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Is Elon Musk a fraud?

Discussion in 'People & Relationships' started by chuckypita, Dec 17, 2018.

Is Elon Musk a fraud?

Poll closed Jan 16, 2019.
  1. Yes

    9 vote(s)
    9.8%
  2. No

    83 vote(s)
    90.2%
  1. chuckypita
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    chuckypita Contributor

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    I'm torn.

    I've read that Elon Musk is the greatest inventor since sliced bread and that he's the entrepreneur of all entrepreneurs... however, I'm more inclined to believe that he's a wolf in sheeps clothing.

    Does he provide a valuable service to others through voluntary transactions or coerce and manipulative selling strategies?

    Is he really "free markets" or does he simply use tax subsidies and government freebies to grow his business?

    The Crony Capitalist King - EPautos - Libertarian Car Talk

    After I read that article, I figured that there's always 2 sides to every coin.

    I will say this.... I WILL NEVER EVER BUY A TESLA.
     
    Xeon likes this.
  2. Ninjakid
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    Ninjakid Platinum Contributor Speedway Pass

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    A fraud in what way? Who did he scam? Who did he defraud?

    Where did you actually read that?

    I've never heard him say that about himself. If someone calls him that, it's on THEM, and has nothing to do with him.

    What does this even mean????

    Marketing is manipulative by nature. Companies know how you think and feel, yet you "voluntarily" give them your money. That's not the same thing as fraud.

    Are you or anyone else you know rich enough to buy a rocket and go to Mars? Is it beneficial for any private citizen you know to be the first to get to Mars?

    Well guess what? The US government would benefit TREMENDOUSLY from being the first country to get to Mars before the Russians, Chinese, or anyone else does. So that's who his customer is. Just like how Lockheed's biggest customer is the US government because who else could use bombs that much?

    Free market of private space exploration? That wasn't even a thing before Elon!

    Oh it makes sense. Your reference is some obscure blog which about 5 people read on a 2005 era website. I'm sure the article is a worthy read.

    Nice clickbait title by the way.
     
  3. biophase
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    biophase Legendary Contributor I've Read UNSCRIPTED FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass LEGENDARY CONTRIBUTOR Summit Attendee

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    I don't see how you get that from reading that article. First it's 2 years old and we can already see how wrong the writer is. But those reasons cited in the article are just ridiculous.

    It's not his fault the other car companies can't build zero emissions cars so they have to buy credits. They have the same thing going on with factory emissions. This is how the EPA forces change, by charging polluting companies and incentivizing non polluting ones.

    And it doesn't sound like you are torn based on your last sentence.
     
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  4. Primeperiwinkle
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    Primeperiwinkle Bronze Contributor Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass

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    I totes thought we were supposed to just use #landfill for this type of post.. or is it Landfill. Land full?
     
  5. csalvato
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    csalvato Platinum Contributor Read Millionaire Fastlane Speedway Pass Summit Attendee

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    Suit yourself. I own a Tesla and it's by far the best car I've ever had. I'll never go back to ICE unless forced.
     
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  6. Sebastya
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    Sebastya Bronze Contributor

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    Anyone who can create multiple billion-dollar companies while trying to solve real world problems is arguably the greatest entrepreneur of our time.
     
  7. SquatchMan
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    SquatchMan Gold Contributor Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass

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    I think there's a little more to his success than gaming the system.

    Also legitimately hilarious that the no-name blogger that literally e-begs for a $5/month donation is calling a multi-billionaire entrepreneur that will likely colonize Mars and be remembered for millennia a failure.

    Not really a good look, but that's just me.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2018
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  8. GPM
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    GPM Gold Contributor Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass Summit Attendee

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    Yes he is a fraud. Absolutely hit the nail on the head. TESLA does not make real cars, you are witnessing the greatest pulling of wool over peoples eyes the world has ever witnessed.

    Paypal also does not exist. Anyone who uses it has been scammed and had their bank accounts drained and received no benefit.

    All those videos you see of Space X rockets landing by themselves - those are all fake too. Amazing what slaves in a basement on a computer can generate these days.

    I understand that it took teams of engineers and workers to do all of these amazing things, but someone had to organize it all into a coherent thought and drive the tech. The world does not evolve on its own. It requires the will of great men and women to make it happen.
     
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  9. PersianCub
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    PersianCub Contributor FASTLANE INSIDER

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    Did you actually study what he's done?
     
  10. Ninjakid
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    Ninjakid Platinum Contributor Speedway Pass

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    I bet OP is trying to promote this blog
     
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  11. Kak
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    Kak Capitalist Swine Read Millionaire Fastlane FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass LEGENDARY CONTRIBUTOR Summit Attendee

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    Damn straight. Rep++++
     
  12. chuckypita
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    Wow. I guess I struck a nerve. LOL

    Tesla could not be in business without government subsidies and does not produce a profit.

    The only way Elon Musk stays in business is by INVOLUNTARY transactions that force others to pay. Is that really being an entrepreneur?
     
  13. Kak
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    Kak Capitalist Swine Read Millionaire Fastlane FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass LEGENDARY CONTRIBUTOR Summit Attendee

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    I have a lobbyist with one... He is really proud of it. He wanted to meet at a very specific restaraunt the other day... Wouldn't have it any other way... Then I realized why when I showed up there and his car was plugged in. Made me laugh. There are still pitfalls.

    Around town they're close to perfect.

    Doing what I do to a vehicle? No way in HELL would it work for me. I use my Suburban like a private jet. I'll routinely do 1000 mile days for various reasons. Most recently to Tulsa and back in a day.
     
  14. Roz
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    Roz Bronze Contributor Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED Speedway Pass

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    Think about the following questions.

    1. How did Musk get so rich?

    2. What is he currently doing with all that money?

    3. Why did he say,

    If something is important enough, you do it even if the odds are not in your favor?


    4. Why the heck is he following what he said?


    Leadership.



    *Yes, I am a Musk fanboy.
     
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  15. NuclearPuma
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    Yes and no.
    I have done lots of research on his companies and him.

    First the negatives:

    My conclusion is he is a sociopath with zero empathy. See reports how he treats employees, even very long time ones. Drives people hard.

    He has a cult personality where he can get lots of followers like Tony Robbins, or Ron L Hubbard. He embellishes his accomplishments and refuses to give any credit to anyone but himself.

    Research who really developed the first SpaceX rocket and find other quotes about how he operates. Same thing with Tesla. His spot light stealing is a common theme from those who describe him. He is the only person he allows to speak to media.

    Also, His businesses are not profitable. They exist only because he is a good salesman and can keep finding more and more investment capital. Do some digging, SpaceX likely operates at a loss.

    Both Tesla and SpaceX exist only because of deep venture pockets and hundreds of millions in government investments, contracts and subsidies.

    Tesla is a pure government fleece, basically taking the Tim Ferris approach, outside of the box but within the rules. Musk is quoted as saying Tesla was weeks away from total bankruptcy before.

    I think he is somewhat pathological in his embellished reality. He distracts audiences like a magician, Tesla has bad news he unveils electric Trucks as a distraction (which he is sued for stealing another electric truck design).

    He treats his employees, wives, children and investors, and well everyone like shit. I don't think he has any real friends that aren't for business or for ego, no time and a sociopath. He was hated at PayPal as well.


    Now the positives:

    He is clearly a visionary. He drives teams below him to accomplish things no one thought possible only he could see (but also a lot of engineers or execs quit or got fired because they thought he was a dumbass or he thought they were).

    His biggest contribution to aerospace is making the other big government suppliers get off their a$$ and add more value to compete. He did this however by working everyone at SpaceX 50% more, 60+ hours per week (even interns) year around, and simultaneously paying them lower salaries (Let's just say working for Elon lowers your hourly wage).

    Teslas luxury cars are really nice (wish they didn't get $7,000 from tax payers though). Model 3 is not.

    Tesla could be profitable if he focused on luxury market.

    Musk doesn't give a shit about profits or customer value imo. I think he just wants to find a way to fund his visions and ego, going to Mars and making electric cars.

    He multiplied a few grand into a few hundred million, and then into companies valued in the billions.

    I think a lot of his wealth is just paper wealth. He is the major share holder in companies that don't make a profit. Tesla's valuation lacks any logic. So, in my opinion, his wealth isn't based on any logic, just irrational market.

    His wealth comes from him selling people visions and having a cult personality and being a sociopath that knows how to take all of the credit and indoctrinate followers. He doesn't have a "productocracy" just better marketing and messaging.

    So, Musk in a way defines fastlane. He is sales. He has made a lot of real products, but it's all built on debt and venture capital, no profits.

    There is still a very real chance Tesla, and/or SpaceX goes bankrupt, but even if both did, he is definitely a visionary entrepreneur.

    He just doesn't care about profits, his businesses are just a tool to finance his toys and dream of reaching mars. Profit isn't required.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2018
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  16. NuclearPuma
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    NuclearPuma Bronze Contributor FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass

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    Perfect example right here of how skilled Musk is at marketing and embellishment and setting narratives. Private Space market was beginning before Elon. He gave it a steroid shot by competing with government suppliers.
     
  17. jasoncuellar123
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    jasoncuellar123 I’m probably awake. Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass

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    Send this to the #landfill.

    Why should Fastlaner’s have to dedicate their precious time to educating a guy that doesn’t want to be educated?
     
  18. NuclearPuma
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    He does things most people can't because he is an obvious sociopath.

    Doesn't mean he isn't fastlane.

    Funny thing, why can't fraud be fastlane?

    Can one be a fraud and a fastlane entrepreneur. Maybe Fraud is a fastlane?

    I get this as one of the definitions for Fraud when I search google, and Musk without a doubt fits the bill. He says stuff that just isn't justifiable all the time! Do your research guys, doesn't mean he isn't a visionary and isn't an entrepreneur, but he has sold investors visions and technology and timelines that never materialize many times.

    Fraud: "a person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities."
     
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  19. jasoncuellar123
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    jasoncuellar123 I’m probably awake. Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass

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    This thread is attracting the flies that feed on shit which is the media.

    Facts go in one ear, conspiracy theories come out the other.

    Must be a great way to live.
     
  20. csalvato
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    csalvato Platinum Contributor Read Millionaire Fastlane Speedway Pass Summit Attendee

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    300-700 mile days are not uncommon for us. We use ours as a commercial vehicle for private executive transportation services. That's our primary business at the moment.

    On those big days, we're looking at 30-45 minutes charging at a Supercharger. Luckily, we have a good amount of Superchargers in CO.

    The cars are remarkably versatile and charging is very rarely an issue. On most days we wake up every day with a full tank. Every month, even as a commercial vehicle, we probably spend less time at an intra-trip charger than most people spend at gas pumps because most charging (90%+) is done in the garage.
     
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  21. Sanj Modha
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    Sanj Modha Gold Contributor Speedway Pass

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    I like Elon Musk. I like what he's doing and I've read his bio too.

    But, do I want to be Elon Musk? Nope.

    Do I think he's a healthy role model for the next generation? Nope.

    Is he a fraud? Nope, there's nothing I've seen or read to suggest he is.
     
    Roli likes this.
  22. chuckypita
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    It's like reading the "National Enquirer" in real time. LOL

    My post wasn't designed to be "clickbait" or anything along those lines. It was designed to get people to think - "What is a real entrepreneur?"

    Ad hominem attacks are pointless - so anything that detracts from the original question - "Is Elon Musk a fraud?" - is a waste of time.

    You can vote - that speaks volumes. Right now there are an awful lot of people who believe that Elon Musk does a great job and he's the real deal. More power to 'em....
     
  23. jasoncuellar123
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    jasoncuellar123 I’m probably awake. Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass

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    It doesn’t take a genius to figure out he’s not defrauding people, at least not on the scale or Bernie Madoff or some politicians, but if you’re too dull to see that then your problems are bigger than my expertise to solve them.

    You probably need a shrink.

    I think Fastlaners have provided enough evidence to refute your claims.

    It seems like you’re just trolling at this point.
     
  24. chuckypita
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    That you know of.

    Yet.

    Would you say the same if Tesla went bankrupt?

    Did anyone know Bernie Madoff was scamming people before the news struck?

    You've made ad hominem attacks twice now.... "if you're too dull...." - blah blah blah.....

    The question is simple. Is Elon Musk a fraud? Your vote was "no" - good for you. Move on dude.
     
  25. jasoncuellar123
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    jasoncuellar123 I’m probably awake. Read Millionaire Fastlane I've Read UNSCRIPTED FASTLANE INSIDER Speedway Pass

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    Plenty of people knew Bernie madoff was scamming people that’s why they invested with him lol.

    Calling Elon Musk a fraud with such a proven track record is a bit of a stretch.

    Calling you a fraud is a bit more believable.
     
    LeoistheSun and Ninjakid like this.

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