Can i copy an idea that will be on Kickstarter but not yet on the market ?

[Iammelissamoore]

I was only searching on IG for inspiration in the fitness industry as it's a massive market, i don't use my time to stole other people ideas.
TBH i just had the idea by searching things on IG Fitness account, then i thought that it was a cool idea and saw that someone was starting the project on google/fcb but don't do massive actions about it...

I would prefer to come up with my own idea for sure.

A lot of times when a business isn't "seemingly" doing much about a business - within the public space of social media - doesn't necessarily mean they aren't doing anything. As you would obviously recognise by now, business isn't only showing a completed product/service on social media; there is a lot of background work which goes into creating the ideal product/service to attend to the needs of a market, lots of testing, trial and error, improvements etc.

Now, given that this person's product is an empty copy of a copy of a copy of a copy screams loudly enough why you shouldn't be willing to just jump at being another copy. If indeed the original product/service is something you have used personally and believe there are improvements to be made to it then go ahead and make it better.

We live in a world of abundance and we all know that for every brilliant idea, there are hundreds, if not thousands of people thinking about that same brilliant idea, the issue is that a whole lot of people aren't willing to execute it. For every product/service that has been perfected (whether it is an original idea, or an existing invention that is reintroduced to the market with better qualities) success follows, because it is created with genuine intentions of making people's life better. There are legal practises businesses can take to protect themselves where necessary and as businesspeople, we respect the fact that when we place something out there, there is always the ability of it being perfected by our companies or others, of course it is better when we are the ones continuously perfecting it due to the constant feedback from our marketplace of which we must always be in tune with - Act, Assess, Adjust.

 

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[minivanman]

In this case he could have ethics, don't try it and make a for sure $0. So like I said, the bank won't take your ethics and deposit them for you. Or, screw the ethics and give it a shot.... If it was a thought on my mind I'm going for it. Odds are, 1 of them will never make it anyway... or both. People 'steal' stuff from others all the time in business. It's the way it works. You personally may not like it but that's the way the world turns. I don't think I've ever 'stolen' an idea but if I get the chance I would if I liked it.

Now if any of you are thinking about my conscience..... I love to treat people great (give people extra money all the time) but I was born without a conscience. Nothing lingers in my life.... including dry humor people

 

[ALC]

Okay OP, I've got an idea for you to riff on this product if you really want to without straight out copying it.

Smaller market, but passionate people and affluent generally speaking.

Swimmers.

I was actually trying to dream up a device like this recently that would help me focus on my core, on dryland, to get my freaking legs up.

You see, I'm a runner historically. My legs are dense. So when I swim they sink like stones which slows me down. I've been swimming for almost 8 years now and still have drag issues so clearly just swimming isn't helping. If you can put together a product that's swim specific dryland work to help me improve my body position I'd buy it. If you could also make it couple up with a dryland swim workout style machine like the vasa trainer at a more competitive price, I'd be interested in that too.

Your sales copy can include case studies about how swimmers/triathletes used it over X months and improved their average 100m swim time by Y.

Is it one of your need of everyone need ? Is there already some product which can help you for this or maybe they're too expensive ?

These VASA Trainer are expensive to build and need a specific technology, but it look like it's got a kind of Rowing Machine system/cabling (like the one we got in the Rowing machine), i do think the price is right for these machine, like the Panatta's in the gym, it's expensive but it's quality.
Have you tried to see at a deposit sales if they got one ? I'll try to.

 

[ALC]

Can you improve it in any way? Then it would be the same as improving an existing product. And you could possibly still beat him to market.

I need to think about a different support and the underside, something less cheap.
And yes, probably.

 

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[ALC]

These guys will only make it in English and not in french, if i create one and make a presentation in french i could provide value for the french fitness market.
But finally, anyone can copy it if they want to and find the right thing to modify.

 

[biophase]

Were you going to make an app too?

The plank pad has been done, but I bet that app uses an iPhone gyrometer to make you tilt and move it. We do that with a bosu ball right now.

I doubt you were going to do that part.

 

[ThirtyOne]

Is it legal? Yeah. Is it ethical? That's a question for you to answer.

Its not really legal, in the sense that if the inventor patents the invention within a year from it being shown by himself on the market, he can come after that kid for all that kid made...especially if he can prove he invented it before the kid under cut him. That's a little simple, but that's the gist of it.

The Chinese get away with it because they don't play by our patent rules. There's no way to enforce your monopoly as the rights holder.

 

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[ALC]

Were you going to make an app too?

The plank pad has been done, but I bet that app uses an iPhone gyrometer to make you tilt and move it. We do that with a bosu ball right now.

I doubt you were going to do that part.

Yes this is the principle, like every game available on the appstore, i would just recommend using this or this apps to use for exercise.
I'm not like Howard Panes and his Stealth apps.

 

[ALC]

Its not really legal, in the sense that if the inventor patents the invention within a year from it being shown by himself on the market, he can come after that kid for all that kid made...especially if he can prove he invented it before the kid under cut him. That's a little simple, but that's the gist of it.

The Chinese get away with it because they don't play by our patent rules. There's no way to enforce your monopoly as the rights holder.

That's what i'm afraid of, because if he has put a patents in the USA, that patent is also available for Europe.
The only way to switch that in my favor is to change the underside rotation system, if i change that it would work.

 

[AgainstAllOdds]

Its not really legal, in the sense that if the inventor patents the invention within a year from it being shown by himself on the market, he can come after that kid for all that kid made...especially if he can prove he invented it before the kid under cut him. That's a little simple, but that's the gist of it.

The Chinese get away with it because they don't play by our patent rules. There's no way to enforce your monopoly as the rights holder.

Not true at all.

We have a first to file system. First to file and first to invent - Wikipedia

Who invented the product is completely irrelevant in your scenario. Who was first to file for patent is what's relevant to determining legality.

That's why you shouldn't launch a proprietary kickstarter without a provisional patent. And if you have a product that doesn't need a patent, then you have to weigh the benefit of Kickstarter vs the influx of added competition.

Completely legal. Scummy too. But legal.

 

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[LPPC]

A thread very related to your question can be found here.

There you can also see the opinion of many members of this forum on this matter and some awesome advice.

 

[Laughingman21]

Hi everyone,

As the title is telling, i saw a guy developping a new product for the fitness industry, that no one as thought about before, but that product is not yet on kickstarter or any website, he just has done promotionnal videos of it.

What i'm asking you is, as the product is not out there yet, do i risk anything by copying it and put it on the market if he don't ?

I was also and mostly thinking about the fact that he could have protect the idea...any thought about this ?

Btw, i'm talking about taking actions while he seems to not take any.

Thanks for taking the time,
Alessio.

Ethically, I think what you’re suggesting is wrong and the fact you have to ask the question suggests you already know this.

But ignoring the ethics of your question and looking at the real world, I think a big risk you’re taking on that you may not recover from is damage to your reputation. In a world where social media is king and social proof sells, you’re very likely to get the reputation of being the guy that stole the idea. As starting up a company is tough at the best of times, starting with this noose around your neck seems like an unnecessary burden.

Then once you are selling, you’ve also got to ask yourself what type of customer is going to be choosing your brand over the original? Probably those with lower ethics which means you could end up with more returns, claims for damaged/ undelivered goods, etc. Basically, all the customers most people would try to avoid.

 

[MidwestLandlord]

Thanks for reminding me why I don't share ideas with anyone.

 

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[ZF Lee]

Thanks for reminding me why I don't share ideas with anyone.

While I try to share what I think would be valuable with others, I'm F*cking tired of seeing people snitch on you and cheat you.
Especially the Chinese folks....horrible.

I don't understand why the Chinese are still preferred for their low cost manufacturing. I heard lots of bad reports on their shitty intellectual property protection and copyright infringements....something which might not be that serious for you people in the US. I suppose there's always a catch in everything lol.

The other day I just heard of a Chinese partner-to-be walk out of the roundtable discussions after presentations and everything even though the others had put in so much work to make the deal go right.
He must have been only there to spy lol.

And apparently where I come from, there was a scary case on a truck delivering products stopped by hired goons of a competitor pretending to be law enforcement agents. The goons ordered the staff to get out of the vehicle and then drove off with the goods like terrorists taking people hostage.

I'm feeling very, very heated with the bullshit Chinese copycats (mind you, copycats are everywhere, not just in Asia, but the Chinese are more infamous)....I'm wondering how much I can give for some potential meetups I am going to go for. Clearly not everyone has care for ethics and integrity as we do here in TFLF

That being said, the only time I would have a kickstarter would be when I already have sales and decent legal protection ready to steamroll those copycats lol. Thankfully things are still small to not need such a route yet.

 

[ALC]

Thanks for reminding me why I don't share ideas with anyone.

Don't ever share your ideas/project, and i was asking this also to copy his products and make it better, but then as i said, i saw that this product was already a copy from the original one, made by Howard Panes.
It was only to market something better.

 

[trace987]

I've noticed that there are a lot of similar or same product campaigns on Kickstarter and it is bad for all the companies who did it. I think it isn't reasonable to copy something if you exactly don't know the next steps of the person/company who is engaging in this product. Maybe as you've mentioned he is prepared to launch his product somewhere so you will look weird, copying it. Also why no one noticed about the patent? It could also be a risk for you if it is already a proprietary product.

 

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[ALC]

I've noticed that there are a lot of similar or same product campaigns on Kickstarter and it is bad for all the companies who did it. I think it isn't reasonable to copy something if you exactly don't know the next steps of the person/company who is engaging in this product. Maybe as you've mentioned he is prepared to launch his product somewhere so you will look weird, copying it. Also why no one noticed about the patent? It could also be a risk for you if it is already a proprietary product.

I stopped everything because there is a patent and i can't see any other way to make the product different (still trying).
But this topic helped me because it shows that it can be done if you want it, but it depend on you if you should do it or not (ethic).

 

[David Young]

Have you though about offering your services to the inventor? They might well need something to help with the marketing/ business / distribution etc.

 

[ALC]

Have you though about offering your services to the inventor? They might well need something to help with the marketing/ business / distribution etc.

Well, Howard Panes, the inventor, sold his e-cigarette company for 1.X.X Millions years ago and is the inventor (with his friend) of the ABS ROLLER/WHEEL, so he's really rich. For the marketing, he has already contacted a media company and everything is good for him, he got the money to pay a team to do the marketing.

And even if i ask him if i can market his product here, the commission i would take VS the profit he make...it's not worth it. (even if it add value to the french fitness world).
I would have prefered to be the creator!

 

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[ThirtyOne]

Not true at all.

We have a first to file system. First to file and first to invent - Wikipedia

Who invented the product is completely irrelevant in your scenario. Who was first to file for patent is what's relevant to determining legality.

Actually, it's partly true. For most practical purposes though, you hit it on the head with the "first to file" principle.

I had recently read an example of "Experimental Exception" where basically the first to invent rule still applies under the current system. In a nutshell, that means that if you were to invent something that needed to be tested (for example, a new sun-damage proof car paint); there's no practical way for you to NOT disclose it publicly, since your car will have to sit out in the sun in public view. Done in good faith, the following rule applies from patent attorneys David Pressman's and Thomas Tuytschaevers', Patent it Yourself:

"If an inventor (or someone who obtained details of the invention from the inventor) uses or disclose the invention publicly, then the inventor has up to one year to file a valid patent application on the invention."

Where I was clearly wrong was in saying, take it "to market" versus "disclosing publicly". Your rule is much better to follow.

As they say, "the best way to get the right answer on the internet is not to ask a question; it's to post the wrong answer."

So I appreciate your correction to my error.

That's why you shouldn't launch a proprietary kickstarter without a provisional patent. And if you have a product that doesn't need a patent, then you have to weigh the benefit of Kickstarter vs the influx of added competition.

True. PPA will give you time to test the Kickstarter market. And it's pretty cost effective.

 

[sparechange]

Not educated in patents but do they even do much? Afaik mark Cuban a billionaire many times over was dealing with the hover board patent problem I think, saw some article he was owed money or whatever

 

[AgainstAllOdds]

Not educated in patents but do they even do much? Afaik mark Cuban a billionaire many times over was dealing with the hover board patent problem I think, saw some article he was owed money or whatever

Yea.

Patents and copyrights are the reason business models like licensing exist. It's why the entire pharma industry as well as countless others exist. It's why a lot of innovation rightfully gets pushed forward. It's why Mr. Wonderful on Shark Tank only invests in businesses with a patent.

The problem with patents is that people take advantage of what should be a fair system. They patent things that should not be patentable, with no intention of ever licensing or using the patent, and then sue everyone that has something similar. That's what Mark Cuban is against, and why his solution is to get rid of patents altogether.

But yeah, they do do that much, and often times do too much (when a patent that should never have been given is enforced).

 

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[ALC]

I think a patent is very useful, practical but must be removed quicker if the depositor don't act on his idea.
Like for myself i've paid two patents, one for a project for a Coffee Shop (really not sure about this idea and still trying to find something else but god it's hard to change industry) or for a clothing brand that i am working on.

 

[SYK]

The problem with patents is that people take advantage of what should be a fair system

The other problem is you have to have the money to defend a patent. Without it, it becomes hard to defend it meaningfully.

Good thing is, if you're not cashed up, you can take out IP insurance that gives you a war chest to defend your patent if anyone infringes.

 

[sparechange]

I think a patent is very useful, practical but must be removed quicker if the depositor don't act on his idea.
Like for myself i've paid two patents, one for a project for a Coffee Shop (really not sure about this idea and still trying to find something else but god it's hard to change industry) or for a clothing brand that i am working on.

Not sure how u go from cofee to clothing but stick with a single idea.

 

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[ALC]

Not sure how u go from cofee to clothing but stick with a single idea.

The Coffee Shop side is a skill i already master and the clothing side is an idea i had that i always wanted to develop, i don't want to live with regrets so i'm doing this. And i'm not gonna stick with a single idea if both can be done (even if everyone is telling the opposite).

But keep in mind that i'm also on the forum to learn where people have been fortunate to create something fastlane, the coffee shop is a thing i told myself that i could do, but the rentability is weak, the scalability is weak (a lot of competitors very talented) and the entry is very low.

I've only started the clothing business because it's way cheaper to start, but i'm still looking for an other industry where i can do something with a higher entry. (didn't find it yet)

 

[sparechange]

The Coffee Shop side is a skill i already master and the clothing side is an idea i had that i always wanted to develop, i don't want to live with regrets so i'm doing this. And i'm not gonna stick with a single idea if both can be done (even if everyone is telling the opposite).

But keep in mind that i'm also on the forum to learn where people have been fortunate to create something fastlane, the coffee shop is a thing i told myself that i could do, but the rentability is weak, the scalability is weak (a lot of competitors very talented) and the entry is very low.

I've only started the clothing business because it's way cheaper to start, but i'm still looking for an other industry where i can do something with a higher entry. (didn't find it yet)

Here's an idea since you like coffe so much, how about creating a special thermos relating to an interest or niche. Back when I had an office job working political phone sales lots of people had they're own thermos, imagine you had some design relating to that. I saw this coffee cup that had a middle finger on the bottom so you could talk to someone, drink the coffee and you flip them off, something funny or silly I'm sure could sell. Even a coffee cup with trumps face on it saying make America great again can spark huge controversy and net some sales

 

[ALC]

Here's an idea since you like coffe so much, how about creating a special thermos relating to an interest or niche. Back when I had an office job working political phone sales lots of people had they're own thermos, imagine you had some design relating to that. I saw this coffee cup that had a middle finger on the bottom so you could talk to someone, drink the coffee and you flip them off, something funny or silly I'm sure could sell. Even a coffee cup with trumps face on it saying make America great again can spark huge controversy and net some sales

Developping Thermos is definitly not a good idea, as everyone can do it on a customization website for few bucks with any design.
And someone already did a real thermos with temperature stabilization, he can adjust at any moment the temperature of his thermos, that's awesome and he even have a deal with Starbucks who are selling his product.

It may work, but i definitly don't think it would.
BUT, be a manufacturer of these product could be fastlane but this is not a first business but a second or third (need a lot of down payment and experience).

 

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[B. Cole]

I know this is a mute point now, but if you felt strongly enough about someone else’s idea that you were willing to steal it, perhaps you could have offered to be part of getting the thing on the market instead. He could have been out of money, time or both, and possibly interested if you’re the right enthusiastic person. Sounds a little fairy tail and rainbows, but he might have appreciated the help, and you both end up winning. Remember, provide value. We all build on those before us, but damn being a straight up thief.

 

[ALC]

I know this is a mute point now, but if you felt strongly enough about someone else’s idea that you were willing to steal it, perhaps you could have offered to be part of getting the thing on the market instead. He could have been out of money, time or both, and possibly interested if you’re the right enthusiastic person. Sounds a little fairy tail and rainbows, but he might have appreciated the help, and you both end up winning. Remember, provide value. We all build on those before us, but damn being a straight up thief.

The threat was created before i saw that a copycat "war" was already out there.
I've linked the products just before.

The product is not on the french market yet, but there patents everywhere and to this day i don't see how i can switch anything to be accepted.
The original product has been created by a multi millionaire, he's a fitness coach and creator of a big E-Cig brand, he sold this company for hundreds of millions, he already knew the potential of such an idea, he secured every goddamn part of the creation and anything related to it.

I'm not saying that i've dropped the project, it's just not possible for the moment, i can't find how i can produce something different.

For me ethic is something i value too, but the patent's owner is american, i'm French..so by the time he will think about us here in Europe, 5 years would have passed.