The Worldwide C0VlD-19 Coronavirus Pandemic Discussion Thread...

[sparechange]

Population control at it's finest


The interviews with everyone are hilarious

 

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[Vigilante]

Trump Says Coronavirus Cure Cannot ‘Be Worse Than the Problem Itself’ (Published 2020)

The president, who has watched the economy plunge amid social distancing measures, says restrictions will be reassessed.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Ludachris]

Furthermore does flattening the curve save THAT MANY more lives? Not to sound heartless, but is one person's life worth 10,000 out of work? Would they have died anyway? The economy suffers the consequences of the policy whether they live or die. That is an ethical and moral dilemma in the highest form.

I don't know that there will be a consensus on that, as some people have different levels of comfort when it comes to the loss of life. This is certainly going to bring everyone's view on that to the forefront. The world is about to get really cold, and many will be tested.

 

[MoneyDoc]

I don't know that there will be a consensus on that, as some people have different levels of comfort when it comes to the loss of life. This is certainly going to bring everyone's view on that to the forefront. The world is about to get really cold, and many will be tested.

But this virus isn't the only thing that contributes to loss of life.

 

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[Vigilante]

I’m getting skeptical

 

[MJ DeMarco]

I’m getting skeptical

Of what? You have to be a bit more detailed.

The media?
Government response?
The WHO?
The CDC?

 

[Lucky Lu]

I’m getting skeptical

About? The pandemic itself?

 

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[GIlman]

Trump Says Coronavirus Cure Cannot ‘Be Worse Than the Problem Itself’ (Published 2020)

The president, who has watched the economy plunge amid social distancing measures, says restrictions will be reassessed.

www.nytimes.com

It will be interesting to see in the next 10-14 days how attitudes shift one way or the other. It’s hard to see at this point how NYC, WA, and/or CA don’t become tipping point sh*t shows. Public opinion appears to have shifted hard in Italy and abroad as real #’s pile up in their borders. Anyone from Italy On here who could offer insight into this.

I’m very torn on what the best solution is. Each is painful to deal with in their own respective ways.

 

[Vigilante]

Of what? You have to be a bit more detailed.

The media?
Government response?
The WHO?
The CDC?

I am starting to question as to the catastrophe that is being inflicted on the economy and if the trade-off is known or if it is speculative. The loss of life in Wuhan China was not even close to the catastrophe that was projected.

in the United States, the partisan responses to the pandemic seem to illustrate that it’s more of an ideological strategy than a medical one.

You have the capitalists saying all is well, and you have the liberals saying the world is ending. The truth is somewhere in between.

I’m growing skeptical as I wonder if the solution is more harmful than the cause.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

For those of us in AZ, don't get a false sense of security.

Looks like we've only tested 352 people.

The state health department's reporting is absolutely dismal.

 

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[GIlman]

I am starting to question as to the catastrophe that is being inflicted on the economy and if the trade-off is known or if it is speculative. The loss of life in Wuhan China was not even close to the catastrophe that was projected.

in the United States, the partisan responses to the pandemic seem to illustrate that it’s more of an ideological strategy than a medical one.

You have the capitalists saying all is well, and you have the liberals saying the world is ending. The truth is somewhere in between.

I’m growing skeptical that the solution is more harmful than the cause.

Wuhan took drastic measures to curb it, as did large swaths of China, so we can’t say if projections were wrong or just averted due to extreme action. Your point is well taken though. What we really need is a country to do absolutely nothing as a control of inaction. It’s hard otherwise to say what impact draconian measures make in the short or long term.

 

[Ludachris]

I think in the UK that was modelled at causing something like 500,000 deaths

I wonder what the models have been here in the US - we all know they've been running these models based on the data. These models won't be shown to us of course. Curious what the estimated loss of life would be if we did what @Kak suggested, directing everyone thought to be at highest risk of death or severe illness to self quarantine and give them aid, but pushing everyone else to go back to work. Are the models saying it would it be in the hundreds of thousands in the US? Would it be in the millions? Wish we could see those projections.

 

[biophase]

I am starting to question as to the catastrophe that is being inflicted on the economy and if the trade-off is known or if it is speculative. The loss of life in Wuhan China was not even close to the catastrophe that was projected.

This is probably because they took extreme measures to curtail the spread. Nobody here in the USA was talking about how bad the China economy was during their quarantining. I'm sure it was just as bad. My factories in China are very understanding of the issues going on in the USA as they have gone through it. Ask any of the factories to pause your order, let you pay later, cancel an order and they will all say "yes, they understand."

 

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[Ludachris]

But this virus isn't the only thing that contributes to loss of life.

True, but it has the ability to be the single biggest contributing factor in the shortest period of time when you start comparing the options. Or have there been estimates and/or models that conflict with that assumption?

 

[biophase]

I’m growing skeptical as I wonder if the solution is more harmful than the cause.

I think this depends on whether you feel that there is an acceptable loss of life sacrifice in order to save the economy.

 

[Ludachris]

I think this depends on whether you feel that there is an acceptable loss of life sacrifice in order to save the economy.

That's why I'm curious what the models have shown. You know the nation's leaders have run through different models based on the available data. If they shared those with us all, I wonder what the votes would be for the best approach.

 

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[Vigilante]

I think this depends on whether you feel that there is an acceptable loss of life sacrifice in order to save the economy.

Catch 22, right? As with any virus, there will be loss of life. Mortality rate among the most vulnerable that are susceptible to any aberration. I'd never choose death over life, but if you literally use that litmus test, this is then just a dry run for an annual shut down.

 

[Vigilante]

For those of us in AZ, don't get a false sense of security.

Looks like we've only tested 352 people.

The state health department's reporting is absolutely dismal.

And THAT might be the real problem... we have no idea how many people have/had this. My own personal story... for the 3 weeks leading up to the forum event in February, I have never been as sick in my LIFE as I was then. For just over three weeks. Brutal. Tested, non-flu. Hypothetically, this was earlier than known virus in the USA, but I am in regular contact with people from the heart of the manufacturing districts in China. So... is it possible I had it (and my whole family, inflicted with the same shit in January). Brutal. Crazy sick. Unidentified. Antibiotics ineffective. Checked off several of the symptoms (in retrospect) from this. This knocked me out. I remember the feeling (as I communicated to my wife) that I would never get better. It was that bad, that long.

MOST PEOPLE won't die from it, even if they get it. Now I am not suggesting anyone run out and get it... but I am taking a much harder look at the tradeoff. Forecasts for 30% unemployment. Would that kid be better off EMPLOYED but SICK for a few weeks? Maybe.

I know the DEAD GUY wouldn't be better off. I am just starting to awaken after tons of research on this that we maybe still don't know what we are dealing with, good or bad.

A doctor from my old home state, aware of how sick we were just before the meetup - messaged me this morning for the details of our illness that struck the whole household.

 

[ChrisV]

You have the capitalists saying all is well, and you have the liberals saying the world is ending. The truth is somewhere in between.

Well there's one nuance to take into consideration. The Rural/Urban divide. Republicans tend to live in rural areas, while Democrats tend to be city dwellers. Cities are getting hit much much harder. And that's where all the liberals hang out.




Effects of Population Density on the Spread of Disease

Liberalism as a political ideology actually correlates with population density. Heavily populated areas are getting hitch much worse.

Is Population Density the Key to Understanding Voting Behavior?

Why do cities vote blue while rural areas vote red?

medium.com

Not saying politics aren't also a factor, but the fact that liberals are closer to ground zero is a big factor imo.

 

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[GIlman]

Catch 22, right? As with any virus, there will be loss of life. Mortality rate among the most vulnerable that are susceptible to any aberration. I'd never choose death over life, but if you literally use that litmus test, this is then just a dry run for an annual shut down.

Yes, that’s a reasonable argument. But the question in my own mind is, are we willing through inaction for the death rate to be 3-5x greater per 1000 infected due to lack of medical resources. This includes both young and old.

Outcomes are simply worse and leads to much higher percent infected dying based on data from both China and Italy. We do take lots of action to mitigate death from other causes, the example that been thrown around is drunk driving. There are lots of laws, restrictions, etc to help try and curb these deaths too.

I am not arguing for or against any approach, I’m still sorting out my own position in my mind.

 

[Kak]

I think this depends on whether you feel that there is an acceptable loss of life sacrifice in order to save the economy.

Not even that though. I laid out my town’s scenario. The local economy is completely halted and getting worse every day with lasting damage. ALL TO FLATTEN A CURVE.

Yet we literally have more hospitals than hospitalized coronavirus patients.

In our town in particular, business as usual would have caused no more deaths.

If you go around flattening curves that don’t need flattened you are going to flatten the economy too.

 

[Vigilante]

Not even that though. I laid out my town’s scenario. The local economy is completely halted and getting worse every day with lasting damage. ALL TO FLATTEN A CURVE.

Yet we literally have more hospitals than hospitalized coronavirus patients.

In our town in particular, business as usual would have caused no more deaths.

Kyle you remember how sick I was?

 

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[MTEE1985]

For those of us in AZ, don't get a false sense of security.

Looks like we've only tested 352 people.

The state health department's reporting is absolutely dismal.

I believe that number is only for the State Lab and does not include private labs. Of 352 state tests, 41 confirmed. If we extrapolate the same tested to positive ratio from the 193 confirmed cases via private labs we would get 2,238 tested. Still pitiful that out of 7+ million we have tested maybe 2600 or .0037%.

Arizona Department of Health Services

Health and Wellness for All Arizonans

azdhs.gov

I firmly believe AZ is amongst those states that has buried its head in the sand with this and yet touting that we’re doing a good job containing it.

 

[ChrisV]

In our town in particular, business as usual would have caused no more deaths.

If you go around flattening curves that don’t need flattened you are going to flatten the economy too.

Yea, this is absurd. Places like NYC are a different story, but not everywhere is getting hit like that. Not sure why you guys even have a lockdown.

 

[GIlman]

Kyle you remember how sick I was?

I saw recently they are fast tracking a test through the FDA to determine immunity to coronavirus, I.e. you previously got infected and have recovered. This will be invaluable, and then you can know for sure one way or the other.

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

for the 3 weeks leading up to the forum event in February, I have never been as sick in my LIFE as I was then. For just over three weeks. Brutal. Tested, non-flu. Hypothetically, this was earlier than known virus in the USA, but I am in regular contact with people from the heart of the manufacturing districts in China. So... is it possible I had it (and my whole family, inflicted with the same shit in January). Brutal. Crazy sick. Unidentified. Antibiotics ineffective. Checked off several of the symptoms (in retrospect) from this. This knocked me out. I remember the feeling (as I communicated to my wife) that I would never get better. It was that bad, that long.

That's been my theory I echoed privately... that this has been here for months. Considering some very high profile people have it (politicians, athletes) it leads to the idea that this isn't new, but been here since January ... and a good % of the population already has it. To be honest, I've felt pretty poorly since our event in February. Not sick, but not normal. And I live with some high risk people.

 

[Ernman]

A new virus comes around and suddenly we're supposed to shut down life as we know it indefinitely?

But it's not "indefinite." The idea behind social distancing and shelter in place is to flatten the infection curve so medical facilities can try to keep up until the vaccine is available (12-18 months). The combination of vaccinations and exposure/survivor related immunities will eventually create herd immunity and we can get back to life more like what we knew. I know a year sounds like a long time and most likely we would not "lock down" the country for a year. But making some changes to our life for a while will gives us time and limited impact on medical capacity. Sure there will be surges of infections, but if we work together we can lessen the impact of those surges. We can also move resources around as needed to handle local surges as they occur. The critical thing here is to try to NOT crash our medical capacity.

It would be really nice if we could identify "at risk" groups. But with a virus nothing is cut and dry. We're learning of young with no pre-existing conditions needing the same medical care as older folks. We're also learning of the long term health damage this virus can cause for survivors. We are all "at risk."

The good news is we have the ability to get through this if we work together. It's not going to be fun or fast...but it is NOT indefinite.

 

[ChrisV]

But it's not "indefinite."

Yea, I mean Italy is already starting to see a decline, only 12 days after the lockdown.



Let's see what happens.

 

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[Ernman]

View attachment 31436

View attachment 31437


Population control at it's finest


The interviews with everyone are hilarious

Such idiots would be funny if it weren't for the risks they present to countless other innocent people.

 

[RazorCut]

Ok we (the UK) are now in full lockdown.

From tonight, people in Britain will be allowed to leave their homes for only “very limited purposes” - shopping for basic necessities; for one form of exercise a day; for any medical need; and to travel to and from work when “absolutely necessary”

• People are warned not to meet friends or family members who they do not live with
• Shopping is only permitted for essentials like food and medicine, and people are advised to do it “as little as you can”
• Police have powers to enforce the rules, including through fines and dispersing gatherings
• All shops selling non-essential goods, such as clothing and electronic stores, are ordered to close
• Libraries, playgrounds, outdoor gyms and places of worship are to close
• All gatherings of more than two people in public - excluding people you live with - are banned
• All social events, including weddings and baptisms are banned
• Funerals are not included in the new restrictions
• Parks will remain open for exercise but gatherings will be dispersed