Book discussion: Die With Zero by Bill Perkins

[biophase]

Summary?

Advocates Sidewalker lifestyle?

No quite the opposite, the gist of it is that we often over save and die with too much money left.

For example, let's say that some person died with $500,000 in the bank. And to keep this simple, let's just assume that he didn't invest any money at all, so it was 100% earned. Let's assume that this person made $100/hour, so it would have taken him 5000 hours of work, or 2.5 years to make this money.

Looking at it this way, this person wasted 2.5 years of his life at a job for no reason because he never got to spend that money. In this very general example, this person could have worked 1.5 years and spent 1 year spending all that money he made the previous 1.5 years and ended up in the same place.

The book also talks about age appropriate vacations. Savers and responsible people would never quit their job at 25 and backpack the world for a year. But when you are 50 and have the money and time to do it, you probably don't want to backpack any more.

If you want to climb Kilimanjaro, do it when you are 30 not 70. But $5,000 might be alot to you at age 30, but at age 70, $5,000 could be meaningless to you. You could be writing checks to charity for double that amount monthly.

The guy is saying that you should be optimizing your life for happiness (through experiences) versus optimizing for saving the most money.

He also uses the term memory dividend. A memory of some extraordinary happy event or experience will pay you back in happy memory dividends every time you and your friends talk about it. This dividend is infinite and cannot be measured in ROI. "Dude ate a whole bowl of udon noodles!"

It says that the average age that someone gets an inheritance is 60 years old. That's because the average age of people dying is 80, and their kids are around 60. He says, you should give your kids your money when they need it the most. When they are 20, 30 or 40. But most wealthy people don't do this because they don't want to "spoil" their kids. I mean if they are responsible adults, what good would that really do them? Hopefully by the time your kids are 60 they don't need a huge influx of money.

I'm only halfway through it. But pretty interesting to me.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

No quite the opposite, the gist of it is that we often over save and die with too much money left.

For example, let's say that some person died with $500,000 in the bank. And to keep this simple, let's just assume that he didn't invest any money at all, so it was 100% earned. Let's assume that this person made $100/hour, so it would have taken him 5000 hours of work, or 2.5 years to make this money.

Looking at it this way, this person wasted 2.5 years of his life at a job for no reason because he never got to spend that money. In this very general example, this person could have worked 1.5 years and spent 1 year spending all that money he made the previous 1.5 years and ended up in the same place.

The book also talks about age appropriate vacations. Savers and responsible people would never quit their job at 25 and backpack the world for a year. But when you are 50 and have the money and time to do it, you probably don't want to backpack any more.

If you want to climb Kilimanjaro, do it when you are 30 not 70. But $5,000 might be alot to you at age 30, but at age 70, $5,000 could be meaningless to you. You could be writing checks to charity for double that amount monthly.

The guy is saying that you should be optimizing your life for happiness (through experiences) versus optimizing for saving the most money.

He also uses the term memory dividend. A memory of some extraordinary happy event or experience will pay you back in happy memory dividends every time you and your friends talk about it. This dividend is infinite and cannot be measured in ROI. "Dude ate a whole bowl of udon noodles!"

It says that the average age that someone gets an inheritance is 60 years old. That's because the average age of people dying is 80, and their kids are around 60. He says, you should give your kids your money when they need it the most. When they are 20, 30 or 40. But most wealthy people don't do this because they don't want to "spoil" their kids. I mean if they are responsible adults, what good would that really do them? Hopefully by the time your kids are 60 they don't need a huge influx of money.

I'm only halfway through it. But pretty interesting to me.

Nice, might have to pick it up.

Sounds like it takes a very "mortal" approach and accepts that we're all going to die -- a fact that it is easy to forget, especially when the media pushes "Save $100 a month and you'll be rich in 50 years!" bullshit.

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

I'm going to reiterate my recommendation for this book.

There are some things I don't expressly agree with it, but that doesn't mean I can't recommend it.

I noticed this book has helped relieve me of some of my own financial handcuffs that I had at 30, that are no longer necessary in in my 50's and the final third of my life. From buying a huge house that basically is a resort, to courtside seats to a basketball game, to spending obscene amounts of money on things that bring value to my life (like first-class plane tickets no matter the cost, or even privately) I no longer exhibit any kind of anxiety for high-dollar things that create convenience and memorable life experience.

I won't die with zero.

But I don't plan on dying having not lived, and having been cursed by strict budgets and Excel spreadsheets.

Do you guys recommend the paper version or audible?

I'd think either would work.

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

How about this? Instead of eating garbage or processed food your whole life, vow to eat for longevity. So when you are older, you can still spend your money and not be resigned to a wheelchair?

But eating right for a quality of life is foreign in the USA.

Instead we feed people junk to grow revenues and profits in the entertainment and medical industrial complex.

People fear Covid and wear a mask, but they don't fear the extra 200 lbs they're carrying and the greasy bacon cheeseburger they're stuffing their face with. Diabetes is nearly normalized.

I'd almost make the argument that growing up rich is a "disadvantage" over growing up poor.

I'd agree.

Most rich kids I know on the periphery of my life are losers funded by mommy and daddy with egos the size of Everest. The have no motivation to improve themselves because whenever they feel a void, they go shopping, or flaunt another ego enhancing product. They're rich on the outside, but on the inside, they are broke.

If my parents gave me unlimited cash, I don't think I would like how my life would turn out.

 

[biophase]

So I just finished the book and I'd give it a B+. The reason is because once you get the gist of it, the rest is pretty much the same. The main points are given in the few half of the book. What I got out of the book mainly is:

When you die with money left over, don't think of the amount as money, but think of how much time it took you to earn that money. Then you will equate money leftover with wasted life energy. When you think about it that way, you will question "why" am I making this money.

On a side note, have any of you watched Bling Empire on Netflix? It's about a bunch of kids of rich Chinese billionaires living in LA. My thought while watching is, if you are the child of someone that have multiple billions, what is your motivation in your life. Imagine that you know that you will inherit a billion dollars around age 40-60. Would you be motivated to start a business? Even if you made $100M at age 40, it would seem insignificant to your inheritance. No wonder they just spend money all day long. This book made me watch that series in a different light.

 

[biophase]

I'm halfway through this book, but I find it very interesting. I'm definitely not a spender, but I'm not a saver either. Reading this book made me think that I'm a little too tilted towards the saving side considering my age and net worth.

Anyone else here read it yet?

Die with Zero: Getting All You Can from Your Money and Your Life: Perkins, Bill: 9780358099765: Amazon.com: Books

 

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[biophase]

I get the argument, but it assumes that the purpose of money is to spend it. I am not sure it is "it". My grandfather worked his whole life and spare every dime to protect his kids should something happen when he'd disappear.

And it's a good thing that he did. If/when I make it into the fastlane, I'd like to do the same.

"Leave your kids enough money so that they can do anything, but not enough so that they do nothing."

The book talks a lot about this. It’s take is that leaving a chunk of money to your kids when you pass is not beneficial. This is because they usually get it at age 60 when they either don’t need it or can make much use of it.

The book talks about actively managing the money you want to give to your kids while their go from their 20s to 30s to 40s.

The book is talking about your money, not money you leave for your kids. It distinguishes the difference between the two and just asks you to plan it better than to just wait until you die.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

Im not yet in this class of people, but interesting topic to think about...

You should think about it because you're likely young and vibrant.

Having a membership to the best ski resort in the world doesn't mean as much when you're 55 and struggle to climb a flight of stairs, versus 35. Experiences are more available and heightened when you're young and money has more value. Money has less value as you age. Dying with millions equates to an incredible amount of memory and experiences left on the table.

 

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[biophase]

I had heard something similar previously. So I have already told my parents that I expect no money from them when they die. Either use it up (which is my preference), or leave it to the next generation below me where it will actually make a difference.

You should have your parents read the book, then they will either use it up or give the money to you tomorrow!

The fear with most people is running out of money during their lifetime. But even after the point where they know it’s impossible for them to do so, they still won’t spend it.

For example if you have $5M at 60, you may still have that fear. But with $10M at 70, you shouldn’t have that fear but still might.

So some point between 60 and 70 years old and $5m and $10m, the fear of running out of money should have gone away but it never does.

 

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[CareCPA]

It says that the average age that someone gets an inheritance is 60 years old. That's because the average age of people dying is 80, and their kids are around 60. He says, you should give your kids your money when they need it the most. When they are 20, 30 or 40. But most wealthy people don't do this because they don't want to "spoil" their kids. I mean if they are responsible adults, what good would that really do them? Hopefully by the time your kids are 60 they don't need a huge influx of money.

I had heard something similar previously. So I have already told my parents that I expect no money from them when they die. Either use it up (which is my preference), or leave it to the next generation below me where it will actually make a difference.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

Any more Lambos or supercars on the horizon?

I'm actually looking for a new car, but I think my ownership phase of supercars is over. The older I get, the less attention and drama I want. And these cars are nothing but drama. Nothing like having a 17 year old harassing me on the street for a drag race in his brand new Tesla bought by mommy and daddy.

 

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[doster.zach]

Im not yet in this class of people, but interesting topic to think about...

I think this book applies to everyone of all ages and class/wealth.

Perkins emphasizes the early 20s backpacking trips where you are willing to spend very little and travel across the world to gain many memories.

He also criticizes the idea of pinching pennies to put into your savings early in life, and focus on memories and becoming a better earner.

 

[fastlane_dad]

You mean your supercar phase? If so, what are your reasons? Attention? Time cost? Drama?

I still like them very much. But I get no pleasure from driving them. There's no excitement in going fast in a straight line for 3 seconds. I'd actually become one of those guys who would want them just to look at them. So right now, I don't have any garage space for any. But once I get a place with a 5-10 car garage I'll be getting some older classics.

But having said all that, it also would annoy me every time I pay a registration, insurance or maintenance bill for something that would just sit in the garage. Feels like a waste of money.

Agreed, I'd love to throw a new Lamborghini in my living room.

After cycling through a half dozen or so exotics I have also put a pause on it.

Especially when you focus on the 'dad' part of (fastlane_dad), it becomes nothing more than a sitting ornament in the garage. Paying registration, insurance, and potentially swallowing some depreciation costs doesn't help the case either.

Scottsdale has also gotten ridiculously busy, with worse and worse driving that I see on the roads daily. In order to properly enjoy a supercar, you really need to dedicate 1/2 day to it, and go north to get out of the congestion. That doesn't help the situation either.

I haven't fully ruled it out yet, and they might come back once kids are a bit older to enjoy them with me.

BUT -- I am beyond happy and thankful that I got to experience some of the coolest cars made on earth, at the time that I did.

By far some of the proudest moments of my fastlane journey.

 

[biophase]

I have struggled much with the principle outlined in the book saying that you should enjoy your money now instead of keeping it for "later" since you may not have any use for it later.

It relates to the question: should you do now what you want to do that you may not wish/be capable to do later, or should you do what you should do in order to enjoy the rest of your life doing what you want to do?

It relates to taking that backpacking trip when you are young and low on cash, instead of waiting to be rich at 50 but without any willingness to ride motorcycles in Thailand.

As such, the dilemma is the following:

Should you build a fastlane company at 19, retire at 27 and go live the rest of your life, or should you do whatever you want from 19 to 25 and live your "life experiences", then build a fastlane company, retire at 35 and do whatever you want with the rest of your life?

The idea is that the years 19-25 are special (much more special than the years 25-35), you will only live them once and so you should do what you'll only do at that age instead of building a fastlane company, which can be done at any age.

Why spending your youth doing something you could later instead of doing the things you'll only be able to do when you are young?

It's an enjoying the moment VS securing your future kinda question.

I think in your situation/example there isn't much difference between 19 to 25 or 27.

I'd argue that 19 to 35 is probably the same in terms of things that you can physically do.
Mentally I'd say 19 to 25 years old is mentally the same in terms of what they like and what gives them pleasure.

But overall, if you don't do something at 19, you can surely do it at 30. You can probably still do everything at 35 or 40 if you stay healthy. Look at Lebron or Tom Brady. But even with great health, there are things that you cannot or should not do as you get older. It is those things that you should weigh the risk reward on.

Realistically, if you become a multimillionaire at 30, you will not miss out on anything. You can still do anything that you want. Skydive, no problem, climb Everest, no problem.

 

[Deleted78083]

On a side note, have any of you watched Bling Empire on Netflix? It's about a bunch of kids of rich Chinese billionaires living in LA. My thought while watching is, if you are the child of someone that have multiple billions, what is your motivation in your life. Imagine that you know that you will inherit a billion dollars around age 40-60. Would you be motivated to start a business? Even if you made $100M at age 40, it would seem insignificant to your inheritance. No wonder they just spend money all day long. This book made me watch that series in a different light.

...and this is why 62% of billionaires are self-made.

I have often noticed how "rich" kids were much less able than poor kids. Poor kids must always come up with a creative solution to solve their problems, while rich kids pay their way out of an issue.

I'd almost make the argument that growing up rich is a "disadvantage" over growing up poor.

Richard Branson explains this well at the beginning of his autobiography.

 

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[biophase]

If my parents gave me unlimited cash, I don't think I would like how my life would turn out.

And this is the dilemma, because most parents work their whole life saving to give their money to their kids.

So knowing this, if you were a parent and chose not to give your kid alot of your cash, why do you continue to make money?

This is the question the book makes you ask.

 

[doster.zach]

Reading this book now, about a third-through it and I find it an interesting mix of Fastlane with a prioritization of TIME, FREEDOM, and EXPERIENCES NOW at 30, and not later at 65.

Actually loved the book.

Just not being on auto-pilot and making conscious decisions to make sure you are actually leading a fulfilling life.

Cutting both ways, stop doing things that don't really make you happy and aren't making you money (allowing you to have more experiences in the future).

Is it worth working overtime to make some extra cash if it means missing a family members big moment?

Are you really having fun playing video games 20 hours a weekend? Or are you just doing it because you're on auto pilot?

Thanks for the recommendation. : )

 

[biophase]

I'm actually looking for a new car, but I think my ownership phase of supercars is over. The older I get, the less attention and drama I want. And these cars are nothing but drama. Nothing like having a 17 year old harassing me on the street for a drag race in his brand new Tesla bought by mommy and daddy.

Me too. I'm driving a lifted 4runner now with big tires and it's amazing how many compliments I get on it by high school kids. Kind of surprising to me.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

Reading this book now, about a third-through it and I find it an interesting mix of Fastlane with a prioritization of TIME, FREEDOM, and EXPERIENCES NOW at 30, and not later at 65.

 

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[fastlane_dad]

I'm going to reiterate my recommendation for this book.

There are some things I don't expressly agree with it, but that doesn't mean I can't recommend it.

I noticed this book has helped relieve me of some of my own financial handcuffs that I had at 30, that are no longer necessary in in my 50's and the final third of my life. From buying a huge house that basically is a resort, to courtside seats to a basketball game, to spending obscene amounts of money on things that bring value to my life (like first-class plane tickets no matter the cost, or even privately) I no longer exhibit any kind of anxiety for high-dollar things that create convenience and memorable life experience.

I won't die with zero.

But I don't plan on dying having not lived, and having been cursed by strict budgets and Excel spreadsheets.



I'd think either would work.

I'm not sure to how much percent of the population this book applies with, but a lot of the concepts resonate well with me now as well.

Thinking about not putting in more hours towards purely 'making money' when you have enough, whether to leave money to kids (and how much), calculating life left and putting a value (and chances!) of having too much left over are definitely weighting on me much more heavily now then even a decade back.

To me initially it was a weird concept - because do people really need any extra 'push' to help spend money? But it's more so then that, almost part financial and life philosophy when I ponder it further.

The question that sticks with me is after you are dead and have money left over - how much effort and time was 'wasted' putting in work hours that you didn't have to, or could have been used more enjoyably or with more value all around (family memories, extra travel, less mental arithmetic, etc).

 

[daniel_m]

Very interesting stuff. This is the kind of book that needs to be recommended more often in these kind of communities, rather than the same books that regurgitate the same concepts over and over again.

It's good advice for people who are naturally savers or even entrepreneurs building their pot, but probably bad advice for the vast majority of people who are in debt/spend every paycheque already.

 

[biophase]

You mean your supercar phase? If so, what are your reasons? Attention? Time cost? Drama?

I still like them very much. But I get no pleasure from driving them. There's no excitement in going fast in a straight line for 3 seconds. I'd actually become one of those guys who would want them just to look at them. So right now, I don't have any garage space for any. But once I get a place with a 5-10 car garage I'll be getting some older classics.

But having said all that, it also would annoy me every time I pay a registration, insurance or maintenance bill for something that would just sit in the garage. Feels like a waste of money.

 

[classichouse]

...and this is why 62% of billionaires are self-made.

I have often noticed how "rich" kids were much less able than poor kids. Poor kids must always come up with a creative solution to solve their problems, while rich kids pay their way out of an issue.

I'd almost make the argument that growing up rich is a "disadvantage" over growing up poor.

Richard Branson explains this well at the beginning of his autobiography.

In all honesty, I don't think poor people are more talented. Whether someone becomes a billionaire is really a matter of chance. The basic requirement is, of course, a functioning business. But the question that arises is what can potentially become of a business, nobody starts a business thinking I want to become a billionaire.

That means an idea can become 20 million or 5 billion, you usually follow the path to the end. Now let's say you have the 20 million in your pocket, normally your motivation to start the trip again drops. Because let's be honest, doing a business is not exactly easy and you can very well spend your retirement age with five percent interest income per year on 20 million. Then there are other tasks that become more important, for example reach, power and influence OR just chilling out and pursuing hobbies, depending on your taste. Money in itself is not an end in itself.

The children of billionaires have a high probability of not living up to high expectations and will always live in the shadow of their parents, easy to pick on and make fun of, but for a weak ego it can be difficult in the big footsteps.

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

I still like them very much. But I get no pleasure from driving them

Agreed, I'd love to throw a new Lamborghini in my living room.

 

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[Fox]

After cycling through a half dozen or so exotics I have also put a pause on it.

Especially when you focus on the 'dad' part of (fastlane_dad), it becomes nothing more than a sitting ornament in the garage. Paying registration, insurance, and potentially swallowing some depreciation costs doesn't help the case either.

Scottsdale has also gotten ridiculously busy, with worse and worse driving that I see on the roads daily. In order to properly enjoy a supercar, you really need to dedicate 1/2 day to it, and go north to get out of the congestion. That doesn't help the situation either.

I haven't fully ruled it out yet, and they might come back once kids are a bit older to enjoy them with me.

BUT -- I am beyond happy and thankful that I got to experience some of the coolest cars made on earth, at the time that I did.

By far some of the proudest moments of my fastlane journey.

Love that car!

 

[BaiAnrui]

I'm halfway through this book, but I find it very interesting. I'm definitely not a spender, but I'm not a saver either. Reading this book made me think that I'm a little too tilted towards the saving side considering my age and net worth.

Anyone else here read it yet?

Die with Zero: Getting All You Can from Your Money and Your Life: Perkins, Bill: 9780358099765: Amazon.com: Books

Great book, am reading it for the second time now. Provides good insights into how to deal with money differently, and that it is about experiences. I found it very useful.

 

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[YanC]

That was a very good end of the year read. It definitely challenged some beliefs, especially about proactively defining what experiences you want to have in your life (and particularly WHEN), when to give money to your heirs (I had never thought about it this way) and being fine with spending money.

I feel much more time-conscious after reading it too. I'm not sure I'm ready to use this app that reminds you how long you have before you die every time you open a new tab in your web browser, but even if it feels a little bit uncomfortable at first, there is value in being aware of the finitude and brevity of (healthy) life.

I had posponed reading it for a little while as I thought it only applied to people who already have made their wealth and I was wrong. Whatever the stage of your journey you are at now, it is good to have these principles in mind, which by the way align very well with the fastlane ideas (getting wealthy relatively early from a business obviously leaves you with many more options regarding life experiences).

 

[Tiago]

So far I've been loving the book.

It's not mind-shattering, but more confirming of a few things I was already trying to implement.

For example, I've decided that for the next year I will only work four days/week. This will force me to be more selective and productive whenever I am working, and free up an extra day a week to learn sailing, which is something that's been on my mind for the past few years.

I'm also making decisions with my girlfriend to make long trips (3-6 months in another country) by the end of this year.

We want to do this before we have kids.

Bill also mentions the time bucket list. I've been creating that and it's been very insightful to understand which experiences make sense and when. For example, I can easily do a cruise on the fjords of Norway at 60, whereas my plan of learning to free dive makes more sense now, when I'm younger.

Thank you @biophase for the recommendation!

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

Summary?

Advocates Sidewalker lifestyle?

 

[csalvato]

No quite the opposite, the gist of it is that we often over save and die with too much money left.

For example, let's say that some person died with $500,000 in the bank. And to keep this simple, let's just assume that he didn't invest any money at all, so it was 100% earned. Let's assume that this person made $100/hour, so it would have taken him 5000 hours of work, or 2.5 years to make this money.

Looking at it this way, this person wasted 2.5 years of his life at a job for no reason because he never got to spend that money. In this very general example, this person could have worked 1.5 years and spent 1 year spending all that money he made the previous 1.5 years and ended up in the same place.

The book also talks about age appropriate vacations. Savers and responsible people would never quit their job at 25 and backpack the world for a year. But when you are 50 and have the money and time to do it, you probably don't want to backpack any more.

If you want to climb Kilimanjaro, do it when you are 30 not 70. But $5,000 might be alot to you at age 30, but at age 70, $5,000 could be meaningless to you. You could be writing checks to charity for double that amount monthly.

The guy is saying that you should be optimizing your life for happiness (through experiences) versus optimizing for saving the most money.

He also uses the term memory dividend. A memory of some extraordinary happy event or experience will pay you back in happy memory dividends every time you and your friends talk about it. This dividend is infinite and cannot be measured in ROI. "Dude ate a whole bowl of udon noodles!"

It says that the average age that someone gets an inheritance is 60 years old. That's because the average age of people dying is 80, and their kids are around 60. He says, you should give your kids your money when they need it the most. When they are 20, 30 or 40. But most wealthy people don't do this because they don't want to "spoil" their kids. I mean if they are responsible adults, what good would that really do them? Hopefully by the time your kids are 60 they don't need a huge influx of money.

I'm only halfway through it. But pretty interesting to me.

Sounds really interesting. Thank you for sharing