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I Hate the Idea of Being Equal!

Mattie

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Kevin88660

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As far as I know, every citizen in the US has the same rights - but some have special privileges. If the system was rigged, you would never see minority/POC politicians, athletes, celebrities, business owners, etc. Kinda breaks down the lies and myths.
........

Let me tell you a fact: If you took all the wealth from the wealthy people and gave it all to the poor, it would wind up back in the hands of the wealthy again. There is a reason why this is true. If you're smart you will know why.

Well there was even successful black female entrepreneur in Jim Crows era.

I think it is possible to develop a sense of personal responsibility and not bitching about it, and meanwhile recognising that everyone doesn’t begin with the same starting line.

Regarding about how wealthy people can recreate their wealth...It’s naive to think that all wealth has been created through the same methodologies. Here in Asia many invested in properties and made fortunes, by sheer dumb luck. Many wall street executives made their fortunes in the good years when everyone was drunk with debt and asset prices skyrocketed.

Even Mark Cuban said it if he was to start all over again he will be a salesperson in the day and bar tender at night and he will surely be a millionaire, but not a billionaire. Billionaire needs luck.
 

mikey3times

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The reality is, like it or not, some people are born with more ability, more drive, more potential.

I disagree. I think these are all learned traits. You aren’t born with them. You learn them. Some are born to parents who teach these traits. Some are born to parents who teach the opposite (usually unintentionally.) That is unfair, but can be overcome. However, how can someone overcome if they don’t know that an alternative exists?

It’s naive to think that all wealth has been created through the same methodologies. Here in Asia many invested in properties and made fortunes, by sheer dumb luck. Many wall street executives made their fortunes in the good years when everyone was drunk with debt and asset prices skyrocketed.

It isn’t luck. Those entrepreneurs identified an opportunity and jumped on it. If they had been around in a different era, I think they probably would have found another opportunity. They would have “been in the right place at the right time” no matter what. On the other hand, if they had been raised under different circumstances then they may not have had the right attitude. See above.

So, how do we make sure everyone has the same opportunity to learn how the system works? Our schools aren’t doing it (across the board.). Parents aren’t doing it (across the board.)

We should figure out how to teach people that there are two paths. Both paths are perfectly valid and honorable, but they have different outcomes. Here is everything you need to chose your path. Don’t complain to us if you chose poorly. And remember that you can always change paths later if you made a mistake.

I don’t think we have a society where there is equality in learning the above. I think there should be. I’m not sure it is possible the way society works. I don’t know.

This is an interesting conversation.
 

Kevin88660

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It isn’t luck. Those entrepreneurs identified an opportunity and jumped on it. If they had been around in a different era, I think they probably would have found another opportunity. They would have “been in the right place at the right time” no matter what. On the other hand, if they had been raised under different circumstances then they may not have had the right attitude. See above.
Many Chinese here in Asia are middle class slow laners who did not know what investing is and no ideas of how to read a balance sheets. Some played stocks and got burnt. So most money went into properties because it feels tangible and they didnt know what better to do.

It happened to be a good choice because central banks around the world responded to the crisis by printing money.

A lot of middle-class folks in China become millionaire as they used their spare cash to buy another property to rent out. What happen is that property price went up by ten times over the last twenty years. Many could retire easily just by selling one property to retire.

Lots of poor villagers in mainland China became overnight millionaires due to government land acquisitions. Under the old communist system a lot of villagers hold “agricultural land” that is actually owned by the government. These land cannot be used for commercial purposes other than farming. The government decides to acquire these land for city development and and in turn the villagers are compensated with condomniums in the city-instant multi-millionaires.

On the hand the Chinese factory owners who are producing consumer goods are struggling with trade war and rising labor cost.

Let us talk about wall street. Many investment bankers had million dollar bonuses packaging toxic mortgage backed securities in 2007. How did they create value?

I love to hear people talk about Steve Jobs and Elon Musk as the poster child for financial success. It is because they are so rare.

Yes, if you create value you are going to be successful, and with some luck it merely affects on the magnitude of success. But NOT every financially successful person reaches the place via the value path.
 
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mikey3times

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But NOT every financially successful person reaches the place via the value path.

You are right. Not every rich person got there by adding value. Lottery winners and people who inherited all of their wealth come to mind. However, many (most?) rich people built value.

I latched onto the words “invested” and “Wall Street executives”. Both of those indicate value added. Although you can always argue whether they added enough value to justify their payout. The market spoke in these cases. The market may take it all back.

Of course, they could have been cheaters, too. I still think the market will eventually speak and drive cheaters to zero.

There is a lot of nuance on both sides of the argument that needs to be accounted for. Alas, that is always the case.
 

Kevin88660

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You are right. Not every rich person got there by adding value. Lottery winners and people who inherited all of their wealth come to mind. However, many (most?) rich people built value.

I latched onto the words “invested” and “Wall Street executives”. Both of those indicate value added. Although you can always argue whether they added enough value to justify their payout. The market spoke in these cases. The market may take it all back.

Of course, they could have been cheaters, too. I still think the market will eventually speak and drive cheaters to zero.

There is a lot of nuance on both sides of the argument that needs to be accounted for. Alas, that is always the case.
It is not to say they cheated.

It is just right time right place. For the past twenty years a lot of wealth was created through “speculation” due to easy money from central banks. Most got rich because they participated directly or indirectly in the asset market.

Again some could be genius who saw it coming. But most are dumb luck.

People who create massive value, like Steve Jobs and Elon Musk are rare.

Most got rich because their properties, stocks and bonds went up multiple times in the past 25 years.

Look at Mark Cuban for example. He made his first six million in the 90s through buidling a computer hardware company-solid value being created.

He made his next billion through broadcast.com, a company that never makes money. He manages to sell it to yahoo during the tech bubble when the valuation was insane.

I repect him for having the humility to admit that he is being extremely lucky. He always said he can do it again to be a millionaire for sure but not a billionaire.
 

Kevin88660

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My view is simple. In the game of wealth luck is real. It is the general rule not an exception. Trying to say every financially successful people became where they are because of intellect or hardwork is trying to impose your own morality on the universe which does not care.

Hardwork and creating value of course are very important. But they are important in covering your downside rather than predicting the upside. if someone is a sidewalker it is likely entirely his or her own fault. Most lucky episodes requires a minimum amount of Hardwork too.

If you live in decent country with decent opportuntiy, and work your a$$ off on a business or a career, and provided you are not too unlucky (no traffic accident or critical illness), I believe that it is highly likely to attain 1-2 million dollars of net worth (excluding the house you live in). But how fast can you do that and how fat can you go beyond that really depends a lot on luck.
 
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Thoelt53

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My view is simple. In the game of wealth luck is real. It is the general rule not an exception. Trying to say every financially successful people became where they are because of intellect or hardwork is trying to impose your own morality on the universe which does not care.

Hardwork and creating value of course are very important. But they are important in covering your downside rather than predicting the upside. if someone is a sidewalker it is likely entirely his or her own fault. Most lucky episodes requires a minimum amount of Hardwork too.

If you live in decent country with decent opportuntiy, and work your a$$ off on a business or a career, and provided you are not too unlucky (no traffic accident or critical illness), I believe that it is highly likely to attain 1-2 million dollars of net worth (excluding the house you live in). But how fast can you do that and how fat can you go beyond that really depends a lot on luck.
Bullshit. Anyone putting 10k per year into a 401k @ 7% for 35 years would amass around $1.5M. It’s luck that you actually return 7% year after year.

Building a $20M company in 10 years isn’t luck. It’s about having the best product you can, understanding your customer better than anyone else, mastering sales and marketing, and understanding the fundamental mathematics behind why this all works. All of this requires hard work. Luck isn’t part of the equation.

Luck is just an excuse used by people who won’t do it. Rather than hurt their ego and accept that they weren’t willing to do what it takes, they can just blame “luck.”

Look! Mark Cuban said he got lucky! I guess I didn’t get lucky... that why I’m still broke. Not because I didn’t keep trying year after year... nope, not my fault. Mark Cuban said it was luck.
 

Strm

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p.s I do agree with you on the last two points - socialism is a good thing just look at DK, SWE, NO, FIN where education is free all the way to University, its a much more equal society. The rich will get their money back because of the knowledge the wealthy have that isn't provided in public schools/colleges most of the lower classes attend i.e we're not taught about capitalism, ownership, using credit to build wealth, entrepreneurship etc. we're just taught to be F*cking employees.

Yeah, go talk to norwegians who actually work and have a brain. I've been working there nearly 4 years and know what the real locals think about this. For example, people who have emigrated to Norway from arab or african countries. Free apartment (not a shithole, but with luxuries of course), money, no problem! Most of the norwegians (who are over 30 and have the ability to THINK) are sick of this shit.

My norwegian friend is working on a construction and every day theres a black guy (not sure where he is from, but not local) just chilling around on the site. He has never worked a minute there. One time a norwegian guy needed help with something and asked this dude to come and help him. He looked the norwegian guy like he was a F*cking idiot! Couple of days later the norwegian worker got a warning from the site supervisor or some chief guy because the black man went to him and complained. My friend asked his boss what the F*ck was going on. The boss said the government is paying this black dude 20K NOK (more than 2K euros) a month, just to show up on the site and doing nothing. Plus he got apartment just like that. No rent, no nothing. And now think about how much of this is going on all over Norway, for example? Talking about equality!
 

Kevin88660

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Bullshit. Anyone putting 10k per year into a 401k @ 7% for 35 years would amass around $1.5M. It’s luck that you actually return 7% year after year.

Building a $20M company in 10 years isn’t luck. It’s about having the best product you can, understanding your customer better than anyone else, mastering sales and marketing, and understanding the fundamental mathematics behind why this all works. All of this requires hard work. Luck isn’t part of the equation.

Luck is just an excuse used by people who won’t do it. Rather than hurt their ego and accept that they weren’t willing to do what it takes, they can just blame “luck.”

Look! Mark Cuban said he got lucky! I guess I didn’t get lucky... that why I’m still broke. Not because I didn’t keep trying year after year... nope, not my fault. Mark Cuban said it was luck.
I did not say you have to wait 35 years. With a fastlane business it could be done in 5 years. For most people to be a millionaire you do not need extraordinary luck but just hardwork.

Hardwork, grinding and business acumen is a prerequisite for success, but luck plays a far more important role usually in determining how far the person can go.

Come on you seriously believe that a person net-worth ten million had a business strategy five times better, or work way harder than a person net-worth two million?

Small success requires hardwork.

Big success requires hardwork AND luck.

For every mark zuckerberg out there, there are thousands of equally talented and hardworking young men in silicon vallye and elsewhere who are still trying to make it. That does not make them anyway less respectable to me.

In my view success is not just about achieving the financial results but also giving your best shots even though the odds are against you.

But it will be delusional to think that you have a lot of control when it comes to big successes like building a 20 million company in ten years.
 
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rogue synthetic

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Immanuel Kant is the guy who set this trend in motion when he convinced legions of bored aristocrats that "the good" is "whatever society says it is".

For these people, words ARE facts. He took "the word of God" and replaced it with "the word of society", implying that people create reality.

There's a lot to argue against in Kant's practical philosophy, but I'm wondering what gave you the impression that he ever wrote anything like this.

Kant says no such thing.

Rousseau, the Jacobins & the French revolutionaries, Hegel, Bentham and Mill, the 20th century positivists...these are all much better choices if you want to blame somebody for widespread moral constructivism. (Not that it would be right there, either, but it's at least somewhat believable.)

Kant, though, he was one of the few modern thinkers to defend objective standards of moral rightness, which makes this a confusing complaint.

Sorry for the derail but this thread seems to be derailing its derails, so why not?
 

DonTriumph

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Equality is good until you see yourself working hard, but you and your lazy neighbor get the same results... who wants that? Lol.

Only the lazy benefits from equality. The hardworking and pioneering are punished by this.

But as you pointed out, we should have an equal starting point (equal opportunities). Then it's up to us how will we make our lives from it.
 
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Kid

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@WJK - i'm not a fan of one word comments but : wow!

I'm not sure if its true or just rationalization but i see this crowd in this way:
There are people that ware aspiring to be different (unequal).
They failed hard ( you know because success needs some work...).

Then they found other people that also failed and they went:
"Whoa! Instead of being great we can fight anyone who tries to be or is great,
so no one will remind us of how we failed!".

Ironically the only way i find that is giving me a peace of mind is silence.
You just watch them like a comedy.
They talk something they have no idea about.
An you just smile thinking that under any rational discussion
they would just tumble down.

You can nod to them, even "look" interested in what they say.
...and hold your burst of laughter until they vanish around the corner.
 

Kevin88660

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Serial entrepreneurs like Steve Jobs and Elon Musk sure are unbelievably lucky...
Im no saying they made it entirely due to luck.

Elon Musk’s business persuits suffered many near death experience that would make the companies bankrupt. This means by laws of large number there are hundreds of other entrepreneurs who are equally talented and hardworking but did not make it as big.

When you see ultra-successful individual you need to factor in survivorship bias.
 
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Kak

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All of this luck philosophy is coming from a guy that wants to run cost benefit analysis on having children only so they can wipe his a$$ and put cream on his bed sores when he's old.

He also thinks women hit "peak value" at age 23.

So... I wouldn't worry too much about what @Kevin88660 says... he's got a screw loose.

Help. Girl Issues.
 

Kevin88660

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All of this luck philosophy is coming from a guy that wants to run cost benefit analysis on having children only so they can wipe his a$$ and put cream on his bed sores when he's old.

He also thinks women hit "peak value" at age 23.

So... I wouldn't worry too much about what @Kevin88660 says... he's got a screw loose.

Help. Girl Issues.
Luck philosophy?

Do you believe that a person net worth 10 million is twice as smart and hardworking as a person net worth 5 million, assuming both started their own business and got rich?

I have no problem with disagreement but make sure you clairfy what you believe in.

And you were quoting me out of context. I was talking about sexual market value and it applies to dating only. Youth is one variable and I am not saying it is the only variable. And it should be left in that thread.
 
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ZF Lee

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You are using a strawman argument. Now you’re touting racial differences when you originally were bitching about wealth distribution. Tenacity, leadership, skills, wisdom and work ethic absolutely matter to wealth distribution... Unlike “cake” distribution.

Why are there more blacks in prison? Well, because they commit more crimes than whites... Yeah I know, facts make me “racist.”
Is it me, or do more folks need to take statistics classes?

On blacks and crime, there's a lot more factors at play, namely where they stay, their education (I was shocked to find out that American kids are kind of limited to districts) and whether they can pick up a trade skill.

The good news is that lots of these factors can be controlled, as long as the folks receive the right support they need and give their best efforts.

Don't really understand the heckle behind racism. Having lived in a multi-racial country all my life, we're just like 'OK, we know you are different from me, and that's fine. Now, shall we go to the mamak shop (24-hour Indian-Muslim restaurant) for some food?' :rofl:
 

Kak

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Luck philosophy?

Do you believe that a person net worth 10 million is twice as smart and hardworking as a person net worth 5 million, assuming both started their own business and got rich?

I have no problem with disagreement but make sure you clairfy what you believe in.

And you were quoting me out of context. I was talking about sexual market value and it applies to dating only. Youth is one variable and I am not saying it is the only variable. And it should be left in that thread.

I never once said that hard work or intelligence was the only factor...

Most of the difference has to do with a larger vision and willingness to make the bigger sacrifice that entails. There are businesses that start out to be small, they might not admit it, but they do. They see a 5 million dollar business, not a 500 million dollar business. There are also proprietors that start out with their eyes on a world changing 10 figure business.

If you think the difference between a 3 million dollar company and a 3 billion dollar company is luck you are nuts.
 

Kevin88660

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I never once said that hard work or intelligence was the only factor...

Most of the difference has to do with a larger vision and willingness to make the bigger sacrifice that entails. There are businesses that start out to be small, they might not admit it, but they do. They see a 5 million dollar business, not a 500 million dollar business. There are also proprietors that start out with their eyes on a world changing 10 figure business.

If you think the difference between a 3 million dollar company and a 3 billion dollar company is luck you are nuts.
Some business indeed were started to be small. I am not comparing a local fastfood owner with a business aiming to take over the world.

I am talking exactly on the big ventures. Why only a few went big sucessfully while many others cannot. Luck plays a big part. That’s why venture capital invest in hundreds of start-ups, knowing only a few could make it. Why bother investing in the losers when they can just focus on investing in a few, by using an aptitude test to find out the “positive attributes” of the founder?

If I say that after a war the soldiers who came back alive are proven to be better soliders I would be nut. But many folks here seem to apply that to the world of business.
 
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Kak

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Some business indeed were started to be small. I am not comparing a local fastfood owner with a business aiming to take over the world.

I am talking exactly on the big ventures. Why only a few went big sucessfully while many others cannot. Luck plays a big part. That’s why venture capital invest in hundreds of start-ups, knowing only a few could make it. Why bother investing in the losers when they can just focus on investing in a few, by using an aptitude test to find out the “positive attributes” of the founder?

If I say that after a war the soldiers who came back alive are proven to be better soliders I would be nut. But many folks here seem to apply that to the world of business.

You have indirectly proven my point from a different angle with this post.

The VC firms play the losing and the winning hands... Why? Because they only thing that matters is that they keep playing hands. Just like in business... Because they are a business.

Now... The solider example is limited to a sample of one, binary chance at an outcome... Dead or Alive... As if they only get to flip the proverbial coin one time... It is nonsensical.
 

Kevin88660

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You have indirectly proven my point from a different angle with this post.

The VC firms play the losing and the winning hands... Why? Because they only thing that matters is that they keep playing hands. Just like in business... Because they are a business.

Now... The solider example is limited to a sample of one, binary chance at an outcome... Dead or Alive... As if they only get to flip the proverbial coin one time... It is nonsensical.
The VC does that because they cannot predict the winners and they largely know that it is outside the control of anyone. They would be better off in investing in winners only, instead of having only 2 out of 100 invested going really big and losing money on the rest.

Many business men went through big up and downs and their companies going through near bankruptcy multiple times. It is exactly binary. Space X and Tesla have exactly that kind of history. Elon Musk is a visionary, a workaholic and also a GAMBLER. He bet big and won big so far. I am not discrediting him in anyway but it would be naive to think how far he has achieved is not related to luck in a big way.
 

Kak

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The VC does that because they cannot predict the winners and they largely know that it is outside the control of anyone.

No, you are missing the entire point... They don't do this because they can't predict the winners... They do this because they can predict their own success with this model.

Elon musk is an outlier that you are using to represent all entrepreneurs.

The average billionaire/pentamillionaire became that way by taking calculated risks and reevaluating every time they failed. How is that different than the VC firm?
 
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Get Right

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But it will be delusional to think that you have a lot of control when it comes to big successes like building a 20 million company in ten years.

You might be surprised.
 

mikey3times

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You guys are arguing about LUCK in a thread about BEING EQUAL.

Maybe a mod can pull the luck posts out into a separate thread. I feel a bit guilty that I started the thread hijack. Just my luck.

@AllenCrawley
 
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ExaltedLife

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Kant, though, he was one of the few modern thinkers to defend objective standards of moral rightness, which makes this a confusing complaint.

"For if one removes from our experiences everything that belongs to the senses, there still remain certain original concepts and the judgments generated from them, which must have arisen entirely a priori, independently of experience, because they make one able to say more about the objects that appear to the senses than mere experience would teach, or at least make one believe that one can say this, and make assertions contain true universality and strict necessity, the likes of which merely empirical cognition can never afford."

That's from Critique of Pure Reason. It's wrong, of course: all concepts originally arise from the senses. The point is, how could a guy who believes that 'a priori' is valid do anything to defend objectivity in any form? A priori is the antithesis of objectivity.

The idea of Kant defending objective morality is absurd. Here's another line from "Metaphysics of morals":

"What I have said makes ·five things· clear: that •all moral concepts have their origin entirely a priori in reason" - pg. 17 chapter 2

What exactly does 'objectivity' mean to you?

Kant's moral standards were based on "Duty", which is an entirely non-objective concept. Duty is the idea that you have a moral obligation to do something regardless of whether you want to, regardless whether you receive a reward from it, regardless of whether it is good for you or bad for you. The source of the moral obligation? Always goes back to 'laws of society' in his writing.

He even claimed that, if you get a reward for an action, it's not virtuous, ie. Working hard to build a business is not virtuous if you do it to make money. However if you do it out of a sense of duty to donate all your money to charity, it IS virtuous.

Look at this f*cked up passage from "Groundwork of the Metaphysics of Morals":

It is a duty to preserve one’s life, and moreover everyone directly wants to do so. But because of ·the power of· that want, the often anxious care that most men have for their survival has no intrinsic worth, and the maxim Preserve yourself has no moral content. Men preserve their lives according to duty, but not from duty.

That means that when people act to stay alive because they WANT to stay alive, it has no moral worth, because THEY want it. Ie. It's 'selfish' and therefore not good.

Don't get it twisted. Kant was pure evil. Why do you think these guys love him so much?

Warning: the following video is the worst thing ever.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMQkV5cTuoY


They even get a child to yell: "Read Kant, Cunt!". Do those people look familiar to you? They're the epitome of the PC Police.

Kant's motive from the beginning was always to convince people that they were incapable of understanding reality so that they would become mindlessly obedient followers - not for any real purpose; he just hated mankind. He wanted them to feel like their own desires had no value, which at the end of the day, implies that THEY have no value. Here's another quote by that POS. Think about it.

"Out of timber so crooked as that from which man is made nothing entirely straight can be carved."
 
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ExaltedLife

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I know it’s not effective to voice those opinions so I voice fake opinions which helps me gain trust, persuasiveness and therefore more power.

Each person I meet I think “what can this person do for me?” And then “what do I need to say to make that happen?” And it takes care of itself.

I just nod and smile and do whatever it takes to be liked without saying anything real

say whatever will get people to love you

You say this here, in the Fastlane Forum, a place full of intelligent self made millionaires....


Yeah I see things going great for you in the long term.
 

DayIFly

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Yeah, go talk to norwegians who actually work and have a brain. I've been working there nearly 4 years and know what the real locals think about this. For example, people who have emigrated to Norway from arab or african countries. Free apartment (not a shithole, but with luxuries of course), money, no problem! Most of the norwegians (who are over 30 and have the ability to THINK) are sick of this shit.

My norwegian friend is working on a construction and every day theres a black guy (not sure where he is from, but not local) just chilling around on the site. He has never worked a minute there. One time a norwegian guy needed help with something and asked this dude to come and help him. He looked the norwegian guy like he was a F*cking idiot! Couple of days later the norwegian worker got a warning from the site supervisor or some chief guy because the black man went to him and complained. My friend asked his boss what the F*ck was going on. The boss said the government is paying this black dude 20K NOK (more than 2K euros) a month, just to show up on the site and doing nothing. Plus he got apartment just like that. No rent, no nothing. And now think about how much of this is going on all over Norway, for example? Talking about equality!

It's the exact same thing in Germany. You don't even need to work. I know of a case where a migrant family with 7 children gets €3900, free health care & an apartment/house. That's ~€5500 AFTER tax, i.e. almost $6200. That's a six figure income for doing nothing. How do you explain this to people who work full time and earn less for their families? It's an obvious incentive to simply quit the job (or emigrate because of the taxes). Of course nobody does this, because it's more culturally common to work, save and then later on get maybe 1-2 children. Also, how do you explain this to pensioners who worked their whole life, paid taxes and now get €1200-1300? Socialism is a joke, it's luring people in from all over the world. Who will pay for all of this?

The whole German surplus of 2018 went into a reserve fund created for this nonsense. A mere 15 million is carrying the whole system, i.e. people who do real work, create real things/services of value, and are independent of the government. All the other people work in bureaucracy or those artificially created servicing industries. Only 8 million of those 15 million are younger than 45. And 80k+ emigrate every year and don't come back, that's 1% of those 8 mio. I don't know how long this will go on, but with the digitalization & automation of things, I don't see good things on the horizon for the majority of the population. And if the majority is unhappy, those who see opportunities and build businesses will constantly fear destablization of the status quo. This is a psychological burden.
 

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