Hello from Denver - self publishing success

[Rawr]

What would happen if someone published an adventure story, and then added sex scenes to it and published it under erotica?


I feel like adding some sex scenes to turn it erotica would not mash well with the narrative, but I do want it to have a better chance of selling.

 

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[ChickenHawk]

What would happen if someone published an adventure story, and then added sex scenes to it and published it under erotica? I feel like adding some sex scenes to turn it erotica would not mash well with the narrative, but I do want it to have a better chance of selling.

Just my opinion as a reader...If you're talking about publishing the novel both ways -- first without erotica, and later with erotica -- I'm not sure I'd do it, unless you were really straight-forward that they're basically the same story. ("Now with extra spice...") I see this sometimes, where an author will change something relatively minor about their book, and then publish it under a different title, and the readers get angry.

Also, is the adventure story geared toward men or women? If it's geared toward women, I'd say that adding erotica might boost its sales. If it's geared toward men, I'm not so sure. Is it sexist to suggest that women like to read about erotic content, while men like to look at pictures of, ahem, erotic content? And is this true? It's what I've read, but who knows...

 

[Rawr]

It is basically Tucker Max style book, it has sex in it, but the story and the narrative is key, the underlying message is not romance but adventure and life. His books are a 60/40 m/f split.

Problem for me is this - I think even if i switch this to include more sex scenes, the erotica CUSTOMER might not accept it as it is not written that way.

 

[Dirk Pitt]

Here are some websites about writing that I have found helpful. I'm not shilling for any if these. Just saying that I found some value in each of them. Your mileage may vary...

This first is a discussion board for writers. My impression is that this is good for peer support. Lots of good advice on building writing skills. It has an entire section for authors to submit their works for peer feedback. There is a lot of motivational support as well. Seems to especially good for aspiring authors.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/index.php


This site outlines a systematic method of writing. The site suggests buying software that walks you through the process. i didn't buy it. I'm just following the outline listed on the website.

http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/articles/snowflake-method/


This last link is to list of other links about writing. Sort of a writer's toolbox:

http://www.jrvogt.com/writerresources.htm

 

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[Jonleehacker]

I've been using Literature and Latte - Scrivener Writing Software | Mac OS X | Windows as an outlining and writing tool and it has helped a lot, I'm much more organized and efficient.

The best thing is that the outline is tied to the writing, so you can adjust the outline as you go, which is how it should be. In the past I just abandon the outline at a certain point, which often leads to confusion.

 

[Held for Ransom]

What are everyone's thoughts on this, especially you, Held For Ransom?

Honestly, I never read stuff like this but pretty much I agree with Rawr's take on it...

I'll take the advice of people who made money in this - and I'll write WHAT SELLS first. Later, what I think is fun to write for myself.

The only exception is I really don't ever see myself doing anything writing-related "for fun".

This is not directed at Rawr or Pinnacle but I see writers say stuff like that alot. You know, write what they "want" to write. I mean, I guess that's okay and everything but their expectations need to match their reality.

VERY VERY VERY FEW books that follow this path will ever sell at all and honestly, this whole notion is baffling to me. These authors are "doing what they love" in the context of writing and that is why they suck at making money and they lash out in jealousy at people who do.

Seriously.

You never see this kind of nonsense in any other business but writing.

Consider these examples...

• When is the last time Microsoft produced a new O/S "for fun"?
• When is the last time McDonalds came up with a new burger "for fun"?
• When is the last time Disney released a new movie "for fun"?

I think you get my point.

Writing novels is a business. Authors are in the business of entertainment. We write stories that people read for money. It is seriously hilarious to me that so many authors either don't understand this basic premise or the *acceptance* of it is somehow beneath them.

Get over yourself self righteous author dude. If you want a classic example of the kind of person I am talking about, check out that link. These clowns are all like this guy - bitter, self hating losers who somehow think that they are better than everyone else and that people who read popular books are idiots.

After reading it, I'm sure you can see why I could care less what tools like that think since their books don't sell for jack squat.

For that matter, I really don't care what anybody says about what works or doesn't. The market basically tells me everything I need to know. I get the sense from some postings in the thread as well as PMs I get that people want the part about "what to write" to be harder somehow.

It really isn't.

I 100% swear on my life that I look at what sells and come up with my own version of it.

That's it. I promise that's all I do and I'm barely a lowly mid lister!!! In other words, anyone here can probably do as well if not much better but only if you change your perception about what it is you are doing.

If you want to do well understand that you are writing for money which means that you will probably have to write things people actually want to read (i.e., follow trends).

Yes, I am a HACK that chases popular trends but I'm not alone. Many of the richest authors in the world do the same thing...

• 50 Shades of Grey started out as Twilight fan fiction. Even though the author did not initially produce it based on chasing a trend, Twilight was a massive success and had a huge built in demand.
• Here on this forum, I posted a story about Jasinda Wilder who basically took the same approach of following trends and now she and her husband pull in nearly six figures PER MONTH.

Lastly from my POV, the scenario he lays out would *never happen* with people that take the same type of approach I do.

He's got it backwards. You don't come to the table with your novel in mind and try to retrofit it to "What's Hot". You start with with the trend itself and produce your work based on that.

However, at least he's being honest about not following trends himself!

His novel, which is 359 Kindle pages long and was published on 4/9/13, now has a Sales Rank approaching 300,000 (at the time of this post). So clearly he is following his own advice and happily spending probably 100s of hours of his life writing things that no one wants to read.

Good job bro.

Really, the only way to figure out if what he says is true or not is to do for yourself. From experience, I can tell you that thinking like that is what makes it easier for guys like me to make money.

What would happen if someone published an adventure story, and then added sex scenes to it and published it under erotica?

Problem for me is this - I think even if i switch this to include more sex scenes, the erotica CUSTOMER might not accept it as it is not written that way.

With Erotica, the sex typically (though not always) takes precedence. If it were me, I would look around and see if there were already any titles selling along the lines of what you want to create. If there are and they are selling well enough for you, then it might be worth considering.

I've been using Literature and Latte - Scrivener Writing Software | Mac OS X | Windows as an outlining and writing tool and it has helped a lot, I'm much more organized and efficient.

That's funny because I found it to have exactly the opposite effect on me!

Even so, I know that there's TONS of people that swear by it. Plus they have a really active user community so it definitely has a lot going for it. I guess everyone has to experiment to find the environment/tools/strategies that make them the most effective.

Thanks for the suggestion JLH!

 

[Mbc]

Wow what an amazing thread, taken a while to get through! Thanks to Ransom and everyone else contributing.

Do you stay away from a genre that is dominated by established authors?
For example the "espionage" genre seems to be dominated by well established authors, Tom Clancy, Ludlum, and some others I've seeing on Amazon now. And boy are they killing it. I've found only a few self published authors in that genre, is that a hint?

And you're so right about writing for your market, I remember reading a book by a french author, Bernard Werber, he had little snippets of "fun facts", the literal translation was :
"Stay in popular art. If you are not able to please or reach the public it is your own fault. The public's reaction is the most stimulation pressure. There is no point in preaching in the desert (I'm not sure if this expression translates directly, basically means talking to a brick wall, crying in the wilderness, etc.)"
He actually made a list of how to create a book here
I can translate it if anyone is interested
He's very successful, according to wikipedia "the 2nd most read contemporary french writer world wide".

Also, can I get the link to this famous tool?

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

Get over yourself self righteous author dude.

Apparently you already have a hater in your midst, and I'm the "internet huckster" pulling the puppet strings. LOL. (Check out the "linkbacks" if you want to figure out what I'm talking about.)

 

[Held for Ransom]

Check out the "linkbacks" if you want to figure out what I'm talking about.

Oh man, I would be thrilled to read those...

Unfortunately, I was too busy checking out my "Remittance Advice" notices from Amazon just now to really dig in and figure it out.

Seriously though, I'd love to see that. Can you PM me the instructions on how to find those linkbacks - errr... I mean strings you've pulled?

Also, can I get the link to this famous tool?

PM sent!

 

[Held for Ransom]

Do you stay away from a genre that is dominated by established authors?

Only if you don't want to make any money.

Kidding aside, this is *absolutely* where you want to direct your energy. Study what winners do and emulate it to the best of your ability. In my terribly brief time doing this I've noticed two things - (1) winners write and (2) losers opine about what the winners write. So I follow winners and ignore losers.

As to your situation... It's *possible* that you will break out and have a huge seller right off the bat but it isn't likely. However, that's nothing to be concerned about. It just makes writing like every other business on earth.

In other words, it takes time to "get rich quick" (a.k.a., the "process").

So, don't get too wrapped up in it for now. Instead, take time to study your market in depth and be prepared to not do so great for a while. But, *never ever* shy away from writing the same kinds of things that the best authors in your niche do. To the best of your ability, that is the only thing that you should be doing if you want to earn a good living as a fiction writer.

Others may have a different perspective of course but that's all I have ever done and will do.

HTH!

 

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[hedgehog757]

A quote from my friend at a bookstore in Manhattan, NY after he had his third book published.
"When people ask me how long it took to become an overnight success, I tell them 25 years!"
He now has his 4th book in print.
So, don't expect it to happen quick but expect it to happen!

 

[Virtualgal]

Maybe not the 'nicest' of articles (comes across a bit catty, I think) but this lady has sold 250,000 e-books and has also just signed a major publishing deal, so can't imagine she'd care about the article. No idea what that might work out to be in profit, but she must be doing pretty well. Another self-publishing success, in the erotica genre. She'd never written before this.
The British novelist teaching the U.S to have sex on a rowing machine: Former slab paver from Northampton is new 50 Shades sensation after topping charts in America | Mail Online

 

[Rawr]

HRF you're a rockstar, great post man.

I have 2 things I'm writing- one for the market, one for me BUT the latter one is a proven book genre. - tucker max's did quite well, but I will fully admit it PROBABLY won't do well on it's own UNLESS there was a marketing effort that put the word out. that's the stupid part on me, and ill accept it, but for me to write MY story, MY stuff that actually happened, is both much more fun and much more ego gratifying (when people told me they loved my tidbit of a story i already posted in public, people loved it) - so it is to prove to me that YES this is something people want to read... I did some kick a$$ things.

Here is the selfish reasoning IMO -even if you point the people to what sells and stick their nose in it, the selfish desire to be recognized IS VERY STRONG. to write this but add YOUR OWN spice and hope it sells.. thats the balance, to say "I DID IT MY WAY AND I SUCCEEDED, i was right all along!!' -yeah, ego


now, here is one for ya. any guess on how many books one might expect to need to write before he can start breaking say $50 a day? Assuming writing to market and learning from mistakes? just for the timeline sake.


thank you!

 

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[Held for Ransom]

No idea what that might work out to be in profit, but she must be doing pretty well.

Great find VG!

250,000 x $2 (Net Royalty) = $500,000. Costs were likely minimal.

But of course everyone knows that following trends doesn't work... After all, the only way to make what would take most people TEN YEARS to earn in the span of SIX WEEKS is to "write what you love".

I did some kick a$$ things

THAT is the attitude that will make you a winner.

that's the stupid part on me, and ill accept it, but for me to write MY story, MY stuff that actually happened, is both much more fun and much more ego gratifying

Again, there's nothing wrong with that per se. It's just a matter of adjusting your expectations accordingly. If it hits, awesome... KEEP GOING. If not, don't take it personally. Instead, ask yourself why.

In this example it would likely be due to the lack of market demand behind it.

any guess on how many books one might expect to need to write before he can start breaking say $50 a day?

Well, if you price at $2.99 you'll get roughly $2.00 per sale. So, to net $50 per day, all you need to sell is 25 copies of that title a day.

It's simple math but I'm a simple guy.

 

[Jonleehacker]

Since James Altucher is the Rock Star de Jour on the Fastlane forum today, thought I'd share this article I read today...

How To Self-Publish A Bestseller: Publishing 3.0 | TechCrunch

 

[JPBB]

HfR - truely an inspiration! You've answered a lot of numbers questions I've wondered for a long time. Now I want to do some research. Would you be so kind as to send me a link to the tool?

 

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[Groompf]

HfR - truely an inspiration! You've answered a lot of numbers questions I've wondered for a long time. Now I want to do some research. Would you be so kind as to send me a link to the tool?

I totally agree!
Held for Ransom, I discovered your success with kindle ebooks on another forum, and read carefully this thread. It seems to be a huge opportunity.
Thanks for sharing this information, and keeping us motivated.

Would you also PM me the link to this famous tool?

All the best,

 

[ChickenHawk]

Here's a question for Held for Ransom or anyone who feels like chiming in...

Regarding copyright notices, do you post them in your books? And if so, how do you handle them?

Specifically, I notice on a lot of Kindle books, there's a copyright notice in front. Sometimes it's associated with a publishing house (even if it appears to be a small, privately owned publishing house). Sometimes it's associated with the author's name. Let's say you're writing a Kindle Book under a pen name, would you include a copyright notice under the pen name? Or your real name? Or, would you start a small publishing entity?

Thanks in advance for any insight!

 

[JackTackett]

Check out the following link for some examples you can use.

6 Copyright Page Disclaimers to Copy and Paste Into Your Book

You can use a pen name and even register your US copyright in your pen name.

Here's a question for Held for Ransom or anyone who feels like chiming in...

Regarding copyright notices, do you post them in your books? And if so, how do you handle them?

Specifically, I notice on a lot of Kindle books, there's a copyright notice in front. Sometimes it's associated with a publishing house (even if it appears to be a small, privately owned publishing house). Sometimes it's associated with the author's name. Let's say you're writing a Kindle Book under a pen name, would you include a copyright notice under the pen name? Or your real name? Or, would you start a small publishing entity?

Thanks in advance for any insight!

 

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[Held for Ransom]

I put it at the very end of the book after all the back matter...

All rights reserved. This book or any portion thereof may not be reproduced or used in any manner whatsoever without the express written permission of the author or publisher except for the use of brief quotations in critical articles or reviews.

In the front of the book I put the standard fiction disclaimer...

This is a work of fiction. Names, places, businesses, characters and incidents are either the product of the author's imagination or are used in a fictitious manner. Any resemblance to actual persons living or dead, actual events or locales is purely coincidental.

As to your other questions, it's associated with my pen name. I do not have a publishing company at this time.

 

[Chazmania]

Held for Ransom, f*cking killer thread!! Thanks so much for sharing all of this, you've totally inspired me!! I'm pulling for you to make that $100,000/month Bro!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

So, let me see if I understand correctly: Search Amazon, find best sellers, model them, sit down and write, upload to Amazon and other similar sites. Is that pretty much the broad strokes? Brilliant. Can you send me the link too please?

 

[RahKnee]

HfR, I've been out of the country on vacation for a few weeks with spotty internet access, but I've managed to keep up with this thread. Thanks for the help with my questions. Much appreciated. I've got a few short stories and a novella finished and I'm almost done with a full length novel. I found a guy who does some great custom cover art as well. If anyone would like to get his contact info, send me a message here and I'll point you to his website. Thanks all!

 

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[Thriftypreneur]

Where are you guys finding popular novella categories? I've been browsing several different genres and I'm really not seeing much under 200-500 pages in length. However, people are saying they're finding success with 10,000-20,000 word novellas.

I'd love to put out a few novellas (<50 pages) for fun and maybe some profit, but I'm just not seeing these selling in any of the new/popular/best seller lists. Did amazon gives these the ax? If not, why am I having such a hard time finding these on the store?

 

[sitemaster]

Where are you guys finding popular novella categories? I've been browsing several different genres and I'm really not seeing much under 200-500 pages in length. However, people are saying they're finding success with 10,000-20,000 word novellas.

Did you look at Erotica? That is where these authors are finding success.

 

[Thriftypreneur]

Did you look at Erotica? That is where these authors are finding success.

This is the only genre I'm able to find novellas (30-80 pages) in. And, not surprisingly, the only genre I keep reading that people are having success in with novellas. I haven't read a single post, anywhere talking about the success they've had with novellas in any other genre.

Does the novella publishing model not work in other genres or something?

 

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[JPBB]

Take a look in the "Kindle Singles" fiction category. I haven't yet researched how successful they are, but there are plenty of novellas in other genres.

 

[Thriftypreneur]

Take a look in the "Kindle Singles" fiction category. I haven't yet researched how successful they are, but there are plenty of novellas in other genres.

Yeah, I looked through there, but, and I may be mistaken, those titles don't seem to appear in any of the larger categories. They seem to only show up under "Kindle Singles" and sub-categories.

 

[JPBB]

I'm glad you asked this question. It got me to dig a little deeper. Apparently "Kindle Singles" operates like a traditional publishing house with a slush pile and all. My plan is to write novella length thrillers. I'll create a progress thread within the next 30 days to share how lucrative it is (or not). I don't mind sharing that, because I believe more authors plowing the path, creates more momentum, thus fueling more sales for the whole sub-genre.

 

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[Held for Ransom]

So, let me see if I understand correctly: Search Amazon, find best sellers, model them, sit down and write, upload to Amazon and other similar sites. Is that pretty much the broad strokes? Brilliant. Can you send me the link too please?

That's it in a nutshell. PM sent!

Does the novella publishing model not work in other genres or something?

It works in Romance... At the end of the day, you should forget about the length of the book and just focus on the market. If your book is shorter than others, so what? Just put it out there. In my experience, someone will ALWAYS complain that the book isn't long enough.

Just go for it. Get something published, make mistakes, get bad reviews, make no sales and improve.

That's the best way to know for sure.

For example, my next title will be out in about a week from now. I haven't put anything out in nearly two months due to some chronic health issues that have finally started to improve.

Will it sell? I think so but I don't know for sure - even to this day. Those feelings never go away totally. I'm sure even the best writers in the world have them at some level. Anyway, just wanted to put a little encouragement out there for you Thrifty.

 

[M&N]

Great thread Held for Ransom and congrats on your success. You mentioned having an author website to have more credibility and building a list. Have it helped increase your sales? Do you think building a list makes any difference when it comes to publishing fiction on Amazon?

You haven't wrote a lot about marketing - do you really just hit "publish" and let Amazon work for you? No contacting blogs, submitting book promotions to websites etc?

Thanks!

PS. May I have a look at your tool too?