Are your beliefs a matter of choice?

[Black_Dragon43]

Most people talk about their beliefs as if they are things that they will to be so. As if beliefs were just a matter of choice, and one could instantly simply choose to believe differently.

Personally I disagree with this view.

I think that while you can choose your reasoning, you cannot choose the conclusions (your beliefs). The conclusions always flow logically from your process of reasoning.

Think about it — can you choose to believe it’s night while outside it’s actually day? I don’t think so. To say otherwise would be to imply that there is no relationship at all between reality and your beliefs. Can you choose to believe that you are dead? And what use would your beliefs have if they have nothing to do with reality?

And emotions… they are just how you experience your beliefs. If you want, beliefs are the cognitive component of the conclusions of your reasoning, while emotions are the felt component of the very same process.

For example — say cold calling makes you afraid. The fear you experience is the same as your belief that cold calling could potentially have a bad/negative result for you. Some of you will say “But I KNOW there is nothing to be afraid of while cold calling, but I still feel afraid” — and that’s a LIE! You don’t know. That lie is the result of thinking that you get to choose what you believe… you don’t! In this case, the fear you experience is the result of the fact that you actually do believe that cold calling is potentially dangerous for you. And no matter how much you want to get rid of that belief, you cannot simply will it out of existence. Changing your beliefs is simply not a matter of willpower.
This is why I always say that it’s much harder to change your mindset than to change your actions. You can will your actions, but you can’t will your beliefs. You can force yourself to cold call, but you can’t will yourself not to be afraid of it.

And paradoxically by changing your actions, you’ll often change your mindset a lot more easily… because your reasoning process changes as you gain more experience and your reality changes.

This isn’t to say that you can’t just change your reasoning… you could, it’s just that this is a lot more difficult than just changing your behavior.

So to wrap it up, if you think that you can will or choose your beliefs, you’ll get stuck, and you won’t even understand why you’re stuck anymore. To get unstuck, you have to shift your focus from your sucky beliefs, to actions that are aligned with your goals. That’s the fastest way to change your reasoning process, and hence change its logical conclusions (your beliefs).

Feel free to discuss the topic as you wish and even disagree with me if you have different thoughts.

 

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[JJHemingway]

Most people talk about their beliefs as if they are things that they will to be so. As if beliefs were just a matter of choice, and one could instantly simply choose to believe differently.

Personally I disagree with this view.

I think that while you can choose your reasoning, you cannot choose the conclusions (your beliefs). The conclusions always flow logically from your process of reasoning.

Think about it — can you choose to believe it’s night while outside it’s actually day? I don’t think so. To say otherwise would be to imply that there is no relationship at all between reality and your beliefs. Can you choose to believe that you are dead? And what use would your beliefs have if they have nothing to do with reality?

And emotions… they are just how you experience your beliefs. If you want, beliefs are the cognitive component of the conclusions of your reasoning, while emotions are the felt component of the very same process.

For example — say cold calling makes you afraid. The fear you experience is the same as your belief that cold calling could potentially have a bad/negative result for you. Some of you will say “But I KNOW there is nothing to be afraid of while cold calling, but I still feel afraid” — and that’s a LIE! You don’t know. That lie is the result of thinking that you get to choose what you believe… you don’t! In this case, the fear you experience is the result of the fact that you actually do believe that cold calling is potentially dangerous for you. And no matter how much you want to get rid of that belief, you cannot simply will it out of existence. Changing your beliefs is simply not a matter of willpower.
This is why I always say that it’s much harder to change your mindset than to change your actions. You can will your actions, but you can’t will your beliefs. You can force yourself to cold call, but you can’t will yourself not to be afraid of it.

And paradoxically by changing your actions, you’ll often change your mindset a lot more easily… because your reasoning process changes as you gain more experience and your reality changes.

This isn’t to say that you can’t just change your reasoning… you could, it’s just that this is a lot more difficult than just changing your behavior.

So to wrap it up, if you think that you can will or choose your beliefs, you’ll get stuck, and you won’t even understand why you’re stuck anymore. To get unstuck, you have to shift your focus from your sucky beliefs, to actions that are aligned with your goals. That’s the fastest way to change your reasoning process, and hence change its logical conclusions (your beliefs).

Feel free to discuss the topic as you wish and even disagree with me if you have different thoughts.

I absolutely find this enlightening.

In my experience, I’ve attempted to change my beliefs on something. I would feel that Ive changed my beliefs, however, my actions would prove otherwise.

All mental masturbation looking at it in hindsight.

Thanks to your post, ill shift much focus directly committing actions that align the the beliefs I want to share consistently

 

[Kevin88660]

Most people talk about their beliefs as if they are things that they will to be so. As if beliefs were just a matter of choice, and one could instantly simply choose to believe differently.

Personally I disagree with this view.

I think that while you can choose your reasoning, you cannot choose the conclusions (your beliefs). The conclusions always flow logically from your process of reasoning.

Think about it — can you choose to believe it’s night while outside it’s actually day? I don’t think so. To say otherwise would be to imply that there is no relationship at all between reality and your beliefs. Can you choose to believe that you are dead? And what use would your beliefs have if they have nothing to do with reality?

And emotions… they are just how you experience your beliefs. If you want, beliefs are the cognitive component of the conclusions of your reasoning, while emotions are the felt component of the very same process.

For example — say cold calling makes you afraid. The fear you experience is the same as your belief that cold calling could potentially have a bad/negative result for you. Some of you will say “But I KNOW there is nothing to be afraid of while cold calling, but I still feel afraid” — and that’s a LIE! You don’t know. That lie is the result of thinking that you get to choose what you believe… you don’t! In this case, the fear you experience is the result of the fact that you actually do believe that cold calling is potentially dangerous for you. And no matter how much you want to get rid of that belief, you cannot simply will it out of existence. Changing your beliefs is simply not a matter of willpower.
This is why I always say that it’s much harder to change your mindset than to change your actions. You can will your actions, but you can’t will your beliefs. You can force yourself to cold call, but you can’t will yourself not to be afraid of it.

And paradoxically by changing your actions, you’ll often change your mindset a lot more easily… because your reasoning process changes as you gain more experience and your reality changes.

This isn’t to say that you can’t just change your reasoning… you could, it’s just that this is a lot more difficult than just changing your behavior.

So to wrap it up, if you think that you can will or choose your beliefs, you’ll get stuck, and you won’t even understand why you’re stuck anymore. To get unstuck, you have to shift your focus from your sucky beliefs, to actions that are aligned with your goals. That’s the fastest way to change your reasoning process, and hence change its logical conclusions (your beliefs).

Feel free to discuss the topic as you wish and even disagree with me if you have different thoughts.

I think the context of self-help is that you want to generate beliefs that help you achieve better outcomes, even if the beliefs might not be factually accurate.

I think you want to be long-term optimistic but short-term pessimistic.

Think about war and concentration camp/POW camp survivors, if they do not believe they they will make it alive, most likely they will lose the will to stay alive and as a result be dead.

But you also on a daily basis need to be objective and cannot fool yourself because one mistake will be deadly.

 

[Roli]

Most people talk about their beliefs as if they are things that they will to be so. As if beliefs were just a matter of choice, and one could instantly simply choose to believe differently.

Personally I disagree with this view.

I think that while you can choose your reasoning, you cannot choose the conclusions (your beliefs). The conclusions always flow logically from your process of reasoning.

Think about it — can you choose to believe it’s night while outside it’s actually day? I don’t think so. To say otherwise would be to imply that there is no relationship at all between reality and your beliefs. Can you choose to believe that you are dead? And what use would your beliefs have if they have nothing to do with reality?

And emotions… they are just how you experience your beliefs. If you want, beliefs are the cognitive component of the conclusions of your reasoning, while emotions are the felt component of the very same process.

For example — say cold calling makes you afraid. The fear you experience is the same as your belief that cold calling could potentially have a bad/negative result for you. Some of you will say “But I KNOW there is nothing to be afraid of while cold calling, but I still feel afraid” — and that’s a LIE! You don’t know. That lie is the result of thinking that you get to choose what you believe… you don’t! In this case, the fear you experience is the result of the fact that you actually do believe that cold calling is potentially dangerous for you. And no matter how much you want to get rid of that belief, you cannot simply will it out of existence. Changing your beliefs is simply not a matter of willpower.
This is why I always say that it’s much harder to change your mindset than to change your actions. You can will your actions, but you can’t will your beliefs. You can force yourself to cold call, but you can’t will yourself not to be afraid of it.

And paradoxically by changing your actions, you’ll often change your mindset a lot more easily… because your reasoning process changes as you gain more experience and your reality changes.

This isn’t to say that you can’t just change your reasoning… you could, it’s just that this is a lot more difficult than just changing your behavior.

So to wrap it up, if you think that you can will or choose your beliefs, you’ll get stuck, and you won’t even understand why you’re stuck anymore. To get unstuck, you have to shift your focus from your sucky beliefs, to actions that are aligned with your goals. That’s the fastest way to change your reasoning process, and hence change its logical conclusions (your beliefs).

Feel free to discuss the topic as you wish and even disagree with me if you have different thoughts.

I choose to believe I will be a successful author. I choose not to believe in god, even though I was brought up in a religious household.

I also choose to believe that Arsenal are the finest football team the world has ever seen.

'Beliefs' are placed around systems with no provable, objective truths. So I can't choose to believe it's night when it's day, because that is an undeniable fact that can be proved to me. whereas you can't show me objective proof to say I won't be successful, there is a god, or Arsenal aren't the best (okay, maybe the last one you could have a good go at!).

 

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[Antifragile]

Most people talk about their beliefs as if they are things that they will to be so. As if beliefs were just a matter of choice, and one could instantly simply choose to believe differently.

I believe that you decide what you believe in. In fact, it's the one thing that drives how we act. If I believe that only lucky people make it in business, then the minute I hit a snag, I quit - being proven that I am just not one of the "lucky few".

Since you used cold calling, I'll piggyback to that example. If you believe cold calling can harm you, it’s easy to change your mind. Fear can stay, but belief is like a light switch, you can change that in an instant. You sit next to someone who’s cold calling, you see they aren’t being harmed - boom, you have the power to change your belief. Simple, even if not easy.

I’m fact, confronting your fears is one way to crush limiting beliefs. It’s like going to a gym to grow your muscles. The more you do, the better.

And one way to do that is to think about your own mortality. We will all die. If your beliefs are holding you back form doing things you should be doing to better your life, think about death. Afraid of cold calls? You will die anyway, maybe get out of your comport zone while you still can!

Ironically, we agree on the conclusion you shared! That actions will create new beliefs. Where we differ is that I think one needs to believe before taking action and then solidify that belief. You are saying "what you believe it doesn't matter, just do". If you can do that - brilliant! Do what works for you. For me, I find if impossible to do things I don't believe in.

For example: @Roli thinks housing in is a right because no typical person can become successful enough to have housing. We differ. I believe EVERY single person out there has a way to become wealthy. Money has no limits. How do you expect @Roli to behave? I predict little success at best... limiting beliefs do that to our ability to act.

 

[BizyDad]

Most people talk about their beliefs as if they are things that they will to be so. As if beliefs were just a matter of choice, and one could instantly simply choose to believe differently.

Personally I disagree with this view.

I think that while you can choose your reasoning, you cannot choose the conclusions (your beliefs). The conclusions always flow logically from your process of reasoning.

Think about it — can you choose to believe it’s night while outside it’s actually day? I don’t think so. To say otherwise would be to imply that there is no relationship at all between reality and your beliefs. Can you choose to believe that you are dead? And what use would your beliefs have if they have nothing to do with reality?

And emotions… they are just how you experience your beliefs. If you want, beliefs are the cognitive component of the conclusions of your reasoning, while emotions are the felt component of the very same process.

For example — say cold calling makes you afraid. The fear you experience is the same as your belief that cold calling could potentially have a bad/negative result for you. Some of you will say “But I KNOW there is nothing to be afraid of while cold calling, but I still feel afraid” — and that’s a LIE! You don’t know. That lie is the result of thinking that you get to choose what you believe… you don’t! In this case, the fear you experience is the result of the fact that you actually do believe that cold calling is potentially dangerous for you. And no matter how much you want to get rid of that belief, you cannot simply will it out of existence. Changing your beliefs is simply not a matter of willpower.
This is why I always say that it’s much harder to change your mindset than to change your actions. You can will your actions, but you can’t will your beliefs. You can force yourself to cold call, but you can’t will yourself not to be afraid of it.

And paradoxically by changing your actions, you’ll often change your mindset a lot more easily… because your reasoning process changes as you gain more experience and your reality changes.

This isn’t to say that you can’t just change your reasoning… you could, it’s just that this is a lot more difficult than just changing your behavior.

So to wrap it up, if you think that you can will or choose your beliefs, you’ll get stuck, and you won’t even understand why you’re stuck anymore. To get unstuck, you have to shift your focus from your sucky beliefs, to actions that are aligned with your goals. That’s the fastest way to change your reasoning process, and hence change its logical conclusions (your beliefs).

Feel free to discuss the topic as you wish and even disagree with me if you have different thoughts.

I believe that you decide what you believe in. In fact, it's the one thing that drives how we act. If I believe that only lucky people make it in business, then the minute I hit a snag, I quit - being proven that I am just not one of the "lucky few".

Since you used cold calling, I'll piggyback to that example. If you believe cold calling can harm you, it’s easy to change your mind. Fear can stay, but belief is like a light switch, you can change that in an instant. You sit next to someone who’s cold calling, you see they aren’t being harmed - boom, you have the power to change your belief. Simple, even if not easy.

I’m fact, confronting your fears is one way to crush limiting beliefs. It’s like going to a gym to grow your muscles. The more you do, the better.

And one way to do that is to think about your own mortality. We will all die. If your beliefs are holding you back form doing things you should be doing to better your life, think about death. Afraid of cold calls? You will die anyway, maybe get out of your comport zone while you still can!

Ironically, we agree on the conclusion you shared! That actions will create new beliefs. Where we differ is that I think one needs to believe before taking action and then solidify that belief. You are saying "what you believe it doesn't matter, just do". If you can do that - brilliant! Do what works for you. For me, I find if impossible to do things I don't believe in.

For example: @Roli thinks housing in is a right because no typical person can become successful enough to have housing. We differ. I believe EVERY single person out there has a way to become wealthy. Money has no limits. How do you expect @Roli to behave? I predict little success at best... limiting beliefs do that to our ability to act.

I think there are elements of truth to both these views.

Seems a bit chicken and egg to me. Some should start their journey to change with "chicken", some with "egg", and both are important to the cycle of growth.

 

[The-J]

"What you think influences what you do, but possibly more importantly, what you do influences what you think. And you might say, well everybody knows that. Well I'll tell you, I didn't know it well enough early enough." - Charlie Munger, paraphrased

 

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[Black_Dragon43]

For example: @Roli thinks housing in is a right because no typical person can become successful enough to have housing. We differ. I believe EVERY single person out there has a way to become wealthy. Money has no limits. How do you expect @Roli to behave? I predict little success at best... limiting beliefs do that to our ability to act.

I agree that you have a natural tendency to act according to your beliefs. You need to exert effort and willpower not to.

I don’t know about you, but there were many times when I was under a huge weight and really believed that there was no way I’d lift it again, and surprised myself by lifting it.

Moments like that are moments when, by exerting willpower, you act against your beliefs. If you consider your beliefs to be breaks on a car, my method involves forgetting that the breaks are on and slamming that gas pedal.

Where we differ is that I think one needs to believe before taking action and then solidify that belief.

So how is one to change their belief before taking action? Is this just a matter of deciding differently? Or is it a matter of REASONING differently about it?

I think there are elements of truth to both these views.

Seems a bit chicken and egg to me. Some should start their journey to change with "chicken", some with "egg", and both are important to the cycle of growth.

Ever the politician… “Now we have heard enough about the tightrope walker; now let us see him too!”

 

[Antifragile]

So how is one to change their belief before taking action? Is this just a matter of deciding differently? Or is it a matter of REASONING differently about it?

You practice TM, right?

Did you notice the same effects as me? Meditation had a profound effect on my beliefs. Prior to, I used to rely on external sources to attempt to change my beliefs, read books, listened and attended seminars etc. What changed for me with TM is that I started looking inward more and more. Inside us there are unexplainable sources of answers, wisdom, energy, beliefs ... - happiness.

The more I looked into myself, the more I became comfortable with myself. I started seeing the world as it is, not the way I wanted it to be. It was like unlocking a box of "secrets" to life.

We both agree that the quality of our lives is directly proportionate to making good decisions (vs bad). Clear mind helps make good decisions. Meditation for me is like taking your mind and running it through a filter, take away the garbage and pure(er) thoughts remain. It's also many other things, but for beliefs to change, I think we need a clear mind.

You can't tell me that picking up a brick that makes calls is a rational fear / belief, it's only "real" as long as you allow yourself to feel it as real. Meaning, just as I allowed myself to feel that fear as real, I can do the same to make it go away.

What I am trying hard to articulate is that it is our attachment to things that makes it hard to change our beliefs. Find the way to remove that attachment and the belief is now free to form in any way YOU decide.

Full disclosure: I still have many limiting beliefs too, I still struggle with getting mind clarity, I am still attached to things that had been programmed into me since childhood etc. I do not claim that TM cured all my problems and now I am a living example of some sorts, not at all. But what I am saying is that with TM, I was able to let go of some stupid attachments, change many beliefs I held and in turn, my personal and financial situation went 10x and better from there. What I am saying is that I changed my beliefs first and acted second, reinforcing those beliefs with action. And that I do not know how to act contrary to my own beliefs. (So, no @BizyDad - I don't view it as a chicken and egg... doesn't make me right either...).

 

[BizyDad]

Ever the politician… “Now we have heard enough about the tightrope walker; now let us see him too!”

Oh how dull. Ok fine, I'll play...

"What is great in man is that he is a bridge and not an end"

But of course we are speaking of beginnings. You ask:

So how is one to change their belief before taking action?

And I would ask how is one to decide on which action to take? How can one possibly decide on an action if that decision is not somehow based on a belief. Do you suppose all actions derives from animal instinct? Surely not.

To which you can reply that belief came as a result experience. And that experience as a result of some actions. Thus you'd be right, by a certain perspective.

Yet that experience was viewed through the lens of beliefs imparted on kids from childhood.

And round and round we go. Chicken and egg. There is no definitive truth to be had here. This is a purely subjective discussion. The only thing that can be said with certainty is the best way for your to change your beliefs is to find the best way for you specifically to change your beliefs.

Some seek answers inwardly. Some seek answers externally. Some look up, some look down. Everyone convinced their way is best. Fine. Where things get dicey is when one asserts theirs is the only way.

Which both you and AF do ALL THE TIME.

Your journey will start whenever it starts.

Personally, I'd say navel gazing isn't the answer, but rather the impetus for your journey should be the divine. God. Is God internal to you or external? But I can't discuss such things on the forum and thus another tightrope laid before me...

Still, we are trapped in a chicken and egg conversation. God, TM, reading books, action taking, etc etc etc. What works for one does not work for another.

I'll throw one more idea at you guys. Time. Sometimes just allowing enough time is enough to change my belief. Because older me often thinks differently than younger me and older me will have his own perspective. And sometimes just sleeping on it is enough to change a belief. Nothing changed but the different perspective of a well rested mind.

In the end, the conversation should not be about the beginning or the impetus for the journey, but rather what matters is the journey itself and was it a life well lived.

You can choose to demean my contribution as a political one, I choose to point out the obvious. No one person has all the right answers, and you and AF make good points that will work for some people and not others.

In finality, I have a feeling 48 year old Black Dragon will be more of a politician in his heart than I ever have been. We often criticize in others the thing we like least in ourselves and all that.

 

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[Black_Dragon43]

Oh how dull. Ok fine, I'll play...

"What is great in man is that he is a bridge and not an end"

But of course we are speaking of beginnings.

“Bizydad is a rope tied between AF and BD — a rope over an abyss”

Let me try to stretch the rope and walk on it, without falling in the abyss and being swallowed by MJ…

And I would ask how is one to decide on which action to take? How can one possibly decide on an action if that decision is not somehow based on a belief

I would say that beliefs play an informative role when it comes to action, but not a causative one. What does it say…

“For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.”

The people who wrote this have always had a good understanding of the division between will and intellect. You can perceive something as being good, and yet still do evil (corruption of your will). On the other hand, the Greeks only knew of sins due to ignorance “all evil and base action is involuntary” — in other words they saw the will as driven by intellect. I disagree with this view.

I think that what drives action, the efficient cause of it, is the will (free choice), not belief. And the will CAN act contrary to your better judgement.

Which both you and AF do ALL THE TIME.

I know, that’s why we’re entertaining. We take a stand, even if we’re wrong. We stand up for something, thump our chests, jump into the ring and struggle against each other. I think that leads to stronger discussions, more insights for everyone involved, not less. If anything, I think there’s nothing as productive as this type of conflict, so long as it’s played by some rules.

Personally, I'd say navel gazing isn't the answer, but rather the impetus for your journey should be the divine. God. Is God internal to you or external?

I’d say both. Different than you, but “closer to you than you are to yourself”. I have had some great discussions recently with @Kak about faith, he has been guiding me via DMs. I have had some great insights as a result of it and some of the materials he has shared with me which have affected me positively, and I am very grateful for that. If you want to contribute too, I’m more than happy to start a DM conversation with you too.

You can choose to demean my contribution as a political one, I choose to point out the obvious. No one person has all the right answers, and you and AF make good points that will work for some people and not others.

Demean? I think of it more like stretching that rope so your contribution becomes as strong as it can be. Would you be better off if I let you be a limp rope such that when someone tries to walk over you they fall in the abyss, rather than a stretched, hardcore, strong rope that takes them from beast to the divine as you say?

Or perhaps you prefer the imagery of the bull and the matador… without the matador, the bull is… dull and boring. It is the matador that gets the bull to perform its best tricks.

In finality, I have a feeling 48 year old Black Dragon will be more of a politician in his heart than I ever have been.

Of course, with a mentor like you, I have no doubt about it.

 

[Panos Daras]

That was a decent take on beliefs, reasoning, and actions. There's a lot to agree with, but I disagree on some things.

1) Beliefs and Reasoning: Totally agree that our beliefs come from our reasoning. We analyze info and form beliefs. Simple as that.
BUT: Beliefs can change. They're not only the result of reasoning. Beliefs can shift due to social influences, emotional states, and even therapy.
2) Emotions as Indicators: Love this point. Emotions are like the dashboard lights for our beliefs.
Amazing example there: If you're scared of cold calling, you believe it's risky.
3) Role of Willpower: Here's where we part ways.
You say willpower can't change beliefs, but it can. Willpower drives us to take new actions, and those actions can change our beliefs over time. Willpower---> Action---> Success---> Change beliefs
4) Action Over Everything: You put a lot of weight on actions, which is great. Actions do speak louder than words.
BUT: there are other ways to change beliefs. For example, techniques like cognitive restructuring. This aims to change beliefs directly by challenging them through reasoning, without first changing behavior.
5) Cognitive Dissonance: We sometimes hold two conflicting beliefs and choose one because it feels better, not because it's more logical.
6) Subconscious biases: Even when we try to challenge our beliefs through reasoning, there are biases that can distort the reasoning process. For example overconfidence bias, and confirmation bias.

So to sum up: some good points but the picture is more complex.

 

[Kevin88660]

It is not so much about beliefs versus actions but rather having the “right” beliefs.

I agree with Black Dragon that real progress is driven by actions. But Black Dragon neglect that beliefs greatly help to drive actions.

Let us say you are not happy with how you look.

You believed that you are doomed because you are ugly. You gave up on any hope of having a good life. (Bad Belief).

You believe that look is not that important it is about bring value to others that make you have a successful and fulfilling life. You take action to build your business and help other people (Good Belief).

You believe that you have a natural disadvantage and hence you need to work harder on areas of life. As a result you build your business and worked very hard. (Good belief)

You believe that looks is important. Having bad looks is just a problem to be fixed. You went to do botox and did a few rounds of plastic surgery (just like Christiano Ronaldo and Elon Musk). You developed more confidence in the process of leadership and outward communication. (Good Belief).

Your own internal beliefs and rationalization play an important roles to drive actions.

But contrary to popular self-help opinions I don’t see that beliefs have to be “positive” or “abundant”. As long as they bring actions they are good for you.

Beliefs shape actions. Actions produce results.

 

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[Johnny boy]

The very idea of "changing" a belief is just a roundabout way of realizing your beliefs have changed themselves and you are aligning with it and assigning it a label.

If you "want" to change and didn't before, you already have a new belief. It is inside of the "want". The same for "willing" a change of belief. A belief change has already occurred. That is, if you suddenly "want" something new. If you have always wanted the same thing, you are just desiring a feeling and have not acquired it yet.

Many attempted "belief changes" are not beliefs, but desiring a feeling. Desiring a feeling is not a belief. Achieving a feeling is not a belief. It is acquiring a possession. Something you pursue.

The man afraid of cold calls wants to not be afraid. He believes he is objectively "wrong" for being afraid. He can "not understand" what there is to be afraid of. But his fear exists, whether he knows where it comes from or not. Just like he does not consciously produce adrenaline or make his pupils dilate, but it still happens. But knowing this, speaking logically to it, reminding himself that the fear is illogical, or even telling himself he is not afraid, can be so powerful that it can actually mitigate or completely erase the fear.

There is nothing wrong with the two-pronged approach: Mitigating negative effects of bad beliefs (which can actually erase them), and taking actions despite what you feel to be a suboptimal mental state. Practically that would look like the cold caller 1. Telling himself there is nothing to be afraid of and 2. Doing the calls anyways even when he would label how he feels as "fearful". It is a good option to do both because doing only number 1 causes paralysis where you think you must feel before you act. But only doing number 2 pretends that you are a robot, a perfect logic machine that makes decisions based on optimal results and nothing else. I have met many, many, many men who follow number 2 and pretend they make all their decisions logically, and when I observe them, it is laughable how truly emotional and human their actions and beliefs are, just with a thin veil on the surface. We are still all human. I don't pretend to be a robot. I know how much emotions and beliefs affect us, and how much surroundings affect us, and just how subjective our beliefs are, and just how much we blow along with the wind, as much as we pretend not to. I know that how I feel affects how I act. I try to change how I feel and put myself in a good state. But I also know that I must do what is necessary and act regardless.

I would attribute much of my efficacy towards the fact that I don't pretend to be more logical than I am, so I can address my irrationality instead of pretending. I try to do as little pretending as possible. That is because truthfully, I would rather succeed than protect my ego in a short term sense which happens when you virtue signal as being a perfect logic machine. But sometimes I do think..."would pretending I have perfect rationality actually encourage my rationality?" If I feel that it would, I would shed my current strategy and adopt a new one, one where I see myself as impervious to circumstance and emotions. I think this idea in of itself shows a willingness to mold myself into the version of me that would be the most successful. I would rather be what I need to be instead of maintaining what I am right now. It is another layer of self-honesty.

Backing out of this and looking at the big picture...think for a second about how silly it is to discus these things...beliefs...thoughts...opinions...fear...choice. Not pointless, but just ridiculous in a way...

This is because none of these things are real.

Think about the truth of it. The truth is you have eyes, ears, a body, a brain. Your brain is receiving signals, sending these signals to other parts of itself, and sending signals to the rest of your body. Theses words...beliefs, thoughts, opinions, fear and choice are just words. They are just concepts. Not even that, they are only just words. Words cannot exist outside of concepts, but concepts exist on a level above words....words given context in relation to other words to try to explain concepts. They are not even concepts. They are not truth. They aren't even truth once removed. They are truth twice removed. The reality of what we are trying to describe through concepts, and concepts we try to describe through words. Words that we all don't perfectly agree on. So the concepts are only an attempted translation. And the misunderstood concepts are loosely related to the truth of it. It's a game of telephone played from our physiology, to our mind, to our words, to your ears, to your understanding of the words, to the concepts in your head, to the physiology of your mind, changing mediums many times over. It is no wonder it is hard to agree on or understand these things. An exaggerated example is this: What does the color pink taste like? What if in another country, everything that was pink tasted like shit? Then that question would have different answers for different people.

Many times we don't even change our beliefs, we just change our priority of thoughts. If I hear something new, I might think my belief has been changed. I might have just just agreed to something already, and now understand it in a new context, and this new connection is now just a more conscious part of my thoughts. How many things can we really hold in our mind on a conscious level at any given time? Not very many. So many new thoughts are just raising a new set of thoughts and feelings to a higher level in the mind. This is why your surroundings can affect your mind so much. Our eyes and ears are receiving information, relaying it to the brain, and it raises new things from a lower level in our mind up to the forefront. This is why being more conscious and intentional has so many benefits. This is why being around winners has so many benefits. It brings more optimal things up into the forefront of our conscious thoughts. Your actions can change without an increase in your discipline in 'taking action despite how you feel'. Your actions can change without a change of belief. They can change just from a new set of already "agreed" beliefs just being raised to the front of your conscious mind that were already there in some way, just in the background and without any refinement.

Addressing your point directly, it makes sense that you should perform the logical actions that will progress you towards your stated goals even when not feeling like it. More than that, even when feeling like NOT doing it. "Stated goals" is important, because we all have underlying goals that drive behavior. Our goals are desires. The desire to be comfortable. The desire for pleasure. The desire for pain avoidance. These unstated goals we have evolved to have do not give us an optimal life, and following them entirely would make us homeless drug addicts...so we must become more conscious and intentional and create a stated set of goals that have been determined through logic, clarity, and intention, instead of the base level goals that come hardwired in us. That is what will keep us making the cold calls we know we need to make. Eating the salad and chicken breast we know we need to eat. Doing the workout we know we need to do. Etc.

 

[Roli]

For example: @Roli thinks housing in is a right because no typical person can become successful enough to have housing.

Lolz, you choose to believe that's my stance. Anyway, let's not open that can of worms again, we all know I'm wrong. Or at least believe I am. *wink emoji*

 

[nopalmer]

This isn’t to say that you can’t just change your reasoning… you could, it’s just that this is a lot more difficult than just changing your behavior.

I agree with this. Actually, it is a way to go because changing your reasoning (on a really deep level) is bordering impossible for most people. The best we can hope for is changing our behavior and putting a conscious effort into making a habit out of new patterns.

It seems to me that one's beliefs come as a result of many random and less random variables that affect us down the road. The way I see it, they are not a matter of choice.

 

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