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Envision

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Why not take the profit at $280k or higher as they are selling like hotcakes, I would go for $300K and see if it sells in a week instead of a couple of days and reinvest in more doors. The bank will give you way more money now you have a bigger down on your next buy I am sure and if you've been living rent free I am sure you have stacked a bit of cash. This is how Grant Cardone did it. I suggest taking a look at his philosophy on this. He states it pretty clearly on Youtube and it has gotten him to the $500 million level. BTW he has a private real estate fund that you can invest in (if you are accredited) which if I was I would do instead of dealing with the real estate and no I am not affiliated with the guy, invested in Grant or work with him in any way. I just love his story and how he has amassed his fastlane success. It sounds like you are set up in similar way he was in his early days. My bottom line is take the money out and re-invest it HARD. Make that money sweat for you. More doors pay down more down more real estate. All the best.


I have no doubt that Grant Cardone is a great business man and investor. But I have never once seen him legitimately teach someone about investing in real estate, his strategies, analysis, target markets... nothing its all hype along with saying he owns alot of real estate.

I think the way his business works is that he has partners that do the real estate and he is the money guy who happens to own various other sales based businesses that can afford him a large enough income to invest with his partners to own real estate. Im sure he'd like to say he owns 300-500MM in real estate but the truth probably is that he owns that with partners and is syndicating assets which dilutes what he actually owns and possibly does.

just my 2c on him..
 
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Lionhearted

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I have no doubt that Grant Cardone is a great business man and investor. But I have never once seen him legitimately teach someone about investing in real estate, his strategies, analysis, target markets... nothing its all hype along with saying he owns alot of real estate.

I think the way his business works is that he has partners that do the real estate and he is the money guy who happens to own various other sales based businesses that can afford him a large enough income to invest with his partners to own real estate. Im sure he'd like to say he owns 300-500MM in real estate but the truth probably is that he owns that with partners and is syndicating assets which dilutes what he actually owns and possibly does.

just my 2c on him..
I have learned much from Grant about sales and real estate just watching what he teaches on youtube. He teaches many of his strategies, analysis and target markets for real estate on his Youtube videos. BTW he is a master marketer and I understand that but I would not (personally) call what he sells hype. BTW the strategies he states on his weekly real estate show on Youtube are amazing (to me anyway). Let me give you an example. He buys a property for lets say $10,000,000. The bank loans him $8,000,000. So he puts in $2,000,000 to buy the property. He invests a $1,000,000 to "fix it up". So now he is in for $3,000,000 out of pocket. Then he raises the rents to an appropriate level (He has fixed the roof, painted the place and generally modernized all the apartments). Once he has done all of this he holds it for a year or two at which point the property value has gone up considerably. Let's say it's gone up to $15,000,000 in value now because rents are up, occupancy is good because it's a good property now and the market has risen as well. He has also been paying the place down for a couple of years now too. You would think the play would be to sell the place, rinse and repeat, right? NO. He goes to the bank refinances the place for $15,000,000 pays off the outstanding original loan (keeps the building and all the paying tenants) and invests the extra $5,000,000 in his NEXT deal! WOW! I didn't even know that was possible. I learned that on one "golden nugget" from his Youtube videos. Now I may be rookie compared to that guy in real estate but that ONE "golden nugget" right there was worth every minute of "hype" I ever had to listen to from the man. BTW you could also do the same with your property. Again I don't work with Grant and I am not affiliated with the man in any way, but I give credit where credit is due. I believe in learning from the people who have made it like MJ and Grant Cardone as well as many others. Like I said one "golden nugget" is worth a lot and if they are giving them away for next to nothing I have nothing but respect for that. I can tell you don't like the guy and I am not trying to convert you. I get it, I am not particularly fond of Tai Lopez either but again I will not put down anyone who has made it legitimately (honestly) and I do believe even Tai has something of value to offer." Thanks. All the best.
 
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JustAskBenWhy

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It's a risk/reward thing. If you think the property will continue to appreciate, then there is a reason to perhaps keep it. If it's maxed out then what would be the point...?

The IRR would suggest selling, I am sure. Why? Because the rate of appreciation is most certainly not going to be as high as it was in the last 2 years. and if not, the time value of money will get you. So, the IRR would more than likely suggest selling..

You will, however, need to move the money and replace the CF, which adds another dimension. But, I suspect selling is the right thing to do :)
 

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It's a risk/reward thing. If you think the property will continue to appreciate, then there is a reason to perhaps keep it. If it's maxed out then what would be the point...?

The IRR would suggest selling, I am sure. Why? Because the rate of appreciation is most certainly not going to be as high as it was in the last 2 years. and if not, the time value of money will get you. So, the IRR would more than likely suggest selling..

You will, however, need to move the money and replace the CF, which adds another dimension. But, I suspect selling is the right thing to do :)
Why not refinance the place for $300K, keep the place and revenue it brings in, take the difference and invest that? Hmmmm
 
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jon.a

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100% refi?

I have learned much from Grant about sales and real estate just watching what he teaches on youtube. He teaches many of his strategies, analysis and target markets for real estate on his Youtube videos. BTW he is a master marketer and I understand that but I would not (personally) call what he sells hype. BTW the strategies he states on his weekly real estate show on Youtube are amazing (to me anyway). Let me give you an example. He buys a property for lets say $10,000,000. The bank loans him $8,000,000. So he puts in $2,000,000 to buy the property. He invests a $1,000,000 to "fix it up". So now he is in for $3,000,000 out of pocket. Then he raises the rents to an appropriate level (He has fixed the roof, painted the place and generally modernized all the apartments). Once he has done all of this he holds it for a year or two at which point the property value has gone up considerably. Let's say it's gone up to $15,000,000 in value now because rents are up, occupancy is good because it's a good property now and the market has risen as well. He has also been paying the place down for a couple of years now too. You would think the play would be to sell the place, rinse and repeat, right? NO. He goes to the bank refinances the place for $15,000,000 pays off the outstanding original loan (keeps the building and all the paying tenants) and invests the extra $5,000,000 in his NEXT deal! WOW! I didn't even know that was possible. I learned that on one "golden nugget" from his Youtube videos. Now I may be rookie compared to that guy in real estate but that ONE "golden nugget" right there was worth every minute of "hype" I ever had to listen to from the man. BTW you could also do the same with your property. Again I don't work with Grant and I am not affiliated with the man in any way, but I give credit where credit is due. I believe in learning from the people who have made it like MJ and Grant Cardone as well as many others. Like I said one "golden nugget" is worth a lot and if they are giving them away for next to nothing I have nothing but respect for that. I can tell you don't like the guy and I am not trying to convert you. I get it, I am not particularly fond of Tai Lopez either but again I will not put down anyone who has made it legitimately (honestly) and I do believe even Tai has something of value to offer." Thanks. All the best.
 

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MJ DeMarco

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JustAskBenWhy

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Why not refinance the place for $300K, keep the place and revenue it brings in, take the difference and invest that? Hmmmm
Because of CapEx. Again, if you anticipate continued price inflation then yes, refi and CF. But, if there won't be any more value created, then over time, as you are putting money into the property by way of CapEx you will be diminishing IRR. Makes sense?
 

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It's a risk/reward thing. If you think the property will continue to appreciate, then there is a reason to perhaps keep it. If it's maxed out then what would be the point...?

The IRR would suggest selling, I am sure. Why? Because the rate of appreciation is most certainly not going to be as high as it was in the last 2 years. and if not, the time value of money will get you. So, the IRR would more than likely suggest selling..

You will, however, need to move the money and replace the CF, which adds another dimension. But, I suspect selling is the right thing to do :)

I've lived in it for 2 years so i think one of the other big reasons is I wouldnt have to pay capital gains tax on quite a bit of the sales price. I think the taxed amount would come to something like 50k which would be like 12ish total. I dont know if I can still get those sales tax benefits if I hold it and rent it for another year or two?

I agree, I dont think the appreciation is going to continue and thats why its so appealing to me but I was wondering what you would do if you were me at my age with my goal with the money i'd walk away with if I got my sales price? I did also already buy another one so I dont think ill be able to repeat another fha loan for another year.
 

Envision

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I have learned much from Grant about sales and real estate just watching what he teaches on youtube. He teaches many of his strategies, analysis and target markets for real estate on his Youtube videos. BTW he is a master marketer and I understand that but I would not (personally) call what he sells hype. BTW the strategies he states on his weekly real estate show on Youtube are amazing (to me anyway). Let me give you an example. He buys a property for lets say $10,000,000. The bank loans him $8,000,000. So he puts in $2,000,000 to buy the property. He invests a $1,000,000 to "fix it up". So now he is in for $3,000,000 out of pocket. Then he raises the rents to an appropriate level (He has fixed the roof, painted the place and generally modernized all the apartments). Once he has done all of this he holds it for a year or two at which point the property value has gone up considerably. Let's say it's gone up to $15,000,000 in value now because rents are up, occupancy is good because it's a good property now and the market has risen as well. He has also been paying the place down for a couple of years now too. You would think the play would be to sell the place, rinse and repeat, right? NO. He goes to the bank refinances the place for $15,000,000 pays off the outstanding original loan (keeps the building and all the paying tenants) and invests the extra $5,000,000 in his NEXT deal! WOW! I didn't even know that was possible. I learned that on one "golden nugget" from his Youtube videos. Now I may be rookie compared to that guy in real estate but that ONE "golden nugget" right there was worth every minute of "hype" I ever had to listen to from the man. BTW you could also do the same with your property. Again I don't work with Grant and I am not affiliated with the man in any way, but I give credit where credit is due. I believe in learning from the people who have made it like MJ and Grant Cardone as well as many others. Like I said one "golden nugget" is worth a lot and if they are giving them away for next to nothing I have nothing but respect for that. I can tell you don't like the guy and I am not trying to convert you. I get it, I am not particularly fond of Tai Lopez either but again I will not put down anyone who has made it legitimately (honestly) and I do believe even Tai has something of value to offer." Thanks. All the best.

I work for a holdings company and this is what we do with our facilities. I think this model works really well when you are running an REI business and are working with assets of magnitude. MJ talks about scale in TMF but their is another component which is magnitude pertaining to what you are selling/investing in and the cost associated.

It doesnt make sense for me to do that with an asset that will produce $500/mo in cash flow and has a possibilty for a 50% vacancy and other costs that will spring up. That changes drastically when you're buying 500 unit apartment complexes and your bank will provide unsecured loans/lines based on your business model.
 
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biophase

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Why not refinance the place for $300K, keep the place and revenue it brings in, take the difference and invest that? Hmmmm

You know that you have to make payments on the $300k right?

So he refi's for $300k. There goes all his cashflow from this property and you want him to take that $300k and put it down on another home and get another mortgage? If you follow this plan, I bet it will come crashing down at some point.

This is how people end up with $5,000,000 in REI and $200,000 in equity. Then the market drops 10% and they are negative $300,000, can't pay the bills and get all their properties foreclosed on.
 

biophase

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I think @biophase is right though. The market cant continue to do this and id be kicking myself if the property values went back to their normal range and i didnt sell. I need to capture all the income on the sale, tax free, and use the money wisely to continue growing out an empire.

BTW, I just want to mention this based on past experience during the REI boom.

Homes I've Sold
House 1 - paid $235k in 2005, sold $385k in 2007. To this day, my house is still the highest comp. in the neighborhood. The house today is worth $299k. I got really lucky with a buyer here that had a 100% loan and just had to have the house. He got foreclosed on in less than a year.
Condo 1 & 2 - paid $73k each in 2004, sold both at $175k each in 2007 to an LA investor. Lowest value $70k. Worth today $130k. The investor let these go 2 years later.

Home that got foreclosed
House 2 - Paid $373k in 2006, was worth $465k when complete, but had to hold for 1 year due to new construction clause (hindsight, I should have sold even with this clause over my head). Value dropped to $250k. I let it go. Worth today $340k

Homes I've Held
Condo 3 & 4 - paid $142k each in 2005, value at peak $200k in 2008, lowest value $170k, value today $185k.
Condo 5 - paid $212k in 2005, value at peak $285k, lowest value $200k, value today $230k
Condo 6 - paid $122k in 2015, value today $140k

In hindsight, I obviously should have sold House 2. I've never thought about selling condos 3, 4 and 5 as they cashflow well and are in stable areas.
 

Lionhearted

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BTW, I just want to mention this based on past experience during the REI boom.

Homes I've Sold
House 1 - paid $235k in 2005, sold $385k in 2007. To this day, my house is still the highest comp. in the neighborhood. The house today is worth $299k. I got really lucky with a buyer here that had a 100% loan and just had to have the house. He got foreclosed on in less than a year.
Condo 1 & 2 - paid $73k each in 2004, sold both at $175k each in 2007 to an LA investor. Lowest value $70k. Worth today $130k. The investor let these go 2 years later.

Home that got foreclosed
House 2 - Paid $373k in 2006, was worth $465k when complete, but had to hold for 1 year due to new construction clause (hindsight, I should have sold even with this clause over my head). Value dropped to $250k. I let it go. Worth today $340k

Homes I've Held
Condo 3 & 4 - paid $142k each in 2005, value at peak $200k in 2008, lowest value $170k, value today $185k.
Condo 5 - paid $212k in 2005, value at peak $285k, lowest value $200k, value today $230k
Condo 6 - paid $122k in 2015, value today $140k

In hindsight, I obviously should have sold House 2. I've never thought about selling condos 3, 4 and 5 as they cashflow well and are in stable areas.
Hindsight is 20/20 foresight different story but obviously you are learning. I am learning to ask what is the cost of the fine or of breaking the contract instead of being intimidated by it. All the best.
 
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MiguelHammond10

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To be honest if i were in your shoes i would sell it and make more profits to make more Business.
 

21elnegocio

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Whats up!

I've spoken at the summit on house hacking where I bought a duplex when I was 20 and created the opportunity to live for free. For context to this question, my goal is to build a holdings company that invest primarily in multi-family real estate and create my ideal life from that.

Now im kind of at a cross roads. I bought that duplex when I was 20 (2 years ago) for $157,000 (currently owe ~145k). As of today there are duplexes that are the same or worse than mine in my market being sold for $260-280k and they're going in less than a couple of days (absolute insanity). Prior to finding my newest property i never considered selling because I needed the place to live. But now after seeing these prices come up and I now have a new place the live the opportunity to sell the property has presented itself.

I've lived in the property for 2 years, I could sell the property for ~280k and walk away from the deal with $100-120k in my bank after everything and I wouldnt have to pay capital gains taxes because ive lived in it.

There are pros and cons and im coming to you guys to help me think this out.

Pros:
-walk away with 20 years worth of rent
-i wouldnt have to fix the roof, paint the house, and other large expenses that are coming up in the next 1-5 years.
-Have cash on hand for when the market turns

Cons:
-It's a great asset. It's being paid down, will make $500/mo net once I move out and I would lose that.
-If I sold it I wouldnt be able to leverage it in the future. (Keep in mind I could sell it for more than what a bank would loan against it)
-Im emotionally attached haha

My thought is I can do alot with 100k and Im not in a rush to buy more real estate so I could wait for the market to cool off and possibly invest in 2-3 duplexes or a couple of 4plexs or a larger deal... I could even do some private lending with those funds as well.

Side note: I dont need to live off the money, and my ecomm business does not need it either.

Would love to hear what your thoughts are!
Thanks,


Awesome work man, that is the way to do it lol. I bought a townhouse cash, and a triplex about 2.5 years ago and now my townhouse is worth twice the amount and my triplex is worth almost twice the amount as well. I am in the process of 1031 exchanging these properties, but I am waiting on an owner that owns 8 units to sell me his units. Again those 8 units have equity, but he first needs to get some things straighten out. I will continue 1031 exchanging until one day I own 1000+ units and can move where ever I want.


I also want to get into eCommerce but it has been hard to learn the game, I guess I am not learning from the right sources.
 
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21elnegocio

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BTW, I also have properties in Utah that I purchased in 2005. The SLC market is doing pretty well right now. I've been through the refi, buy another, rent out, cycle. It's all fine and dandy until you run out of tenants and the market crashes.

I think you should be careful with statements like "Anyone who holds properties that long (10 years) will always make money". It's thoughts like this that will get you in trouble. I think you always need to be cautiously optimistic in all investments.

I think the question you should ask yourself is, if market rents drop 25% and 25% of my properties go unrented for 6 months, can I survive? How many properties could I lose?

I am in a different position now than I was 10 years ago. I like to pay all cash and just cashflow like crazy. I know that if I had 100% vacancy for 12 months, or if all my AC units go out in the same month, I can handle it. That equity is not at risk except for real estate values going up and down.

I'm just warning you that it can all go south really fast, and that once it happens you can't really get out. Nobody is buying and nobody is lending.


Great point @biophase
 

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I have to say in your shoes at $500/mo Cash Flow... you might want to sell. If the situation were more cash positive... or you were closer to payoff I would say hold it. But right now, sell and I'd stick the profit into your business (not more RE)

I still have the 3-flat I purchased in the "Stop Paying Rent: Live for Free" thread I started on this forum back in 2014. It just appraised for $500,000 in July and I owe $184,000. That means if I sell right now I have roughly $316,000 in cash, free and clear (I have my broker license as does my partner... so no fees).

Regular people might think I'm crazy, but I am holding. It nets me $2,000+ per month ($24,000 a year) with no work. The cash flow is too good and my payoff amount is not far off. I could pay it off now and have $43,000 per year forever (not even factoring in rental increases)... but I won't do that because I can put $184K to much better use than a yield play on real estate at this time.

If you had asked me when I purchased, I said I was going to sell in 2-3 years. That changed when I realized that stacking life cash flows (in any form) is more fun. All this said... I am not buying more real estate right now. My ecommerce business and my B&M business bring far better returns, so that is where my time and money get invested. As MJ and SteveO have said... RE market is overpriced relative to value. I agree with MJ that no huge correction is coming, but a sluggish return period is not far off on the horizon. Always invest in highly cash flow positive assets (balance your leverage) and you won't ever have to worry about the equity ;) (it's just the cherry on top).
 
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Envision

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I have to say in your shoes at $500/mo Cash Flow... you might want to sell. If the situation were more cash positive... or you were closer to payoff I would say hold it. But right now, sell and I'd stick the profit into your business (not more RE)

I still have the 3-flat I purchased in the "Stop Paying Rent: Live for Free" thread I started on this forum back in 2014. It just appraised for $500,000 in July and I owe $184,000. That means if I sell right now I have roughly $316,000 in cash, free and clear (I have my broker license as does my partner... so no fees).

Regular people might think I'm crazy, but I am holding. It nets me $2,000+ per month ($24,000 a year) with no work. The cash flow is too good and my payoff amount is not far off. I could pay it off now and have $43,000 per year forever (not even factoring in rental increases)... but I won't do that because I can put $184K to much better use than a yield play on real estate at this time.

If you had asked me when I purchased, I said I was going to sell in 2-3 years. That changed when I realized that stacking life cash flows (in any form) is more fun. All this said... I am not buying more real estate right now. My ecommerce business and my B&M business bring far better returns, so that is where my time and money get invested. As MJ and SteveO have said... RE market is overpriced relative to value. I agree with MJ that no huge correction is coming, but a sluggish return period is not far off on the horizon. Always invest in highly cash flow positive assets (balance your leverage) and you won't ever have to worry about the equity ;) (it's just the cherry on top).

Hey man,

Thanks for responding to the thread so I wasnt able to get the 270k price on it and i was down to 250 when i pulled it off market (figured id try again at the start of next summer). Just got my side I was living in rented out for $1000/mo so I am making $1775/mo with a mortgage of $918/mo so I guess with expenses factored in excluding large repairs Im looking at cash flow of $700/mo. Mind you I need to budget for roof, exterior paint, and outside AC unit which is part of the game.

What are your thoughts on this and what would you do knowing that info?

My new property is a 270k 3/2 duplex downtown in my city and the mortgage on it is $1700 and I bring in $2030/mo so Im looking forward to refinancing this and getting that payment even lower but Im now hesitating to sell my first one because im now netting 1k/mo on these two properties while living free so technically netting $1500/2k on my saved living expenses.
 
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21elnegocio

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BTW, I also have properties in Utah that I purchased in 2005. The SLC market is doing pretty well right now. I've been through the refi, buy another, rent out, cycle. It's all fine and dandy until you run out of tenants and the market crashes.

I think you should be careful with statements like "Anyone who holds properties that long (10 years) will always make money". It's thoughts like this that will get you in trouble. I think you always need to be cautiously optimistic in all investments.

I think the question you should ask yourself is, if market rents drop 25% and 25% of my properties go unrented for 6 months, can I survive? How many properties could I lose?

I am in a different position now than I was 10 years ago. I like to pay all cash and just cashflow like crazy. I know that if I had 100% vacancy for 12 months, or if all my AC units go out in the same month, I can handle it. That equity is not at risk except for real estate values going up and down.

I'm just warning you that it can all go south really fast, and that once it happens you can't really get out. Nobody is buying and nobody is lending.


Great point @biophase
I have to say in your shoes at $500/mo Cash Flow... you might want to sell. If the situation were more cash positive... or you were closer to payoff I would say hold it. But right now, sell and I'd stick the profit into your business (not more RE)

I still have the 3-flat I purchased in the "Stop Paying Rent: Live for Free" thread I started on this forum back in 2014. It just appraised for $500,000 in July and I owe $184,000. That means if I sell right now I have roughly $316,000 in cash, free and clear (I have my broker license as does my partner... so no fees).

Regular people might think I'm crazy, but I am holding. It nets me $2,000+ per month ($24,000 a year) with no work. The cash flow is too good and my payoff amount is not far off. I could pay it off now and have $43,000 per year forever (not even factoring in rental increases)... but I won't do that because I can put $184K to much better use than a yield play on real estate at this time.

If you had asked me when I purchased, I said I was going to sell in 2-3 years. That changed when I realized that stacking life cash flows (in any form) is more fun. All this said... I am not buying more real estate right now. My ecommerce business and my B&M business bring far better returns, so that is where my time and money get invested. As MJ and SteveO have said... RE market is overpriced relative to value. I agree with MJ that no huge correction is coming, but a sluggish return period is not far off on the horizon. Always invest in highly cash flow positive assets (balance your leverage) and you won't ever have to worry about the equity ;) (it's just the cherry on top).

Very well said @G_Alexander I still remember that first deal you purchased. I am the same, I would only buy if it is something that yields me high cash return. I found 8 units that do, I would buy with equity but owner keeps giving e the run around, I have been following up with them for about 2.5 years great price and all occupied. I would love to learn ecommerce man but tell you the truth I have no idea where to start. I was in it back when hookah pens and iphone cases would get you a nice return on ebay but got suspended from ebay due to late shipping.
 

White8

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I'm a big fan of the long term hold. Leverage what you have and buy the next. I know of a small complex built here in 1972 for $12,500 that's worth $1.3m and would sell in a few days. The one across the street was 1976 for $26,000 and would go for $1.5m
 
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WJK

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Whats up!

I've spoken at the summit on house hacking where I bought a duplex when I was 20 and created the opportunity to live for free. For context to this question, my goal is to build a holdings company that invest primarily in multi-family real estate and create my ideal life from that.

Now im kind of at a cross roads. I bought that duplex when I was 20 (2 years ago) for $157,000 (currently owe ~145k). As of today there are duplexes that are the same or worse than mine in my market being sold for $260-280k and they're going in less than a couple of days (absolute insanity). Prior to finding my newest property i never considered selling because I needed the place to live. But now after seeing these prices come up and I now have a new place the live the opportunity to sell the property has presented itself.

I've lived in the property for 2 years, I could sell the property for ~280k and walk away from the deal with $100-120k in my bank after everything and I wouldnt have to pay capital gains taxes because ive lived in it.

There are pros and cons and im coming to you guys to help me think this out.

Pros:
-walk away with 20 years worth of rent
-i wouldnt have to fix the roof, paint the house, and other large expenses that are coming up in the next 1-5 years.
-Have cash on hand for when the market turns

Cons:
-It's a great asset. It's being paid down, will make $500/mo net once I move out and I would lose that.
-If I sold it I wouldnt be able to leverage it in the future. (Keep in mind I could sell it for more than what a bank would loan against it)
-Im emotionally attached haha

My thought is I can do alot with 100k and Im not in a rush to buy more real estate so I could wait for the market to cool off and possibly invest in 2-3 duplexes or a couple of 4plexs or a larger deal... I could even do some private lending with those funds as well.

Side note: I dont need to live off the money, and my ecomm business does not need it either.

Would love to hear what your thoughts are!
Thanks,
Check with your tax person. Do you rent part of it? The rental part of it may be taxable -- 50%? Did you depreciate? That maybe recaptured income. (You should have if you rented because the IRS assumes you will if you are allowed.) You need more data before you make this decision.
As a real estate investor, I'd keep the duplex and pay it off ASAP. I'd go buy another set of small units (2-4) and move to them. I'd find a "fixer" property and do the work one unit at a time. Then I'd rent those units as I finished them. But, I have the long view of things...
 

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