem attacks are pointless - so anything that detracts from the original question - "Is Elon Musk a fraud?" - is a waste of time.

You can vote - that speaks volumes. Right now there are an awful lot of people who believe that Elon Musk does a great job and he's the real deal. More power to 'em....
It doesn’t take a genius to figure out he’s not defrauding people, at least not on the scale or Bernie Madoff or some politicians, but if you’re too dull to see that then your problems are bigger than my expertise to solve them.

You probably need a shrink.

I think Fastlaners have provided enough evidence to refute your claims.

It seems like you’re just trolling at this point.
 
OP
OP
chuckypita

chuckypita

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It doesn’t take a genius to figure out he’s not defrauding people, at least not on the scale or Bernie Madoff or some politicians, but if you’re too dull to see that then your problems are bigger than my expertise to solve them.

You probably need a shrink.
That you know of.

Yet.

Would you say the same if Tesla went bankrupt?

Did anyone know Bernie Madoff was scamming people before the news struck?

You've made ad hominem attacks twice now.... "if you're too dull...." - blah blah blah.....

The question is simple. Is Elon Musk a fraud? Your vote was "no" - good for you. Move on dude.
 

TonyStark

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That you know of.

Yet.

Would you say the same if Tesla went bankrupt?

Did anyone know Bernie Madoff was scamming people before the news struck?

You've made ad hominem attacks twice now.... "if you're too dull...." - blah blah blah.....

The question is simple. Is Elon Musk a fraud? Your vote was "no" - good for you. Move on dude.
Plenty of people knew Bernie madoff was scamming people that’s why they invested with him lol.

Calling Elon Musk a fraud with such a proven track record is a bit of a stretch.

Calling you a fraud is a bit more believable.
 

csalvato

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I'm torn.

I've read that Elon Musk is the greatest inventor since sliced bread and that he's the entrepreneur of all entrepreneurs... however, I'm more inclined to believe that he's a wolf in sheeps clothing.

Does he provide a valuable service to others through voluntary transactions or coerce and manipulative selling strategies?

Is he really "free markets" or does he simply use tax subsidies and government freebies to grow his business?

The Crony Capitalist King - EPautos - Libertarian Car Talk

After I read that article, I figured that there's always 2 sides to every coin.

I will say this.... I WILL NEVER EVER BUY A TESLA.
What is your affiliation with this blog? Seems random af.
 

SquatchMan

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That you know of.

Yet.

Would you say the same if Tesla went bankrupt?

Did anyone know Bernie Madoff was scamming people before the news struck?

You've made ad hominem attacks twice now.... "if you're too dull...." - blah blah blah.....

The question is simple. Is Elon Musk a fraud? Your vote was "no" - good for you. Move on dude.
Considering the fact that he actually produces physical goods I wouldn't say he's defrauding people. Saying that he has created no value, like the author did, is really stupid.

His cars, rocketships, tunnels, flameworthers, etc. are physical products. Even if the company goes belly up the technology and contribution to the human race will stay forever. Value is not necessarily money.

Would you say the team that sent a man to the moon created no value because no one paid for the product?

Of course you wouldn't.

You're treating this whole free market thing like it is a religion. It's not.

Sometimes the government will fund things they need because no private demand exists for it. Stuff like tanks, RPGs, automatic weapons, steath bombers, rocketships, etc. I don't really see a problem with funding things that will better humanity.

Comparing it to welfare is also not really a fair comparison. People on welfare don't create value. It's mostly used to prevent a peasant revolt (French Revolution).
 

The Abundant Man

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Stop reading his ex-wife's blog. Just because she posts stuff all the time doesn't mean they're true.

No wonder he married that (at the time...) 19 year old girl.
 

Dom117

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Musk = Hero.
How many electric cars would we have on the road by now without him?
His goal has never to been to make many money by selling cars, he just disrupted the market and thanks to him other manufacturers are forced to invest more in this technology to compete.

He completes missions for NASA better than NASA ever could.

He tries to solve traffic congestion and might even succeed at it by digging tunnels.

He's not trying to fraud anyone 'maybe a corrupt government) or make many money in any way, he is way beyond that entrepreneurial step.
He puts systems in place that influence the world in the way that he sees is best for the future, with a sustainable energy source and multi-planetary.
We should take his warning concerning the rapid pace of AI development very seriously too.
 

jon.M

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Sliced bread... one of my favorite inventors in history.

Elon Musk has become the entrepeneurial world's version of the Kardashians.
 

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