Hiring/Firing Employees

[DeletedUser394]

I'm reading Atlas Shrugged and looking into Objectivism, and I've got a few questions.

I'm around 200 pages in, and Rearden and Dagny Taggart are discussing the role of employees in an enterprise, and it got me thinking.

I assume you can fire someone for not being productive, but can you fire someone because you simply don't get along/don't like the person... Or are you even able to fire someone on a whim (for absolutely no reason, just because you can).

Seeing as employees can leave at any time they please, can't you fire them whenever you want as well?

As for discrimination. I would probably not consider hiring anyone who smokes, nor would I hire anyone who is extremely overweight/obese regardless of their qualifications. I would also give preference to hiring men over women. (Reasons irrelevant, but I'd prefer working with a group of men than women (I have nothing against women, it is simply in my best interest and my preference to hire more men than women), I loathe smoking, and I want to surround myself with people who care about their physical health).

For example I'll be in charge of hiring staff for a gym that I'm co-founding next year with some partners, and it would look bad if I hired people who didn't care about their health. (obviously).

The women issue isn't that big of a deal (If two people were equally qualified and I liked them both, I'd probably choose the man, or just flip a coin), but the obesity/smoking thing is a much bigger issue.


Of course, I wouldn't have to admit these things (although I just did)... so how could anyone possibly prove it.

Ultimately, regardless of reasons, can't I just hire whoever I want to work for MY company!

If I have 6 employees, 5 men, 1 woman... all healthy/in shape and non-smokers, is that somehow illegal? And if I decide to fire them all tomorrow, who can stop me?

By the way, Atlas Shrugged and Ayn Rand's philosophy are quite thought provoking!

 

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[DeletedUser394]

I've been doing some research and it seems that you can fire someone for any reason, but I'm still not clear on the discrimination issue. If it's your company (that you built and worked extremely hard on), you should be able to do whatever you want and hire whoever you want.

 

[Lights]

Depending on the laws and such. If you're in the USA, you certainly cannot say that aloud lol.

But for me, if I were to hire a guy, he would need a nice butt. Like it needs to pop, and I like my employee-men dumber than me, but smart enough to do the job. This is easily done, through a test of some sort, but interviews are great as well. I just want to make sure I am dominant, and he will go to me for a lot of questions that could easily be thought of by himself, but I would put my hand on his shoulder, "Thomas have we not gone over this before, please I have no time for this, do you want the job?"

I certainly want some eye-candy lol. I don't want no obese, ugly, retarded-looking men working in my prestigious workplace that I built upon the raisins of the sun.

 

[DeletedUser394]

But again, as you say it's YOUR company.. Just as I'd like to be able to hire whoever I want to hire in MY company.

An employee has 100 percent choice over where to work, so we should have 100 percent choice on who we would want to hire, regardless of our potentially vain reasons (cute butt or otherwise lol).

 

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[Lights]

I'm actually joking about the butt and the appearance, but I need someone best for the job. It depends on the job itself lol. I totally believe employers should have 100 percent power over who works for their business, because it's about brand image. But there's laws in the USA, and that's all I know about this. I haven't looked into this much either.

Employees do have 100% power, my first boss I ever had said this to me, "You are lucky you even work here" when I was asking for a promotion. Needless to say, I quit when she was going to demote me after I was promoted from the other manager (who loved me, but the boss fired her right after she promoted me; hired a manlet), and I told her, "You are lucky you ever met me" on the phone when I asked for my "saved" up holiday pay. She did not even have the courage to tell me, so she told the manlet manager that I was going to be demoted. I quit, since if I do not enjoy the job then there's no point. I have all powers in my jobs. I'm not desperate for money. I never need a credit card. I am just doing the job for life experience.

He said, "Don't you need the money". And I responded, "I do not need the money." I walked out, and the guy I worked with had a fit about the boss. He was like, "bit-- cannot do this! All the good ones go If you need a reference you can use me". He was the path of the slowlane though, and I don't need his help. But he serves as a good memory.

This experience helped me in some ways though, since now I have full control of my life. I don't depend on an employer's coins to help me (she was an employee to the company, and she was a workaholic... she wasn't that successful, probably making 40 k at the age of 50-something) When I was 17, I thought, "Oh great I have a job... I am going to work all the time"

That's the dumbest logic I ever had, if I do not need to work, then I won't. My self-goals come first before my jobs. If I could do it over again, I would had done better in high school, and not focus so much on my job. I was truly putting in 35-40 some hrs at this time period. High school on top of that.

I would had put more time in my self-development as a being probably, and really get my life the way I wanted too. But it took me until I was 19 years old to really get my life in my control. I have beauty, youth, intelligence (as creative as it is), I have a house, I have no debt, I have savings, I have it made, but it's because I built this empire of mine. I am 19 now, but I am close to 20 years old.

When I lay my head to sleep each night, I have no stress. I have my life put together because I am a force to be reckon with. My way is so clear.

 

[Ska2free]

If you sign a contract with your employee, you must have 'cause' to fire them...basically both sides have to obey the contract.

If there's no contract, employees have been hired 'at will' and can be fired without cause.

Never ever say what you said out loud, or in email or print. Research the questions you are or are not allowed to ask in an interview. Don't make yourself an easy target for a lawsuit...even if you're right (and from your words above, legally you are not in the right), it's likely to be a drain on your finances, energy, and faith in humanity.

 

[DeletedUser394]

I thought about it over night, and the only actual issue is the smoking. I would not want to potentially harm my health, or the health of my other employees.. I also do not support or condone smoking, and neither would my organization.

For an mma gym specifically, I need to hire people who care about their health and are passionate about fighting/martial arts.. so that naturally eliminates smokers, and the obese.

I see job postings all the time requesting 'Woman' or 'non smoker' or 'man' or 'young man/woman' (which I'm assuming would be discrimination against the elderly.

Race/gender doesn't concern me, because they are not choices and they really don't matter provided the candidate can do what they have to do. But smoking is a choice, and to a lesser but still valid extent, taking care of your body and its well being is a choice..

 

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[jbuckingham]

Frankly, there is no such thing as "at will" in the USA anymore. You create a contract that allows you to terminate the agreement for "Cause" (defined reasons) and include a "not for cause" clause or you're screwed on wrongful termination.

 

[77startup]

In the USA once you create a company officially you officially give up the right to do whatever you want. In general if you can't legally discriminate for xyz and you do you are opening yourself up to be sued if anyone is offended enough.

For example one of my black buddies had the best open rate of new accounts at his bank for the last 8 months in a row. He was there more then anyone else and getting nice bonus checks every 3 months. One day they fired him because "they felt that his talent was being wasted and he would be better in another bank". The bank was pretty much entirely Polish Americans including bankers, tellers, and managers. So my buddy ended up suing them and winning. It was obvious to the courts that discrimination existed in his particular case.

 

[Ska2free]

I thought about it over night, and the only actual issue is the smoking. I would not want to potentially harm my health, or the health of my other employees.. I also do not support or condone smoking, and neither would my organization.

For an mma gym specifically, I need to hire people who care about their health and are passionate about fighting/martial arts.. so that naturally eliminates smokers, and the obese.

I see job postings all the time requesting 'Woman' or 'non smoker' or 'man' or 'young man/woman' (which I'm assuming would be discrimination against the elderly.

Race/gender doesn't concern me, because they are not choices and they really don't matter provided the candidate can do what they have to do. But smoking is a choice, and to a lesser but still valid extent, taking care of your body and its well being is a choice..

First off, I'm not a lawyer, so this info is just to the best of my knowledge and may not be accurate in every state or outside the US. That said,

You would have every right to disallow smoking at your gym / place of business. You could probably even disallow the consumption of fast food or other things you felt were incongruent with your organization. You just can't ask someone if they smoke outside of their working hours and then base your hiring decision on that. I think you could probably ask legitimate questions about their view on holistic health and wellness, and decide whether they fit your desires based on that.

In regards to the obesity question, again, you legally can't decide not to hire someone based on their weight. But you can (and should) decide whether to hire someone based on whether they can perform the duties of the job. If those duties include, for example, teaching athletic classes for hours potentially back to back...then you've legally screened undesirable candidates.

As far as the postings you mentioned, I think it's legal for an individual to request personal characteristics like age, gender, etc for care taking or roommate type engagements, but as 77startup said, corporations have to obey different rules.

It is a pain in the a$$, but I try to remember that there are very good historical reasons for why we have anti-discrimination laws.

 

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[lilc800]

the way I look at it you can pick who you want to represent you company and do it the right way... Honestly I wouldn't hire a very big person if it was a fitness place since 1. they most likely don't know anything about it and 2. they don't represent it the way I would like..

So you can choose but it can't be a race thing or saying I am only doing cause your fat..

For example if a cop isn't fine to pass the the course they won't get picked until they do or they will give up..

 

[DeletedUser2]

Call an HR manager. about 30 min on the phone with one of them will be very enlightening.

if you ask nicely they will explain alot for free.

other wise google this. there are alot of rules out there. a couple of hours of quick study can save you TONS of grief.

 

[911Carrera]

In the USA once you create a company officially you officially give up the right to do whatever you want. In general if you can't legally discriminate for xyz and you do you are opening yourself up to be sued if anyone is offended enough.

For example one of my black buddies had the best open rate of new accounts at his bank for the last 8 months in a row. He was there more then anyone else and getting nice bonus checks every 3 months. One day they fired him because "they felt that his talent was being wasted and he would be better in another bank". The bank was pretty much entirely Polish Americans including bankers, tellers, and managers. So my buddy ended up suing them and winning. It was obvious to the courts that discrimination existed in his particular case.

They deserved to be sued. What a bunch of punks. I hoped he won some good money bc that was just wrong.

Back to topic. You can't fire an employee who's doing a good job because you don't like him. You have the right to do so, but that doesn't mean they can't sue you and win. If the court finds that you discriminated in a anyway, skin color, body composition, age, nationality, you'll get your a$$ handed to you .

 

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[77startup]

^

He won 10k+ took about a year and the bank didn't survive post 2008 chaos... guess they didn't open enough accounts.

 

[andviv]

Well, in the US there are laws about that. There are some general rules at the Federal level (all the states need to meet) but the states have certain independence in how to apply some laws.

For example, some states are called "business-friendly" or "employer-friendly" and at-will terminations are OK. Others are more "pro-employee" and the business owners have a little more restrictions on what they can and cannot do.

Again, in the US, the Department of Labor has information about what is legal or not. Compliance Assistance By Topic - Termination Issues

I understand your question being more philosophical than practical or about laws and regulations. I tend to agree with you, owners should have certain freedom in that perspective but, like everything, there are always abusive situations in one way or another.