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Bitcoin / Cryptocurrency Discussion (And Predictions)

TinyTim

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Also the outdated argument is really strange. Is a hammer outdated technology
Nail guns have made hammers redundant for many people.

But this is also the tech space, which sees things move very quickly. Wouldn't be surprised if most of the top blockchains become outdated as new ones are developed.

However, BTC and ETH have a first-mover advantage in an industry built around community.
 
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Antifragile

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Nail guns have made hammers redundant for many people.

But this is also the tech space, which sees things move very quickly. Wouldn't be surprised if most of the top blockchains become outdated as new ones are developed.

However, BTC and ETH have a first-mover advantage in an industry built around community.
Maybe BTC can be used for security? Because you can’t amend the chain, there may be applications that we haven’t yet invented even on the antiquated BTC.

edit: and the hammer is not redundant as most DIY projects are still done with a hammer (at home). Nail guns are used by pros (generally speaking). The market for hammers is there in spades.
 
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Antifragile

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AceVentures

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Elon and Jack being strong supporters of BTC and pushing ETH away makes great sense for them.

Jack wants to rig BTC to Twitter. And Elon wants to sell you solar panels and a host of hardware.

That makes BTC good for them. But it's got nothing to do with whether that's good for YOU or your future.

Smart contracts scare the shit out of people. Of course moguls that amassed a fortune using the centralized model are afraid and confused by it. Jack doesn't want Twitter to become a self sovereign platform owned by the people. And Elon is a businessman that is earning his profit to build his vision of going to Mars.

BTC is just a useful payment rail, the way these guys see it. They get to remain central figures of power and sell you shovels for you to "HARVEST THE ENERGY OF THE SUN AND TURN IT INTO BTC". I said running PoW nodes are impractical and this will become more and more evident as hardware tech changes. The BTC security budget is flawed. And the whole thing rests on the premise of SoV. But the network doesn't see much usage. So why would you operate a node on a network like this?

Blockchain tech and smart contracts are about so much more than a simple payment rail or store of value. BTC is akin to a fractionalized NFT project.

Blockchains helped us deal with the double-spend problem. How node operators come to agreement with one another is an evolving part of the game. Proof of work was the first iteration. But consensus mechanisms are evolving and there are far more interesting, efficient and powerful consensus engines available today. The real beauty in what this technology enables is this:

Human beings can come to a unanimous consensus about the truth and everyone can keep a personal live record of what's happened. (Participate as a validator)

THATS the value prop. But BTC has an outdated consensus mechanism that doesn't sustain its existence in the long term. Buy all the orange coins you want - but these technological bottlenecks aren't going anywhere and infact becoming more and more obvious as time goes by.

Not butchering anyone's investment choices - and I may very well be wrong about the whole thing. But if you've got skin in this game you ought to be constantly educating yourself. Trusting Elon or Jack or Saylormoon won't be enough to protect your wealth when the tides change.
 

AceVentures

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Massive capital influx buying up shit tons of ASICS and running nodes. Elon producing a shit ton of batteries and solar panels to "mine bitcoin at home doing nothing - sponsored by CNBC".

This is an ape thing we're doing as humans - all the hardware, all the power, all the waste, is for ONE purpose: node operators to come to agreement with each other. And there are better ways of coming to consensus than each node racing to guess the hash function using more and more physical energy. This is nonsense if you understand there are superior consensus algorithms available today.

But yea, I'm sure Elons got my best interest at heart. When these guys start intelligently talking about smart contracts I'll listen - but for now I feel more educated on the topic than Elon so I trust myself more.
 

Antifragile

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Sometimes it’s easy to be too smart. Say you are right and Elon will pump up the price of BTC for no good reason, it still means a pump. Backing by such powerhouse means something, and while I am personally way more interested in ETH, I hold BTC because of these pumps. My exit will happen when I think the market has gone mad. When people / mass media start saying things like “it’ll always go up because it’s limited supply” or “this time it’s different”.
 
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AceVentures

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If your goal is to make money with the markets, you can trade just about anything and make money. Price go up or price go down you make money. This is how good traders make a fortune.

If you're a value investor that's building wealth for the digital future, then a 30% Elon pump on the orange coin doesn't mean shit. Even a 100% Elon candle wouldn't be worth a damn.

Example of why: I got into Axie Infinity when it was 1$. I even talked about it in this thread. AXS is now worth $70. That's in just a few months. Not all my horses performed this well, but what I'm saying is that blockchain tech is a F*cking winner bro. Software has been eating the world since the 90s, and now blockchain is eating software and everybody else's lunch.

But if you confuse blockchain technology and reduce it to what Elon and Jack think, namely some glorified bar of gold or a BTC tip button on twitter, you WILL miss out on the disruption that's happening.

Another example is if you think NFTs are about selling digital media. Don't wanna be a dick, but you won't be riding the next wave up if you don't take the time to educate yourself and understand the abstraction. This, I'm most certain of. It's an inevitable outcome.
 
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Antifragile

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90% effort into my business and I generate wealth. 10% play money into new tech, Crypro etc. Fun but not as important overall.
You may be right, but to do what you do (I’ve said it before) one needs to really do what you do - a lot of research and hard work!
My response was to highlight that you said BTC is basically useless junk, but with Elon and others it’s not and won’t be for quite some time (if ever).
 

Bones81

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Bought my fist alt coins today, small amounts of ADA, LINK, and DOT. Have slightly increased my positions in GBTC and ETHE. Prepared to act if we go parabolic again, but maintaining patience as we can continue to chop around for months or even go test the lows again.
 
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Frinys

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To me, BTC feels like a giant ponzi. I don't own any and don't intend to own any. I bought some when I first got into crypto - and 1 week later I sold it all for ETH. I've not bought any more since.

I love blockchain technology. But I believe BTC is outdated for it's intended purpose. It's ethos lives on, but not on the BTC ledger.

Everyone is rooting for BTC because of the narrative - and how it might be an easier battle towards adoption if we can just get people to understand one simple abstraction and call it BTC. Imo everyone also kind of deep down knows this BTC thing is a giant ponzi - but they're afraid of criticizing it because it's the granddaddy of crypto and if you say anything negative about it, well you'll get lynched by freedom fighters.

Imo this is not the true path forward. If we can, we should educate people. I learned about ETH and now I KNOW that BTC is an outdated technology. I don't encourage any of my own friends or family to buy BTC. If I encourage crypto to them, I start with ETH and get them to learn about smart-contracts. "Blockchain" is only part of the puzzle towards open and permissionless peer to peer networks. Having a compute engine that can process information against this ledger is infinitely more important, and BTC's engine is no bueno for what we want out of this technology.

The truth is the only thing that will live on. And BTC has both an unsustainable security budget and is impractical as a distributed ledger technology. It's also very difficult and operationally impractical to run your own node. The entire point of these networks is you have the freedom to participate and run your own node. It's properties are a lot more akin to a giant NFT project with 21M fractionalized tokens.

Please note - as a fractionalized NFT project with limited supply - it DOES have store of value properties. Just don't confuse that as the network being used for global settlement.

I can't do much with the BTC network, and I wouldn't want to do shit with it anyway. Web3 is what's in store for the future - and I don't know how anybody that has an ambitious vision for web3 can think BTC is what takes us there.

Go on - lynch me for what I've said.
PoS vs PoW
There is a strong narrative against PoW these days. Mostly because of its (seemingly) high energy and environmental impact, which has been further built upon by Ethereum's switch to PoS. PoS is better than PoW in many ways, but it is not a complete replacement.

PoW is highly dynamic. Much more than PoS. If miners quit somewhere in the world, due to politics or increased costs, the opportunity rises another place. PoS does not have this form of dynamic adaptability that PoW has. Over time, PoS will also tend towards centralization. Those with the most coins will get the most rewards. At a long-term time scale, this may be bad for the network.

The security provided by a PoW network with enough hash power (Bitcoin) is also way greater than a PoS network can ever provide. To control PoW, you need to constantly keep 51% of the network's hash power. To control PoS, you need to get 51% of all the coins once, and then you have control forever.

Don't get me wrong. PoS is great, but be careful dealing with absolutes. It is not as simple as saying that PoS is a successor of PoW because PoW has features PoS can never have.

In the end, all protocols are a tradeoff between decentralization, security, and energy use. A BFT-based protocol has very low energy use and high security but is not decentralized. PoW has high security is extremely decentralized but has a high energy use. PoS is more or less a middle ground between these two protocols. Why should only one remain? Just as there are use-cases for both private and public blockchains, there are use-cases for both PoS and PoW. Neither has to be written off.

Why Bitcoin will remain
Now that I've explained why both PoS and PoW will live on, we can focus on why Bitcoin will live.

Have you heard about the Internet Protocol (IP)? I think you have. It is the internet protocol, we all have our own IP address, and we all send internet packets to others IP addresses. The IP protocol, however, has a lot of flaws. It has a limited header space, we've already run out of addresses, and the protocol contains a lot of security flaws, like routing attacks, source address spoofing, and authentication attacks. Yet we all use the IP protocol. Why? Because it was the first protocol to be widely used.

We need a PoW network. The security is unmatched, and protocols like Proof of Transaction and Proof of Proof are coming to inherit that security. This basically means that with one PoW network, all other blockchains can inherit that one network's security. So, which PoW blockchain should be picked as the one to provide security? Simple. The first blockchain to be widely used, Bitcoin.

Ethereum is great, it provides a lot of use cases that Bitcoin doesn't. But Bitcoin is practically uncontrollable by a single entity, highly secure, adaptable, and its security can be inherited.

As a blockchain, Ethereum outperforms Bitcoin any day. That's a no-brainer and I think everyone knows that now. But looking past that, you'll see that the PoW protocol is so simple yet secure, that it's always going to be around. It can be any PoW network, but most likely, that PoW network will be Bitcoin.

You seem to do a lot of research on the Ethereum-family. That's great, and I think many learn a lot from your posts, me included. But when it comes to PoW vs PoS, it is much, much more nuanced than you make it seem in your posts.
 
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Frinys

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Maybe BTC can be used for security? Because you can’t amend the chain, there may be applications that we haven’t yet invented even on the antiquated BTC.

edit: and the hammer is not redundant as most DIY projects are still done with a hammer (at home). Nail guns are used by pros (generally speaking). The market for hammers is there in spades.
This is absolutely correct.

In fact, this is what Stacks does. Stacks' consensus mechanism is solely based on inheriting Bitcoin's security. Stacks miners send transactions on the Bitcoin network, and a verifiable random function selects one of these transactions. The owner of this transaction gets to create the next block on the Stacks blockchain.

And VeriBlock, a highly active project that almost no one has heard about, is taking Bitcoin security inheritance to the next level. They are building a set of tools so that any blockchain, existing or not, can inherit Bitcoin's security without using centralized solutions.

To inherit bitcoins security is a clever way to prevent 51% attacks, especially for lower-cap coins that must choose between either centralization or security inheritance to be secure. And it's already happening.
 

AceVentures

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PoW is highly dynamic. Much more than PoS. If miners quit somewhere in the world, due to politics or increased costs, the opportunity rises another place. PoS does not have this form of dynamic adaptability that PoW has. Over time, PoS will also tend towards centralization. Those with the most coins will get the most rewards. At a long-term time scale, this may be bad for the network.

PoW is not highly dynamic - case in point China bans mining, and all the mining rigs and equipment has to be literally shipped overseas. How is this dependence of a physical source of energy a dynamic aspect?

PoS can be run on a raspberry pi with a simple internet connection. How do you not view that as more dynamic?

Also, what you say about PoS staking is not true. The rewards are the same for every participant. If you have 1000 ETH, and the validator reward sits at 6% - you get the same 6% that the guy with 32 ETH would get.

The security provided by a PoW network with enough hash power (Bitcoin) is also way greater than a PoS network can ever provide. To control PoW, you need to constantly keep 51% of the network's hash power. To control PoS, you need to get 51% of all the coins once, and then you have control forever.

Also untrue - please take the time to look this up. It is more economically feasible to buy up hashpower in compute form to 51% attack than it is to buy up 51% supply of circulating supply. There is plenty of solid work done out there to illustrate and drive this point.

In the end, all protocols are a tradeoff between decentralization, security, and energy use. A BFT-based protocol has very low energy use and high security but is not decentralized. PoW has high security is extremely decentralized but has a high energy use. PoS is more or less a middle ground between these two protocols. Why should only one remain? Just as there are use-cases for both private and public blockchains, there are use-cases for both PoS and PoW. Neither has to be written off.

Not only one needs to remain - but BTC maxis assign all kinds of super powers to what BTC is when it's nothing more than a Store of Value. I'm taking the time to ensure people don't confuse blockchain technology, and how that enables all kinds of programmable economies - with the BTC ledger. That thing is an SOV and not the rails of the future digital economy.

Ethereum is great, it provides a lot of use cases that Bitcoin doesn't. But Bitcoin is practically uncontrollable by a single entity, highly secure, adaptable, and its security can be inherited.

Fewer than 2500 wallets control 40% of BTC.... How is that highly secure and decentralized? That’s far from perfection.

From Mark Cuban: "A couple whales playing wash sale bingo and it could be destabilized ? And they can create ??flation for a “currency” with limited distribution, that needs to be converted to fiat to be fully usable"

ETH literally has thousands of validators - people believe in that network so much that since December 2020 they have staked their tokens to validate this network. There are currently 200,000 validators on the ETH2.0 chain and it hasn't even gone live yet...

1629041117253.png

Because the ability to participate as network validators is based on capital and not a shit ton of hardware and operational upkeep - participating in the network as a node or delegating your tokens to a node becomes as easy as CLICK HERE. Compare that to farms of ASICS...
You seem to do a lot of research on the Ethereum-family. That's great, and I think many learn a lot from your posts, me included. But when it comes to PoW vs PoS, it is much, much more nuanced than you make it seem in your posts.

I do research on everything. I spend 12-16h days directly interacting with a multitude of projects, discussing with communities and developers, having open discussions on the legal front, writing my own software and code for analytics, and all of the above. If I harp on ETH it's not because it's the platform I know the most about - it's because I'm on the frontlines of creating the next-generation of applications, and it ain't BTC.

If you feel there is more nuance and I can't see it - please enlighten me.
 
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AceVentures

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And it doesn't have to be ETH or PoS that wins. Maybe it's the Proof of History that Solana uses or maybe it's some other next-level shit we haven't even seen yet.

But cryptography is what we're using - and the BTC chain for all of it's great things it's brought about - doesn't create a programmable economy that is accessible to everybody. It's a Store of Value.

With this space moving so fast - let's try to at a minimum recognize that a base-settlement layer for decentralized finance or marketplaces of social economies has a much larger market potential than a store of value we compare to the golds 10 trillion.
 

Frinys

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PoW is not highly dynamic - case in point China bans mining, and all the mining rigs and equipment has to be literally shipped overseas. How is this dependence of a physical source of energy a dynamic aspect?
Of course, the hashrate the hashrate takes time to return. But mining in America has seen a steep rise after the ban.
PoS can be run on a raspberry pi with a simple internet connection. How do you not view that as more dynamic?
The hardware requirements for PoS are low, but you can have a billion raspberry pis and still not be able to mine a fraction of an Ethereum. In Ethereums case, you need 32 ETH to run a node, and you lock away your funds for a period of time.

With PoW anyone can contribute with their own gaming rig if they want to. And as soon as the hashrate relative to price drops, PoW mining becomes profitable somewhere in the world.

Also, what you say about PoS staking is not true. The rewards are the same for every participant. If you have 1000 ETH, and the validator reward sits at 6% - you get the same 6% that the guy with 32 ETH would get.
If I own 1% of all staked ETH, and you own 51%, I'll receive 1% of the reward and you'll receive 51%.

Also untrue - please take the time to look this up. It is more economically feasible to buy up hashpower in compute form to 51% attack than it is to buy up 51% supply of circulating supply. There is plenty of solid work done out there to illustrate and drive this point.
This is to perform a single 51% attack. To control a chain, you need that 51% attack to keep going indefinitely. With PoS you buy 51% once and keep control forever.

Not only one needs to remain - but BTC maxis assign all kinds of super powers to what BTC is when it's nothing more than a Store of Value. I'm taking the time to ensure people don't confuse blockchain technology, and how that enables all kinds of programmable economies - with the BTC ledger. That thing is an SOV and not the rails of the future digital economy.
Maxis, whether Bitcoin or any other crypto maxis, are turning their eyes away from the rest of everything going on in the blockchain space. That doesn't mean that everything they say is wrong. Bitcoin is more than a store of value. It is a global, decentralized, secured network owned by no one, and its security can be inherited. That's definitely more than a store of value.
Fewer than 2500 wallets control 40% of BTC.... How is that highly secure and decentralized? That’s far from perfection.


From Mark Cuban: "A couple whales playing wash sale bingo and it could be destabilized ? And they can create ??flation for a “currency” with limited distribution, that needs to be converted to fiat to be fully usable"
It's far from perfection. No one with their mind right is claiming that Bitcoin is perfect. But, those wallets are not the end of Bitcoin. They may sell and destabilize the network for a while, but after that, they have no gunpowder and the network will continue as before.

If Bitcoin went PoS for some reason, these wallets could control a minimum of 40% of all voting power indefinitely. That's a much bigger impact.

ETH literally has thousands of validators - people believe in that network so much that since December 2020 they have staked their tokens to validate this network. There are currently 200,000 validators on the ETH2.0 chain and it hasn't even gone live yet...

View attachment 39477

Because the ability to participate as network validators is based on capital and not a shit ton of hardware and operational upkeep - participating in the network as a node or delegating your tokens to a node becomes as easy as CLICK HERE. Compare that to farms of ASICS...
ETH 2.0 is going to be great. I'm not saying that Eth 2.0 won't thrive, I'm saying that Bitcoin will stay. My biggest holding is in ETH, but I also see the value that a large PoW network provides.
I do research on everything. I spend 12-16h days directly interacting with a multitude of projects, discussing with communities and developers, having open discussions on the legal front, writing my own software and code for analytics, and all of the above. If I harp on ETH it's not because it's the platform I know the most about - it's because I'm on the frontlines of creating the next-generation of applications, and it ain't BTC.


If you feel there is more nuance and I can't see it - please enlighten me.
That's great. I've written my master's thesis about blockchain technology, I write smart contracts, and generally try to keep up to date with everything going on. We're both highly educated in this space, but that doesn't make us know-alls. People much smarter than us are building things on top of both Ethereum and Bitcoin. Why aren't they all building on top of Ethereum? Because Bitcoin has more to it than the common narrative will have it these days.

You may have chosen to go all-in on Ethereum, but that doesn't make Bitcoin a ponzi. There is more than one dimension to this discussion, and PoW is more than a predecessor of PoS.

I think this is one of the occasions where we have to agree to disagree. We both have our opinions, and only the future can tell which is right and wrong. What really matters is that people in this thread have enough information to make up their own minds on the topic.
 

AceVentures

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You can go ahead and place your bets on steam engine trains - but if I were betting on the future of trains I'd want to invest in magnetic rails.
The hardware requirements for PoS are low, but you can have a billion raspberry pis and still not be able to mine a fraction of an Ethereum. In Ethereums case, you need 32 ETH to run a node, and you lock away your funds for a period of time.

That's great. I've written my master's thesis about blockchain technology, I write smart contracts, and generally try to keep up to date with everything going on.

You can delegate ETH to other node operators. Can you do that with your ASICS?

If I own 1% of all staked ETH, and you own 51%, I'll receive 1% of the reward and you'll receive 51%.

This is a ridiculous statement. If you have more validator nodes, you get more rewards. How is that an unfair thing? It's the same for every network. You were insinuating that if you have MORE in a PoS system that you get some unfair advantage others don't and that's simply not true. Everybody is treated the same way. Of course if you have more nodes you get more rewards (same as any network btw), but you are rewarded at the same RATE as everybody else. There's no unfair design flaw.

This is to perform a single 51% attack. To control a chain, you need that 51% attack to keep going indefinitely. With PoS you buy 51% once and keep control forever.

These hypotheticals are not really useful for comparing PoS with PoW. You were talking about attacking a chain, and I pointed out that if someone was going to 51% attack a network it would be cheaper to do it with BTC than ETH.

If someone owns 51% of the network, what do they gain from wrecking the other 49%? Mathematically speaking they would have more to lose...

If Bitcoin went PoS for some reason, these wallets could control a minimum of 40% of all voting power indefinitely. That's a much bigger impact.

ETH is not a DAO - you don't use your ETH to vote. There ain't nothing to vote on... If you're curious to know how EIPs are implemented, take a look at how EIP1559 went thru - it wasn't some DAO vote.

People much smarter than us are building things on top of both Ethereum and Bitcoin. Why aren't they all building on top of Ethereum? Because Bitcoin has more to it than the common narrative will have it these days.

Feel free to put yourself in a camp of less intelligent people - but I'm not joining you there. And also, please feel free to point me to all the intelligent people that are building on top of BTC. Show me the developers, show me their GitHubs, show me what products they're shipping, show me how many users are touching these products, and show me if any of these products they're building are profitable with a growing user base.

ETH and ETH products are actually generating PROFIT for their holders. How does BTC and building on BTC bring in revenue for anybody?

1629123639151.png

I think this is one of the occasions where we have to agree to disagree. We both have our opinions, and only the future can tell which is right and wrong. What really matters is that people in this thread have enough information to make up their own minds on the topic.

We can agree to disagree but It's bullshit to put everything under the rug and think only the future will tell. No, today will tell you lots if you pay attention. And the decisions you make today define what happens to your future. So let's not just bet on the orange coin and "see what happens". Let's actually interrogate the assumptions and convince ourselves that if we go BTC, that we've buttoned up concerns and can confidently claim the due-dilligence is in place and the thing is promising.

Right now - the thing looks scammy, it doesn't look promising.
 
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AceVentures

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FYI none of what I've said applies to TRADING. I'm strictly speaking about investing. Feel free to trade poocoins if you wish - there's plenty of money to be made trading. But if our aim is to preserve and build wealth in the future digital economy, we ought to really ask ourselves if buying BTC today leads to the valhalla that is being promised.
 

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Curious about your opinion, how could smart contracts or NFT-s be used in travel industry?

You mentioned history-proof coins, for which I would guess that there are various x-proof coins out there, serving different objectives in different manners. Is there an easy way to explain philosophy behind different types of coins and what problems they solve?
 
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Antifragile

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I am so dense that I need help folks! How to make sense of the digital art and NFTs?
There was a time when programming a VCR's clock to stop blinking was for "kids" only and here we are now, I feel so f**ing old because I don't understand - what is the "value" of digital art?

This is coming from @AceVentures pointing to LYXe and it powers stuff like this:


I know enough about blockchain to seriously do some stupid stuff to myself. I get ETH and value of smart contracts. The NFT showing fractional ownership makes a lot of sense. I think it's revolutionary for asset ownership.

I need help understanding the digital side of it and why a platform like LUKSO can help create something truly valuable. Their advisors include

Dr. Berndt Hauptkorn​

CHANEL
President of Europe

Clearly luxury brands are part of it. I'll keep digging on my own as time permits and even started reading their white paper but I feel so dense for finding it hard to understand the vision.

Who can explain this to a 4 year old? :)
 

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Awesome. Thanks.
the analogy of a digital vs paper copy book made it clear.

I read 99% of my books now on Kindle. But I can’t gift a copy to anyone, do I really own it then? Of course not. But if I had an NFT book, I could gift it. Freaking awesome.
 
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You can go ahead and place your bets on steam engine trains - but if I were betting on the future of trains I'd want to invest in magnetic rails.
No, this is like placing bets on UDP vs TCP. Both will succeed, but they will do two vastly different things.
You can delegate ETH to other node operators. Can you do that with your ASICS?
Nope. But that doesn't render PoW useless.
This is a ridiculous statement. If you have more validator nodes, you get more rewards. How is that an unfair thing? It's the same for every network. You were insinuating that if you have MORE in a PoS system that you get some unfair advantage others don't and that's simply not true. Everybody is treated the same way. Of course if you have more nodes you get more rewards (same as any network btw), but you are rewarded at the same RATE as everybody else. There's no unfair design flaw.
Let me rephrase this once. If I own 51% of all coins in a PoS network and stake all those coins, I'm going to end up with 51% of the rewards. If I chose to stake the reward, I will own 51% of all coins forever, and no one can prevent me from it.
Assuming that all coins are staked. If not, I'll end up with > 51%.

These hypotheticals are not really useful for comparing PoS with PoW. You were talking about attacking a chain, and I pointed out that if someone was going to 51% attack a network it would be cheaper to do it with BTC than ETH.

If someone owns 51% of the network, what do they gain from wrecking the other 49%? Mathematically speaking they would have more to lose...
We're discussing controlling a chain, not a short-term attack. PoW is easier to attack but harder to control. A controller doesn't have to wreck the chain, more likely they will censor transactions by not including them on-chain.

ETH is not a DAO - you don't use your ETH to vote. There ain't nothing to vote on... If you're curious to know how EIPs are implemented, take a look at how EIP1559 went thru - it wasn't some DAO vote.
I'm not talking about DAOs and I'm not talking about Eth.

"If Bitcoin went PoS for some reason, these wallets could control a minimum of 40% of all voting power indefinitely.".

If the owners of 40% of all PoS Bitcoin chose to stake their coins, they would control 40% of the network. With PoW, those wallets do not have as much control of the network as in a PoS network.

Feel free to put yourself in a camp of less intelligent people - but I'm not joining you there. And also, please feel free to point me to all the intelligent people that are building on top of BTC. Show me the developers, show me their GitHubs, show me what products they're shipping, show me how many users are touching these products, and show me if any of these products they're building are profitable with a growing user base.
Stacks' Proof-of-Transaction, Komodo's delayed-Proof-of-Work, VeriBlock's Proof-of-Proof. Feel free to check them out yourself.

ETH and ETH products are actually generating PROFIT for their holders. How does BTC and building on BTC bring in revenue for anybody?
Eth is generating profit for their holders, so Proof of Work is obsolete? No, it doesn't work like that.

To answer your question: Stacks' are enabling smart contracts on an L1 secured by Bitcoin, and Komodo is earning money on their dPoW security protocol.

We can agree to disagree but It's bullshit to put everything under the rug and think only the future will tell. No, today will tell you lots if you pay attention. And the decisions you make today define what happens to your future. So let's not just bet on the orange coin and "see what happens". Let's actually interrogate the assumptions and convince ourselves that if we go BTC, that we've buttoned up concerns and can confidently claim the due-dilligence is in place and the thing is promising.
You are so sure you are right, that you're not even open to the fact that your opinion may be wrong. We can argue forever, but in the end, only the future can prove any of us right or wrong. It has nothing to "bet and see what happens".

Right now - the thing looks scammy, it doesn't look promising.
If you buy an orange and expect it to be an apple, of course, you feel scammed.
 

AceVentures

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@AceVentures
Curious about your opinion, how could smart contracts or NFT-s be used in travel industry?

You mentioned history-proof coins, for which I would guess that there are various x-proof coins out there, serving different objectives in different manners. Is there an easy way to explain philosophy behind different types of coins and what problems they solve?

Great question. At the moment, my thought process around enabling NFTs in existing businesses: I like to think about NFTs and blockchains as the abstraction layer that replaces the current CRM stacks.

If you're an Expedia type of platform - you can create direct relationships with each of your customers by subscribing each user into a unique smart contract onchain. You build your web or mobile apps the same way, but now your users can engage you with purchases directly. And you can airdrop them anything you want. So you have an "email list" that's at the same time a payment and communication channel.

Your marketing can now be done directly thru your public address list. You can also start enabling unique functionality for users on your app dependent on their public address behavior. You can airdrop them dynamic NFTs that can have unique functionality. Whatever triggers you have in your current marketing funnel, you could have tokenized. The big benefit being that you have a direct relationship with the customers and their payments and you have a transparent record of it all.

I don't know much about the travel industry but if you do, think about how this merchant-customer dynamic can be used to your advantage. Anything relating to ticketing, receipts, memberships, rewards, marketing is a good starting point.
 

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No, this is like placing bets on UDP vs TCP. Both will succeed, but they will do two vastly different things.

Not at all how BTC/ETH compare to these transfer protocols. But wtv.
Let me rephrase this once. If I own 51% of all coins in a PoS network and stake all those coins, I'm going to end up with 51% of the rewards. If I chose to stake the reward, I will own 51% of all coins forever, and no one can prevent me from it.
Assuming that all coins are staked. If not, I'll end up with > 51%

If you manage to buy 51% of a network, you own 51% of the network. Somehow that's unfair or dishonest.

If someone buys up 51% of the network and starts F*cking with it - you can just fork the damn thing and validate the new network. This is not a PoS vs PoW argument.

We're discussing controlling a chain, not a short-term attack. PoW is easier to attack but harder to control. A controller doesn't have to wreck the chain, more likely they will censor transactions by not including them on-chain.

Yes, and if we're talking about controlling a chain -recognize that ETH2.0 has 210,000 validators and the ease with which people can run a node makes the network more decentralized. You make these hypothetical assumptions that someone's gonna buy up 51% of the network and F*ck with it, when in reality what's unfolding infront of our eyes is the opposite - wealth is being distributed and node count is going up.

To answer your question: Stacks' are enabling smart contracts on an L1 secured by Bitcoin, and Komodo is earning money on their dPoW security protocol.

To catch up with Ethereum, now you just need:

SC (smart-contract) developpers
dApp users
Browser wallets
SC frameworks
UI frameworks
Test frameworks
Oracle networks
Indexing networks
Keeper networks
Block explorers
Tokens people want
NFTs people want
Liquidity for those tokens
Decentralized exchanges
NFT marketplaces
Centralized stablecoins
Decentralized stablecoins
Algorithmic stablecoins
Lending/borrowing markets
Margin trading
Yield aggregators
Synthetic assets
Options
Futures
Perpetuals
Prediction markets
No-loss lotteries
Self-paying loans
DEX IL insurance
SC insurance
Parametric insurance
Uncollateralized loans
Flash loans
Privacy mixers
Cross-chain messaging
Payment channels
Index tokens
Portfolio rebalancing

All these and more are also coming "soon" right?

Oh, I forgot to mention, having all of these is simply not enough I'm afraid. You can't just be on par with Ethereum's ecosystem, you need to be at least 10x better to overcome Ethereum's network effect and time-tested infrastructure.

You are so sure you are right, that you're not even open to the fact that your opinion may be wrong.

I asked you to show me where the money was coming from. You named a couple of projects. But the truth is, none of them shits are making any money. The BTC thing itself can barely sustain its security budget. Meanwhile BSC and AAVE have more demand and create more revenue than this orange thing and all of its SmartContracts combined.

THAT'S the key takeaway and how I can be so sure. Where's the money coming from bro? Show me the money! Until then, I'm not gonna rely on empty promises of the future.
 
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Last edited:

AceVentures

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I am so dense that I need help folks! How to make sense of the digital art and NFTs?
There was a time when programming a VCR's clock to stop blinking was for "kids" only and here we are now, I feel so f**ing old because I don't understand - what is the "value" of digital art?

This is coming from @AceVentures pointing to LYXe and it powers stuff like this:


I know enough about blockchain to seriously do some stupid stuff to myself. I get ETH and value of smart contracts. The NFT showing fractional ownership makes a lot of sense. I think it's revolutionary for asset ownership.

I need help understanding the digital side of it and why a platform like LUKSO can help create something truly valuable. Their advisors include

Dr. Berndt Hauptkorn​

CHANEL
President of Europe

Clearly luxury brands are part of it. I'll keep digging on my own as time permits and even started reading their white paper but I feel so dense for finding it hard to understand the vision.

Who can explain this to a 4 year old? :)

That's alright - don't hope to figure it out like a 4 year old. At some point it will be easy enough to convey to everybody - but today going the extra step to understand it provides you with insight others lack. This becomes your unique advantage in the market.

Keep digging thru the whitepaper - the answers are out there.

1629206395612.png

After you're thru with the whitepaper hmu and I'll direct you towards a community of folks that can further enlighten you.
 

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After you're thru with the whitepaper hmu and I'll direct you towards a community of folks that can further enlighten you.
Throw it down for the rest of us if you like. I will be honest, I have not looked into and know 0 about NFT's. However, this is all stuff that I will be spending a bit of time on learning one of these days.
 
D

Deleted70138

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If you're an Expedia type of platform - you can create direct relationships with each of your customers by subscribing each user into a unique smart contract onchain. You build your web or mobile apps the same way, but now your users can engage you with purchases directly. And you can airdrop them anything you want. So you have an "email list" that's at the same time a payment and communication channel.
Expedia is selling something, that is also sold by many other platforms (booking, cheapflights, opodo, etc), but I think blockchain will be revolutionary in niche sectors of travel, where products are super hard to sell on multiple channels, for example - 6 day speleology trip on July 22.
Could the "seat" of the trip be tokenized and sold as NFT, so tour operator does not have to set up selling platform, instead just tokenize their seats.

My intuition is that blockchain can give power to individual guides, instead of them relying on multinational platforms and travel agencies.
 
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Ocean Man

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Just saw a news article yesterday, a CEO in Korea has a startup which allows investors to buy fractional parts of real-estate in Korea. They supposedly use a private blockchain for the transaction history and such.

I hate the idea of what he’s doing, but interesting to see him using an aspect of blockchain.
 

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Just saw a news article yesterday, a CEO in Korea has a startup which allows investors to buy fractional parts of real-estate in Korea. They supposedly use a private blockchain for the transaction history and such.

I hate the idea of what he’s doing, but interesting to see him using an aspect of blockchain.
Do you have a link to the news article?
And what exactly do you hate about it?
Thanks!
 

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