Why is it OK for you to STEAL from me?

[JAJT]

People do it for the same reason they skip television ads, sit down at a theater 10 minutes late to avoid the commercials, change radio stations when music isn't playing, opt out of email marketing and put "no junk mail" signs on their mail boxes.

If you count not viewing an ad as stealing then I don't know a single person on this planet who isn't guilty.

I'm not trying to debate the morality of it, I'm just saying it seems like a better use of energy to focus on the people that do view ads rather than getting upset at those who don't.

 

[Mbc]

@healthstatus this post does seem out of character for you.

You're seeing this only from your point of view. Imagine if I'm paying you on a CPM basis to show my ads, I actually want people to use adblockers because it filters out the people who won't usually buy anyway. What if I told you you're stealing money from me by charging me views to people you know are very unlikely to buy anything from my ads? Not that I think it's stealing, I'm just saying there's 2 sides to this, 3 sides actually and you're only seeing it from yours.

Right now I have adblocker disabled most of the time because I want to see ads. But before I knew about IM I was just fed up of annoying pop ups and ads that wasted my time. You can't be mad at people because other advertisers pissed them off...well I mean clearly you can but it's not very productive.

I think the best, as others have mentioned, is to just let people know you provide them with free content thanks to ads and ask them to disable the ads. I think 90% of people using adblocker would say "oh gee I didn't know that for sure I want you to get paid" and disable adblocker.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

@healthstatus you're asking consumers not to be consumers. You're asking consumers to think. You're asking consumers to violate their expectations of a normal web experience. In other words, you're asking for a miracle, like asking a politician to clean out the welfare rolls to save those evil rich business owners.

If you want to beat the ad blockers, mention it on a splash page and go to war. (I think this "solution" is like throwing out the baby with the bath water.)
"This website is supported to sponsorships and ads. To view this content, please turn OFF your ad blocker."

Even this forum has such a plugin.


http://xenforo.com/community/resources/rellect-adblock-detector.2312/

Yes but the average consumer doesn't know that, and the results wouldn't be any different if the movie theater operated differently. YOU decided to make a movie theater/website that relies solely on ad revenue, it isn't the consumer's job to study your business model, it is their job to be consumers, and for us as business owners to decide and figure out how to best extract money from them.

The best analogy to me is the movie theater example provided by @Coalission .

Your movie theater doors are all open and content is freely accessible. While there is NO SIGNAGE that says *FREE* there is also no signage that says "AD SUPPORTED". You then get angry when the movie theater is full but no one sticks around to watch the post movie ads. To ask consumers to figure out your revenue model is an asinine proposition.

One thing I learned a long time ago is you can't change general consumer behavior -- you can only change yours.

I also view some things as a cost of doing business.

BTW: I don't use an ad blocker and actually enjoy seeing ads. Popups, not so much.

 

[Runum]

Isn't this part of the commandment of control?

If you don't have enough control of your business model then change the model or the business.

 

[Runum]

I am experimenting with cookie and ad blockers myself but I have not been to your website. I have to know what they can and cannot block. To me it's all part of business warfare. Strategic. Point, counterpoint. Websites have not been transparent and forthcoming about what information they are collecting and how they are using it. Consumers feel violated so they take defensive measures. Business owners offer "free" content that really isn't free. It's all part of the marketing game.

 

[snowbank]

This is a really strange post for someone who's been on the forum for so long.

You're offering your customers something they don't want(ads), and some of them are responding to you offering it to them by blocking them.

You just have to calculate what you'll make with ads knowing that x% of your audience will block ads, and decide if you should be focusing your monetization efforts elsewhere.

I have a blog that I don't monetize, so I understand spending a lot of time on something and not making money on it. However, if I offered something and visitors were telling me they didn't want to see something I was offering, I'd figure out what they DID want to see, and give it to them that way.

 

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[Gsuz]

I think you're expecting too much from the average internet user.
I don't come to your site with my adblocker enabled to steal your content, but I come to your site and have my adblocker enabled, because other sites are overextending the boundaries of online ads by using splashs, interstitials, overlays and god knows what.

Just put banners behind the ads saying something along the lines "The costs to run this site are financed by ads. Unfortunately, you're using an adblocker. Please consider disabling your adblocker on this site, if you want to enjoy free high-quality content in the future. Thank you"

I know that I disabled Adblock on many sites that I like using and that made me aware of the fact that they are using ads to keep the site running.

 

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[DennisD]

(Now that I've had the opportunity to read the rest of the thread...)

Is it ETHICAL to:

• Watch TV and then channel surf during the commercials?
• Listen to radio and then change channels during the ads?
• Fast forward through podcast ads?
• Hold superbowl parties making it impossible to view ACTUAL ad reach?

Ultimately it's not about RIGHT or WRONG.
It's about human behavior, and trying to fight human behavior when you're living on earth is an OLD WORLD IDEA.

It's an OLD WORLD IDEA.

It's the Brits using linear firing squads instead of guerrilla warfare,
It's being Henry Frick instead of being Larry Page.
It's buying CDs instead of downloading spotify.
It's using the USPS instead of using automated drones.

John D Rockefeller fought his entire life to hold onto his monopoly.
He became most profitable when it was officially dissolved.
Instead of owning 100% one OLD BORING company,
he owned pieces of hundreds of smaller ones.

Is ad-blocker unethical? immoral? "stealing?"
Maybe.
Doesn't really matter though.

It's an old world complaint in a new world economy.
Working against the flow of human behavior is counterproductive.

 

[AroundTheWorld]

If you are going to be in this game, then know the playing field.
Adblocker exists, and people like it, and people will continue to use it.
There is nothing you can do to change that.


I'm going to force a little commercial break into this thread.
Your regular program "Adblocker" will resume momentarily.

Wow @healthstatus . You do seem really bitter.
It is going to be REALLY difficult for you to get anywhere if you are carrying this with you.

Figure out a way to get rid of that bitterness, STAT. There are threads
on the forum that touch on that issue, along with the issue of anger.

And now, back to your program.

 

[Runum]

Similar to @zen******* "Do you want to be right or do you want to be rich?" argument.

 

[Sean DeSilva]

Hi, I mean no disrespect in my reply, but doesn't theft imply criminality? I installed an ad blocker because I was tired of the constant pop-up messages I was getting.

 

[LibertyForMe]

I mean...I went to your site and signed up with my adblocker on.

I use adblocker for a couple reasons. First, I hate when I click a link on a website and it causes a pop-up to happen as well as taking me to my intended destination. I have no desire to see a pop-up. If I want to subscribe to an email list then I will subscribe to it.

Also, I don't ever buy anything online through ads. Like, I have never purchased anything by clicking through an ad. I tune them out. If I am going to buy something online I research it on google and amazon and then make a decision. I am not willy nilly with my money. So there is not much point for me as a consumer to see ads, because I am not going to act on them anyways.

Third, lots of ads look like tabloids and I don't feel like seeing that garbage. No, I don't enjoy being ambushed by some spammy half naked woman or testosterone boosted guy.

That is just my opinion on the matter.

 

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[jon.a]

I'm running an ad blocker and a pop up blocker, I think. It's been so long, I don't remember for sure. I installed them to stop pop ups. I really dislike popups. Ads are almost invisible to me.

I revisit sites that provide me value and avoid those that seem to be all about providing income for the site owner.
Until this thread, I just assumed that publishers worked a numbers game and shoot for many visitors to provide some acceptable level of income.
The attitude of the OP struck me as selfish (maybe too strong).

Maybe if I expand this thought to op-tins, I can be a little more clear.
I understand that if I opt-in, I'm adding myself to a sales funnel. And a list that might even be sold to other marketers. If, I find enough value I'll still opt-in. (Bobby Casey's site for example)

If I find a site that makes me feel like my only purpose in life is the provide an income stream for the owner, I'll leave fairly quickly.

I'm not explaining this very well, but I'm finding the OP's attitude disturbing and too self centered. I do applaud you for openly asking the question though.

All that said, I wont bother visiting the site in question. I guess I'm not welcome.

 

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[smarty]

well folks, it's story time ( following @AroundTheWorld ):

There is an ancient Chinese story about a young man named Han Xin who had a reputation as a skilled Kung Fu fighter. One day when Han was walking through the streets of his city, he was stopped by two men who had heard of his skill. The pair challenged him to a fight to the death. Han tried to decline the challenge, but the men would not let him walk away. They insisted he must either fight or crawl like a dog through the leader’s outspread legs. Although to the Chinese this is an unspeakable humiliation, Han Xin chose to crawl rather than fight. Word of his humiliation and his cowardice spread quickly through the city. He was laughed at openly, yet he never once offered any excuse or explanation for his seemingly spineless action. Later in his life, he revealed himself to be one of the most formidable and fearless warriors in the history of China. To him, the pair of unschooled ruffians had posed no threat. It was simply that they were unworthy adversaries. In his heart he knew himself to be a fearless warrior. He did not care what anyone else thought. Han’s Thick Face was a meek and cowardly facade, adopted to save himself the trouble of killing two such inconsequential hoodlums.

[taken from the book "Thick Face, Black Heart"]

Moral of the story: There is a times when you have to fight, but there are times when you have to surrender or change approach

 

[AroundTheWorld]

There must be something in the fastlane forum air.

This is my second time posting this today:

The Scholar and a Zen Master.

The Scholar had an extensive background in Buddhist Studies and was an expert on the Nirvana Sutra. He came to study with the master and after making the customary bows, asked her to teach him Zen. Then, he began to talk about his extensive doctrinal background and rambled on and on about the many sutras he had studied.

The master listened patiently and then began to make tea. When it was ready, she poured the tea into the scholar's cup until it began to overflow and run all over the floor. The scholar saw what was happening and shouted, "Stop, stop! The cup is full; you can't get anymore in."

The master stopped pouring and said: "You are like this cup; you are full of ideas about Buddha's Way. You come and ask for teaching, but your cup is full; I can't put anything in. Before I can teach you, you'll have to empty your cup."

(copied from: http://www.prairiewindzen.org/emptying_your_cup.html )

 

[mayana]

No, you're getting slaughtered for being righteously indignant, which is usually a pretty poor use of one's time.

Love this.

@healthstatus Someone mentioned this briefly, but I want to stress it a little bit more. I don't think that a visitor that doesn't view your ads presents NO value to you. I'm not buying that.

• ANY visitor that ends up on your site by clicking through from a Google search, whether they view your ads or not, helps your search rankings.
  
• They might really like something that you have on your site and share it on their social media accounts (you don't know that these people aren't social influencers)
• As someone previously mentioned, they could be a member of the press, or a blogger, etc, wanting to write about, and share links to your site

I don't think that people who turn adblocker off are "stealing" in the exact same sense that a shoplifter steals. I can buy the argument that it might be SLIGHTLY unethical... for example, I feel a little guilty when I am watching a t.v. show on Hulu or whatever, and I check my e-mail or do something else in another browser window while the ads play. It just is what it is, though.

The key is: If it's an important part of a revenue model, it's the content-producer's responsibility to create such great content that people don't care about watching ads. Not the other way around. It's getting to be a tough way to make money, especially now (which is why a lot of people are encouraging you to look for other sources of revenue, not saying that you don't have them already).

Television shows do this by making a season-premiere so anticipated that everyone wants to watch it live, when it is impossible to skip or fast-forward ads. Like so exciting that people have to watch every second LIVE. Tough to do.

The issue with the soap thread wasn't necessarily that the idea was stolen (any number of people "steal" or "copy" business ideas every day), but that the rules of behavior that have been established for THIS COMMUNITY were broken, so it's not the same at all. I like how this forum is moderated, and it's rare to find an online place where you can feel comfortable expressing yourself without all the trolls and crazies. (This takes a lot of work - thanks mods

 

[snowbank]

I just want to interrupt this program to say, wow, cannot believe this thread is still happening.

That is all— no one needs to pay me for this advertisement.

 

[throttleforward]

Just to play devil's advocate @healthstatus , do you or have you ever fast forwarded through commercials on your DVR? If you were at a friend's house, and they were fast forwarding through commercials, would you consider them a freeloader (sure, they might pay for cable, but that cost doesn't cover the actual cost of providing the content and infrastructure)? What if they old-school taped a free over-the-air broadcast, and fast forwarded through those commercials? Do you feel guilty for changing the radio station when commercials are on? Have you ever read a free newspaper and not looked at every page - skipping over the full page ads and only reading the free content?

I believe it's all about reasonable expectations. My belief is that on the internet, once the code leaves your server, you no longer have a reasonable expectation that consumers will consume your content in the way you wish them to. If you wish to charge for your content, you may. If you don't, then users have the right to consume your content as you've delivered it, including without safeguards against ad blocking. You can only expect your consumer to consume your content in the manner you require them to. If you require them to pay, or require them to view various methods of advertising, then that's reasonable and the consumer can choose to consume as you wish or leave.

Another analogy might be movie theaters. It would be well within their right to deny entry to patrons who are not seated by the time the commercials begin playing. But they can't complain that people show up late and don't consume the ads if they don't require them to - it's not reasonable.

 

[Coalission]

Movie theaters make their money from selling tickets. Then they said aha! I have a bunch of people here sitting bored, lets show some ads and make some EXTRA money.

Yes but the average consumer doesn't know that, and the results wouldn't be any different if the movie theater operated differently. YOU decided to make a movie theater/website that relies solely on ad revenue, it isn't the consumer's job to study your business model, it is their job to be consumers, and for us as business owners to decide and figure out how to best extract money from them.

 

[PeteLife]

Its just one of the many the cost of doing business ...

If you can't handle it, change your structure or get into something else.

Reality is that people DON'T CARE about you, your revenue, or your feelings.
Every entrepreneur need to know and understand that.

 

[AllenCrawley]

Nobody in the thread has gone, "dude that sucks you might be losing thousands of dollars a month, I wonder how big a problem this is? Here's a post about this on another site I saw". Nope, none of that, I am just a bitter old money grubber with a screwed up business model!!!

Well some of these responses could be because people didn't take to kindly to being called a thieving rat, lol. We're friends and I understand where you're coming from but you pretty much set the tone of this thread from the beginning.

I actually see opportunity here in relation to a fix for site owners like you.

I will point out that I'm very surprised so many people here use adblock. You are all marketers and as such should be watching what other marketers are doing. I admit I was an adblocker but once I understood the value of the ads for myself (not just for the site owner - yep I can be selfish) I disabled the blocker.

I see the majority don't believe this is stealing. If I'm being honest I'm not sure I buy that argument either. I have a hard time connecting the soap thread issue to your issue. Maybe that's flawed thinking, maybe not. Lots of us did call what happen to bio stealing but I wouldn't say it was illegal but I do understand why you would consider it theft.

 

[DennisD]

Love this.

Someone mentioned this briefly, but I want to stress it a little bit more. I don't think that a visitor that doesn't view your ads presents NO value to you. I'm not buying that.

• ANY visitor that ends up on your site by clicking through from a Google search, whether they view your ads or not, helps your search rankings.
  
• They might really like something that you have on your site and share it on their social media accounts (you don't know that these people aren't social influencers)
• As someone previously mentioned, they could be a member of the press, or a blogger, etc, wanting to write about, and share links to your site

I don't think that people who turn adblocker off are "stealing" in the exact same sense that a shoplifter steals. I can buy the argument that it might be SLIGHTLY unethical... for example, I feel a little guilty when I am watching a t.v. show on Hulu or whatever, and I check my e-mail or do something else in another browser window while the ads play. It just is what it is, though.

The key is: If it's an important part of a revenue model, it's the content-producer's responsibility to create such great content that people don't care about watching ads. Not the other way around. It's getting to be a tough way to make money, especially now (which is why a lot of people are encouraging you to look for other sources of revenue, not saying that you don't have them already).

Television shows do this by making a season-premiere so anticipated that everyone wants to watch it live, when it is impossible to skip or fast-forward ads. Like so exciting that people have to watch every second LIVE. Tough to do.

The issue with the soap thread wasn't necessarily that the idea was stolen (any number of people "steal" or "copy" business ideas every day), but that the rules of behavior that have been established for THIS COMMUNITY were broken, so it's not the same at all. I like how this forum is moderated, and it's rare to find an online place where you can feel comfortable expressing yourself without all the trolls and crazies. (This takes a lot of work - thanks mods

All of this is beautiful and perfect.

Gabe newell, CEO of valve has an interesting take on piracy, the biggest issue facing gaming right now.

QUOTE:
"We think there is a fundamental misconception about piracy," Newell said. "Piracy is almost always a service problem and not a pricing problem. For example, if a pirate offers a product anywhere in the world, 24/7, purchasable from the convenience of your personal computer, and the legal provider says the product is region-locked, will come to your country three months after the U.S. release and can only be purchased at a brick and mortar store, then the pirate's service is more valuable.

"Most DRM solutions diminish the value of the product by either directly restricting a customer's use or by creating uncertainty."

He adds, "Our goal is to create greater service value than pirates, and this has been successful enough for us that piracy is basically a non-issue for our company. For example, prior to entering the Russian market, we were told that Russia was a waste of time because everyone would pirate our products. Russia is now about to become our largest market in Europe.

"Our success comes from making sure that both customers and partners feel like they get a lot of value from those services. They can trust us not to take advantage of the relationship that we have with them."

"We usually think of ourselves as customer centric rather than production centric. Most of our decisions are based on the rapidly evolving opportunities to better serve our customers, and not on optimizing to be a better game company or digital distributor. The latter focus would be more of a straitjacket than conceptual aid."

 

[LibertyForMe]

You can't, you block them, you don't know.

I haven't been blocking them for very long. I went for a looooonnnggg time with no adblocker, because I didn't even know it existed, and in that time I never bought from an ad. You are right in that I cannot predict the future, but I can make an educated guess based on my previous experiences!

I definitely see your point though, if there was a way to block only stuff that meets certain criteria that is the route I would go down. Then I could set my parameters of what I want to block or see. But unfortunately, I don't think that exists, so I will continue to be a thieving rat bastard normal 20-30 year old internet user.

 

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[DavidofMN]

If someone changes the radio station after a song is over because a commercial is on are they stealing? Or they change the channel during a commercial break during a basketball game is that stealing? I think that a definition of stealing needs to be defined before people are called thieving bastards because they use an adblocker.

If you don't want people visiting your site because they have an adblocker put in the code to redirect them and be done with it. You are choosing to put ads on your site and visitors are choosing to come there for the information. They are in it for them. Do you really think that the average internet user cares what it costs you to host that site? No way. It's free to them. They don't care about your ads that make you money. They only care about them.

If you don't want people "stealing" your content don't put it out there.

 

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[snowbank]

JackEdwards

biophase

found somebody copying advice and his content from a thread he made about selling soap

from what i understand they went a lot further than taking advice. they took his specific manufacturer, the same products, and copied his descriptions.

Now I expose people taking content and services

no one took anything from you. you don't hear the guy who invented the rotary phone complaining that people shouldn't be using cell phones because it's costing him money.

i think this is one of those times where a work break would do you good/re-charge you. i mean this respectfully—you don't seem to be thinking clearly.

 

[Coalission]

2 weeks ago, @JackEdwards (pause for heavenly music) found somebody copying advice and his content from a thread he made about selling soap. The forum lit up, "how dare someone steal someone else's work! We are outraged!" Now I expose people taking content and services and oh well, that is just the cost of doing business and by the way you are doing your business wrong, better change, you pay too much for your server. This is incredibly funny to me. Nobody in the thread has gone, "dude that sucks you might be losing thousands of dollars a month, I wonder how big a problem this is? Here's a post about this on another site I saw". Nope, none of that, I am just a bitter old money grubber with a screwed up business model!!!

That's because no one is stealing from you. They are consuming your free content, and you are just upset because your average consumer doesn't know or care how you make money.

 

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[snowbank]

I see people using our manipulated (by adblocker) assessment software, quizzes, calculators and content for their personal benefit and by blocking ads have no regards as to the effort to create it or its impact on my business.

Then have people submit their email to get access to those things, or do a free trial to XYZ offer, or create a solution that doesn't allow people to block ads on your site, or figure out a way to hard code(i'm anti-technical so don't know the right term but something alone these lines) ads onto your site.

This isn't rocket science.

You're making it harder than it has to be and ranting illogical things instead of just solving the problem you're having with a logical solution.

Emotional response= loss of money/mindspace
Logical response= mo money, mo problems

 

[jon.a]

Someone wake me when debate class is over.

 

[Likwid24]

Is this thread really still going on???? WTF

 

[Rawr]

Why is it OK for you to steal 5 minutes from each one of us as we click the intriguing title, with nothing there?

You want it to be one way. It's the other way.