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Black_Dragon43

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Miracles exist. Supernatural phenomenons also exist. Miracles happen because of faith. Faith is the Good Side. Magic is the Naughty Side.

Miracles are things that happen outside of nature because God intervened for men on their behalf. A fourteen year old French peasant girl should NEVER have been able to save an entire country by calling everyone to war, yet that’s exactly what happened. Joan of Arc is a miracle.

Magic is when ppl want to interrupt Nature and make stuff happen for their own reasons. Monsanto creating seeds that don’t reproduce and making billions while farmers kill themselves is bad magic.

Nature has specific rules like gravity, cause and effect, plate tectonics, muscle growth, etc.

You cannot manipulate reality to force things to happen in an untimely way, outside of Nature’s rules, unless you practice some powerful Magic.

Magic is the art of manipulating nature to do stuff that it’s not supposed to do. Faith is believing that if you work within the laws of Nature God might rearrange things a bit to help you more.

It’s perfectly ok to wish that you could use magic to change your world. We all want an easier way.. life is hard. Suffering sucks. Using magic ruins your soul though because your pride twists you into a mess.

It’s better to obey the rules of the Universe instead of trying to manipulate them. By just admitting that there are rules and respecting them you will respect yourself more and help others more and be filled with love.

The book sounds like it’s mingling one truth (you have a soul and you are powerfully connected to the Universe) with a lie (you can manipulate the Universe whenever you want if you do certain things).
100%, thank you.

The laws of physics get broken often enough. Often by physicists looking to gain a deeper understanding of the laws of the universe. It's really cool stuff.
This is an interesting discussion, which the intellectual of today often doesn't consider. People treat the laws of physics as if they had causal effectiveness in the Universe, whereas they are just descriptions of regularities. Furthermore, they treat the laws of physics as if they are true when they are merely models used to predict a small portion of reality, and that's it.

There's NOTHING true about relativity. ZERO. The theory is all bullshit as far as I'm concerned, as much bullshit as Newton's theories of gravity when it comes to telling us what the truth is. In fact, as much bullshit as worshipping the god of the volcano. They're only useful to make predictions. If you build your worldview upon scientific theories, then good luck shaking everything up when they will inevitably change.

Does spacetime bend around massive objects? Bullshit. It's just what we use to describe the motion of planets, and the other effects that we observe. There's nothing true about it. "Spacetime" and so on are merely concepts we have invented, to help us predict what happens. No different than "the god of the volcano" apart from having better predictive power.

Why is this the case?

Think of a scientific theory as an equation that must match a limited, finite set of data.

For any given finite data set, there are AN INFINITE number of equations that PERFECTLY describe the data set.

Below is an example.

Consider this equation Newton's theory of gravity. Massive objects exert a force around them to pull other objects in. You see we have 4 data points there (or any finite number of them - there's actually an infinite number of data points between those 4). The law perfectly describes them.

And so you go on thinking about what this force means in the history of the cosmos, and how it caused the Universe to begin, and bla bla. That is what's called extrapolation.
Screenshot 2021-04-19 at 12.38.34.png
And guess what, extrapolation is no better than believing in the volcano god. It's BULLSHIT.

Because the truth is that this isn't the only theory that explains the predictive zone. This one works just as well:

Screenshot 2021-04-19 at 12.39.14.png

It looks the same o_O ofc. Short term, you will see no difference. But extrapolate far enough, and the predictions are totally different...
Screenshot 2021-04-19 at 12.39.20.png
Why do you prefer the former over the latter (or over the other infinity of potential equations that would describe the data set just as well?)? There's no rational reason to prefer it. You prefer it because it's simpler, but of course, the Universe has no reason to "be simple" in the first place.

So you go on collecting more data (the orange data points), and it doesn't fit the f*cking theory anymore! Uhhhh, what a disaster, you based your entire life around it...
Screenshot 2021-04-19 at 13.04.52.png
So Einstein comes along, and he discovers a new theory. The theory of relativity. Now there is no force of gravity at all! It's just the geometry of spacetime that produces the motion (another theory, we all know how those end up...).

Here it is:

Screenshot 2021-04-19 at 12.39.01.png
But once again, this isn't the only theory that can describe the data set. There's an infinity of other equations as well.

So now scientists take Einstein's theory of gravity and they tell us that the Universe began in a Big Bang o_O. There's the extrapolation again... LOL! :rofl: Science is nothing more than another mythology.

So remember, out of an infinity of possible theories, they just chose this one, and they think they can extrapolate it as far as the beginning of the Universe. How is that any different from guys dancing around a volcano thinking that they can prevent an eruption in that manner?

The point being science is good for predictions, NOT for telling us the truth.

I am saddened to imagine a world where everything can be explained by man's understanding of science. What a dull and finite place that would be.
I think such a world is impossible. People only think such is possible because they don't understand the irresolvable problems that science has in getting to the truth. Truth does not mean prediction.

Watch this video about a miracle performer and tell me you still believe in miracles

View: https://youtu.be/KaPLylJk89w?t=2096
Heh, the state authorities don't stop him because they're taking a cut, obviously! :rofl:
A lot of people do this with exported Buddhism too - if only I can unlock my level 50 Bankei level Zen then I'll be the next Elon Musk. It's what happens when you prefer to find a silver bullet rather than learning to grind.
And paradoxically, Elon Musk doesn't give a shit about spirituality.
 

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Ellenit

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I am reading Autobiography of a Yogi.

I'd love to get some feedback about the book.

The author talks about miracles all throughout the book.

It sounds like a scam to me. I get offended, irritated, while listening to it.

I have posted something in another thread talking about the Self Realization Center that this guy founded in LA.

I have been there and the guided meditation (free) I have participated in once has been one of the most powerful experiences I have ever had.

At the same time, I cannot believe these miracles he talks about in the book.

I would love to believe in them because life would be much better.

What do you think about it?

We are talking about things that science cannot explain.

PS
My wish is that once I accept the book, I will be able to perform miracles as well.
How do you define miracles? The thing is that no one has the big picture of life but every individual is a unique perspective of the Universe. Science has started to explain that everything is energy and everything is connected, so according to how you manage your energy (thoughts, emotions, actions) things around you move as well and so you increase your chances for "miracles" to happen. This applies to health, finances, and relationships. No one has the absolute truth, but people (like the author of your book) can provide chunks of useful information so you come to your own conclusions.
 

Steeltip

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I agree with this as long we aren't saying the laws of physics and the laws of the universe are the same thing.

This is in keeping with this quote from St. Augustine, "Miracles are not contrary to nature, but only contrary to what we know about nature."

The laws of physics get broken often enough. Often by physicists looking to gain a deeper understanding of the laws of the universe. It's really cool stuff.

Does dark matter exist or are we just fooling ourselves? Is quantum teleportation travelling information faster than the speed of light? Does time actually become distance inside a black hole? Giant particles really exist in the two places at once?

Why do the two biggest theories in physics, both of which have made verifiable predictions many times over, not seem to agree on the basic question of whether the universe is deterministic or probabilistic?

To suggest it is both is illogical. And yet, here we are. To the best of anyone's ability, both appear true at the same time.

It's a superposition of theories. (Superposition is a much nicer, more "sciencey" way of saying illogical).

Is something that breaks the laws of logic, but is also true, considered a miracle? Asking for a friend...

There's a reason why new agey types feel bolstered by quantum discoveries. Dig into it and science had gotten way way more weird than some guy saying his friend visited him in a dream and lives on another planet. People have been having similarly familiar "dreams" for millennia.

And you know, what if the mystical is inherently a personal communication such that it cannot be experienced the same way by two people? Shoot, light is a particle and a wave, or not, depending on how we're watching, so it's not like there isn't precedent. What if it also is just governed by rules that we don't fully understand yet?

Not only do we humans have a limited capacity to measure, to understand, but we are trapped by our own biases and beliefs on top of that.

Science is weird and can't reveal everything, yet. Religion is weird and can't reveal everything, yet.

Truth is elusive.

Yet so many act like they have the monopoly. It's a conundrum. Socrates was right.

You are; therefore you think; both of these statements are miraculous.

As a Christian, I think the existence of miracles is self evident. We have this thing called life. Consciousness. No one can explain how it happens to everyone's satisfaction, but it is so ubiquitous the science types just take for granted that it must not be a miracle.

I am saddened to imagine a world where everything can be explained by man's understanding of science. What a dull and finite place that would be.

Just the fact that the laws of physics or the universe exist seems pretty miraculous to me.

I'll close with a couple more Augustinisms:

"What then is time? If no one asks me, I know what it is. If I wish to explain it to him who asks, I do not know."

"Faith is to believe what you do not yet see; the reward for this faith is to see what you believe."

"Pray as though everything depended on God. Work as though everything depended on you."
Yes, I completely agree, man has defined the laws of physics using math as a way to describe the laws of the universe. I am of the opinion that there is a whole lot that we simply do not know out there waiting to be discovered.

Those links are solid too, I am a huge science junky who can't get enough of that stuff.
 

claudek

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How do you define miracles? The thing is that no one has the big picture of life but every individual is a unique perspective of the Universe. Science has started to explain that everything is energy and everything is connected, so according to how you manage your energy (thoughts, emotions, actions) things around you move as well and so you increase your chances for "miracles" to happen. This applies to health, finances, and relationships. No one has the absolute truth, but people (like the author of your book) can provide chunks of useful information so you come to your own conclusions.
Thank you for the feedback.

Yes, I think "miracles" are individual and unique, as you said.

For a master dedicating his life to meditation and meeting other gurus, extraordinary events are different from a person that lives in an opposite culture and environment.

Thinking about it, this topic can be categorized (even if the word is restrictive) as an anthropological matter.
 

BizyDad

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100%, thank you.


This is an interesting discussion, which the intellectual of today often doesn't consider. People treat the laws of physics as if they had causal effectiveness in the Universe, whereas they are just descriptions of regularities. Furthermore, they treat the laws of physics as if they are true when they are merely models used to predict a small portion of reality, and that's it.

There's NOTHING true about relativity. ZERO. The theory is all bullshit as far as I'm concerned, as much bullshit as Newton's theories of gravity when it comes to telling us what the truth is. In fact, as much bullshit as worshipping the god of the volcano. They're only useful to make predictions. If you build your worldview upon scientific theories, then good luck shaking everything up when they will inevitably change.

Does spacetime bend around massive objects? Bullshit. It's just what we use to describe the motion of planets, and the other effects that we observe. There's nothing true about it. "Spacetime" and so on are merely concepts we have invented, to help us predict what happens. No different than "the god of the volcano" apart from having better predictive power.

Why is this the case?

Think of a scientific theory as an equation that must match a limited, finite set of data.

For any given finite data set, there are AN INFINITE number of equations that PERFECTLY describe the data set.

Below is an example.

Consider this equation Newton's theory of gravity. Massive objects exert a force around them to pull other objects in. You see we have 4 data points there (or any finite number of them - there's actually an infinite number of data points between those 4). The law perfectly describes them.

And so you go on thinking about what this force means in the history of the cosmos, and how it caused the Universe to begin, and bla bla. That is what's called extrapolation.
View attachment 37626
And guess what, extrapolation is no better than believing in the volcano god. It's BULLSHIT.

Because the truth is that this isn't the only theory that explains the predictive zone. This one works just as well:

View attachment 37629

It looks the same o_O ofc. Short term, you will see no difference. But extrapolate far enough, and the predictions are totally different...
View attachment 37630
Why do you prefer the former over the latter (or over the other infinity of potential equations that would describe the data set just as well?)? There's no rational reason to prefer it. You prefer it because it's simpler, but of course, the Universe has no reason to "be simple" in the first place.

So you go on collecting more data (the orange data points), and it doesn't fit the f*cking theory anymore! Uhhhh, what a disaster, you based your entire life around it...
View attachment 37628
So Einstein comes along, and he discovers a new theory. The theory of relativity. Now there is no force of gravity at all! It's just the geometry of spacetime that produces the motion (another theory, we all know how those end up...).

Here it is:

View attachment 37631
But once again, this isn't the only theory that can describe the data set. There's an infinity of other equations as well.

So now scientists take Einstein's theory of gravity and they tell us that the Universe began in a Big Bang o_O. There's the extrapolation again... LOL! :rofl: Science is nothing more than another mythology.

So remember, out of an infinity of possible theories, they just chose this one, and they think they can extrapolate it as far as the beginning of the Universe. How is that any different from guys dancing around a volcano thinking that they can prevent an eruption in that manner?

The point being science is good for predictions, NOT for telling us the truth.


I think such a world is impossible. People only think such is possible because they don't understand the irresolvable problems that science has in getting to the truth. Truth does not mean prediction.


Heh, the state authorities don't stop him because they're taking a cut, obviously! :rofl:

And paradoxically, Elon Musk doesn't give a shit about spirituality.

Ok, first off, when I was writing my post, it was a bit late, and I asked myself should I keep writing? Should I connect the dots for people? I decided not to. It was late, and people are smart, they could do it for themselves, I told myself. That was literally my final thoughts before I rolled over and feel asleep.

Then I wake up, and you, Mr Smart Guy, LITERALLY CONNECTED DOTS FOR PEOPLE.

I lost it. I couldn't stop laughing. It was epic and awesome. Moments like this are partly why I believe in miracles. My life is full of moments like these. What are the odds?

That was insightful stuff and gave me a new way to approach these kinds of discussions. So thank you.

And while I agree with the spirit of the message, and many of the points you made, I can't go all the way there with you. I don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water.

Science is not a mythology. Science is useful for more than just making predictions. And the only evidence I really need for that is the fact that I am speaking words into a device, which are transcribing those words into text on a screen, which will soon be published into the ether or a server, and later read by others a world away.

Mythology can't do that. And while it is possible for everyone to dream of their dead friends speaking via dreams from another place, that is nowhere near as ubiquitous nor replicable as our experience with computing devices and the internet as a form of communication.

The closest I can go is to say that mythology can be formed from science, but they are not one in the same.

As for whether science can reveal truth or not, well, I cannot claim with the same certainty you have whether it can or cannot. It certainly appears to be able to, or at least reveal aspects of truth. I do not discount it also appears capable of error.

Setting that aside for a moment, the more fundamental question I've been wondering is this...does science exist outside the human mind. I posit it does, I suspect you think otherwise. But how could we possibly prove either?

And that line of thought inevitably leads me to how do we know the truth? I've been giving this a lot of thought lately. What can I know to be true beyond a shadow of doubt? My list is quite small.

Anyways, thanks again for your response, and for casting a light on some of the shadows.
 

Black_Dragon43

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I enioyed reading your post, it's a good discussion.
Science is not a mythology. Science is useful for more than just making predictions. And the only evidence I really need for that is the fact that I am speaking words into a device, which are transcribing those words into text on a screen, which will soon be published into the ether or a server, and later read by others a world away.
By training, I am an engineer. Now, there is a difference between a scientist and an engineer. And that difference is that one is pragmatic, and can care less about the underlying "truth" whatever that may be, so long as it works. This means that scientific theories are for an engineer useful models and tools. Their value comes from their usefulness, not from their truth. An engineer is never attached to one tool or model, since their only value to an engineer comes from whether they work and are useful, NOT from whether they're true. As such, an engineer is very skeptical about extrapolation.

The advances you speak of above, are all the advances of engineering, not science. Engineering creates and develops technology, which scientists then proceed to use for their own purpose, to test hypotheses. The advances of Galileo for example were preceded by more accurate telescopes. Of course back in the day the scientist was an engineer was a philosopher, etc. But nowadays, I think engineers, not scientists are driving the progress forward. Scientists imo have the wrong mindset when it comes to the theories they use. They're trying to get at some mystical truth, which is impossible.

does science exist outside the human mind. I posit it does, I suspect you think otherwise. But how could we possibly prove either?
Well, see, this question sort of presupposes that there is an "inside" and an "outside". If you make that presupposition even unconsciously, you're left with the problem of establishing a connection between the "inside" and the "outside". Naive realists think that the "inside" is like a more or less correct copy of the "outside". However, this is foolish, since we have no reason to believe it in the first place. In fact, there is no possible way to establish that connection, because whatever would connect the two needs to be both inside the mind, and outside the mind at one and the same time.

The most coherent framework that starts from this mind-external distinction is Schopenhauer's, who happens to be the last systematic philosopher of the West, before Heidegger and Wittgenstein came along to burn up the entire framework. Schopenhauer rightly argues that if some things are inside the mind (such as colors), and we only ever have access to our minds, it makes no sense to argue for an "outside". In fact, space, time and causality themselves are no different than colors. They are just as much "in the mind". The only difference is that they are more permanent than colors. Hence we "represent" the underlying reality, whatever it is, through space, time and causality. The latter three are just the means through which our mind represents reality. Outside of our representation, there is no space, no time, no causality (and of course, no colors, etc.). There is another way to think about this. Evolution is not aimed at truth. It's aimed at survival. So if our minds were created with survival in mind, our mental models of representation are what we need to survive, NOT what we need to know the truth. The cockroach sees a brown thing and goes to hump it. Because in his mental model it's a steamy hot female.

Now despite the appearances, I'm not a follower of Schopenhauer, and the reason why is because I think that hard distinction between inside the mind and outside the mind is incoherent and unnecessary. In fact, if we look at what we mean by "inside the mind" when we say that colors are inside the mind for example, we simply mean that someone else could look at the same object, and see a different color. Meaning that certain features of reality are relative to the observer. No distinction between mind and outside mind is required.

And so I don't think that science "exists outside the human mind". I think science is an activity that people are involved in, a communal activity.

But how could we possibly prove either?
We cannot "prove" anything. Any proof makes reference to a different element of reality to account for the one to be proved. And hence there never is any foundation.

But let's look deeper. What do we mean by proof in the first place? If I ask you to prove to me that x=+/-2 in the equation 2xˆ2 - 8 = 0, what do I mean? Don't I just mean that I want you to follow a procedure, the procedure of doing the calculation, and then getting the same answer that I (and others) do? So a math proof is like a chess proof, where you have to prove you can mate your opponent in 3 from a given position. It implies that you and the others accept the same rules, and hence get the same result. Non-acceptance of the rules would give different results.

So we're hypnotized by language when we think "proof" is a sort of foundational getting at the rock bottom truth of things. It isn't.

And when do we need "proof"?

Only in specific situations where we're learning things. Learning how to obey rules, more specifically.

You don't need proof that the ground will not fall below you to go outside of your home for a walk. If you do need proof, then we say that you have some mental issues, because that's not how "going outside" is done. Proof is not needed in that context.

So what is certainty?

The notion, in its traditional use, is incoherent. Because nothing could ever be certain. Certainty describes the ideal (and impossible) state when the map fits the territory perfectly. But that is impossible. Since the map must itself be included in the territory that it is to describe in order to be complete. So the part (the map) must contain the whole (the territory, which includes the map), which is a contradiction.

The territory IS the map. Reality IS the truth. There is no "truth" in the mind. Truth is always out here. Remember what Jesus said, "I am the Truth".
 
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Primeperiwinkle

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“Modernist assumptions that verifiable knowledge is the ultimate path to truth have overlooked the fact that mystery and beauty are at the core of knowing.”
Art + Faith by Makoto Fujimura.

Old fish swims by two little fish and says “How’s the water today guys?”
Little fish look at each other and ask “WTF is water?”

Utilitarianism is the water.

I should know. I systematically went through many religions asking “Does the stuff these ppl tout really work for me?” In other words, is it useful? Well, every religion is useful for something.

You might want to start asking “Is it beautiful?” There are very few philosophies on earth that regard you as beautiful instead of judging you by your usefulness.

I invite you to check out books like Shopwork as Soul Craft by Matthew Crawford, Zen and the Art of Motorycyle Maintenance by Pirsig, or The Ethics of Beauty by Timothy Patsis( more copies available in March) which might help you get a different idea of what I mean.
 

claudek

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I agree with this as long we aren't saying the laws of physics and the laws of the universe are the same thing.

This is in keeping with this quote from St. Augustine, "Miracles are not contrary to nature, but only contrary to what we know about nature."

The laws of physics get broken often enough. Often by physicists looking to gain a deeper understanding of the laws of the universe. It's really cool stuff.

Does dark matter exist or are we just fooling ourselves? Is quantum teleportation travelling information faster than the speed of light? Does time actually become distance inside a black hole? Giant particles really exist in the two places at once?

Why do the two biggest theories in physics, both of which have made verifiable predictions many times over, not seem to agree on the basic question of whether the universe is deterministic or probabilistic?

To suggest it is both is illogical. And yet, here we are. To the best of anyone's ability, both appear true at the same time.

It's a superposition of theories. (Superposition is a much nicer, more "sciencey" way of saying illogical).

Is something that breaks the laws of logic, but is also true, considered a miracle? Asking for a friend...

There's a reason why new agey types feel bolstered by quantum discoveries. Dig into it and science had gotten way way more weird than some guy saying his friend visited him in a dream and lives on another planet. People have been having similarly familiar "dreams" for millennia.

And you know, what if the mystical is inherently a personal communication such that it cannot be experienced the same way by two people? Shoot, light is a particle and a wave, or not, depending on how we're watching, so it's not like there isn't precedent. What if it also is just governed by rules that we don't fully understand yet?

Not only do we humans have a limited capacity to measure, to understand, but we are trapped by our own biases and beliefs on top of that.

Science is weird and can't reveal everything, yet. Religion is weird and can't reveal everything, yet.

Truth is elusive.

Yet so many act like they have the monopoly. It's a conundrum. Socrates was right.

You are; therefore you think; both of these statements are miraculous.

As a Christian, I think the existence of miracles is self evident. We have this thing called life. Consciousness. No one can explain how it happens to everyone's satisfaction, but it is so ubiquitous the science types just take for granted that it must not be a miracle.

I am saddened to imagine a world where everything can be explained by man's understanding of science. What a dull and finite place that would be.

Just the fact that the laws of physics or the universe exist seems pretty miraculous to me.

I'll close with a couple more Augustinisms:

"What then is time? If no one asks me, I know what it is. If I wish to explain it to him who asks, I do not know."

"Faith is to believe what you do not yet see; the reward for this faith is to see what you believe."

"Pray as though everything depended on God. Work as though everything depended on you."
That's amazing.

Thanks for sharing.
 

ruzara5

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I am reading Autobiography of a Yogi.

I'd love to get some feedback about the book.

The author talks about miracles all throughout the book.

It sounds like a scam to me. I get offended, irritated, while listening to it.

I have posted something in another thread talking about the Self Realization Center that this guy founded in LA.

I have been there and the guided meditation (free) I have participated in once has been one of the most powerful experiences I have ever had.

At the same time, I cannot believe these miracles he talks about in the book.

I would love to believe in them because life would be much better.

What do you think about it?

We are talking about things that science cannot explain.

PS
My wish is that once I accept the book, I will be able to perform miracles as well.
What do you think about it? - Miracles. They happen. Like the invisible hand. Guiding. That sudden great amount of strength. Spiritual resonance.
 

VentureVoyager

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I don't care about this book, author etc, but I'm pretty sure that the supernatural exists, and that there's way more than only the material world.

I've witnessed many things that can't be explained, and I wasn't the only person witnessing them (both my parents, my ex etc...it was funny with my dad, as he always had been super sceptical and would laugh at me and my mom, giving nonsense explanations - and then few years later...well, he was in shock).

And I'm saying this as a down to earth person, not a woo woo cults follower and a hippie hipster.
The thing is, all it takes is to experience it once in your life (things such as heavy objects moving by themselves in your house etc), and then it changes your mindset forever.
So... everything's possible.
 

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Kevin88660

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I am reading Autobiography of a Yogi.

I'd love to get some feedback about the book.

The author talks about miracles all throughout the book.

It sounds like a scam to me. I get offended, irritated, while listening to it.

I have posted something in another thread talking about the Self Realization Center that this guy founded in LA.

I have been there and the guided meditation (free) I have participated in once has been one of the most powerful experiences I have ever had.

At the same time, I cannot believe these miracles he talks about in the book.

I would love to believe in them because life would be much better.

What do you think about it?

We are talking about things that science cannot explain.

PS
My wish is that once I accept the book, I will be able to perform miracles as well.
It is widely accepted (in my place and culture) as a wisdom that being a giver and get involved in charity brings back good business luck and can boost your wealth.

There are even different tiers of “wealth karma” for different levels of charitable acts. Spending money and shouting to the whole world with the explicit aim of wealth karma, gives you a lower roi, than doing it discreetly with a mindset that does not strongly seek something in return.

If you encountered problems in your life and business it is a wake up call for giving more donations.

Over the years I just see more and more evidence for this belief than against it.
 

VentureVoyager

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Bali
If you encountered problems in your life and business it is a wake up call for giving more donations.
It is interesting because Joe Vitale writes about exactly the same thing in his book, and since I started helping here and there I have also seen a BIG boost to my business. I simply just wanted to help anonymously because the idea of kids with eye cancer and no funds for treatment bothers me too much.
And now only donate half of what I used to because one of my bank accounts got shut and then I forgot about it and now my business is not doing too well haha.

Maybe that's a big stretch, but certainly an interesting idea.
 
Last edited:

loop101

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