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The Ukraine War, implications, outcome?

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ZF Lee

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That bad? :happy:

That being said, I try to see both sides.
I'm just as frustrated about the Western media bias and the Cold War politics.

But I can also understand what it means to fight to protect your way of life when an enemy attacks.

The other day I was grumbling real angry to myself about having to do all the house chores and cleaning and stuff. 'No one's helping me', I was saying to myself. I did try to follow Atomic Habits of systemizing everything...but what it doesn't clear up is the inner hate in your heart and mind for work that you used to...well, hate.

Then I thought of the Ukrainians. How they struggled against invaders...scored small wins here and there...how they rallied almost the whole Internet and Europe (regardless of trolls, bots and inner agendas)

I thought to myself, 'What is my way of life? To keep complaining and hating on the chores? Or I can do something...get it done...do something to make it easier in the long run...do something to change.'. So I went to finish up my workload that day.

I think there is always something we can learn from these conflicts...and its not always about politics or being woke or whatever.
 
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Xeon

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Hopefully this war will end soon in a somewhat decent manner, realistically since russia seems so stubborn and ucrainian people don't really have that much of a choice but to fight or die trying to defend their way of life...

US will do to Russia what Russia currently does to Ukraine if Russia doesn't do something now. Right now. Not saying Russia is right to invade Ukraine though. Ukraine has 44m people vs Russia's 148m people.

If NATO continues to expand eastwards and build military bases in Ukraine, 148m people in Russia are at risk. Between 148m people vs 44m people, which will be a bigger humanitarian crisis? Some food for thought.


It's like 2 dogs fighting for a piece of meat in front of the butcher shop , because they don't know/ can't open the door, it doesn't even occur to them what is on the other side or that there even is a "other side of the door"

It's not 2 dogs fighting for piece of meat. If only it's that simple.

There are actually 3 main dogs : Dog A, Dog U and Dog R.

Dog A is the most powerful, Dog R second and Dog U is the weakest. However, the power difference between Dog A and R is not that huge.

Dog R and Dog U belong to the same mother, but both dogs do not have good sibling ties and have always quarreled since young.

Dog A sees Dog R as a threat, and decides to make use of already strained relationships between Dog U and Dog R to let them fight among themselves.
To make Dog U agree, Dog A tells Dog U that he can join the local dog club as an esteemed member if he agrees + treats and meat daily.

So Dog U keeps going to Dog R's kennel daily, with threats that it's going to join Dog A's club unless Dog R gives up a portion of his meat daily to the rest of the dogs.

Dog R knows that the club of dogs is going to come as a team to attack it soon, so it decides to wreck Dog U first, as a warning to the rest of the dogs that it is not a helpless little puppy.

Dog A, seeing this, uses his position as the most powerful dog in the village, to summon two dozen over smaller dogs from the same village, to attack Dog R.

Is Dog A or Dog R the bigger bad guy? Never mind Dog U, because it's just a pawn.


But what would they use as an excuse for that kind of destruction?

Step 1: "Russian troops in Ukraine building nuclear missile bases"

Step 2: "Our NATO allies are in immediate danger. As the President of the United States Of America, I fear for the lives of the good people of Europe"

Step 3: "We must not, and will not give in to an authoritarian regime that oppresses their own people. We must not lose the war on Democracy."

Step 4: "Experts" coming on TV and social media 24/7 talking about how Russia is "going to invade Europe in the next few days"

Step 5: US and international media (most media in most countries get their foreign news from the major US news outlets like Reuters and CNN etc) will spam and repeat this 24/7.
If you repeat something long enough, it becomes true!

Of course, realistically, a war between US and Russia may likely not happen solely due to the fact that Russia has nukes. Mutually Assured Destruction is the best deterrent....
 

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Ukraine is no saint, How many of you have found out Ukraine Propaganda to portray itself as the little guys against the big bully(it does have some truth to it, but cmon, look on Reddit and Twitter and it feels like Russia is the new Germany and Putin is Hitler).

They(Ukraine) are actively stopping Indian Medical students to flee the country and there are also videos and reports of beating and shooting in direction of the students.

I DON'T support any side, but Ukraine is no saint here.

The way I see it Russia does not want any influence of The USA on its border(they have been vocal about it for a long time) Like the USA didn't want in Cuba.
On the other hand, Ukraine is a free country and it should make its decision. and invasion and attacks on civilians are wrong.


You can pick the side you want, I decide to pick neither side and now decide to ignore the issue until any critical development warrants my attention.

Edit: they
 
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Xeon

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DayIFly

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This is akin to a chess play. Russia and the US are the players, the world is the chess board, and the smaller countries are the chess pieces. What is happening now is not irrational, deranged and no, the players aren't immature teenagers. It is cold hard logic, it is game theory and there are risks and these risks are being taken because the payouts will be astronomical.

For 30 years now, the US is consistently trying to bring their chess pieces into a position that will check-mate Russia, i.e. nuclear first strike capability. Which means that Russia can be nuked with a tactical nuke like Japan once was. A conflict of interests could indeed escalate into this scenario. A more likely scenario is that this potential first strike capability would provide enough leverage for the US that the pressure on Russia would be so high (they would be forced to endure any and all provocations) that they would basically become a vassal state through internal fragmentation, i.e. a coup or a civil war caused by various Western-sponsored agents like Nawalny. This would be called "democratization" or "the opening of Russia". Akin to the horrendous plundering of the 90s. Russia would be split into multiple countries, and the Eastern areas with their huge natural resource deposits would be sucked dry by various Western companies ("the payout"). Russia as a sovereign nation would cease to exist.

Before the US can check-mate them, Russia decided to prevent this by going all-in. The cards are on the table. Nobody can say that this was an unforeseen event. Politologists and think tanks were writing about this for more than 2 decades. Putin was talking about this for at least 15 years (the full speeches are all on youtube). Why? Because the West is acting, and Putin is reacting. There is a cause and effect. NATO's expansion to the East was started before there were any talks of Russian aggression. These talks started only after Putin spoke out about this.

And NATO bases weren't the only problems, the destabilization of the Middle East and Africa with the subsequent radicalization and extremists, Russia has a gigantic border to the south, that's why they intervened in Syria. The radicals in Chechnya in the 90s were already a problem they escaped from by the skin of their teeth. And it was already starting to creep into Kazakhstan. I have relatives there, they told me that just a couple years ago, radicals of that sort began to make problems. Then the Russian special forces came in and took them all out, they were flying with their helicopters above their city. But nobody cares in the West, because how many people know anything, let's say, about Kazakhstan. Nobody. Russia thinks we are nuts. We bomb the whole world and then have the arrogance to tell them what to do, how to live, and what values they should have.

Ukraine could have been a neutral state, a bridge between East and West, but the West wanted them in NATO. The gamble was lost and now they'll be under Russian influence. This was an implied risk that was part of the decision-making, and thus was a risk that the decision makers were ready to take.

PS:
Some people mention the Cuban Missile Crisis. And I am always surprised that a lot of people don't know that the Cuban missiles were a response to to the stationing of Jupiter intermediate-range ballistic missiles in Turkey. The Cuba crises ended when Kennedy agreed to remove them from Turkey.
 

nothingness

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The way I see it, just a few people in this thread make it embarrassing. Ban them from this thread and the problem is solved.
Yeah censorship solves problems but it also creates new ones.
 
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Silverfox148

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Before the US can check-mate them, Russia decided to prevent this by going all-in. The cards are on the table. Nobody can say that this was an unforeseen event. Politologists and think tanks were writing about this for more than 2 decades. Putin was talking about this for at least 15 years (the full speeches are all on youtube). Why? Because the West is acting, and Putin is reacting. There is a cause and effect. NATO's expansion to the East was started before there were any talks of Russian aggression. These talks started only after Putin spoke out about this.

This is exactly what has happened, before NATO/West erases the Russian tactical and strategic nuclear deterrence via encirclement Putin has acted, Russia is all in on this.

NATO/West/USA can't act military because of the Russian nuclear deterrent. This is the cold hard truth as laid out above. The west underestimates the Russian people's will not to become a vassal state, they have proven over and over again that they will not become a vassal state of the west, that's how Putin ended up in power after the Yeltsin years.

The real losers here are the Ukrainian people, they got played by their politicians.
Pax Americana is over, the game enters a new kinetic phase with China now in the mix.
 

Black_Dragon43

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These are the results of the UN Resolution approved today requesting Russia to immediately withdraw its troops from Ukraine, condemning the invasion in the harshest of terms and condemning Vladimir Putin for putting his nuclear forces on high alert.

141 countries voted FOR this resolution. The whole world stands united against Putin and his evil empire.

The only countries who voted AGAINST are Russia, Belarus, North Korea, Syria and Eritrea.

Even countries like IRAN, CUBA, VIETNAM, CHINA and PAKISTAN who are traditional friends of Russia and enemies of the US prefered to ABSTAIN to ensure they’re on the right side of history.

We are achieving a historical victory for freedom and democracy, and showing autocrats around the world that their regimes are not welcome!
 

Trevor Kuntz

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View attachment 42388
These are the results of the UN Resolution approved today requesting Russia to immediately withdraw its troops from Ukraine, condemning the invasion in the harshest of terms and condemning Vladimir Putin for putting his nuclear forces on high alert.

141 countries voted FOR this resolution. The whole world stands united against Putin and his evil empire.

The only countries who voted AGAINST are Russia, Belarus, North Korea, Syria and Eritrea.

Even countries like IRAN, CUBA, VIETNAM, CHINA and PAKISTAN who are traditional friends of Russia and enemies of the US prefered to ABSTAIN to ensure they’re on the right side of history.

We are achieving a historical victory for freedom and democracy, and showing autocrats around the world that their regimes are not welcome!
I'm not surprised by those countries abstaining, but I am surprised that the CSTO countries (Armenia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, and Tajikistan) abstained instead of voting against and that Serbia and India voted in favor instead of abstaining.

Not sure how much this resolution changes anything though.
 
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Xeon

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View attachment 42388
These are the results of the UN Resolution approved today requesting Russia to immediately withdraw its troops from Ukraine, condemning the invasion in the harshest of terms and condemning Vladimir Putin for putting his nuclear forces on high alert.

141 countries voted FOR this resolution. The whole world stands united against Putin and his evil empire.

The only countries who voted AGAINST are Russia, Belarus, North Korea, Syria and Eritrea.

Even countries like IRAN, CUBA, VIETNAM, CHINA and PAKISTAN who are traditional friends of Russia and enemies of the US prefered to ABSTAIN to ensure they’re on the right side of history.

We are achieving a historical victory for freedom and democracy, and showing autocrats around the world that their regimes are not welcome!


In the school cafeteria, if the school bully asks you if you're on his side or the victim's side, most people would say they would choose to side with the school bully for fear of becoming the next victim. What's new?

Those countries that don't dare to vote for Russia, are worried the US will target them next by overthrowing their governments or ruin then economically through sanctions

Btw, these overthrowing of foreign, sovereign governments by the US is really WTF moments. You mean a country from the other side of the globe can just come in and kick out your government? If every country does this to each other, there's going to be complete chaos in this world.
 

Antifragile

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I hate this thread.
 

loop101

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If anyone wonders why The Fastlane Forum has prohibited political discussions on this forum for over 10+ years, this thread is a prime example.

What has come of this thread? Certainly not solutions, clarity, or resolution -- just a bunch of people who have elected to use the ignore function, hence tuning out each other.
Hopefully this thread won't get locked or disappeared, unless the arguing spreads to other threads. I've learned a lot about that side of the world by reading their (often angry) posts.
 
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BizyDad

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In hindsight, seems unfair that Hadrian got called a spammer after 5 pages but Xeon gets to spout off 5 times the unrelated anti-American nonsense.

If every country does this to each other, there's going to be complete chaos in this world.

Are you not paying attention?

Iran does it. Saudi Arabia. Russia. China. France. UK. US. African and South American countries do it to each other.

It wouldn't surprise me if Israel and India do it too.

What world are you living in?

The United States isn't the only boogeyman in the world.

In my lifetime the United States has closed over 1000 bases on foreign soil.

So we've got to be the only boogeyman that actually leaves, right?

Even with your graphic about all the bases in Europe, you're forgetting that we have less bases and troops there now than we did 50 years ago.

In 1980 we had 350,000 troops stationed in Europe alone. Recent figures show we have roughly 170,000 stationed worldwide, with roughly half of that in Europe. That's over 75% reduction in troops. How the heck are we supposed to invade Russia and roll on through to China with 80,000 troops? Nonsense.

You know, maybe some people in the world prefer to live in a democracy with freedoms. Maybe the US isn't to blame for everything that goes wrong in every nation.

Yeah, the US has done a lot wrong. There's no denying that.

But you call the US the bully when they have been drawing down their troops, and RUSSIA LITERALLY INVADED THEIR NEIGHBOR.

AGAIN.

Actually... AGAIN AGAIN.

Shoot I might be forgetting one. I've lost track of how many times Russian troops have invaded one of their neighbors under the guise of helping some "separatists". And that's in just 14 yrs.

People are bringing up what the US did to Iraq, which was 2003. Ok. I mean yeah, that was wrong.

Russia has committed three invasions since then. What consequences have they faced? How come only Black Dragon seems upset about Russia's recent history?

But you keep wanting to sell us on the idea that they are the aggrieved party? Like they're the ones getting bullied? This is got to be a joke, and it's a bad time for jokes.

That vote represents the school being sick of the bully's bullying.

And the EU is sending more supplies and armaments than the US is. Europe is even giving Ukraine fighter jets. For free. The US didn't force anyone to do that.

But yeah, this is all America's fault because any second we're going to nuke Moscow right? We want 144 million Russians living in fear, right?

Newsflash, we've had nukes and bases in Europe since 1946. And with our troops on their soil, Russia built a pipeline to Germany. Why would we allow that if we are as bad as you say?

Shoot, we've got these stealth submarines that can fire nuclear weapons from the Baltic Sea. So what do we need a base in Ukraine for?

Your points just don't make sense. Putin's invasion of Ukraine can't stop our first strike submarines.

When Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons the US promised to commit to their safety, as did Russia.

Both countries let Ukraine down. Big time.

But the US didn't invade Ukraine. The US has fired no shots in this war.

And even now, when faced with the perfect excuse to do everything you keep saying we want to do, with the full world support behind anything we would want to do, the United States response has been incredibly...

Tepid.

It's this simple. If Russia stops firing, this war is over. If Ukraine stops firing, Ukrainians die.

You can't see which one is the school bully?

Of course, realistically, a war between US and Russia may likely not happen solely due to the fact that Russia has nukes. Mutually Assured Destruction is the best deterrent....

This is the only realistic thing you've said.

It's like you had a moment of actual clarity in an ocean of trolling.

The United States doesn't want a war with Russia, which is why we let them have their way in Syria, in Georgia, in Crimea. If you ask me, Biden's response in the days leading up to the invasion practically rolled out the red carpet.

It was the Europeans that stepped up with harsher sanctions. In addition to Zelenskyy, I don't know which European leaders deserve the most credit for what's been done so far, but I know our President was home in Delaware while Europe was taking action.

Biden the Bully. What an image that is.
 

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After reading some of the posts in this thread, I feel like Eminem - holding back from dissing someone :rofl:
 
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Simon Angel

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In hindsight, seems unfair that Hadrian got called a spammer after 5 pages but Xeon gets to spout off 5 times the unrelated anti-American nonsense.



Are you not paying attention?

Iran does it. Saudi Arabia. Russia. China. France. UK. US. African and South American countries do it to each other.

It wouldn't surprise me if Israel and India do it too.

What world are you living in?

The United States isn't the only boogeyman in the world.

In my lifetime the United States has closed over 1000 bases on foreign soil.

So we've got to be the only boogeyman that actually leaves, right?

Even with your graphic about all the bases in Europe, you're forgetting that we have less bases and troops there now than we did 50 years ago.

In 1980 we had 350,000 troops stationed in Europe alone. Recent figures show we have roughly 170,000 stationed worldwide, with roughly half of that in Europe. That's over 75% reduction in troops. How the heck are we supposed to invade Russia and roll on through to China with 80,000 troops? Nonsense.

You know, maybe some people in the world prefer to live in a democracy with freedoms. Maybe the US isn't to blame for everything that goes wrong in every nation.

Yeah, the US has done a lot wrong. There's no denying that.

But you call the US the bully when they have been drawing down their troops, and RUSSIA LITERALLY INVADED THEIR NEIGHBOR.

AGAIN.

Actually... AGAIN AGAIN.

Shoot I might be forgetting one. I've lost track of how many times Russian troops have invaded one of their neighbors under the guise of helping some "separatists". And that's in just 14 yrs.

People are bringing up what the US did to Iraq, which was 2003. Ok. I mean yeah, that was wrong.

Russia has committed three invasions since then. What consequences have they faced? How come only Black Dragon seems upset about Russia's recent history?

But you keep wanting to sell us on the idea that they are the aggrieved party? Like they're the ones getting bullied? This is got to be a joke, and it's a bad time for jokes.

That vote represents the school being sick of the bully's bullying.

And the EU is sending more supplies and armaments than the US is. Europe is even giving Ukraine fighter jets. For free. The US didn't force anyone to do that.

But yeah, this is all America's fault because any second we're going to nuke Moscow right? We want 144 million Russians living in fear, right?

Newsflash, we've had nukes and bases in Europe since 1946. And with our troops on their soil, Russia built a pipeline to Germany. Why would we allow that if we are as bad as you say?

Shoot, we've got these stealth submarines that can fire nuclear weapons from the Baltic Sea. So what do we need a base in Ukraine for?

Your points just don't make sense. Putin's invasion of Ukraine can't stop our first strike submarines.

When Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons the US promised to commit to their safety, as did Russia.

Both countries let Ukraine down. Big time.

But the US didn't invade Ukraine. The US has fired no shots in this war.

And even now, when faced with the perfect excuse to do everything you keep saying we want to do, with the full world support behind anything we would want to do, the United States response has been incredibly...

Tepid.

It's this simple. If Russia stops firing, this war is over. If Ukraine stops firing, Ukrainians die.

You can't see which one is the school bully?



This is the only realistic thing you've said.

It's like you had a moment of actual clarity in an ocean of trolling.

The United States doesn't want a war with Russia, which is why we let them have their way in Syria, in Georgia, in Crimea. If you ask me, Biden's response in the days leading up to the invasion practically rolled out the red carpet.

It was the Europeans that stepped up with harsher sanctions. In addition to Zelenskyy, I don't know which European leaders deserve the most credit for what's been done so far, but I know our President was home in Delaware while Europe was taking action.

Biden the Bully. What an image that is.

Why play dumb and focus on the specifics when it's evident both sides would refuse to give up without a fight when stepped over? And who cares exactly how many U.S. bases there are in Europe when Russia has none in North America or even South America?

Also, while his Russian bias might be showing, it's pretty damn obvious your U.S. bias is even worse, lol.

Regarding which one is the school bully, I think the U.S. wins by a huge margin. In any case, I'm not for or against any side, I just want this to end so innocent people stop dying in this Game of Thrones.

And before you ask, I'd rather live in the "U.S." version of the world than Russia's or China's. That still doesn't change the fact that the U.S. is run by some shitty a$$ people.

It's also funny how 99% of the world couldn't even point to where Ukraine was on the map but now they're spamming "Slava Ukraini" on Reddit, Twitter, and other social media like mindless drones. I'm not saying Russia is necessarily justified in its invasion of Ukraine but I am saying that IF they were, people still wouldn't know it - because Ukraine (and let's be honest, the U.S.) absolutely wrecked Russia in the infowar - TV, news, and social media.

P.S. @Antifragile I hate this thread too and I feel bad that you're reading this when your family is there while we argue incessantly from the comfort of our own homes. To reiterate what I said above, I hope this war is over soon so we could all go back to being on each other's throats over the usual petty topics instead.
 
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Kevin88660

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Very disturbing trend that Russian citizens in the west be target of retaliation soon.

Canada is talking about forceable contract termination for Russian professional sports players in the country.

A very dangerous precedent for global business and economic freedom. Separate rule of law for different passport holders.

Russia is a small player in global economy. Imagine the ripple effect that your online business cannot do procurement from China in the future.

Business owners have to prepare for the worst.
 

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Biden the Bully. What an image that is.
Not to derail into politics or take this out of context of a post which I don't know enough about to assess, but seems sensibly written, but what do you call
'if you post misinformation online you should be banned from all social media platforms'
'spreading a misleading narrative online that undermines public trust in government institutions=terrorism'
'we must protect vaxinated people from unvaxinated people'
'winter of severe illness and death for unvaxinated'

if not bullying (or a lot worse)?
 

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the fact that people can't figure out this a proxy war for USA is unreal to me. but maybe I'm wrong. maybe this is worth people fighting for. I haven't seen a compelling argument. Only people comparing Putin to Hitler. Maybe they are right.
What's a proxy war?
 
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Xeon

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Iran does it. Saudi Arabia. Russia. China. France. UK. US. African and South American countries do it to each other.

It wouldn't surprise me if Israel and India do it too.

There's a big difference. All these countries you mentioned only have fights with their neighbours. It's not uncommon. Do they go all the way to the other side of the world to meddle in other countries' affairs? Across oceans and continents? Vietnam war? And the countless wars in the mid east?
What are the losses to the US if it doesn't take part in all these? Can the US perhaps be more like Canada or New Zealand?


Even with your graphic about all the bases in Europe, you're forgetting that we have less bases and troops there now than we did 50 years ago.

Maybe the US military started to find itself overstretched? It's draining $$$? Maybe the sudden withdrawal of troops in Afghanistan is to regroup and get ready for Russia? Because it's such a coincidence that, right after the troops in Afghanistan withdrew, the US and UK stepped up their meddling in Ukraine and Russia's issue? I see Biden and Boris on the news daily during that period leading up to the Russian invasion. Maybe Ukraine is the 52th state?


How the heck are we supposed to invade Russia and roll on through to China with 80,000 troops? Nonsense

Get NATO to fight first, and when Russia is worn out, US steps in for the showtime.


Russia has committed three invasions since then. What consequences have they faced? How come only Black Dragon seems upset about Russia's recent history?

Invading another country is wrong, but at least they didn't come up with a thousand excuses about fighting for "freedom and democracy".

Their lack of hypocrisy makes them less repulsive and disgusting. In the case of another country, it's always along the lines of "hey buddy, we care for you, we want to protect you, and we're going to invade your country and take your resources for your own good".


But you keep wanting to sell us on the idea that they are the aggrieved party? Like they're the ones getting bullied? This is got to be a joke, and it's a bad time for jokes.

Ukraine is the sacrificial lamb, Russia is the misunderstood party, NATO and the US are the bullies. Again, is NATO and EU serious about admitting Ukraine into these two organisations? Or is it to goad and bait Russia into a war?

Biden the Bully. What an image that is.

Biden isn't a bully. The ones controlling him are. I wonder who are these guys though.
 

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Canada is talking about forceable contract termination for Russian professional sports players in the country.
Canada is a joke under JT. He is a virtue signalling fool. They are also removing Russian vodka from the shelves, like that will stop them! He is damn good at marginalizing groups, and then bragging about how that is somehow uniting us.

I hope that Russians living in Canada are not targetted on the streets soon. Canada has a very large Ukrainian population, especially my gown province of Alberta, and I hope that they are all doing ok during this.

One thing I find fishy is how quickly the media jumped on the "save Ukraine, demonize Russia" narrative from the get go. This is the same media that pushed blatant lies about the whole pandemic narrative, and every other major recent topic. They have proven themselves to be absolutely untrustworthy and anything posted by them I am pretty sure is close to completely false.

No matter what happens I can almost guarantee you that the Ukranian citizens are being screwed big time and are the ones who are going to end up hurting (and murdered). The Russians citizens are also going to end up hurting big time. That's how it goes. The "overlords" push their agenda and citizens get destroyed over it, and the legacy media pushes their lies and sells it to the rest of the world.
 

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Just because the media lied about things during the covid lockdowns doesn't mean Russia is justified in invading another country. If CNN said tomorrow that MJ DeMarco was the best entrepreneur ever, half of you would suddenly turn on him just to be on the opposing side. Kind of crazy how many Americans relate everything that happens in the world back to their own media and the disputes between their political parties. I'm aware that's a generalizing statement and not representative of all Americans posting in this thread or on twitter.

The US/NATO security blanket has allowed a lot of countries to thrive democratically since WW2. That calculation is being weighed up now in capitals around the world. Here is the Irish co/leader speaking today about how we need to increase defense spending. We are a neutral country.

 
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Just because the media lied about things during the covid lockdowns doesn't mean Russia is justified in invading another country. If CNN said tomorrow that MJ DeMarco was the best entrepreneur ever, half of you would suddenly turn on him just to be on the opposing side. Kind of crazy how many Americans relate everything that happens in the world back to their own media and the disputes between their political parties. I'm aware that's a generalizing statement and not representative of all Americans posting in this thread or on twitter.

The US/NATO security blanket has allowed a lot of countries to thrive democratically since WW2. That calculation is being weighed up now in capitals around the world. Here is the Irish co/leader speaking today about how we need to increase defense spending. We are a neutral country.

It's not just the lies from the pandemic though. People are looking at everything the media has been saying now, going back decades, in a new light.

You can't blame people for asking questions when the cycle appears to be starting again, and it doesn't mean they condone what Russia is doing.

I'm not American either.
 

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Canada is a joke under JT. He is a virtue signalling fool. They are also removing Russian vodka from the shelves, like that will stop them! He is damn good at marginalizing groups, and then bragging about how that is somehow uniting us.

I hope that Russians living in Canada are not targetted on the streets soon. Canada has a very large Ukrainian population, especially my gown province of Alberta, and I hope that they are all doing ok during this.

One thing I find fishy is how quickly the media jumped on the "save Ukraine, demonize Russia" narrative from the get go. This is the same media that pushed blatant lies about the whole pandemic narrative, and every other major recent topic. They have proven themselves to be absolutely untrustworthy and anything posted by them I am pretty sure is close to completely false.

No matter what happens I can almost guarantee you that the Ukranian citizens are being screwed big time and are the ones who are going to end up hurting (and murdered). The Russians citizens are also going to end up hurting big time. That's how it goes. The "overlords" push their agenda and citizens get destroyed over it, and the legacy media pushes their lies and sells it to the rest of the world.
I think the risk to Russians in North America is pretty low since the Russian government is not attacking the US or Canada directly, but some people are incredibly stupid, like those who targeted random Asians post-covid or that murderer who killed the Sikh man here in Arizona after 9/11, so who's to say. Banning Russian vodka sales is stupid and useless.

Ukraine has been winning the propaganda war because the Ukrainian government knows that is the only war they can conceivably win. The Ukrainian government has known the possibility of war since the Crimean annexation and as the smaller country with a smaller military, a lot of the focus has been on winning hearts and minds for them and against their aggressor and there is nothing wrong with that approach. They are undoubtedly winning the propaganda war, perhaps even in Russia (they hacked Russian TV and have been actively spreading Ukrainian viewpoints and misinformation within the Russosphere and VK) but I do not think it will be enough to change the outcome on the ground unless diplomacy and negotiations can end the war.

The Russian ground forces are employing the same tactics against Ukrainian cities that they used against Syrian opposition cities with devastating results and high civilian deaths. I don't see any way that Ukraine can have a favorable end to this war except at the negotiating table.
 

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Sure, in terms of how the war is reported, there are lies. Russia hasn’t so far targetted the civilian population - at least not in any major way. But in my opinion those are small, insignificant lies compared to the global picture.
I don't think the media lying in their reporting on the war is a small, insignificant issue at all.
 
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I don't think the media lying in their reporting on the war is a small, insignificant issue at all.
Intentional misinformation in wartime is not at all new. Countries have often made up shit to fool friends and foes in order to gain an advantage.

From this article: The Secret British Campaign to Persuade the US to Enter WWII
In June of 1941, Americans read about an extraordinary British mission into Nazi-occupied France. Newspapers, including the Baltimore Sun and New York Post, detailed how the British parachuted into an airfield with tommy guns and hand grenades, overpowered the guards and destroyed about 30 planes. All of the team members made it back to Britain alive via torpedo boats, along with 40 German prisoners in tow. It was an incredible story.

It was also completely made-up.

Unbeknownst to the United States, the British foreign intelligence service known as MI6 had planted the story in the press as part of a covert influence campaign to convince the country to enter World War II. With Hitler aggressively gaining ground across the continent and dropping bombs over London, British Prime Minister Winston Churchill had been anxiously lobbying Franklin D. Roosevelt for reinforcements against the Germans, but America firmly resisted being drawn into another bloody war on the European continent. In May 1940, after the Nazis invaded the Low Countries and France, a Gallup poll reported that only 7% of Americans thought the U.S. should declare war on Germany. In April 1941, the aviation hero Charles Lindbergh and the America First Committee led a massively popular campaign against U.S. entry into WWII, a conflict many Americans didn’t see as winnable.
 

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How come only Black Dragon seems upset about Russia's recent history?

That’s a rather unfair statement. Black Dragon is acting like a lunatic out with a weekend pass promoting nuclear war. He’s claiming to be willing to sacrifice his kids for $100k to teach kidnapers a lesson. Most likely a theoretical statement for him. Because dare you not ask if he actually has kids.

I am upset with Russian actions, with Putin. I have family in Ukraine, and during my call yesterday I could hear the sirens going off to warn people to hide. I feel the pain and stress of this stupid war. But I’m not naive to think that it’s black and white. And I don’t need a nutcase here telling me what I think (another early “favorite” post by Black Dragon).

You can be angry with Putin and acknowledge his position at the same time. If you can’t, brainwashing worked.

That’s why I hate this thread. It’s not educational, it’s garbage that ruins relationships. Hard positions and propaganda posts. I used to follow BD and now he’s on my ignore list.

If you ask me, this thread is just like politics/religion debate now and shouldn’t even be on this forum. Everyone is suddenly a military and history expert.
 

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That’s a rather unfair statement. Black Dragon is acting like a lunatic out with a weekend pass promoting nuclear war. He’s claiming to be willing to sacrifice his kids for $100k to teach kidnapers a lesson. Most likely a theoretical statement for him. Because dare you not ask if he actually has kids.

I am upset with Russian actions, with Putin. I have family in Ukraine, and during my call yesterday I could hear the sirens going off to warn people to hide. I feel the pain and stress of this stupid war. But I’m not naive to think that it’s black and white. And I don’t need a nutcase here telling me what I think (another early “favorite” post by Black Dragon).

You can be angry with Putin and acknowledge his position at the same time. If you can’t, brainwashing worked.

That’s why I hate this thread. It’s not educational, it’s garbage that ruins relationships. Hard positions and propaganda posts. I used to follow BD and now he’s on my ignore list.

If you ask me, this thread is just like politics/religion debate now and shouldn’t even be on this forum. Everyone is suddenly a military and history expert.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Politics ruins families because of exactly what you said.
 
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Invading another country is categorically wrong and cannot be excused it will inevitably lead to many innocent lives lost. I have seen no one on this thread say this is ok , so that whole line of argument is just a straw man. What Putin/Biden/USA/West/Europe are doing is wrong.

If you truly care about Ukraine and its people and understand the utter devastation that is happening and is about to happen you should be pushing for an immediate cease fire from all sides, this is the best way to avoid further loss of life and misery. If I am a Ukrainian I would be shocked that my leadership is not calling for a cease fire. The fact I see almost no leaders pushing for a cease fire shows that this is a war that all parties want at the leadership level. This has the potential to spiral into something bigger.

Instead I see people cheerleading the sending of Antitank/Stingers/Weapons to Ukraine, this will only prolong the inevitable misery and destruction of Ukraine, Ukraine cannot win this conflict without direct Western militaries going in there and fighting the Russians.

The propaganda war has worked beautifully for Ukraine and it's their right to use it as they see fit, but it may backfire on them if they actually start to believe it. The bulk of their army is about to be encircled within days in the east, Russians are stacking convoys miles long on the open, which can only mean they don't fear attack from the air. The Russian army and leadership are all in on this one, looks like they will level cities if they have to.
 
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