Flying in.

[N201TH]

Hi. I'm Mark.

I'm a pilot, flight instructor, and a product manager for aviation software.

I'm a sorta-was and a wanna-be.

I started a niche retail and online retail business in my 20s. Turned $300 into $8000 a year and a half later and paid myself along the way.

But I made some ignorant mistakes and thought that $8000 would last me a while during the recession. It didn't. That put a whole bunch of barriers in my head and I hate it. There are some chapters in TMF and Unscripted that hit way too close to home.

Now I'm married, working for a cool company and flying as a side hustle. Pleasantly surviving.

But I want more. I want to bring more value to people's lives. I want our future kids to be inspired by what we do and do something even bigger.

Here to be motivated and corrected.




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[bitsinmyblood]

Hi. I'm Mark.

I'm a pilot, flight instructor, and a product manager for aviation software.

I'm a sorta-was and a wanna-be.

I started a niche retail and online retail business in my 20s. Turned $300 into $8000 a year and a half later and paid myself along the way.

But I made some ignorant mistakes and thought that $8000 would last me a while during the recession. It didn't. That put a whole bunch of barriers in my head and I hate it. There are some chapters in TMF and Unscripted that hit way too close to home.

Now I'm married, working for a cool company and flying as a side hustle. Pleasantly surviving.

But I want more. I want to bring more value to people's lives. I want our future kids to be inspired by what we do and do something even bigger.

Here to be motivated and corrected.




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Welcome home!

 

[Iammelissamoore]

Hi. I'm Mark.

I'm a pilot, flight instructor, and a product manager for aviation software.

I'm a sorta-was and a wanna-be.

I started a niche retail and online retail business in my 20s. Turned $300 into $8000 a year and a half later and paid myself along the way.

But I made some ignorant mistakes and thought that $8000 would last me a while during the recession. It didn't. That put a whole bunch of barriers in my head and I hate it. There are some chapters in TMF and Unscripted that hit way too close to home.

Now I'm married, working for a cool company and flying as a side hustle. Pleasantly surviving.

But I want more. I want to bring more value to people's lives. I want our future kids to be inspired by what we do and do something even bigger.

Here to be motivated and corrected.

Welcome to this beloved Forum.

To be 100% honest, sounds as if you were already on the journey, it's just a mindset tweaking you required (as we often do from time to time) to keep you going. The saying goes that once we learn how to create $1Mn, it can be done again and again - you created what was beginning to be a successful biz, so, you clearly have it within, you have the knowledge that TMF /Unscripted shares, you need a reboot (and I know I say it sounding all simple and straight-forward), but, you know what you desire and more or less, what it may require. Make it happen.

 

[InspireHD]

Hey Mark. PPL here!

Since you work in aviation, you understand the costs that come with it. Something I've been playing around in my head is, "how do we make GA more affordable?" Any thoughts on what we could do to bring down the cost of training and the cost of ownership (parts, insurance, fees, etc.)?

One of the biggest reasons I have stopped flying after getting my PPL was the enormous cost that comes with it. It's hard to justify flying solo just to go 50NM back and forth without a mission.

I like to think on extreme terms and scale like Elon Musk. His solution to the California traffic is to build tunnels underground. What do you think are ways we could go to an extreme to bring the costs of GA down?

 

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[Scot]

You took the words right out of my mouth @InspireHD. My dream business is to become the Toyota of GA. I started working on my PPL, but the costs are crazy. Where I live the cheapest wet rates I could find for a junky 152 were pushing $130/hour.

I'd be curious to hear from @N201TH (haha just got your screen name) how he thinks GA could be saved.

From what I've been hearing GA is dying a slow and painful death and the introduction of LSA hasn't done much to fix the problem.

Thats something you should definitely look into though, finding a way to make GA available to the average joe.

 

[N201TH]

Hey Mark. PPL here!

Awesome! As a pilot you know the difference between risk-taking vs. risk-mitigation. I teach my students about that all the time, but now I need to apply it to my own re-entrepreneuring.

What do you think are ways we could go to an extreme to bring the costs of GA down?

I've thought about this a lot:
- Enable pilots to build community, get to know other pilots (in person!). This leads to more flying clubs and shared usage. Partner-uncertainty has been cited significantly where I am.
- Crowdfunding for private airport development.
- Something something more hangar space.
- P&B Insurance is already lower than auto insurance, but flight school insurance is high. Maybe some sort of instructor-as-underwriter checkout or standardized syllabus which navigates around the riskiest portions (all solo at end of course.
- ...




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[N201TH]

You took the words right out of my mouth @InspireHD. My dream business is to become the Toyota of GA. I started working on my PPL, but the costs are crazy. Where I live the cheapest wet rates I could find for a junky 152 were pushing $130/hour.

I'd be curious to hear from @N201TH (haha just got your screen name) how he thinks GA could be saved.

From what I've been hearing GA is dying a slow and painful death and the introduction of LSA hasn't done much to fix the problem.

Thats something you should definitely look into though, finding a way to make GA available to the average joe.

LSA is a joke. Especially if you weigh more than 100lbs. "Oh, flying's too expensive? Here let's make a super slow plane with no useful load that still costs more than a house."


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[Raoul Duke]

Hi. I'm Mark.

I'm a pilot, flight instructor, and a product manager for aviation software.

I'm a sorta-was and a wanna-be.

I started a niche retail and online retail business in my 20s. Turned $300 into $8000 a year and a half later and paid myself along the way.

But I made some ignorant mistakes and thought that $8000 would last me a while during the recession. It didn't. That put a whole bunch of barriers in my head and I hate it. There are some chapters in TMF and Unscripted that hit way too close to home.

Now I'm married, working for a cool company and flying as a side hustle. Pleasantly surviving.

But I want more. I want to bring more value to people's lives. I want our future kids to be inspired by what we do and do something even bigger.

Here to be motivated and corrected.




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Negative, Ghost Rider, the pattern is full.


Welcome! Please pull up a chair, and stay awhile.

 

[Scot]

Awesome! As a pilot you know the difference between risk-taking vs. risk-mitigation. I teach my students about that all the time, but now I need to apply it to my own re-entrepreneuring.



I've thought about this a lot:
- Enable pilots to build community, get to know other pilots (in person!). This leads to more flying clubs and shared usage. Partner-uncertainty has been cited significantly where I am.
- Crowdfunding for private airport development.
- Something something more hangar space.
- P&B Insurance is already lower than auto insurance, but flight school insurance is high. Maybe some sort of instructor-as-underwriter checkout or standardized syllabus which navigates around the riskiest portions (all solo at end of course.
- ...




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There definitely needs to be a bigger community based around shared aircraft and clubs. I've looked at trying to find clubs, there really aren't any online resources to even find them.

LSA is a joke. Especially if you weigh more than 100lbs. "Oh, flying's too expensive? Here let's make a super slow plane with no useful load that still costs more than a house."


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I saw an article from one of the flying magazines online and the title was something like "10 New LSA planes you can buy for under $100,000" I got a bit excited.

The list was 8 of those stupid parachutes with a fan on the back and 2 kit Cubs.

 

[N201TH]

On the other end of the cost spectrum, I've considered starting an aero-pool with only badass planes. Stuff that you fly just to log it and brag. Warbirds, rare models, etc. Just like those car rental places that let you drive a lamborghini for a day.


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[N201TH]

AOPA is spreading the word on flying clubs (and has a web tool), but they are doing it just about as well as you would expect from a lobbying organization.


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[Scot]

About 80% of the links I click on from the AOPA club website go to dead links or pages built in 1998 never to be touched again.

There's a startup I heard about recently that's trying to be the AirBnB of GA. I'll see if I can find them.

My only thought about renting out high end planes is that your average VFR pilot probably shouldn't be behind the stick of a P51.

 

[InspireHD]

You took the words right out of my mouth @InspireHD. My dream business is to become the Toyota of GA. I started working on my PPL, but the costs are crazy. Where I live the cheapest wet rates I could find for a junky 152 were pushing $130/hour.

Thats something you should definitely look into though, finding a way to make GA available to the average joe.

That sounds about standard and it's still a lot. My first flight school for a Grumman Trainer was $85 + $40 for the instructor. After I changed flight schools into a C152, I was paying $90 + $40. Then, after getting my PPL and the new year rolled in, the rates for the C152 was $100 per hour solo.

The PPL is mostly restricted to recreational flying since the FAA has their regulations on what you can do as a PPL pilot. Just to really take it somewhere, you almost need to get an instrument rating and the Commercial license. That will probably put you around $30,000+ with building time, rentals, fees, etc. (I don't actually know the true costs, but it's up there).

I've thought about this a lot:
- Enable pilots to build community, get to know other pilots (in person!). This leads to more flying clubs and shared usage. Partner-uncertainty has been cited significantly where I am.
- Crowdfunding for private airport development.
- Something something more hangar space.
- P&B Insurance is already lower than auto insurance, but flight school insurance is high. Maybe some sort of instructor-as-underwriter checkout or standardized syllabus which navigates around the riskiest portions (all solo at end of course.
- ...

GA is such a small community already. Isn't it something like 1% of the population are pilots? And with the costs so high, co-ownership could turn into a pissing match with their structures and policies and when you can and can't fly and how often.

There definitely needs to be a bigger community based around shared aircraft and clubs. I've looked at trying to find clubs, there really aren't any online resources to even find them.

This could be an opportunity. I only know of one in my area. They have two really nice C172s with below average rental rates, but the cost just to get into the club is $5,500 plus $250 per month. From what I've read in the past, that is super expensive for a flying club. The flip side is that when you leave the club, they give you back $4,500 - but it's still expensive.

The other thing I've been looking at is having a better marketplace for selling airplanes. A few I've looked at are a mess and the navigation is pretty awful. I haven't really looked into it too much because I know it's such an expensive hobby and the market may not be large enough. I think it would be more of a side project than a full on business venture.

 

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[N201TH]

About 80% of the links I click on from the AOPA club website go to dead links or pages built in 1998 never to be touched again.

There's a startup I heard about recently that's trying to be the AirBnB of GA. I'll see if I can find them.

My only thought about renting out high end planes is that your average VFR pilot probably shouldn't be behind the stick of a P51.

Open Airplane.


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[N201TH]

Consensus: The market is small.

How do we make it bigger?


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[jpanarra]

Consensus: The market is small.

How do we make it bigger?


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Idk anything about General Aviation, but I'm a big time drone hobbyist. The one thing that I've noticed is the price of my crafts are much cheaper than when the hobby started about 3-4 years ago... Why can't planes be as cheap as a middle class automobile? Lets say 30k?

 

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[InspireHD]

Idk anything about General Aviation, but I'm a big time drone hobbyist. The one thing that I've noticed is the price of my crafts are much cheaper than when the hobby started about 3-4 years ago... Why can't planes be as cheap as a middle class automobile? Lets say 30k?

That's the thing. You can find a plane for $30k if you're willing to buy a Cessna 172 from the '60s or '70s. As long as maintenance is done to standard and the engines are repaired properly, a 40-50 year old plane flies great. A lot of flight schools have older planes because they take a beating over the years from the students learning how to fly. I think the C152 I trained in was from the mid-70s.

 

[jpanarra]

That's the thing. You can find a plane for $30k if you're willing to buy a Cessna 172 from the '60s or '70s. As long as maintenance is done to standard and the engines are repaired properly, a 40-50 year old plane flies great. A lot of flight schools have older planes because they take a beating over the years from the students learning how to fly. I think the C152 I trained in was from the mid-70s.

Then why not make a plane that's just as good but NEW because our manufacturing quality and efficiency has increased in multiples. I'm sure that'll attract a number of people... Shake up the market by dropping the price and the competition will follow if they have to, like Tesla did for the electric car.

 

[N201TH]

You can buy airworthy old Bonanzas and even cabin class twins on the cheap right now. It's parts and maintenance.

I know the airline market is looking into 3D printing or other additive manufacturing. Could a parts-on-demand business solve some of cost barriers? Textron and Piper have little motivation to keep parts on hand for old models, so a control lock or interior door panel ends up costing $500-$1000.


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[N201TH]

Screw it. Let's 3D print entire airplanes under the part 23 re-write


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[Scot]

Maybe it's misplaced nostalgia, but I look at what GA was back in the 50's and 60's if you could afford a car you could afford to fly.

Then why not make a plane that's just as good but NEW because our manufacturing quality and efficiency has increased in multiples. I'm sure that'll attract a number of people... Shake up the market by dropping the price and the competition will follow if they have to, like Tesla did for the electric car.

To be honest, that is my dream business. If I ever exit my current business, I'm starting this next.

Here's why it's so hard though.

The FAA makes it excruciatingly hard to get new aircraft approved. The amount of regulations, testing and approvals take years to get a concept into production. That combined with liability are huge factors. I remember reading about a court case where an aircraft manufacturer was sued and lost because of a plane crash. Even though it was 100% pilot error, the aircraft design was held liable.

The design and approval process is big $$$

That combined with a small customer size, the market to buy them isn't there.

So you're stuck with a chicken and the egg scenario. Aircraft need to be produced in scale for price to come down, but there aren't people to buy them. Someone has to both streamline their approval process and streamline production.

 

[Scot]

Screw it. Let's 3D print entire airplanes under the part 23 re-write


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This combined with a Toyota style super lean manufacturing process could definitely shake up the industry.

If you think about it GA is the next industry waiting for a disruptor. You have stagnant old brands like Cessna, Piper, Beachcraft who haven't innovated in 30 years. The only innovator is Cirrus and their planes sell for $1 million.

 

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[N201TH]

Maybe it's misplaced nostalgia, but I look at what GA was back in the 50's and 60's if you could afford a car you could afford to fly.



To be honest, that is my dream business. If I ever exit my current business, I'm starting this next.

Here's why it's so hard though.

The FAA makes it excruciatingly hard to get new aircraft approved. The amount of regulations, testing and approvals take years to get a concept into production. That combined with liability are huge factors. I remember reading about a court case where an aircraft manufacturer was sued and lost because of a plane crash. Even though it was 100% pilot error, the aircraft design was held liable.

The design and approval process is big $$$

That combined with a small customer size, the market to buy them isn't there.

So you're stuck with a chicken and the egg scenario. Aircraft need to be produced in scale for price to come down, but there aren't people to buy them. Someone has to both streamline their approval process and streamline production.

This is changing though. It may take longer than we'd like, but the FAA is moving to a performance based certification. "Make sure it can handle x and y by whatever means possible" instead of the current "you must make it like this"


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