How does a culture survive when a whole generation refuses to work?

[MJ DeMarco]

The question begs...

How can any culture survive as the younger generations, more and more, refuse to work? Refuse to labor? When they view "goals" as sitting around all day watching Tiktok videos and fingerpainting?

Pardon the VOX link, but if this is the majority thought-line in the younger generations, America will be officially dead faster than I thought.

Gen Z does not dream of labor

On TikTok and online, the youngest workers are rejecting work as we know it. How will that play out IRL?

www.vox.com

Question is, is this mindset really a fringe minority, or a majority opinion? If so, once again, giving a broader voice to a radical fringe gives the illusion that an entire generation might think like this, giving it acceptability. The younger millennials and gen-z'ers in my life have NOT embraced anti-labor, or anti-work, and actually are pretty goal oriented.

 

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[McAdam]

I think the root of this is the "Instant Reward" mentality that's been taught more and more from a young age.
People seem to now live with an expectance - rather than realize they only get what they put in.

I don't think it's as widely spread as people make it out to be. But it is growing rapidly.
That article (did not open due to opinions of Vox) just ticks the confirmation bias of those who do believe, and for others its inviting them to take the easy way.

Maybe in the future there will be a new pre-level ahead of the side-walk... people who think they don't need to do anything at all.

 

[MTF]

They can only refuse to work for so long. Eventually they'll run out of cash. So IMO it's a self-correcting problem.

 

[JunkBoxJoey_JBJ]

Anyone looking for quick, great advice from a 71 year old about work ethic and community ...this:

Mattress Mack lost $9.5 million on the Super Bowl (and was happy about it) - Noah Kagan

Subscribe: Apple Podcasts / Spotify In today’s episode, I talk to Jim McIngvale, aka. Mattress Mack. You may actually have heard of this guy. Mack made a $9.5 million bet on the Cincinnati Bengals during the Super Bowl — he lost. You might think he has a crazy gambling problem. But actually...

okdork.com

 

[ZCP]

In my uni classes I teach, I actually see the opposite. A group of young kids that WANT to do something important and make a life for themselves. They just don't know how OR if it will be worth it.

We've got to show them 'there is another way' other than the script. They are thirsting for the knowledge AND will put in the work if there is some reward. They do NOT want to be their parents and work forever for nothing. Great opportunity.

 

[Andy Black]

The question begs...

How can any culture survive as the younger generations, more and more, refuse to work? Refuse to labor? When they view "goals" as sitting around all day watching Tiktok videos and fingerpainting?

Pardon the VOX link, but if this is the majority thought-line in the younger generations, America will be officially dead faster than I thought.

Gen Z does not dream of labor

On TikTok and online, the youngest workers are rejecting work as we know it. How will that play out IRL?

www.vox.com

Question is, is this mindset really a fringe minority, or a majority opinion? If so, once again, giving a broader voice to a radical fringe gives the illusion that an entire generation might think like this, giving it acceptability. The younger millennials and gen-z'ers in my life have NOT embraced anti-labor, or anti-work, and actually are pretty goal oriented.

I read the article and it wasn’t as negative as I thought.

“Carson doesn’t think that most zoomers are actually anti-work, at least from a political perspective. In fact, she said, she thinks it’s the opposite: She has noticed more young people publicly committing to quit an undesirable job so that they can devote more time to learning new skills, in the hopes of entering a field like tech, which boasts high salaries and good benefits. Many have also left behind corporate roles to work as full-time content creators or freelancers.”

 

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[heavy_industry]

People are free to experiment with various ways of thinking.

Fortunately, or unfortunately, there is this thing called "natural selection".
Most people that have the anti-work mentality are up to a very rude awakening by the time they are 30. If they somehow didn't completely run out of money by this point, most of them will be crippled with depression and the guilt that they have wasted / are wasting their lives.

Even if eventually it will get to a point where resources will become cheaper and cheaper, and most of the population will benefit from some kind of universal basic income, work will still be a fundamental part of the human experience, because it fulfills a fundamental psychological need.

If that wasn't the case, all billionaires would retire and live on the beach for the rest of their life. But that's not what is happening. They work endlessly, because work brings meaning in their life.

And there is no point in living a life without meaning.

 

[Guest-5ty5s4]

People are free to experiment with various ways of thinking.

Fortunately, or unfortunately, there is this thing called "natural selection".
Most people that have the anti-work mentality are up to a very rude awakening by the time they are 30. If they somehow didn't completely run out of money by this point, most of them will be crippled with depression and the guilt that they have wasted / are wasting their lives.

Even if eventually it will get to a point where resources will become cheaper and cheaper, and most of the population will benefit from some kind of universal basic income, work will still be a fundamental part of the human experience, because it fulfills a fundamental psychological need.

If that wasn't the case, all billionaires would retire and live on the beach for the rest of their life. But that's not what is happening. They work endlessly, because work brings meaning in their life.

And there is no point in living a life without meaning.

The problem is, they vote.

 

[Johnny boy]

The issue is not that they don't want to work. It's pretty logical to selfishly want things and to not have to work.

The issue is that you can just collect money for nothing and stay at home and smoke weed and still survive because you get $600 a week to be a piece of shit.

UBI is going to turn our society into a sharp split between 2 classes, the leeches who live off it and are complete degenerate trash, and the higher paid people who improve their lives. Eventually it will creep up until most are living solely on a high UBI and are dependent on like 5% of people who aren't trash at that point.

A child with any common sense could tell you that letting people have free shit for nothing is a great way to get people to do nothing.

Almost as if it was on purpose.....

 

[Guest-5ty5s4]

The issue is not that they don't want to work. It's pretty logical to selfishly want things and to not have to work.

The issue is that you can just collect money for nothing and stay at home and smoke weed and still survive because you get $600 a week to be a piece of shit.

UBI is going to turn our society into a sharp split between 2 classes, the leeches who live off it and are complete degenerate trash, and the higher paid people who improve their lives. Eventually it will creep up until most are living solely on a high UBI and are dependent on like 5% of people who aren't trash at that point.

A child with any common sense could tell you that letting people have free shit for nothing is a great way to get people to do nothing.

Almost as if it was on purpose.....

This will be most people, just also high on drugs and very happy and giggly:

Aldous Huxley and Ray Bradbury were more accurate than George Orwell IMO

 

[bartmr]

The question begs...

How can any culture survive as the younger generations, more and more, refuse to work? Refuse to labor? When they view "goals" as sitting around all day watching Tiktok videos and fingerpainting?

Pardon the VOX link, but if this is the majority thought-line in the younger generations, America will be officially dead faster than I thought.

Gen Z does not dream of labor

On TikTok and online, the youngest workers are rejecting work as we know it. How will that play out IRL?

www.vox.com

Question is, is this mindset really a fringe minority, or a majority opinion? If so, once again, giving a broader voice to a radical fringe gives the illusion that an entire generation might think like this, giving it acceptability. The younger millennials and gen-z'ers in my life have NOT embraced anti-labor, or anti-work, and actually are pretty goal oriented.

Let them. Higher salaries and more perks (like 4 day work week) for the more specialized working force that is still left.

 

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[Guyfieri5]

My friend group at least doesn't operate this way. I haven't met many who have given up on work. My experiences are anecdotal though so I couldn't tell you what the true numbers are. I will say as a younger guy it is easy to stand out among other younger people with even a minimal amount of self-improvement.

My high school buddy and I are serious about self-development and he has a college friend that fits the "Jeffery" category. He half-asses his job, eats like crap, drinks almost every night, and plays hours of COD after work. He has other friends just like him and they have no issue with this lifestyle. It's interesting to watch but he still functions somehow. My buddy and I always joke that we just keep up with him to see how our lives compare at thirty lol. Mean but the truth. We do try our best to get him to take his life seriously though.

 

[Guyfieri5]

This will be most people, just also high on drugs and very happy and giggly:

Aldous Huxley and Ray Bradbury were more accurate than George Orwell IMO

Huxley was right for sure. Why use force when you can seduce the masses with psychotropic drugs, alcohol, and video games? It's insane how immersive video games are now.

 

[DougRMR]

In my uni classes I teach, I actually see the opposite. A group of young kids that WANT to do something important and make a life for themselves. They just don't know how OR if it will be worth it.

We've got to show them 'there is another way' other than the script. They are thirsting for the knowledge AND will put in the work if there is some reward. They do NOT want to be their parents and work forever for nothing. Great opportunity.

This. Most of the young dudes I know who "don't wanna work" are really just normal people waking up to the fact that maybe a 9-5 for the rest of your life doesn't give nearly the same rewards it did back in the day. I'm not saying there aren't lazy bums out there but I've crunched the numbers and there's no way to live comfortably off a 9-5 unless it's a trade. Aside from that, you're gonna be living paycheck to paycheck. At least not where I live.

Hell, maybe it didn't even work back in the day, as most of my parent's generation are still working to make ends meet or sometimes outright struggling (my parent's case). I'm so grateful I learned about the fastlane but goddamn is it demoralizing

 

[ZCP]

something i'm doing to help ....

HOT! - MINDSET - @ZCP finally takes a step forward to help more people!

Some of you know that I own and run an engineering company. Others of you know that I've been teaching engineering for a little while now at the local university. Many of you know that I'm really big into making an IMPACT. So after a lot of pushing by other Fastlaners, I finally got around to...

www.thefastlaneforum.com

 

[Silverfox148]

Fascinating topic, based on first hand experience with my own kids/siblings/peers I do not believe this is a fringe minority but I don't believe it is the majority yet but I do believe it will be the vast majority in the next 15-20 years.

I used to condemn and judge lazy people as some are doing in this thread but I no longer do because the issue is much more nuanced than what it appears and has multiple roots/complexities to it. I started to work at 14 years old, the whole summer on a farm in New Mexico , walking up and down rows of cotton with a garden hoe for about 10-12 hours a day, at the time I was pleased to be working and helping out the family, I worked this job for the next 6-7 years each summer. My whole family were immigrants from Mexico and we were all ready to work and quite proud to do so, working was/is a big part of our identity and culture it was how we survived both in Mexico and the United States.

Fast forward a few decades and now I have my own 10 year old son along with two other kids, living nice and comfy in the suburbs in a big house with AC/pool/video games. His life could not be any more different than mine, he has access to computers, my own huge personal library of books, a very educated father who can help him with any subject/problem/etc and a very supportive mother.
Can you guess what his work ethic is? It's pretty damm low is what it is, for some things zero.

This is where my empathy comes in after having children and watching them closely, the work ethic is just not needed, it's not necessary for their survival and they know it. I can talk to them until I'm blue in the face about how my family lived in small trailer for a few New Mexico winters and we could only heat the only bedroom in the trailer and I used to sleep under my sisters crib and my mom and dad on the only bed, but in reality it means jack shit them. I could talk about how I came to the US at 7 years old knowing no English and I had to learn on the fly because none of my classmates spoke Spanish nor any of the teachers at the time, talk about having to develop a work ethic right quick. All that means jack shit to them, it's the same as talking about George Washington wintering at Valley Forge , "ok cool but what does that have to do with me?"

This country is going into a cycle were there are going to be some massive problems that can no longer be papered over with Federal Reserve dollars, there will be massive opportunities but there will be massive pain also. The problem is deeply ingrained in the culture/society/bussiness/educational system/etc.

I blame nor judge anyone for taking any strategy they deem fit for their survival including sitting around collecting food stamps/welfare/UBI etc. The only people I would even shake my head at is the people heading into the buzz saw of go to school->go to college ->get debt ->get married -> have kids -> get a divorce -> get sick -> pay child support ->get married again(hope it sticks this time) -> get some more debt -> get sick -> and on and on. I actually welcome this newer generation trying something different even if it means I personally may not approve of it.

 

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[Anon3114]

Thank god things change.

 

[Aditya Gunjal]

Fascinating topic, based on first hand experience with my own kids/siblings/peers I do not believe this is a fringe minority but I don't believe it is the majority yet but I do believe it will be the vast majority in the next 15-20 years.

I used to condemn and judge lazy people as some are doing in this thread but I no longer do because the issue is much more nuanced than what it appears and has multiple roots/complexities to it. I started to work at 14 years old, the whole summer on a farm in New Mexico , walking up and down rows of cotton with a garden hoe for about 10-12 hours a day, at the time I was pleased to be working and helping out the family, I worked this job for the next 6-7 years each summer. My whole family were immigrants from Mexico and we were all ready to work and quite proud to do so, working was/is a big part of our identity and culture it was how we survived both in Mexico and the United States.

Fast forward a few decades and now I have my own 10 year old son along with two other kids, living nice and comfy in the suburbs in a big house with AC/pool/video games. His life could not be any more different than mine, he has access to computers, my own huge personal library of books, a very educated father who can help him with any subject/problem/etc and a very supportive mother.
Can you guess what his work ethic is? It's pretty damm low is what it is, for some things zero.

This is where my empathy comes in after having children and watching them closely, the work ethic is just not needed, it's not necessary for their survival and they know it. I can talk to them until I'm blue in the face about how my family lived in small trailer for a few New Mexico winters and we could only heat the only bedroom in the trailer and I used to sleep under my sisters crib and my mom and dad on the only bed, but in reality it means jack shit them. I could talk about how I came to the US at 7 years old knowing no English and I had to learn on the fly because none of my classmates spoke Spanish nor any of the teachers at the time, talk about having to develop a work ethic right quick. All that means jack shit to them, it's the same as talking about George Washington wintering at Valley Forge , "ok cool but what does that have to do with me?"

This country is going into a cycle were there are going to be some massive problems that can no longer be papered over with Federal Reserve dollars, there will be massive opportunities but there will be massive pain also. The problem is deeply ingrained in the culture/society/bussiness/educational system/etc.

I blame nor judge anyone for taking any strategy they deem fit for their survival including sitting around collecting food stamps/welfare/UBI etc. The only people I would even shake my head at is the people heading into the buzz saw of go to school->go to college ->get debt ->get married -> have kids -> get a divorce -> get sick -> pay child support ->get married again(hope it sticks this time) -> get some more debt -> get sick -> and on and on. I actually welcome this newer generation trying something different even if it means I personally may not approve of it.

I think the most fundamental reason we work or do something is to get "comfortable" or you can say happiness is somehow related to being comfortable. You worked hard in your younger age because you knew that without working you will never get any comfort in your life, at least financially and for some people work it self is comforting.

Fascinating topic, based on first hand experience with my own kids/siblings/peers I do not believe this is a fringe minority but I don't believe it is the majority yet but I do believe it will be the vast majority in the next 15-20 years.

I used to condemn and judge lazy people as some are doing in this thread but I no longer do because the issue is much more nuanced than what it appears and has multiple roots/complexities to it. I started to work at 14 years old, the whole summer on a farm in New Mexico , walking up and down rows of cotton with a garden hoe for about 10-12 hours a day, at the time I was pleased to be working and helping out the family, I worked this job for the next 6-7 years each summer. My whole family were immigrants from Mexico and we were all ready to work and quite proud to do so, working was/is a big part of our identity and culture it was how we survived both in Mexico and the United States.

Fast forward a few decades and now I have my own 10 year old son along with two other kids, living nice and comfy in the suburbs in a big house with AC/pool/video games. His life could not be any more different than mine, he has access to computers, my own huge personal library of books, a very educated father who can help him with any subject/problem/etc and a very supportive mother.
Can you guess what his work ethic is? It's pretty damm low is what it is, for some things zero.

This is where my empathy comes in after having children and watching them closely, the work ethic is just not needed, it's not necessary for their survival and they know it. I can talk to them until I'm blue in the face about how my family lived in small trailer for a few New Mexico winters and we could only heat the only bedroom in the trailer and I used to sleep under my sisters crib and my mom and dad on the only bed, but in reality it means jack shit them. I could talk about how I came to the US at 7 years old knowing no English and I had to learn on the fly because none of my classmates spoke Spanish nor any of the teachers at the time, talk about having to develop a work ethic right quick. All that means jack shit to them, it's the same as talking about George Washington wintering at Valley Forge , "ok cool but what does that have to do with me?"

This country is going into a cycle were there are going to be some massive problems that can no longer be papered over with Federal Reserve dollars, there will be massive opportunities but there will be massive pain also. The problem is deeply ingrained in the culture/society/bussiness/educational system/etc.

I blame nor judge anyone for taking any strategy they deem fit for their survival including sitting around collecting food stamps/welfare/UBI etc. The only people I would even shake my head at is the people heading into the buzz saw of go to school->go to college ->get debt ->get married -> have kids -> get a divorce -> get sick -> pay child support ->get married again(hope it sticks this time) -> get some more debt -> get sick -> and on and on. I actually welcome this newer generation trying something different even if it means I personally may not approve of it.

Fascinating topic, based on first hand experience with my own kids/siblings/peers I do not believe this is a fringe minority but I don't believe it is the majority yet but I do believe it will be the vast majority in the next 15-20 years.

I used to condemn and judge lazy people as some are doing in this thread but I no longer do because the issue is much more nuanced than what it appears and has multiple roots/complexities to it. I started to work at 14 years old, the whole summer on a farm in New Mexico , walking up and down rows of cotton with a garden hoe for about 10-12 hours a day, at the time I was pleased to be working and helping out the family, I worked this job for the next 6-7 years each summer. My whole family were immigrants from Mexico and we were all ready to work and quite proud to do so, working was/is a big part of our identity and culture it was how we survived both in Mexico and the United States.

Fast forward a few decades and now I have my own 10 year old son along with two other kids, living nice and comfy in the suburbs in a big house with AC/pool/video games. His life could not be any more different than mine, he has access to computers, my own huge personal library of books, a very educated father who can help him with any subject/problem/etc and a very supportive mother.
Can you guess what his work ethic is? It's pretty damm low is what it is, for some things zero.

This is where my empathy comes in after having children and watching them closely, the work ethic is just not needed, it's not necessary for their survival and they know it. I can talk to them until I'm blue in the face about how my family lived in small trailer for a few New Mexico winters and we could only heat the only bedroom in the trailer and I used to sleep under my sisters crib and my mom and dad on the only bed, but in reality it means jack shit them. I could talk about how I came to the US at 7 years old knowing no English and I had to learn on the fly because none of my classmates spoke Spanish nor any of the teachers at the time, talk about having to develop a work ethic right quick. All that means jack shit to them, it's the same as talking about George Washington wintering at Valley Forge , "ok cool but what does that have to do with me?"

This country is going into a cycle were there are going to be some massive problems that can no longer be papered over with Federal Reserve dollars, there will be massive opportunities but there will be massive pain also. The problem is deeply ingrained in the culture/society/bussiness/educational system/etc.

I blame nor judge anyone for taking any strategy they deem fit for their survival including sitting around collecting food stamps/welfare/UBI etc. The only people I would even shake my head at is the people heading into the buzz saw of go to school->go to college ->get debt ->get married -> have kids -> get a divorce -> get sick -> pay child support ->get married again(hope it sticks this time) -> get some more debt -> get sick -> and on and on. I actually welcome this newer generation trying something different even if it means I personally may not approve of it.

I think the most fundamental reason we work or do something is to get "comfortable" or you can say happiness is somehow related to being comfortable. You worked hard in your younger age because you knew that without working you will never get any comfort in your life, at least financially and for some people work it self is comforting.

But as we all know getting out of comfort zone is important to grow ourselves, the problem with my generation is most of them have comfortable house, they get good food on table each day, and their school is getting paid by parents with tv and other subscription of whatever that shit is netflix, Amazon. Meaning that their basic needs (food water shelter and entertainment) are all taken care of just by doing nothing. This induces an effect on our minds that this will last foever and we will never have to work which reflects this anti-work shit.
And those that understand work is fundamental part of life even if our basic needs are taken care off will work anyways and others will see what they have unleashed upon them.
I dont know ubi but i think its some sort of aid for these people who dont want to work, for how many days this aid will work,for how many days these people are not going to work. For very short amount of time.
In my country there is no such culture as antiwork(at least in my knowledge) because my government does have money to pay for such shit(it doesn't have money for many other things too), many farmers die from suicide here even they cannot be saved, these antiwork type of people are far away.
And as someone said in above threads "natural selection and survival of fittest" are things to be thought of we will see its consequences.

 

[Antifragile]

The younger millennials and gen-z'ers in my life have NOT embraced anti-labor, or anti-work, and actually are pretty goal oriented

This is my observation too. Fringe minority + visibility bias due to poor choice media coverage.

Today, younger people I meet work hard. Double income jobs, side hustling etc. few lazy entitles bums get to piss against the wind and complain. Just remember, unless their “wealthy” baby boomer grandparents pass on enough to bail them out (or parents), no one is coming to feed them.

In short, it’s not a problem IMO.

 

[peddletothemetal]

Good thread, something I've both felt a part of in the past and think of a lot.

I think it comes down to pain. Without pain, there is no motivation.

Dentists make most of their money this way. People only show up once their mouth is in too much pain not to, and then they get the big bucks out of them from expensive interventions. They don't make much money from checkups.

If they feel no pain when they don't do anything, they won't do anything unless it causes greater IMMEDIATE pleasure. The problem is work is usually painful, not pleasurable (but it can be).

As a manager I've seen this with my own staff. Some of them are taking precisely the amount of sick leave they can get away with without getting flagged. If they get flagged, that'll be painful to them. If they work more than that, well they'd rather be doing something else, so that's painful too.

So my levers are only: I make it more painful to slack off, via threats etc, but I'm constrained by the labor market on that; or I structure the work in a way that makes it more pleasurable, so they decide they'd rather work on finishing that cool project than spend that day jerking off.

But it's not just a daily thing though. Take Musk, for instance. Why is he so driven? Why were Jobs, Ellison, Rockefeller, Agassi? They had a specific pain baked into them from childhood, that has driven them to work as hard as they have/did. That said, so did monsters like Hitler, Stalin, or for example more modernly, Breivik. The latter were equally driven, you'd have to be to do what they did, but the results of their drive was destructive rather than productive (although unfortunately many people even today disagree, Putin on Stalin, for instance).

It think this is how it manifests. We know that wealth corrupts. Wealthy countries have a population who is so comfortable they have little motivation to push themselves. Those people have kids. They don't push themselves when it comes to that either. They either self-indulge to the extent they neglect their kids, which messes them up in various ways, often outlet via leftist politics and the like; or they do nothing to push them, in which case they become a comfort-seeking lazy consumer, working out how to wring the most out of their job with the least effort.

So I think in the end, its a case of just worry about your own. Proactively make sure you aren't a garbage parent who raises messed up or lazy kids. Make sure you screen the living hell out of your staff (I like making interviews harsh or at harsh times if you can pull it off, e.g. 6am on Sunday, because no parasite could ever physically show up for that) so you don't harbor any parasites. And as for everyone else: unless you're the king, it's not your problem and there's nothing you can do.

 

[Angler]

It probably appeals to the youths, who are using social media or play on their phones often. It could be the quick access to instant dopamine sources... porn, games, and social media. All these things give the beholder(assumingly a minority of the gen Z youth) the illusion of infinite choices. It makes them feel a little better about pushing decisions off to tomorrow land. probably because oh, I can probably blow up or get money if I really wanted to. Event idealization...

Or maybe they're overwhelm with choices and still are living comfortably under their parents roof, with freebies coming in left and right(entertainment/allowance money). It's the know your "why" and you will manage the "how" and the "what".

It can be difficult to figure out what you want to do when distraction is just a tap or two away(assuming you're comfortable and not busy busting your a$$ to have enough money for food). Porn. Games. Media.
When their why is either "I don't want to go hungry and live on the street or disappoint my future goals", then choices become much much easier... solely because the next few right choices become singular.

The choices either move them forward, or backward.

I will eat, or I won't.
I will gain self-esteem, or I will disappoint myself.

Until they see their infinite possibility as a diminishing return equation because of the constant called time... Whether it be rent money, food, or relationships turning sour, they won't feel the need to make a decision that has stakes to it. At least not yet.

WHEN time becomes important in their bigger picture...

Not doing this means hunger, TODAY.
Not doing this means the lost of self-trust, NOW.
Not doing this means the losing of time. FOREVER. IT'S GONE.
Not doing this means being a loner for the rest of their life. PERPETUAL.

waking up and getting your sh*t together is easy.

All the slouching around and playing not to lose by using the I refuse to work card will lead to a huge FTE.
If not, then they might come to make hunger, low-self esteem, or time wasting a normalize experience.

 

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[Kak]

The problem is, they vote.

The problem is production is what drives and maintains civilization.

So they’ll obviously vote to rob those that produce at gunpoint…

They say the problem with socialism is that eventually they run out of other people’s money. It doesn’t stop there. The biggest problem would be eroding everyone’s motivation to produce and the subsequent government created starvation. Running out of people’s willingness to produce for others for less and less profit… That’s the real problem.

With no motivation to produce. People won’t produce. It actually happened to the very first immigrants to America. I did a radio show on it. I believe it was called “communism was the original way to ruin thanksgiving.”

 

[fastlane_dad]

Just another 'extremist' social media trend that will take its phase and pass.

It doesn't help that the divide is 'seen' more now as well - locally and on social media. House prices are astronomical (I keep questioning how someone getting out of college now can afford an average home in Scottsdale even 'saving' up for a few years, or a decade). The amount of 200K+ SUVs driving around is staggering. Not to mention that everyone on social media is 'balling'. The media also portrays that you should have it all - and whats even better you should get it in an 'event' type of way.

This can all be seen as motivating or discouraging - but for someone buried in college debt, with the average starting salary of ($55K) - has a LONG way to go to see the much more visible riches displayed all around us, even if that life is financed.

We're no longer in MJs original story of seeing a unicorn Lambo at the ice cream parlor once in a blue moon. I see FIVE just on my way to the office and back daily.

A person of my mentality / personality would naturally be driven to seek out ways to make it happen (thus the fastlane approach) - but I can TOTALLY see the flip side of it all and acting out 'To he** with all this I don't want to work anymore'. But that can only last so long.

 

[JordanK]

There are a few different things pushing this in my opinion as a 24 year old from Ireland.

Rent prices being so high especially in cities means younger people are more willing to live at home and earn less. Why bother moving into the city and having all your income hoovered up in rent costs. Many smart young people here on the forum are using this saved money to improve their lives and start businesses but the majority of people I know that live at home use this money for parties, drugs, trips abroad, fashion or social media flexing items.

Others are living at home with low COL expenses, making 1-2k monthly from a 'hustle' like personal training or an online business/freelancing then promoting themselves on social media and living a cool lifestyle traveling etc.. but they'll never own a home or save enough to progress.

Third category I have noticed are people who's wages wouldn't compare to anything mommy or daddy could give them. Earn a little bit of money from a hobby/hustle to keep them going but ultimately it's being topped up by the parents. In many cases this might not be a completely one sided relationship as the kids might be expected to work in a family business or take it over in time. Many type of young people in this scenario are pursuing arts/music/acting type of careers but they have the blue collar type businesses of their parents to fall back on (farming, industrial, retail, services, construction etc)

The final category are the stimmy check/crypto/nft homerunners. I know a good few people who made 50-100k during the bull run on these type of asset classes (2019-2021). They are living lavish now and going on lots of trips/flexing but the cash will run out eventually by 2023-2025.

Edit: Also cheap money is making everything accessible now. You can borrow lots of money to live nicely off now and delay having to do anything major with your life. Will be interesting to see what happens to these type people when interest rates rise. I'm talking about the HELOC people who release equity from their homes to pay for them or their kids lifestyles. Also, student loans - vacation loans, car loans, personal loans.

 

[Silverfox148]

With no motivation to produce. People won’t produce. It actually happened to the very first immigrants to America. I did a radio show on it. I believe it was called “communism was the original way to ruin thanksgiving.”

I agree on this point 100%, I see it in my own kids. Motivation for most ultimately equates to survival and that's just simply not at stake in the West, heck even in Mexico to which I travel often and I was born in, is a lot more rough and tumble you see shades of this problem more and more.

The ultimate answer to this is very complex, as I would argue the current societal/economic/culture of the west is what has brought us here.

 

[Kak]

I agree on this point 100%, I see it in my own kids. Motivation for most ultimately equates to survival and that's just simply not at stake in the West, heck even in Mexico to which I travel often and I was born in, is a lot more rough and tumble you see shades of this problem more and more.

The ultimate answer to this is very complex, as I would argue the current societal/economic/culture of the west is what has brought us here.

Right, it comes down to a profit motive... "Will I get something I want for all of this expended effort?" AND "Do I want it bad enough to make the effort?"

The closer and closer those answers get to "NO" the less and less of that work will be accomplished.

I love to create value, I am more motivated by building great things than by the profits... Yet, even with that motivation, if I was taxed at say 60-70%, I'd probably just retire. "Pound sand world."

Do I think this is going to be a problem? Probably not. Not everyone is irredeemable, but some people are and they make it harder for those of us who are motivated to contribute.

 

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[Issi007]

The question begs...

How can any culture survive as the younger generations, more and more, refuse to work? Refuse to labor? When they view "goals" as sitting around all day watching Tiktok videos and fingerpainting?

Pardon the VOX link, but if this is the majority thought-line in the younger generations, America will be officially dead faster than I thought.

Gen Z does not dream of labor

On TikTok and online, the youngest workers are rejecting work as we know it. How will that play out IRL?

www.vox.com

Question is, is this mindset really a fringe minority, or a majority opinion? If so, once again, giving a broader voice to a radical fringe gives the illusion that an entire generation might think like this, giving it acceptability. The younger millennials and gen-z'ers in my life have NOT embraced anti-labor, or anti-work, and actually are pretty goal oriented.

In my opinion, it is simply an old vicious cycle going on :
'Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times'
The real question might be on how to control and trick the cycle to always obtain strong men ?

 

[Charnell]

As @Antifragile said, it's a very fringe group that gets the most attention. Equating that group to a whole generation is like saying every conservative is a weirdo MAGA loser and every progressive is an Antifa commy F*ck. Most people are just regular folks.

Let's also take into consideration the age of that fringe group. Their job options are laborious or non-career jobs or entry-level careers. That part sucks. And what's the end goal? More of the same, except now pay raises are closer (but still not beating) inflation.

A possible solution would be to start transitioning more businesses into results-oriented work environments and treat most jobs like sales roles where outputs = commissions or variable pay structures. Right now if your job is to make 100 widgets a week and you get better and make 120, you get paid the same. If you produce 100 in 3 days as opposed to 5, you don't get 2 extra days off, you get a higher widget quota. Penalized for efficiency.

That allows them to "seize the means of production" or whatever. There's the motivation to produce. It's not that people don't want to work, it's that they don't want to work for dickheads.

I'm guessing I'll catch some hate for this, but that article is why I wish UBI was possible. If you don't want to contribute, cool. Stay out of the F*cking way. Here's a bag of rice and a cot. Make room for the people who do want to work. I want my double cheeseburger to look like the menu.

 

[RussRussman18]

There's a lot of moralizing and emotionality around this issue, but the long and the short of it is that people in the west can have a "lower class but comfortable" lifestyle with almost no effort, whereas getting a good upper class lifestyle, with a high income, a good wife, ability to raise kids properly, etc., is exponentially more difficult than the alternative.

Although it isn't just a financial issue. Family is the primary driving force for men. Knock the foundations out, and the rest of the house comes tumbling down. Most men my age don't know any women that they would want to marry, for reasons that have been discussed at length elsewhere on the forum.

 

[AnNvr]

"The fish stinks from the head down".

It might be an unpopular opinion, but metrics are metrics.