Am I getting scammed?! Alibaba (Overseas Importing Payment Options)

[BaraQueenbee]

Western Union sounds instantly fishy to me.

I googled the subject:
http://resources.alibaba.com/topic/593/Western_Union_Payments.htm
http://service.alibaba.com/buyer/faq_detail/13886869.htm

http://community.tradekey.com/forum/topic-1021/Be_Aware_of_Alibabacom_Scammers/20.html

I'm sorry I couldnt be of more help, maybe the more experienced Alibaba buyers can tell you more...

 

[Vigilante]

@Walter Hay

 

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[DrkSide]

there's no way to verify that or how much it was

You can contact your bank and ask what their intermediary bank charges. Someone in the wire room should be able to tell you.

Mine charges $30 per wire and the intermediary charges $25 so I just add the $25 on to each payment and it ends up correct. The bank charges me fees at the end of the month based on how many wires I send so that doesn't affect the payment.

 

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[Tehcasa]

If you have had no losses as a result of paying via Western Union, I suggest you invest in a big lottery. Asking for payment via Western Union without any option is the biggest red flag in importing. In poker, a slick player will often deliberately lose the first few hands to make his opponents over-confident. Scammers do the same with WU.

You are quite right in suspecting that PayPal is almost something only a small trading company would use in China. Tehcasa (quoted below) clearly thinks otherwise, and his advice to only use suppliers who offer payment via PayPal limits buyers to dealing with traders, not manufacturers. See my AMA thread for reasons why you should deal with manufacturers not traders. (There are a small number of manufacturers who do use PayPal.)

I have also posted in my thread Sharing my lifetime experience in export/import. Product sourcing specialist. regarding scams in which payment through PayPal has not provided protection against scams.



Sorry Tehcasa, but as you are saying that advice that I have given is "incredibly wrong", I feel that a reply is warranted.

• I have dealt with the PayPal issue above.
  
• I am dogmatic on some issues because I have been directly involved in importing since 1987 (about 8 or 9 years before Tehcasa was born) and I have seen too many people scammed, so I must try to help them avoid that.
  
• I have never said that there are no reputable suppliers on Alibaba. There are some, and many buyers have successfully built importing businesses by using them. My main point is that when there is so much dishonesty in Alibaba listings, and so many thousands of people have been scammed, why use such a risky sourcing platform?
• Thousands of people have been scammed by Gold Suppliers as I have reported and discussed in my AMA thread and I have explained in detail that a Gold Supplier badge does nothing to make a supplier more reliable or trustworthy than any other verified supplier. Also that the verification process is a joke.

If you want to offer to teach others how to source and import, I suggest that you get a bit more importing experience rather than giving up importing after 3 years or so. You are keen, and you have had some success, and I have wished you continuing success and have helped you previously via PM, but I suggest that your start into teaching the subject is probably a bit premature.

Walter

I totally disagree Walter.

You say you've been involved in importing since 1987, the grounds have changed since your millennium, (however I'm not saying you are wrong in everything you say, you're a great guy and I respect you for your contribution to the Fastlane Forum).

Look I'm not trying to start war with you, but in my 3 years of experience as an importer... I myself have had issues with Alibaba scammers.

-- You're being very dogmatic. Plus I never made any acquisitions stating "Walter thinks there's no reputable suppliers on Alibaba?"
There are many, not some. And yes... I an many other people I KNOW have built successful importing businesses accompanied with reputable suppliers.

-- I half/way agree with dishonesty in Alibaba listings. Yet this is a very shallow remark to make. Many suppliers are homogeneous, obviously. That said, you can compare company listings of those who sell these "similar products". By eliminating suppliers whose company/product listing display "too good to be true" specifications (unless what they say is true). And you can converse this speculation by specifically contacting them in a one-on-one real time chat. Then you're free from neglecting a supplier.

-- Why use such a risky platform? Are you nuts man. Alibaba is insanely big, and let along new startups fall for traps set by many few outsider scammers. Yes pro importers have also been scammed, but this happens in an importing business or any business let alone. Miss-communication with a Chinese person? Who hasn't had this problem before. It shouldn't stop you from importing at all, or whatever other platform you recommend new startups to use.

-- Gold Supplier badge does nothing to make a supplier more reliable or trustworthy than any other verified supplier? That's BS. Yeah scammers can pay for a Gold badge, but a majority are not scammers. This is ludicrous.

Experience to teach new importers? I literally gave the same advice passed down by Will Mitchell - Founder of Startupbros who states:
"Don’t pay with any other method but PayPal for the first 6 months with your supplier. This eliminates a ton of risk." I took this advice at the start of my importing startup and It significantly drove my business.

I'm insanely keen about my success and helping other importers startup. And I totally thank you for the help you have provided me via PM, but saying that I am "Premature"? I find this statement unacceptable? I'm apart of the younger generation, and you yourself know that this age is proclaimed to be tech-only... with kids always using their phones, electronic devices, or whatever facet you want to incriminate us with. But there are a few like myself (and this is not being arrogant, I'm stating a fact), who want to become the next big entrepreneur. And saying something so infringing sort of hurts me (especially from a role-model).

That's my reply. I know some won't take this lightly, so keep in mind I respect Walter and everything he's done for me and entire importing community.

Pat

 

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[Hong King Kong]

There's no guan xi if the money is paid and the goods are not delivered. The relationship is then non-existent.

Never rely on luck. There is no need to.

Walter

Yea of course, just saying if he absolutely has no other choice. He has to take a risk.

From my experience living in China, suppliers have taken a risk on me many times.

Producing what I ask upfront, with little to no deposit, then just trusting I'd return and pay them afterwards.

It works both ways.

 

[Jambla]

At this point is there any reason paying them with wire is safer than WU? If there is Id like to know, I know credit cards can be insured sometimes for some things but I'm not sure about bank transfer. Maybe you could maybe get it reversed somehow or find the person a month or 2 from now if you realise it was a scam?

Also if you're not sure enough to pay them with WU, why pay them anything at all?

I'm not directly asking you, but if anyone has a response I'd love to hear it. The only correct answer is it's only slightly more expensive to do the bank transfer, but is it really any safer?

Maybe I'm just cheap and it will cost me one day.

I could not find a way to pay over any other method, I couldn't get WU to work it wouldn't let me select USD as receiving currency. Me wanting to use a credit card was not for protection but a way to fund my first order.

 

[Vincent_Vega]

Is everybody paying directly via wire transfer into the suppliers bank account or are you guys using the Alibaba secure payment? I guess even if it's not perfectly safe, it gives you a bit more security than paying the money directly to the supplier?

 

[Walter Hay]

Is everybody paying directly via wire transfer into the suppliers bank account or are you guys using the Alibaba secure payment? I guess even if it's not perfectly safe, it gives you a bit more security than paying the money directly to the supplier?

One last question: Say I have a reliable company which offers me Paypal on a production-order (<$3000), should I then pay with Paypal or still pay via Alibaba Escrow?

Please see Post #14 on Page 1 of this thread, where I explained that Alibaba Escrow no longer exists and its replacement, Secure Payment is still full of loopholes.

I explained payment methods in more detail in this post: Sharing my lifetime experience in export/import. Product sourcing specialist.

Walter

 

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[Vincent_Vega]

If they really are genuine manufacturers and they offer PayPal, the biggest concerns are:

• PayPal's transaction cost is high, and they won't accept payment through PayPal unless you pay those costs.

I always thought that it's normal to pay the transaction cost on my own.

• The recipient will almost certainly be an individual, not the company.

Could that become a problem in some way?

• PayPal protection can be avoided by scammers if they send packages filled with trash and you make the wrong kind of claim with PayPal. Don't tell PayPal the products were faulty, or not meeting description. If you have signed for them you must video the process of opening the packages, and if they are full of stones or sawdust, notify PayPal that the transaction is fraudulent.

Wow, thanks for that. Recording the opening process for the PayPal protection is a really valuable tip and I didn't think of that.
So that means that I can use the Paypal protection for not-meeting-the-description, being-faulty and not-delivered products?
Walter

 

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[Walter Hay]

"Wow, thanks for that. Recording the opening process for the PayPal protection is a really valuable tip and I didn't think of that.
So that means that I can use the Paypal protection for not-meeting-the-description, being-faulty and not-delivered products?"

That can be OK if you have proof by way of screen shots of absolutely all communications, their online advertisements, shipment notifications, your specifications etc.

The video record is a last resort, and can be of value if you claim fraud.

Walter

 

[Walter Hay]

Apologies for not reading everything up till now as I only read the first post. From experience, stay away from anyone (even if legit) who only wants to accept WU. Maybe it's been mentioned on here countless times but Western Union is jargon for "let me screw you". Only use WU for family lol.

Every company should have a Paypal account. But mind you I've never dealt with Alibaba so I'm not sure what payment methods are popular in that part of the world. And if you do pay with Paypal make sure the money is coming from your CC and not your chequings/savings account. Because worse case scenario if Paypal doesn't protect you because their being dumb, you simply contact your CC company and they'll make sure to do everything to keep you on board . This comes from experience. Again, the main point here is that all paths end with using your CC.

Thanks for your contribution Georgy. Yes using a credit card does add a further layer of protection. Most manufacturers don't offer PayPal, and it is a poor option for large amounts. The supplier will invariably require you to pay the PayPal fees.

Walter

 

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[Jake]

But it's fine to use a paypal upfront payment, when ordering only samples, right ?

It wouldn't make sense for them to scam people for $40 and losing trust and future business.

It does if that's their business model..selling a lot of shitty samples to people can be lucrative.

But I'd go with paypal

 

[Walter Hay]

Understood. Thank you very much!

I have also read your notes on PayPal'ing the full order, and would not do that unless I were in a position to video the opening; good call.

Most suppliers will really send & ship, and show you the air/freight bill before they get paid? I think most want a deposit before they start and then the rest at shipping time, correct?

None will ship before receiving full payment unless they are in possession of your Letter of Credit. An L/C guarantees payment as long as they have met absolutely and precisely every condition listed in the L/C.

The only other time they will ship before receiving full payment is when you have obtained the rare privilege of a monthly account, (unless you are a multinational like Adidas, Gucci, Apple or Nike.)

That rare privilege is obtainable for small importers who have developed a good relationship with their supplier and who place several orders per month. If you have the latest edition of my book, have a look at Chapter 15.1 Possibility of Obtaining Monthly Terms. That section explains how it can be done.

I wrote that valuable section as a result of my personal experience. My relationship with my suppliers was so good that I was able to pass on that privilege of a monthly account automatically to my franchisees who operated my importing business in four countries. When I signed up a new franchisee I contacted all suppliers and requested that they allow them a monthly account on the same payment terms as I had.

The franchise agreement provided for forfeiture of the franchise if the monthly account terms with a supplier were not honored. I never had to invoke that clause.

Walter

 

[Walter Hay]

Right on, I see.

So basically it's either L/C if they'll accept, or a T/T with a trusted supplier. No full PayPal payments except maybe a sample, and paying the company/owner account directly.

Yes, in summary: L/C or escrow.com (if they will accept escrow) are as safe as you can get, with the added advantage of being a great means of being sure they meet your specifications. T/T is very nearly universally used for shipments up to about $2,000. I have explained the risks, but that is the method most importers use. PayPal for a full order is costly and does not always provide the protection most people think. Payment direct to the company owner is OK provided you can be sure it is the owner.

Walter

 

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[MitchC]

I don't know a single legit factory that accepts Paypal, the ones that do end up not doing it. One thing is selling 200 units of a 20$ item and having 2 or 3 scammers, another is having people claiming back thousands of dollars worth of product, or paypal just randomly freezing their funds.

Paypal and China don't have a good relationship.

I've done WU transfers of up to 2000€ but with suppliers I've started with 300€ transactions. You have to find ways to find if your supplier is trustworthy and build a relationship.

Also, the most common transfer method is Bank Transfer, but it's costly, here in Portugal costs around 39€ each transfer.

There are not that many people scamming on Alibaba, I never found one but it may depend on industry. Your biggest concern will be quality issues, delays, trading companies disguising as factories, etc.

This.

I used bank transfer for my first purchase thinking it was safer but my bank charged me like $50 and then the factory told me there was another $50 somewhere along the way and I don't know if it's true or not. Since then I have used western union with no issues at all. I've also used PayPal for samples but it's uncommon, I think it's almost something only a small trading company would use in China.

If you're looking for iPods or other brands then it doesn't matter how you pay you're getting scammed. If you're looking for anything else, do some basic due diligence and you should be fine no matter how you pay.

Asking for payment by western union should be no cause for alarm by itself. Although it's wierd they don't offer bank transfer aswell.

 

[MitchC]

This depends on which bank you use and what their policies are. All banks charge for wire and most have an intermediary bank that they have to go through to get the money overseas. That is where the extra $50 came from.

Example.

You bank with Bank A and need to send money to your supplier that has an account with Bank C. Bank A and Bank C don't have a relationship so they use Bank B as a "hop" for the money. Bank B takes a fee for this.

My wife was an international wire specialist so if you have any other questions just PM me.

Yeah that's how it was explained to me, even my bank said it when I transfered it, going from nz to China via USA, what I meant is, there's no way to verify that or how much it was, you have to take the suppliers word, with western union, it's $25 and that's it.

 

[HyperFocus]

There's countless suppliers on Alibaba and millions accept PayPal as a payment option. For you, I would rule out any possible outcome of suppliers providing you with other payment methods, (if this is your first time importing). PayPal is the number setting stone if you're a startup.
My advice? Find a supplier who accepts Paypal. If you're having trouble determining whether a supplier is reliable or not, message me and I'll give you a fast guide on how to assess if a supplier is reputable or not. So many startups use dogmatic sense to disarray any suppliers on Alibaba, because they solely don't believe any are reliable, or alternatively... that any gold suppliers higher than 5+ years are the go-to. This is incredibly wrong, and that's WHY I want to you help you out. PM anytime, and I'll get back to you immediately

My paypal is blocked and I dont want to use my friends/families.

What about Escrow?

 

[MitchC]

If you have had no losses as a result of paying via Western Union, I suggest you invest in a big lottery. Asking for payment via Western Union without any option is the biggest red flag in importing. In poker, a slick player will often deliberately lose the first few hands to make his opponents over-confident. Scammers do the same with WU.

You are quite right in suspecting that PayPal is almost something only a small trading company would use in China. Tehcasa (quoted below) clearly thinks otherwise, and his advice to only use suppliers who offer payment via PayPal limits buyers to dealing with traders, not manufacturers. See my AMA thread for reasons why you should deal with manufacturers not traders. (There are a small number of manufacturers who do use PayPal.)

I have also posted in my thread Sharing my lifetime experience in export/import. Product sourcing specialist. regarding scams in which payment through PayPal has not provided protection against scams.

You may have misread my post but that's basically exactly what I said.

Only accepting WU is wierd perhaps I should have used the word suspicious. But accepting it as an option is no cause for alarm in itself.

I don't need to buy any lottery tickets I did plenty of due diligence, I'm not saying you aren't knowledgable but you aren't the only person in the world who has succesfully imported from China even though you have built an info product business around acting like it.

 

[Jambla]

I have just ordered a sample from a supplier, they wanted the money in USD. I had to do a T/T which cost me £40 in fees, pain in the arse.

I am going to have to work out how I am going to get the money in my bank account for the first order of 100 as I dont see how I can use a credit card if im doing T/T

 

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[MitchC]

I have just ordered a sample from a supplier, they wanted the money in USD. I had to do a T/T which cost me £40 in fees, pain in the arse.

I am going to have to work out how I am going to get the money in my bank account for the first order of 100 as I dont see how I can use a credit card if im doing T/T

At this point is there any reason paying them with wire is safer than WU? If there is Id like to know, I know credit cards can be insured sometimes for some things but I'm not sure about bank transfer. Maybe you could maybe get it reversed somehow or find the person a month or 2 from now if you realise it was a scam?

Also if you're not sure enough to pay them with WU, why pay them anything at all?

I'm not directly asking you, but if anyone has a response I'd love to hear it. The only correct answer is it's only slightly more expensive to do the bank transfer, but is it really any safer?

Maybe I'm just cheap and it will cost me one day.

 

[Tehcasa]

Just to comment on this post... If you are limiting yourself to only factories that take Paypal, you are limiting your business options. Your goal is to find the best factory for your product. Methods of payment should be secondary. In fact, I would love to find a factory that only takes gold coins, because this limits the commandment of entry for your competitors. One day you may be wondering where your competitor makes such a great product and why you can't find his supplier, then you'll realize it's because their factory is on top of a mountain only accessible by carrier pigeon.

Agreed 100%. I just thought it was ideal for startups to use paypal only at the start for 6 months just to get used to everything. I leant my lesson today, I am wrong. Thanks for this great advice

You don't have to be incredibly successful or knowledgeable to teach others how to do something. You just have to know enough, and then be very good at marketing. Will Mitchell and Scott Voelker fall into this category, as an example.

The difference is that those two bring in experts who really know what they are talking about, and are then humbled by what they learn, whereas you call the most experienced importer on this forum "nuts", "dogmatic", "BS", "ludicrous" and "not wrong in everything".




You respect him so much, in fact, that you call him "nuts", "dogmatic", "BS", "ludicrous" and "not wrong in everything".

You are welcome to stop listening to people with decades of experience. Some people need to put their hands directly into the fire to know that it burns.

You're 18. You don't know what you don't know. I remember what it was like to be where you are at. When I was 21, I thought I knew everything. Now in my mid-40's, I realize how uncommon common sense can be when you're 18 and know everything there is to know. I was you once. You're going to have to live a bit before the world starts to make more sense and before you can make some order from the chaos. Your generation starts with the premise that you don't have or need to listen to the people who blazed trails before you. That's potentially a fatal character flaw but one that can eventually make you stronger.

Your post from your limited experience, assaulting and insulting someone wiser who has helped you directly, is why people ultimately disengage. You won't understand what I am saying until this happens to you some day, and then you'll get it but it will be too late.

Good luck to you. You have rough waters in front of you, but learning to sail them solo might make you stronger. You don't need any more advice. Your profile says "18 year old life coach."

Walter, I'm sorry to have tagged you into this. However, know that I agree with 99.9% of what you said. Don't feel as if you are obligated to respond to any of this. Sometimes the best teacher is time and first hand experience. I'd blow this off and disengage from further requests from people who treat what you have to say with distain. Thank you for answering my original request.

Thank you

You don't have to be incredibly successful or knowledgeable to teach others how to do something. You just have to know enough, and then be very good at marketing. Will Mitchell and Scott Voelker fall into this category, as an example.

The difference is that those two bring in experts who really know what they are talking about, and are then humbled by what they learn, whereas you call the most experienced importer on this forum "nuts", "dogmatic", "BS", "ludicrous" and "not wrong in everything".




You respect him so much, in fact, that you call him "nuts", "dogmatic", "BS", "ludicrous" and "not wrong in everything".

You don't have to be incredibly successful or knowledgeable to teach others how to do something. You just have to know enough, and then be very good at marketing. Will Mitchell and Scott Voelker fall into this category, as an example.

The difference is that those two bring in experts who really know what they are talking about, and are then humbled by what they learn, whereas you call the most experienced importer on this forum "nuts", "dogmatic", "BS", "ludicrous" and "not wrong in everything".




You respect him so much, in fact, that you call him "nuts", "dogmatic", "BS", "ludicrous" and "not wrong in everything".

I had a paragraph I was going to send, but I was like nah what's the point. Don't want to add fire to the heat. But thanks for the response. I hope you have a lovely day.

@Tehcasa you say you totally disagree but the you go on to agree on a majority of stuff

@Tehcasa you say you totally disagree but the you go on to agree on a majority of stuff

I too use Alibaba and don't think there is other sourcing platform out there with the size and product display it has. @Walter Hay advices other platforms and explains why Alibaba that good of a platform, and yes the Gold status is BS as it is because it's just a payment the supplier does. Now, it's more likely that legit suppliers pay for Gold Status than scamers, but that doesn't rule them out unfortunately. Verification is also BS, even outsourced company reports claiming they are factories when they are clearly not...

So while I do partly agree with you on not discarding Alibaba, I've also been importing for 3 years, and the only "suppliers" who accepted Paypal were small trading companies. One of them contacted me after 1 year asking me if I had gotten the money back because Paypal froze their funds... I'm now using a super legit factory, and the guy did me a favor of buying me a smartphone and sending me, I paid him by Paypal, guess what, after 1 month the account got frozen and he asked me to claim back.

When you are dealing with mid-big sized factories, the chance of them accepting Paypal is close to zero, it's just a risk they are not willing to take because any reputable importer will use bank transfer. Only "kids" looking to get a few samples here and there ask for Paypal payments (I did too myself).

I've visited 7 factories on my last visit to China, none accept Paypal.

So yes, limiting to Paypal payments will not only limit the number of suppliers, but will also lead to low quality ones and most likely trading companies.

Now... NEVER pay by WU if that's the only payment method they accept, that's scam alert 200%... If they accept WU I always ask for bank details first, that will give you another layer of security.

I know this is probably bad to insight to state: but visiting only 7 factories and having this incident initialized in your times using PayP

 

[TKDTyler]

With friends like these...



I hope I never get to the point where I am too smart and stop listening.

Would you like to be placed in an insane asylum or assisted living quarters for the elderly?

 

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[HyperFocus]

Very cool stuff, thanks everyone!

 

[Vincent_Vega]

One last question: Say I have a reliable company which offers me Paypal on a production-order (<$3000), should I then pay with Paypal or still pay via Alibaba Escrow?

 

[Vincent_Vega]

Please see Post #14 on Page 1 of this thread, where I explained that Alibaba Escrow no longer exists and its replacement, Secure Payment is still full of loopholes.

I explained payment methods in more detail in this post: Sharing my lifetime experience in export/import. Product sourcing specialist.

Walter

Thank you for your reply, Walter. But that didn't answer my last question. In your thread, you said that some genuine suppliers do offer Paypal for larger transactions. In that case, would you then use Paypal or still one of the other payment methods?

 

[contract]

Either through Alibaba or outside if it only via Paypal.

Nothing else.

Ali's protection is solid. Paypal's protection is solid.

WU is like sending cash. You're praying someone miles of miles away outside of your legal reign delivers on a commitment made online. On a larger deal; If it would cost more (time, money, legal expense, travel) to collect than it would to receive product reconsider.

I've yet to have a single supplier on Ali run after getting payment. I don't worry about things I cannot control. I let Ali/PP deal with that and focus on my business.

 

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[Vincent_Vega]

Just took a look at the Paypal buyer protection rules. It states that a transaction isn't eligible for protection when paid in multiple payments, like deposit and final payment.
So how can that work with Alibaba? It's almost always deposit for production first and then final payment before shipping.

 

[Vincent_Vega]

Ha Ha. Gotcha! I guess that's the reaction from Alibaba staff. But that's only one small issue. There are a lot more loopholes in Alibaba's Trade Assurance scheme.

For example, if your deposit is less than $1,000 you can't get cover anyway, but for the full story have a look at my detailed explanation of Trade Assurance here:Sharing my lifetime experience in export/import. Product sourcing specialist.

Walter

You missunderstood my last sentence. If I buy from an Alibaba-Supplier via Paypal, I will have to make a deposit first and then pay the rest. But Paypal states that they don't cover multiple payments.

Do you have suggestions for that?

 

[Vincent_Vega]

Thanks for pointing out my slip. About the only alternative you have is to pay the deposit by another means such as T/T, and the larger balance via PayPal. That way at least the larger part of your risk will have some protection. PayPal won't know that the amount you have paid through them is not the full amount.

Walter

Thank you! I always wonder why I never get those ideas.

But after reading through everything you wrote about Alibaba Escrow, it seems that it's safer/more protected to use Paypal anyway?

 

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[Vincent_Vega]

Thanks for your contribution Georgy. Yes using a credit card does add a further layer of protection. Most manufacturers don't offer PayPal, and it is a poor option for large amounts. The supplier will invariably require you to pay the PayPal fees.

Walter

Most cc-companies offer some kind of shopping protection. Like "pay with your cc and if you don't get your goods or they are damaged, we will refund the money". I guess this will also apply if paying an alibaba supplier with Paypal+cc?