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Are you an ENTP and wonder why you can't get things done when working for yourself?

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Bekit

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For a detailed account you can consult this resource :


Its great as it's very thorough and also starts with an extensive disclaimer against common misconceptions.
Thank you for sharing this link. Awesome resource!

It has taken me a while to get through it, and I still have more to read, but what I've read so far has been super helpful.

So it seems my stack is Ti-Ne-Si-Fe.

I'm curious if you or @Simon Angel have any tips on how to communicate effectively and live harmoniously with people whose stack is the opposite (e.g. Si-Fe-Ti-Ne or any combination where their S & F are Dominant or Auxiliary).
 

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Simon Angel

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I'm an INTJ-A. I'm wondering how many there are here.

If I had to take a guess, I would say quite a few. ENTJ, ENTP, INTJ, INTP are the most common (and well-equipped) types to see the big picture and ultimately succeed in business.

I really like INTJs, they're shadow types with ENTP due to the mirrored function stacks. Even though they are often stubborn and opinionated I'd say they tend to be strategical geniuses (great at planning, slower to take action, good at strategy games) while ENTPs tend to be tactical geniuses (great at improvizing, quick to take action, good at FPS/moba/mechanical games. It's a good partner match too.
 

Simon Angel

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Thank you for sharing this link. Awesome resource!

It has taken me a while to get through it, and I still have more to read, but what I've read so far has been super helpful.

So it seems my stack is Ti-Ne-Si-Fe.

I'm curious if you or @Simon Angel have any tips on how to communicate effectively and live harmoniously with people whose stack is the opposite (e.g. Si-Fe-Ti-Ne or any combination where their S & F are Dominant or Auxiliary).

Read up on what each of those functions values most. It's usually the exact opposite of what you do. For example:

Dominant/Auxiliary Ti: Seeks answers, rationalizes everything, comes to own conclusions after thoroughly weighing both sides. Questions authority. Usually appears arrogant due to trusting their own thoughts and opinions over those of the status quo.

Tertiary/Inferior Ti: Does things without stopping to question what, why or how, avoids rational explanations (trusts higher slot functions like Si or Fe), finds it difficult to form own conclusions and seeing and understanding things from both perspectives. If dom/aux Si, will always obey the rules and authority, will do things they way they think they should be done, or the way people think they should do them.
 

Bekit

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Read up on what each of those functions values most. It's usually the exact opposite of what you do. For example:

Dominant/Auxiliary Ti: Seeks answers, rationalizes everything, comes to own conclusions after thoroughly weighing both sides. Questions authority. Usually appears arrogant due to trusting their own thoughts and opinions over those of the status quo.

Tertiary/Inferior Ti: Does things without stopping to question what, why or how, avoids rational explanations (trusts higher slot functions like Si or Fe), finds it difficult to form own conclusions and seeing and understanding things from both perspectives. If dom/aux Si, will always obey the rules and authority, will do things they way they think they should be done, or the way people think they should do them.
I noticed.

And I happen to be married to one. :rofl: :eek::clench::inpain:

I can read and analyze to my heart's content, but at the end of the day, I'm not good at operating in the social/emotional stuff. So I was just curious if anyone had any tips or real-world experiences that you've found to be helpful when communicating with others.

I was discussing this topic with someone recently, and they made this comment:

"Here’s an interesting thing to keep in mind: In a 60 minute time frame, you’ll spend approximately 30 min in your dominant, 15 min in your aux, 9 min in your 3rd function and 6 min in your 4th function. So you start to tune out & feel restless in 6 minutes if somebody’s operating in your 4th function."

This is obviously an exaggeration, as no single hour is going to be that cut-and-dried.

But I did find it insightful to observe that I'll start to tune out in 6 minutes if somebody’s operating in my 4th function.

I've started to watch for this, and it seems to be true.

The flip side also seems to be true. If I'm communicating in my Dominant function, and it happens to be someone else's 4th function, THEY tune out really quick.

So I started to wonder how I could communicate in Si or Fe in order to keep their attention longer.

And it turns out I have absolutely no clue how to do that.

It seems like this might be a learnable skill, though. Kind of like learning a language. I'm not sure where to start, and my thinking about how to proceed is rudimentary at the moment.

But if I want to hold the attention of a Si or Fe, maybe I simply insert more sensory details into my conversation. Or I incorporate more emotion words.

Or I study the speech patterns of someone who is Si or Fe dominant and mimic their patterns.

It'll probably feel "fake" or "irrelevant" to me to communicate that way.

But---I know how it feels when I'm talking with another person whose dominant function is Thinking, and I'm like, "YESSSSS! FINALLY! Someone who THINKS!"

So I want to gain the skill of giving THEM that same feeling (even if it's a weak/lame version of it) when their stack is different than mine.

Example: Let's take the hubs.

ISFJ.

So he's Si-Fe-Ti-Ne

Same functions as in my stack, but different order.

He tunes out when I communicate. And I tune out when he communicates.

Awesome.

So what if I could strategically communicate using his preferential cognitive process? That's what I'm trying to figure out how to do.

Has anyone else experimented with this or gotten anywhere?
 

Simon Angel

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I noticed.

And I happen to be married to one. :rofl: :eek::clench::inpain:

I can read and analyze to my heart's content, but at the end of the day, I'm not good at operating in the social/emotional stuff. So I was just curious if anyone had any tips or real-world experiences that you've found to be helpful when communicating with others.

I was discussing this topic with someone recently, and they made this comment:

"Here’s an interesting thing to keep in mind: In a 60 minute time frame, you’ll spend approximately 30 min in your dominant, 15 min in your aux, 9 min in your 3rd function and 6 min in your 4th function. So you start to tune out & feel restless in 6 minutes if somebody’s operating in your 4th function."

This is obviously an exaggeration, as no single hour is going to be that cut-and-dried.

But I did find it insightful to observe that I'll start to tune out in 6 minutes if somebody’s operating in my 4th function.

I've started to watch for this, and it seems to be true.

The flip side also seems to be true. If I'm communicating in my Dominant function, and it happens to be someone else's 4th function, THEY tune out really quick.

So I started to wonder how I could communicate in Si or Fe in order to keep their attention longer.

And it turns out I have absolutely no clue how to do that.

It seems like this might be a learnable skill, though. Kind of like learning a language. I'm not sure where to start, and my thinking about how to proceed is rudimentary at the moment.

But if I want to hold the attention of a Si or Fe, maybe I simply insert more sensory details into my conversation. Or I incorporate more emotion words.

Or I study the speech patterns of someone who is Si or Fe dominant and mimic their patterns.

It'll probably feel "fake" or "irrelevant" to me to communicate that way.

But---I know how it feels when I'm talking with another person whose dominant function is Thinking, and I'm like, "YESSSSS! FINALLY! Someone who THINKS!"

So I want to gain the skill of giving THEM that same feeling (even if it's a weak/lame version of it) when their stack is different than mine.

Example: Let's take the hubs.

ISFJ.

So he's Si-Fe-Ti-Ne

Same functions as in my stack, but different order.

He tunes out when I communicate. And I tune out when he communicates.

Awesome.

So what if I could strategically communicate using his preferential cognitive process? That's what I'm trying to figure out how to do.

Has anyone else experimented with this or gotten anywhere?

You shouldn't be needing to communicate (at least verbally) in your tertiary and inferior functions in order to please anyone, even your partner. Are they communicating in Ti and Ne? Probably not. There's a balance currently just how it should be, why would you ruin that balance?

You will naturally become more like eachother over the years and you'll end up meeding in the middle at some point in terms of function development. Heck, I've been with my ESFJ girlfriend for a little over a year and we've grown so much (she's still terrible at using Ne and Ti, but she has her moments of revelation) and I still don't make my bed in the morning (unless we make the bed in the morning together), but I'm putting in the same effort to build my business every day, following a strict diet and workout regime (never had a problem with that though) and washing the dishes, sorting and folding my clothes in one designated location rather than throwing them everywhere in the apartment. I also cook for myself every day. These are all examples of Si, my inferior function (it's likely at least as strong as my tertiary at this point though, I've been working hard on it since I was 13).

In fact I've found out that my girl gets extremely turned on whenever she sees me cooking or doing the dishes. The other thing I found out is that I like doing the dishes. So it's been a win-win so far.

Which shows that you don't need to communicate (at least verbally) in said functions, but you can him that you're putting in effort to be more like them! You shouldn't expect the same in return, but it's very possible they'll try to engage you in your higher functions as well after they see you're doing this.
 

Primeperiwinkle

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This thread reminds me of when my best friends started talking about enneagram two years ago and it took me 14 months of ignoring them before I finally tackled the stupid tests because, let’s face it, if all your friends are fascinated by something you have to be too or just live with never participating in the conversation. Then I found out that my type is the most suspicious and reluctant of all types to take the enneagram test and that made me laugh. So here’s my contribution. I test as a 6w7.

On MBTI I’m an ENTJ but being a girl who can easily and methodically point out the flaws of the humans around her has never gotten me very far so I taught myself how to reverse it and just encourage ppl to do the positive side or I try to keep my mouth shut. That’s hard. Lol.

It’s highly amusing to me when other ENTJ’s point out ppls problems though.. then when they receive respect for doing so I’m in awe cuz I really want to point out stuff a lot but I don’t cuz it’s mean. I’m currently working on a project so I can get paid to point out issues and boss ppl around to help them. That’s fun.

Looking at memes that validate my feelings make me feel better if I’m having a rough day. Also, the idiosyncrasies of any type make me giggle because we are all so strange! These chicks on YouTube use hyperbole and humor to explain the types and almost all their videos are amusing. I like this thread. Simon, your insight into this subject is impressive. I’m glad you’re on the forum.

For your viewing pleasure...

View: https://youtu.be/iL-FP4qS_lo
 

active employ

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So what if I could strategically communicate using his preferential cognitive process? That's what I'm trying to figure out how to do.

Has anyone else experimented with this or gotten anywhere?

Here's something I used to do as a salesperson. I learned this not through psychology after learning a vocabulary of pathos ethos logos from Aristotle.

It boils down to speaking the language the person is seeking.
Not ''parroting'' not ''matching their frame of stance'' and not half of the garbage call centers think is vital to sales.

I might be half asleep in my chair, clipping my nails but the person on the phone feels understood.
They might even be ecstatic with the conversation, simply because I'm speaking their language.




Logos
I want to know does it work? How does it work? What are the details of making it work?

Get me as a customer, and I want details. I like the dull, dry nitty-gritty information.
Drape the timing chain over the cam sprocket and hold it in place with one hand while working the chain around the crank sprocket with your other hand.


Pathos
or the emotional appeal means to persuade an audience by appealing to their emotions.
This kind of person wants an emotional story. The whyyyyyy something is being done, not the how.
These people want the tear-jerking story, the deep-seated validation from hearing a success or misery from another person's mistakes.
Hear the incredible story of the camel who could!

Then there is the Ethos the less understood and hard to describe my myself type
(Thus demonstrating the differences between personality by my confusion)

establishment of credibility using a well-known name
Katy Perry wears THIS perfume.
Study dead bodies like Jake Paul!


These are also defined as ''different learning styles'' or different personalities. Whatever label you slap on it, people have other ways to communicate.

Have you ever spoken with someone who makes you grit your teeth because they just ..are not making sense?
While the words they speak are English, their language is confusing, and because of this, their conversation becomes infuriating, sad, or nicht wichtig

Put yourself in the shoes of a customer who is color blind in a store selling beds with no accessibility, and you will see what I mean. Just check the colors! They say as they start to dart away.
To you, it means something very different, not unlike someone suddenly speaking french in the middle of a sales pitch.

Ah Bourgeoisie! they exclaim, and you storm out being called a burger.
Or when being shown swatches the bright purple they point to is a dark blue, and the ''cherry-red'' is brown.

And when the person doesn't understand how colors work (because to you that's how colors work)
then you start to see the disconnection happening between everyday conversations with different types of people.
Like a radio wave on the wrong station, it comes out not clear, or not pleasant. Sometimes, it is not at all.

While people aren't radios, you can still tune in to what they are trying to say because (thankfully!) there are only a few frequencies they use.
And you can make yourself heard by speaking their langue if they aren't bright enough to speak yours.

Take each phrase you intend to say and spin it thrice.
Once for the emotional, Once for those seeking authority, and finally a sprinkling of details.
Some will press for details, Others will be more emotionally invested, and finally, some will be swayed by other words.
 

DrScream

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It's going to be a work in progress your whole life. Also, because of the 7th slot Fi you're probably going to continue questioning your type for a long time. Ironically this further cements the Ne + Ti.

You likely won't ever be as organized as a Dominant/Auxiliary Si type and thank god for that. Their desire for order, doing things "the way they should be done" and consumerist mindset borders insanity. But according to them we're the crazy weirdos.

You know what makes us less insane than them? We can actually see through their narrow-minded, lateral way of thinking and realize that in their reality they're 100% right. On the other hand though I've never seen an Si dom/aux truly understand we're wired differently. To them, there's only one way of doing things - "the right way" or "the way everyone does it". Philosophy is "a waste of time" and talking about the vastness of the Universe, its laws and metaphysics makes their brains fry like the ending scene in Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull.
You sound like a CS.Joseph Shill XD

-fellow ENTP
 

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AceVentures

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I'm an ENFP, and I've loved what you shared here with us.

Your lovely contributions on the topic have been diligently dissected, highlighted, and annotated in my notes for quick reference as my personal Modus Operandi.

Since fully embracing my strengths as an Extroverted Intuitive and leveraging the weakness mitigation tips you outline, my state of being has improved drastically. I can focus, I can engage, I can tune in and out of whatever I want, and I can let my imagination take me for a ride. I feel like a child again, and every day is a blast!

What you call Speed of Production test, I prefer to use the term Rate of Penetration (ROP) which I learned from Oil and Gas and I think is a hilarious term. I've scheduled an ROP check every 3rd day on my Google Calendar.

Every day, I go for a morning hike up the mountain and wander through the woods. This meditative practice is truly where my best ideas come, as I'm most in-tune with my intuitive. Since adopting ROP checks, I've starting Spiraling further into my ideas. Whereas in the past it would take me a long while before I circled back to the other interests of my curiosity, with the ROP checks I keep spiraling deeper within the latest interests I've had. On my morning walks, I can map out exactly what comes of the day, and why I'm so stoked for it all.

I can't thank you enough for piecing together this post - how you verbalize seemingly intimate and individual aspects of my personality with such clarity is beyond me. You see the patterns, and you lay them out in a manner it can be used.

Many thanks friend!

P.S. I've attached a couple of docs - these are my personal notes over the topic. Figured perhaps the mapping-out of these ideas can also be of use to someone else.
 

Attachments

  • Weakness Mitigation.pdf
    226.3 KB · Views: 5
  • You are an Explorer.pdf
    152.1 KB · Views: 4

BellaPippin

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I revisit this thread every time someone bumps it, and it lightens my mood. It empowers me. It reminds me I'm not the mess I think I am.

You just know one thing for sure, if you were interested in something one day, you will be interested in that thing again. You just can't predict when.

Last week I came back to a project that hadn't touched in a year, which in turn hadn't touched in another year or so. However each time I come back it takes more shape. I'm glad what I'm doing isn't a race to the market though, or I'd be lost.

I've added a 3rd post-it to my monitor:

IMG_2866.JPG
 

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