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Fed Up With Your Country? Where Is Left to Go?

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Chester Morgan

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Life isn't about making yourself miserable for the sake of being miserable. I hate cold weather and I still hated it even when I was taking cold showers every single day and swimming or surfing in water of 3-5 degrees Celsius.

Some people thrive in cold climates, some thrive in warm climates. Some like it cloudy, others like it sunny. The job of a self-aware entrepreneur is to find where they feel and operate best. Upgrading your home base can make a dramatic impact on your overall well-being, happiness, and performance in business. Meanwhile, staying in a bad place can literally kill you.



Not sure what your CENTS criteria are but based on my experience, there are at least a few places that do match all of @Zaratustra's requirements:
  • Liechtenstein - one of my favorite countries in Europe. Extremely beautiful, super small with a super small population but functions pretty much like a part of Switzerland so it gives you access to a much larger population AND also that of neighboring countries (including a huge German-speaking market). It's a principality with the Prince having veto powers so theoretically not that free but one doesn't have to look long to see how great "fully democratic" countries fare. Not much ever changes there but it doesn't pretend to be a futuristic place. It just works well and there's no need to reinvent the wheel. Hard to immigrate to, though, as they have immigration limits.
  • Switzerland - one of my favorite countries in Europe, too. Super stable, with a lot of freedom, great business opportunities, incredible landscapes, solid infrastructure, and in general working well. It's also fun that it's a multi-cultural and multi-language country. Like Liechtenstein, perhaps it isn't changing super fast but it doesn't have to, either.
  • Andorra - not my favorite but I can't deny that it's also very free and its location gives you easy access to both France and Spain. They have very low taxes and are very entrepreneur-friendly. Some nice landscapes, too but it has a claustrophobic feel as it's mostly located in a narrow valley.
  • Monaco - I didn't like it as it was waaaay too small and claustrophobic but you get much better climate and a lot of luxury if that's your thing. Also very tax-friendly and with easy access to France and Italy.
  • Singapore - didn't like it that much as it's too urbanized (though incomparably better than Monaco) but again, I can't deny it's probably one of the most entrepreneur-friendly and capitalistic countries in the world. Huge sums of money floating there. Like Switzerland they're also a neutral country so super stable, too.
Like I said a few times before, if the cold weather and lack of ocean didn't bother me that much, I'd probably move to Liechtenstein or Switzerland. But who knows, maybe one day I'll buy a house in Switzerland to spend there some time each year. I always advise to travel as much as possible. 2 weeks ago I returned from my trip to the North Pole (got there via this company). It was unforgettable! Simply the best experience I have ever had as a tourist!
Before I read your post I had thought that Andorra had been something like Mongolia in terms of development. I am glad I was wrong. Hope to visit it someday *fingers crossed*
 
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GlobalWealth

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Are you talking about Evolve? I went out and bought home gym equipment and a streaming membership because the last time I went to one most were wearing masks.
There's a really nice Crossfit gym down the road that no one wears them at that I might start going to.


Like @GlobalWealth said, over on this coast it's mostly a non-issue. However, when I was last in Mexico City it was terrible. 95% of people walking around outside were masked. I couldn't wait to get back over here. So it really depends on where you go in the country. The further away you get from the big cities, the less scamdemic nonsense you have to deal with.

Yes, Evolve. No mask requirements there, but some people do wear one of their own accord. To each his own.

I was in Mexico city 2 weekends ago and agreed, there were way too many people wearing masks and way too much enforcement of mask wearing. Glad to be back to PDC.
 

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Under my own CENTS criteria, not sure there is any country.

To some extent, this is true. You never have the "control" aspect in place living in any country.

But where you can reclaim that control is to arbitrage countries based on their strongest points.
 

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ALC

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I was thinking about Montenegro as potential next base whenever im fully operating my businesses online. Safe, no covid, no bullshit, great taxes if long term and lovely people.

I personnally have a huge urge to move from France, the vibes are so weird since Covid.
 

Itizn

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Not really fed up with my country anymore. I'm getting fed up with C0VlD. It feels like it's never going to go away.
really? IMO we've already gotten past it.

Then again I'm not crossing borders, boarding planes, or involved in large gathering events, and mostly walk everywhere without a mask. Occasionally I'll get some mall cop yapping at me but that's about it.
 
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MTF

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Ireland has nightclubs fully open with hundreds/thousands with no masks but you still have to wear a mask in supermarkets. It’s just become hilarious at this stage tbh!

Come to Spain (or more specifically, the Canary Islands) and you'll see what hilarious is. They currently have some of the lowest number since the start of this BS, yet still judge their risk as "medium" and you have LOTS of people wearing masks outdoors, even when in the middle of nowhere or driving a car by themselves. Everything is open yet you can still only access a restaurant's menu through a QR code (as if you could really get infected by touching a menu, come on...).

I doubt this fear will go away anytime soon here. Perhaps an entire generation will have to pass before people start acting normal here again. Baseless fear is now everyday life for them.

This, plus tons of other issues I've had during my stay here make me pessimistic about the future of Spain, a country I used to like more in the past than now as I see all the clowns obediently and voluntarily wearing masks.
 

masterneme

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Come to Spain (or more specifically, the Canary Islands) and you'll see what hilarious is. They currently have some of the lowest number since the start of this BS, yet still judge their risk as "medium" and you have LOTS of people wearing masks outdoors, even when in the middle of nowhere or driving a car by themselves. Everything is open yet you can still only access a restaurant's menu through a QR code (as if you could really get infected by touching a menu, come on...).

I doubt this fear will go away anytime soon here. Perhaps an entire generation will have to pass before people start acting normal here again. Baseless fear is now everyday life for them.

This, plus tons of other issues I've had during my stay here make me pessimistic about the future of Spain, a country I used to like more in the past than now as I see all the clowns obediently and voluntarily wearing masks.
Exactly what I've been saying, Spain is done and just like you I think is very tragic but is what people want, which I find infuriating. We could be like Switzerland with beaches, instead we got Venezuela.

And in the future it will be worse, the country is bankrupt, there's political unrest, bad migration non-stop, awful laws in place, unfair justice system controlled by the government (or I should say socialists), doing business is hell, burocracy is slow and inefficient, police doesn't enforce law, separatism, corruption everywhere, new taxes every week... and more to come.

Did you know that recently the Constitutional Tribunal declared that some of our lockdowns were illegal?

Consequences? Protests? Nothing.

N
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H
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This should tell you everything about where we're heading towards.

If you really REALLY like Spain, live in Portugal, or better yet in Andorra. And come here for tourism. Other than that stay away from here.

Edit: I've been doing some research about Spain's Golden Visa program. If you invest 500.000€ or more in real state you can get a Spanish passport.

The good news is that you don't even need to live here, nor speak Spanish, nor know anything about the history or culture.

BUT, you need to keep the investment for 10 years. TEN YEARS.

So personally I don't know if it's worthy anymore since you can "become European" in Cyprus or Malta in much less time and for less money.
 
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Mammoth

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Exactly what I've been saying, Spain is done and just like you I think is very tragic but is what people want, which I find infuriating. We could be like Switzerland with beaches, instead we got Venezuela.

And in the future it will be worse, the country is bankrupt, there's political unrest, bad migration non-stop, awful laws in place, unfair justice system controlled by the government (or I should say socialist party), doing business is hell, burocracy is slow and inefficient, police doesn't enforce law, separatism, corruption everywhere, new taxes every week... and more to come.

Did you know that recently the Constitutional Tribunal declared that some of our lockdowns were illegal?

Consequences? Protests? Nothing.

N
O
T
H
I
N
G


This should tell you everything about where we're heading towards.

If you really REALLY like Spain, live in Portugal, or better yet in Andorra. And come here for tourism.
So all that said...when are you getting out? Where are you headed? Sounds like you're pretty fed up
 

masterneme

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So all that said...when are you getting out? Where are you headed? Sounds like you're pretty fed up
My plans have changed since my last visit to the forum.

I'm discarding Mexico, I want to stay in Europe.

Where is something I'm deciding yet, I have a couple of options right now on the table.

You see? It's not as easy as leaving the country and that's it. If you're a resident you're trapped, you can't renounce your residency like in every other place. You need to FIRST spend 6 months within a natural year somewhere else, then come back to Spain and tell them to stop taxing you showing irrefutable proof that you live out.

And you can't leave anything linking to you or they'll sneak penalties. Here's where I'm at right now, trying to close pending tasks and how much will take to finish everything is uncertain.
 

Mammoth

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My plans have changed since my last visit to the forum.

I'm discarding Mexico, I want to stay in Europe.

Where is something I'm deciding yet, I have a couple of options right now on the table.

You see? It's not as easy as leaving the country and that's it. If you're a resident you're trapped, you can't renounce your residency like in every other place. You need to FIRST spend 6 months within a natural year somewhere else, then come back to Spain and tell them to stop taxing you showing irrefutable proof that you live out.

And you can't leave anything linking to you or they'll sneak penalties. Here's where I'm at right now, trying to close pending tasks and how much will take to finish everything is uncertain.
That's unfortunate. But worth all the struggle in the end if there's no future in that country for you.

It was much easier leaving Canada. I ceased being a tax-paying resident the day I left.
 
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MTF

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Exactly what I've been saying, Spain is done and just like you I think is very tragic but is what people want, which I find infuriating. We could be like Switzerland with beaches, instead we got Venezuela.

And in the future it will be worse, the country is bankrupt, there's political unrest, bad migration non-stop, awful laws in place, unfair justice system controlled by the government (or I should say socialists), doing business is hell, burocracy is slow and inefficient, police doesn't enforce law, separatism, corruption everywhere, new taxes every week... and more to come.

Did you know that recently the Constitutional Tribunal declared that some of our lockdowns were illegal?

Consequences? Protests? Nothing.

N
O
T
H
I
N
G


This should tell you everything about where we're heading towards.

If you really REALLY like Spain, live in Portugal, or better yet in Andorra. And come here for tourism. Other than that stay away from here.

Edit: I've been doing some research about Spain's Golden Visa program. If you invest 500.000€ or more in real state you can get a Spanish passport.

The good news is that you don't even need to live here, nor speak Spanish, nor know anything about the history or culture.

BUT, you need to keep the investment for 10 years. TEN YEARS.

So personally I don't know if it's worthy anymore since you can "become European" in Cyprus or Malta in much less time and for less money.

Yep I agree with that assessment with the socialistic tendencies and a very closed mind for most people being the key reasons why Spain is in terrible decline.

I'm discarding Mexico, I want to stay in Europe.

Where is something I'm deciding yet, I have a couple of options right now on the table.

What are the options?

I think that except for the Balkans and some smaller countries nobody talks about (like Slovenia), Switzerland might be the best bet.


time for me to get out of here

Sad but to be expected all over the world.

This part cracked me up:

Despite the encouraging news, however, Ruíz warned that the fourth wave of new infections has been “deferred” – given the vaccination roll-out and obligatory wearing of face masks until, at least, the end of this year.

There's always this neat "BUT" to keep scaring people. And insisting on that BS that wearing masks affects anything is hilarious.
 

Mammoth

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time for me to get out of here
That sucks...I was looking forward to visiting Colombia soon because the only entry requirement they have is health insurance against cov.
Well, hopefully the requirement just sticks to that list in the article...but based on how it's gone everywhere else in the world that list will just get bigger every month.

Countries Without Any Travel Restrictions Or Entry Requirements

This list keeps getting smaller! Now I see Costa Rica is going for vaxx-passports starting December 1st, sad.

On the flip side, here in Quintana Roo it's supposed to be low season right now. There is no low season and they're seeing higher numbers of tourists than pre-scamdemic. When I came through the airport last week the line for immigration was massive. Couldn't fit anymore people in that room.

It makes me think of the Amazon buy with one click button. The less barriers to entry, the more customers you'll have.
 
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masterneme

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Yep I agree with that assessment with the socialistic tendencies and a very closed mind for most people being the key reasons why Spain is in terrible decline.



What are the options?

I think that except for the Balkans and some smaller countries nobody talks about (like Slovenia), Switzerland might be the best bet.



Sad but to be expected all over the world.

This part cracked me up:



There's always this neat "BUT" to keep scaring people. And insisting on that BS that wearing masks affects anything is hilarious.
I consider anything with less than 20% taxes as good in my book. Ideally Andorra until I can remove my Spanish resident status and then Estonia as a perpetual traveler enjoying no corporate tax unless I move dividends.

I also like Switzerland but I see it more of a retirement destination.

But I'm trying not to get very deep into this or I will start action faking and/or procastinating, if I can't put my shit together any plans I make will be worthless and any research an exercise in mental masturbation.
 

masterneme

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That sucks...I was looking forward to visiting Colombia soon because the only entry requirement they have is health insurance against cov.
Well, hopefully the requirement just sticks to that list in the article...but based on how it's gone everywhere else in the world that list will just get bigger every month.

Countries Without Any Travel Restrictions Or Entry Requirements

This list keeps getting smaller! Now I see Costa Rica is going for vaxx-passports starting December 1st, sad.

On the flip side, here in Quintana Roo it's supposed to be low season right now. There is no low season and they're seeing higher numbers of tourists than pre-scamdemic. When I came through the airport last week the line for immigration was massive. Couldn't fit anymore people in that room.

It makes me think of the Amazon buy with one click button. The less barriers to entry, the more customers you'll have.
And this is the main reason I want to stay in Europe, I can deal with non-sense if it comes from my continent and in the worst case I can come back and stay wih the family.

I mentioned it a couple of times, hispanics (including Spaniards) are weird. One generation are ultra hard working people that sacrifice everything for their kids and the next generation are lazy entitled destructive morons that demand authoritarian control of their lives. One day they're laid back easy going and happy and the next day they're burning the streets demanding the removal of freedoms.

I don't want to deal with this kind of emotional roller coasters.
 

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I consider anything with less than 20% taxes as good in my book. Ideally Andorra until I can remove my Spanish resident status and then Estonia as a perpetual traveler enjoying no corporate tax unless I move dividends.

I also like Switzerland but I see it more of a retirement destination.

But I'm trying not to get very deep into this or I will start action faking and/or procastinating, if I can't put my shit together any plans I make will be worthless and any research an exercise in mental masturbation.

I spent a couple of days in Andorra last fall and found it quite depressing. Because of its location mostly in the valley, very little sun reaches the houses there. Have you already spent there some time?
 
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Well looks like Mexico is it for us really soon. The vaccine passports to fly come into effect the end of the month .

I am kind of wanting to drive there though so we have a vehicle with some stuff, but of course you can't drive into USA without a Vax. Perfectly okay to fly in, but drive? Nope. Don't think too hard about it.
 

AceVentures

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Well looks like Mexico is it for us really soon. The VAXClNE passports to fly come into effect the end of the month .

I am kind of wanting to drive there though so we have a vehicle with some stuff, but of course you can't drive into USA without a Vax. Perfectly okay to fly in, but drive? Nope. Don't think too hard about it.

Yea I had to sell a car I loved because of the border BS. Quit thinking damnit, get on the plane and figure the rest as you go.
 

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Yea I had to sell a car I loved because of the border BS. Quit thinking damnit, get on the plane and figure the rest as you go.
Lol. We are don't worry. See you at Ik Kil.

If we can't figure out the drive, we are flying. I'll be finalizing it all by next week.
 
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Mammoth

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masterneme

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I spent a couple of days in Andorra last fall and found it quite depressing. Because of its location mostly in the valley, very little sun reaches the houses there. Have you already spent there some time?
I've been there in 3 occasions but I don't know how a long stay would be, my home town is cold and rainy so I don't think it would bother me too much.
 
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ALC

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I spent a couple of days in Andorra last fall and found it quite depressing. Because of its location mostly in the valley, very little sun reaches the houses there. Have you already spent there some time?
There's really nothing there, its just a tax thing if im being honest. Id rather pay some amount of taxes but being in a decent country
 

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There's really nothing there, its just a tax thing if im being honest. Id rather pay some amount of taxes but being in a decent country

Yep at some point of the decision-making process you need to decide if you want to lower your taxes at all costs (but possibly have a worse lifestyle) or keep paying more (possibly be frustrated with it) but live in a more enjoyable place.
 

ALC

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Yep at some point of the decision-making process you need to decide if you want to lower your taxes at all costs (but possibly have a worse lifestyle) or keep paying more (possibly be frustrated with it) but live in a more enjoyable place.
Honestly i would just see it as in which part of your life you are at.

If tax cut helps your business to grow more exponentially then it may be worth it for couple months or years but the huge downside is how boring this part of the world is, really need a strong mindset / resistance to boring.
 
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the huge downside is how boring this part of the world is, really need a strong mindset / resistance to boring.

I spent a couple of days in Andorra last fall and found it quite depressing. Because of its location mostly in the valley, very little sun reaches the houses there.

Well, to each one its tastes I guess. I already live in a small town, looking to go to the countryside, and spend much of my freetime in the mountains, which are half an hour drive away. Of course, if you don't enjoy hiking related stuff, there pretty much is nothing to do there.
The more I go through in life, the more I see myself wanting to isolate further from the mess of the world.

@MTF , do you think you found it depressing because living in the mountains might not be your thing, or have you spent time in other mountainous areas where you had a better feeling than in Andorra ?

I will probably just go there to find out for myself at some point, it's a 3 hours drive from home.
 

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@MTF , do you think you found it depressing because living in the mountains might not be your thing, or have you spent time in other mountainous areas where you had a better feeling than in Andorra ?

I don't mind being in the mountains and enjoy peaceful places. I've spent time in some mountainous places like Liechtenstein, Switzerland and Italy and enjoyed them all way more than Andorra.

I think that Andorra is fine for a few days but I can't imagine myself living there. Meanwhile, I could imagine living in Switzerland or a mountainous area in another larger and more open country (by open I mean it's not stuck in a narrow valley like most of Andorra).

Perhaps you'd enjoy it. There are people who think it's great and there are at least a few good reasons why (super safe, very developed with lighting fast fiber optic Internet pretty much everywhere, low taxes, paradise for winter sports lovers, mountain biking and hiking as well).
 

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