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HOT TOPIC Is Elon Musk a fraud?

Is Elon Musk a fraud?

  • Yes

    Votes: 9 9.8%
  • No

    Votes: 83 90.2%

  • Total voters
    92
  • Poll closed .

MJ DeMarco

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Musk might be the greatest marketer of all time.
Not a Musk fanboy but I do respect what he's accomplished.

Curious though, how did he "market" his way to an X, Zip, and PayPal fortune?
 

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GoGetter24

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The only way Elon Musk stays in business is by INVOLUNTARY transactions that force others to pay. Is that really being an entrepreneur?
Yes it is, unless he's the one forcing the transactions.

You do business in the country you have, under the government you have, not in some libertarian utopia that doesn't exist.

There is nothing morally inconsistent with using the power of the state while concurrently saying it shouldn't have that power. A simple example of this is Nigel Farage: who uses the privileges granted to him by the EU regime to try and bring down that regime.

Otherwise you'll just be hobbling yourself, and you'll do no good.

People like you are just one more crabs-in-bucket loser trying to pull down one of the few men in the world who're actually moving us all forward. You're just an internet edgelord douchebag, and a libertarian society would blacklist you so hard you'd only be allowed tenancy in the desert.
 

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Drive2Riches

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Good clickbait title. But...

I didn't see anywhere in this thread any discussion about Musk in September proclaiming that he's taking TSLA stock private when it hits $420, and publicly smoking a joint on YouTube for the (premature) occasion, which was immediately followed by drop in stock price and an SEC investigation resulting in being forced to step down as Chairman, and reserve $40M for harmed investors.

This week (December) I read a headline about donating $400k in computers to middle schoolers in Flint Michigan, which famously doesn't have any drinking water. Might have been nice to work that issue instead, but that's just my personal view.

And finally, the boys in flooded caves in Thailand needed saving but I'm not sure that his mini-sub invention was much more than self-serving publicity. I think he was also loose-lipped about actual rescuers in a disparaging way as well.

(disclosure: I skimmed these stories out of curiosity at the time, but I didn't care enough about Musk to follow more closely)

I think these stories show that he's a flawed human like the rest of us and not an actual fraud. But probably more boneheaded and disconnected, though, than ordinary non-wealthy humans like me.
 

Sanj Modha

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I hope Musk proves me wrong but I don't think Tesla will ever overtake China with EVs.

There are multiple reasons for this:

1 - The Chinese govt started their EV revolution 20 years ago.
2 - China is the biggest EV market in the world. 500K cars were sold in 2017.
3 - China controls 80% of the world's Rare Earth mines. These are absolutely critical in the manufacture of EVs.
4 - The largest battery manufacturer in the world is Chinese.
5 - Tencent, one of China's biggest conglomerates (bigger market cap than Facebook) owns 5% of Tesla.
 

csalvato

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I hope Musk proves me wrong but I don't think Tesla will ever overtake China with EVs.

There are multiple reasons for this:

1 - The Chinese govt started their EV revolution 20 years ago.
2 - China is the biggest EV market in the world. 500K cars were sold in 2017.
3 - China controls 80% of the world's Rare Earth mines. These are absolutely critical in the manufacture of EVs.
4 - The largest battery manufacturer in the world is Chinese.
5 - Tencent, one of China's biggest conglomerates (bigger market cap than Facebook) owns 5% of Tesla.
Why would they even need to? Tesla is the most popular car brand in China at the moment. A rising tide raises all EV boats. China is not an enemy of Tesla

Tesla: More Google Searches Than Any Other Automaker In U.S./China
 

Sanj Modha

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Why would they even need to? Tesla is the most popular car brand in China at the moment. A rising tide raises all EV boats. China is not an enemy of Tesla

Tesla: More Google Searches Than Any Other Automaker In U.S./China
I'm expecting an onslaught from the Chinese brands and there's a few. Nio, BYD just off the top of my head are looking to make massive in-roads with China in 2019.

Warren Buffet is a big investor in BYD so watch out for them. There's also VW's big plan of selling 1m EVs/year. They're in the process of converting 16 global factories to meet that target.

I always go back to Tesla's limitations. According to Elon himself - they need 20 Giga-factories to sell anywhere close to the numbers they're forecasting.

You could be right - competition could raise the markets for all the manufacturers. It's an exciting time.
 

jon2089

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I'm expecting an onslaught from the Chinese brands and there's a few. Nio, BYD just off the top of my head are looking to make massive in-roads with China in 2019.

Warren Buffet is a big investor in BYD so watch out for them. There's also VW's big plan of selling 1m EVs/year. They're in the process of converting 16 global factories to meet that target.

I always go back to Tesla's limitations. According to Elon himself - they need 20 Giga-factories to sell anywhere close to the numbers they're forecasting.

You could be right - competition could raise the markets for all the manufacturers. It's an exciting time.
BYD needs to catch up on quality they are like 1990s Kias or Hyundais and Tesla is a premium brand like Bmw, Mercedes.
 

csalvato

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BYD needs to catch up on quality they are like 1990s Kias or Hyundais and Tesla is a premium brand like Bmw, Mercedes.
I don't know about BYD quality, but Tesla went through huge quality issues in their earlier days. A big part of it was their customers were being very particular about things like panel gaps. Model 3s are just now rounding a corner where fit and finish QA is hitting it's stride.

FWIW, It took Tesla about 2 years with each new model to work out fit and finish kinks. By the time I got my Model X, it was superior to almost every other car in it's class in fit and finish where detractors now focus on things like leather quality vs. things actually fitting and being stitched properly.
 

Sanj Modha

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BYD needs to catch up on quality they are like 1990s Kias or Hyundais and Tesla is a premium brand like Bmw, Mercedes.
We have BYD taxis where I live and they're not bad. They're certainly not at the quality level of the Model S but with Warren Buffet money backing them - I don't think it will take them long to start competing with Tesla.

Have you seen the Lucid Air? Now that's one hell of an EV.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePJ8xcL3HAE
 

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The Autobahn

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Here in Switzerland (and Norway) are a lot of Teslas... i dont think any one would spend 100K on a BYD or some unknown brand. I even see rarely Japanese cars (even they have excellent quality like Honda,Lexus,Toyota) most people who have money will either buy Tesla or the gas Fraction like Audi,Mercedes or BMW.
If they dont have a lot of money they will choose VW because the distribution is in Germany.

And in countries where the gas is cheap... they are at least 20 years away from getting electrified.
 

jon2089

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Shenzen went fully electric with their buses. Taxis are next.

They're using BYD to do this.

Where I live, Singapore, is perfect for EVs but apparently the Singaporean govt isn't interested in electric cars.

The economy relies on oil/gas exports.
Tesla is also opening a car/battery factory in Shanghai
 
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chuckypita

chuckypita

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Jul 16, 2017
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Yes it is, unless he's the one forcing the transactions.

You do business in the country you have, under the government you have, not in some libertarian utopia that doesn't exist.

There is nothing morally inconsistent with using the power of the state while concurrently saying it shouldn't have that power. A simple example of this is Nigel Farage: who uses the privileges granted to him by the EU regime to try and bring down that regime.

Otherwise you'll just be hobbling yourself, and you'll do no good.

People like you are just one more crabs-in-bucket loser trying to pull down one of the few men in the world who're actually moving us all forward. You're just an internet edgelord douchebag, and a libertarian society would blacklist you so hard you'd only be allowed tenancy in the desert.
Eh. I disagree. I'm actually quite successful. However, an ad hominem attack like you just gave showcases your level of ineptitude.

My question was simple, "Is Elon Musk a fraud?" and it had a voting platform. Your vote is good enough.

Thanks for reminding me of one of my favorite quotes: 'Never wrestle with pigs. You both get dirty and the pig likes it.'
 

MJ DeMarco

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Zcott

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I think this Ford advert is having a dig at Elon Musk and Tesla.
 

Roli

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I think this Ford advert is having a dig at Elon Musk and Tesla.
First they ignore you.

Then they mock you.

Then they copy you.
 

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jon2089

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Just test drove a model 3 last week. Definitely not a fraud much better then the audi a4 I tested a week before that.
 
OP
OP
chuckypita

chuckypita

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If you know anything about R&D and SG&A costs(Most people who worship Musk don't) you'd know that Musk's' companies are worthless.

Musk might be the greatest marketer of all time.
Does that mean I need to short TSLA?

By the way - there's a twitter feed called "TSLAQ" that is funny to follow!
 

rjrobbins2

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Calling him a fraud when you see Tesla's driving around, have seen his rockets launch, and likely seen videos of the Boring Company tunnels is foolish. There is literal proof he isnt a fraud all over the world. Tesla is popular for those that own them. When I can afford one, I plan on getting one.

Yes, he has a history of treating people poorly. I just read the Wired article by Charles Duhigg last night. Jobs was the same way. I dont have to like him as a person to recognize his genius.

I am not sure what profitability has to do with fraud. He is still providing value to people. There is more to the world than profit. Just look at what he did for Puerto Rico after the hurricane.
 
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Valhalla

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I can't believe I'm replying to this, but people who believes he's a fraud just lacks the imagination to believe what doesn't yet exist. Not everything he does turns to gold, not every decision is correct but at least he's got the balls to put it on the line and go bigger than anyone on the planet.
 
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