U.S. Citizenship For Sale

[Rickson9]

"You can't simply purchase an American passport (at least not legally). But since 1990, foreigners with as little as $500,000 in cash have been able to invest their way to a quick green card, putting them on the path to citizenship. Yes, the U.S. government lets people with cash to jump the line for a green card through the EB-5 program."

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/fop...elEnable=1&infopanelEnable=1&carouselEnable=0

 

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[Russ H]

Wow, I had no idea.

This makes a HUGE amount of sense in a capitalist-based system.

As he says, are we pricing this correctly?

I think yes-- perhaps even more is needed for paper asset investors vs those investing in a business/creating jobs.

-Russ H.

 

[AJ.]

Good info!

 

[Darkside]

As long as all the proper precautions are being taken to not let in any criminals I don't see what's wrong with this. It's better in my opinion to allow wealthier people to immigrate to the United States because they won't need welfare support when they arrive and they can contribute to our economy with their money.

 

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[GlobalWealth]

Lots of countries offer economic residency/citizenship programs. This is very, very common.

For example in Latvia, you can get immediate, permanent residency by purchasing $100,000 of real estate in Riga, or $50,000 in the rural areas.

In Estonia, you can get permanent residency by just putting $22,000 in a bank account and opening a business which can be a sole proprietorship.

Countries do this to attract capital and top talent. Its a pretty smart way to attract the producers.

 

[CommonCents]

This is a critical ingredient to long term success of our country. Attracting the best, brightest, most ambitious people to America. Unfortunately it seems we are going in the wrong direction lately.

 

[Anon3587x]

Ricson I know you want to make the jump across the boarder

 

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[Russ H]

Attracting the best, brightest, most ambitious people to America.

Unfortunately it seems we are going in the wrong direction lately.

Given your location (Minnesota), may I assume this remark is towards Canadians coming across the border?

Or is there some other group of immigrants you are referring to?

-Russ H.

 

[Darkside]

Given your location (Minnesota), may I assume this remark is towards Canadians coming across the border?

Or is there some other group of immigrants you are referring to?

-Russ H.

He's probably referring to illegal Mexicans. I doubt that many Canadians immigrate to the United States.

 

[GlobalWealth]

Given your location (Minnesota), may I assume this remark is towards Canadians coming across the border?

Or is there some other group of immigrants you are referring to?

-Russ H.

Russ,
Up until 2007 there were approximately 250 people/year that were giving up their US ciitzenship (according to US data, which is underreported). In 2008, it was about 500. In 2009 the number doubled again to 1000. So far in 2010, that number is already over 1000.

Of course this seems like a very small number, but keep 2 things in mind; the trend and who it is that is expatriating?

What if the next Bill Gates, Sam Walton, Eddie Lampert, Elon Musk, or Mark Zuckerburg are among that small number? This would be a massive brain drain in the US.

I don't think the issue is the immigrants, but more of an issue of who is leaving.

I was talking to one of my clients 2 weeks ago who is an immigration attorney in NYC. She told me 15 years ago her clients were wealthy entrepreneurs and investors from Europe and Asia. She helped them come to the US to open their businesses.

Now she told me that she gets very few of these types of clients coming to the US. Most of her wealthy clients from the last 15 years are moving back to their home countries. Not a good sign.

 

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[Russ H]

He's probably referring to illegal Mexicans. I doubt that many Canadians immigrate to the United States.

Now I know how YOU think, Darkside. Thanks.

But that's not what I asked for. I'd like CommonCents to elaborate. I assume he's speaking from experience, as are you.

Please share your experiences re this.

I'd hate to think you were not talking from personal experience, and just repeating something you saw on TV or online.

(b/c we all know how notoriously accurate *that* is). :smx4:

-Russ H.

 

[Russ H]

Russ,
Up until 2007 there were approximately 250 people/year that were giving up their US ciitzenship (according to US data, which is underreported). In 2008, it was about 500. In 2009 the number doubled again to 1000. So far in 2010, that number is already over 1000.

Of course this seems like a very small number, but keep 2 things in mind; the trend and who it is that is expatriating?

What if the next Bill Gates, Sam Walton, Eddie Lampert, Elon Musk, or Mark Zuckerburg are among that small number? This would be a massive brain drain in the US.

I don't think the issue is the immigrants, but more of an issue of who is leaving.

I was talking to one of my clients 2 weeks ago who is an immigration attorney in NYC. She told me 15 years ago her clients were wealthy entrepreneurs and investors from Europe and Asia. She helped them come to the US to open their businesses.

Now she told me that she gets very few of these types of clients coming to the US. Most of her wealthy clients from the last 15 years are moving back to their home countries. Not a good sign.

Given your choice of occupations, I am happy to see this is a growing business for you.

And you're right-- at this point, the US has a population of over 300,000,000.

So an increase of 1000 people per year represents a .00003% increase

Given that we're in a global recession, I'm surprised this number isn't much. much higher. People shift around when times get tough.

But I also see your points-- and I agree w/you. For people to stay, they have to have good reasons to.

Tough times make it hard to come up w/good reasons, for some.

And if the US started taxing many of its off-shore tax loopholes, I have no doubt that even more would expatriate.

Because for many of these folks, allegiance to money/profit takes priority over allegiance to country.

(I'm not saying that's bad, or good. It is what it is).

-Russ H.

 

[nomadjanet]

I am in S Texas. In our city about 1/3 of our popluation is illegal immigrants from Mexico the issue is that these people mostly work under the table. They don't pay income tax or any other taxes that support our economy (other than sales tax) they send most of the money they make here back to Mexico. It is a falicy that they only hold low paying jobs. I personally know a man who owned a contracting business doing over a mil a year for 20 years never paying any taxes he finally got caught because he was doing a job for the federal government and after 20 years someone actually asked for a social security number or tax ID. He was shocked that he should have to pay taxes, after all he was not an American. He paid all his employees under the table and never kept records, he owned multiple pieces of real estate buy putting them in the name of his famly members (Who were Americans). This person and his wife never even applied to become citizens because they figured this way they would never have to pay taxes and follow the "rules". He sent his chldren to public schools, they all used the local free clinics & county hospital system never paying for health insurance or doctor bills. When he was caught, he was not deported he did have to pay some back taxes but he laughed about the governments estimate of his income saying "they think all Mexicans are making 20K a year". I am not anti immigrant, I think there should be a path to immigration that is evenly administered and easily understood. I am opposed to paying for the education & health care and everything else for people that pay very little into the system.
Janet

 

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[GlobalWealth]

Given your choice of occupations, I am happy to see this is a growing business for you.

And you're right-- at this point, the US has a population of over 300,000,000.

So an increase of 1000 people per year represents a .00003% increase

Given that we're in a global recession, I'm surprised this number isn't much. much higher. People shift around when times get tough.

But I also see your points-- and I agree w/you. For people to stay, they have to have good reasons to.

Tough times make it hard to come up w/good reasons, for some.

And if the US started taxing many of its off-shore tax loopholes, I have no doubt that even more would expatriate.

Because for many of these folks, allegiance to money/profit takes priority over allegiance to country.

(I'm not saying that's bad, or good. It is what it is).

-Russ H.

Tax incentives (or disincentives) are certainly a huge part of this decision making process for sure, but not the only thing.

People tend to migrate toward where the opportunity lies. If I were in your business, I would likely want to stay in the US because of favorable tax incentives for RE investors as well as the draw to key tourist destinations.

Yes, a brain drain of 1000/300,000,000 is very minimal, but consider if the next Bill Gates is in next group of expatriates. This isn't just one person leaving, but one person who will employ 10's of 1000's over the next 2 decades. If this person moves to Ireland, they will see the benefit of this.

I hope US policymakers realize the implications of this potential brain drain and continue to provide incentives for smart foreigners to come here, like the original post discussed.

This is intelligent policymaking. Many countries offer financial incentives for residency/citizenship. Its a matter of competition, who can provide the best overall package to lure the produtive members of the world community into their respective country.

As for taxing the offshore loopholes, this is a political pitfall. I see the reasoning behind trying to close the loopholes to remove the incentive for companies like Google to shift profits overseas which in turn leads to jobs being moved offshore as well.

However, by taxing these offshore earnings when the money is repatriated, you are creating a disincentive for investment to flow back into the US. Why would a company like Google bring billions of $ back to the US if it is going to be hit with a 35% tax for the privilege of investing in the US? This money was earned outside of the US, why would it be taxed here? This type of policy leads to a decrease in investment here which causes long term decreases in productivity.

Yes, I am getting more and more entrepreneurs calling me about wanting to set up offshore structures because of the desire to move offshore. But US domestic RE investors are still my biggest client base as they have the most to lose in the event of litigation stateside.

As for the allegiance to country vs. allegiance to profit, I personally have an allegiance to my welfare and that of my family first.

I believe in the concept of America with the freedoms implied, but the US is a piece of RE where those ideals have been expressed and reinforced. I feel we have strayed from these ideals and truly hope we can come back to our roots.

 

[Anon3587x]

Now I know how YOU think, Darkside. Thanks.

But that's not what I asked for.

Illegal immigrants are entrepreneurs! I love them and I admire how they see a loop hole and work so hard to take advantage of it! I sincerely applaud them. I dis-applaud those who look down upon such ambitions.

I'll trade one million American prisoners to Mexico for one million more Mexicans ready to work their asses off all day.

 

[Darkside]

Now I know how YOU think, Darkside. Thanks.

But that's not what I asked for. I'd like CommonCents to elaborate. I assume he's speaking from experience, as are you.

Please share your experiences re this.

I'd hate to think you were not talking from personal experience, and just repeating something you saw on TV or online.

(b/c we all know how notoriously accurate *that* is). :smx4:

-Russ H.

Don't try to portray me as a racist. I was just pointing out that whenever people in America complain about immigrants these days it's usually about illegal Mexicans. I live in a city that borders Mexico and most of the people I encounter on a daily basis are Mexicans. The illegal ones tend to be the nicest ones of all; they just want to work hard and give their children a chance at the American dream.

 

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[nomadjanet]

LOL LOL LOL

Illegal immigrants are entrepreneurs!
I love them and I admire how they see a loop hole and work so hard to take advantage of it! I sincerely applaud them. I dis-applaud those who look down upon such ambitions.

You can pay a Illegal immigrant 50 bucks to work his a$$ off for 12 hours straight. The myth that a huge majority send most of their money home to Mexico is a lie.

Even if it was entirely true. If your momma or wife needs to pay some bills and eat wouldn't you send them money too?
This money is being earned through honest hard work. Even if it is being sent to another country at least it is taking care of somebody. Anyone capable of reading this is well taken care of to the point they have a computer and internet access.

If you are willing to work HARD and HONESTLY in order to support or better the lives of yourself and family. . . Who the hell am I to tell you no because you lack a few pieces of paper.

We spend more money dealing with all these dishonest native born low lives than we do illegal immigrants. The whole Illegal immigrant bull shit is just a way to divert the attention from the real reasons our government is in debt.

I'll trade one million American prisoners to Mexico for one million more Mexicans ready to work their asses off all day.

You cannot hire an illegal for 50 for 12 hours in South Texas, maybe 20 years ago, not now. I understnd why they send their monty home, I just know that keeping more money in circulation in our area is important. Our economy is kept down by the toal underground economy of our city. I am not against anyone I simply think that we need to find a better way.

 

[CommonCents]

Given your location (Minnesota), may I assume this remark is towards Canadians coming across the border?

Or is there some other group of immigrants you are referring to?

-Russ H.

HUH? Show me where I referred to ANY immigrant group? Global Wealth nailed it. Our policies are going in a direction to disincentivize the best and the brightest from coming here, and also many here to consider leaving. People go to where the opportunity is. Either we are in a global market and compete globally or we don't.

FYI, (detecting a little tongue in cheek race baiting?) I've had hundreds of legal Mexican immigrants work for me over the years and they worked extremely hard. I've traveled to Canada many times and found them to be great people as well. I admire anyone who picks up and goes to another country in search of opportunity, but it must be done legally.

 

[andviv]

I'd like to see how this thread is going to remain as a positive, civilized conversation.
And I am staying away from this topic given that I am an immigrant.

--I moved the thread to Off-Topic.

 

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[michael]

Given your location (Minnesota), may I assume this remark is towards Canadians coming across the border?

Or is there some other group of immigrants you are referring to?

-Russ H.

Sounded like he was saying USA in the year 2010 is scaring away bright minds because of tax/debt/regulation.

I didn't see or get a hint of any racial overtones in his post.

 

[Russ H]

HUH? Show me where I referred to ANY immigrant group? Global Wealth nailed it. Our policies are going in a direction to disincentivize the best and the brightest from coming here, and also many here to consider leaving. People go to where the opportunity is. Either we are in a global market and compete globally or we don't.

FYI, (detecting a little tongue in cheek race baiting?) I've had hundreds of legal Mexican immigrants work for me over the years and they worked extremely hard. I've traveled to Canada many times and found them to be great people as well. I admire anyone who picks up and goes to another country in search of opportunity, but it must be done legally.

Hokey smokes, I go away for a day and this happens.

Time to clear the air:

1. Clearly, I misread your post, CommonCents. When you wrote "wrong direction", I assumed you were referring to the opposite direction of people moving out of the US (ie, those who were coming in, ie, immigrants). I said as much.

BTW, I was not the one who said you were talking about "illegal mexicans". That was Darkside:

He's probably referring to illegal Mexicans. I doubt that many Canadians immigrate to the United States.

Who then accused me of being racist:

Don't try to portray me as a racist. I was just pointing out that whenever people in America complain about immigrants these days it's usually about illegal Mexicans.

Since I never brought up any illegal immigrants, nor did I ever mention our neighbors to the south, I find it fascinating that you both have read my comments as racist:

(detecting a little tongue in cheek race baiting?)

* * * * * * * * * * * * *

The whole reason for my posts-- to both Darkside and CommonCents-- was to find out their personal experiences w/immigrants (since that's how I'd misread the original post made by CommonCents).

You both gave additional clarification and went out of your way to explain your views on Mexican immigrants, which I really appreciate. Thank you.

My comments about Canadians were, indeed, a bit tongue-in-cheek. Our neighbors to the north are rarely criticized, and immigration is also not an issue we hear about often. I just picked the country that borders Minnesota.

* * * * * * * * *

Regarding comments to the effect that I'm a racist:

I probably am.

As I've mentioned on earlier occasions, I grew up in Detroit, during the race riots. I knew no black people, and was taught to be afraid of them. Kids my age were also afraid, and while I didn't hear the "N" word in church, I sure heard it in other places.

I never felt right about this-- esp the jokes. Blond jokes, woman jokes, black jokes, hispanic jokes, Polish/Irish/Italian jokes . . . making fun of others who were different than you were always seemed *wrong* to me, deep inside.

It didn't seem to bother others much. Just me.

I guess that was probably the beginning of my "awakening" about racism/bigotry/prejudice.

As I grew older, I started to realize just how much of my life (and others around me) was affected by our prejudices.

I didn't like it.

Deep inside me, it just felt *wrong*. I can't describe it any better than that.

It wasn't an intellectual thing-- a thinking thing-- it was a deeply grounded emotion: That making fun, or ridiculing, or fearing others that are different from me is just WRONG.

I'm sure part of that is/was because *I* am different, too.

I grew up overweight. I was also not very coordinated (picked last for things on the playground). I was an egghead-- studied a lot (both my parents were teachers, so this was my life).

I had nerdy habits-- I wore goofy clothes and even carried around a calculator on my belt in 1975-- this was literally at the dawn of hand-held calculators-- before anyone associated nerds w/calculators on their belts!

(and no, I didn't have a pocket protector. I had a pencil bag).

In other words, I grew up feeling different-- not part of the "in" crowd.

So it was easy for me to identify with others who were ridiculed for being different.

Since I realized this, I've worked at learning to listen w/my heart, and not trusting so much what I'm taught-- what others around me are doing.

It doesn't make for easy going. I wound up moving away from home, and I no longer hang out with any of the people I knew growing up).

But it was something I felt I needed to do.

So am I a racist?

Yes. Even though every fiber of my being knows this is wrong, I still am a racist. A sexist. A religious fanatic. A chauvinist.

All these, and more.

But I work each and every day to NOT be that way.

To be tolerant.

To be open-minded.

To not only TALK the talk-- but LIVE it.

Embrace--and truly love-- diversity.

Because it's what feels right to me.

* * * * * *

So if my comments, assertions, or thoughts seem racist to you, they're not intended to be.

But they might be parts of the "old me", leaking through.

-Russ H.

 

[Guest3722A]

Years ago I knew this Yugoslavian dude who came into the country across the Canadian border in someones trunk. After going through his couple years of depression from being away from his family and not knowing the language he one day got suckered into selling kirby vacuums and without understanding the downtalk of door to door vacuum sales, he sold so many of em that he actually passed the level to where he opened his own office.

From here he bought a new condo and got his citizenship for like a few hundred bucks. After his kirby adventure he ended up in auto sales and was able to invest in land in his native country. After I showed him my last building for my rehearsal hall I hadn't heard from him any more.. wonder why

 

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[Davidla]

I think that the number of the U.S citizens giving up their citizenship is not a good reflection of how many people (and entrepreneures) ACTUALLY leave the country every year to persue business elsewhere.

No one would give up his american citizenship unless he had to.
And as far as I know, most countries allow you to have dual citizenship...so it is not necessairy.

So the actual number of people leaving is much higher than the low figures presented.

 

[Russ H]

. . . as far as I know, most countries allow you to have dual citizenship...so it is not necessairy.

I'm not sure this is correct.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_citizenship

However, you can *reside* (ie, live) in many countries without having to be a citizen of that country.

-Russ H.

 

[GlobalWealth]

I think that the number of the U.S citizens giving up their citizenship is not a good reflection of how many people (and entrepreneures) ACTUALLY leave the country every year to persue business elsewhere.

No one would give up his american citizenship unless he had to.
And as far as I know, most countries allow you to have dual citizenship...so it is not necessairy.

So the actual number of people leaving is much higher than the low figures presented.

these are some false assumptions here. I have known several people to give up their american citizenship not because they had to, but because they wanted to. I am not suggesting this is a good idea or something I would do, but to make the statement 'no one would give up his american citizenship unless he had to' is making a false blanket statement with no knowledge of others situations.

there is actually quite a long list of high profile americans who have renounced their citizenship for various reasons: •John “Ippy” Dorrance (Campbells Soup) - Ireland
•Kenneth Dart (Dart Container) - Belize
•Sir John Templeton (Templeton Fund) - Bahamas
•Mark Mobius (Templeton Emerging Markets Fund) - Germany
•Fred Freible (Locktite) - Turks & Caicos
•Michael Dingman (Abex & Ford) - Bahamas
•Joseph Bogdanovich (Star-Kist & H.J. Heinz)
•4 of the J. Paul Getty grandsons, Richard Minns, Ted Arison and more…

As to the second statement, many countries do require you to renounce your citizenship in order to acquire theirs, ie. Norway. However, most of them have no way of confirming whether or not you actually did renounce your US citizenship so most people seeking dual citizenship in those countries do not give it up.

With your last statement, you are correct, the number is much greater than what is reported. I am sure the state dept doesnt want the real figures published. In addition to those numbers there are now about 6m Americans living abroad.

 

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[FDJustin]

Maybe I'm weird, because I have trouble seeing things as racist, unless they are blatantly so. "Someone stole my bike! It was probably a black guy!" is something I would recognize...
But complaining about illegal Mexican immigrants doesn't seem racist to me. If your view is that illegal immigrants are causing a problem, and many - if not most of them are Mexican, then that wouldn't seem racist. Unless your commentary was more along the lines of attacking them as a culture or people "They're good for nothing!"

Meh. It's time for some song and dance for the overly touchy people. [video=youtube;MKg_ca3AgW0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKg_ca3AgW0[/video]

 

[Davidla]

I'm not sure this is correct.

Multiple citizenship - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

However, you can *reside* (ie, live) in many countries without having to be a citizen of that country.

-Russ H.

You are right. Let me rephrashe: *many* countries allow you to have dual citizenship.


-----

these are some false assumptions here. I have known several people to give up their american citizenship not because they had to, but because they wanted to. I am not suggesting this is a good idea or something I would do, but to make the statement 'no one would give up his american citizenship unless he had to' is making a false blanket statement with no knowledge of others situations.

there is actually quite a long list of high profile americans who have renounced their citizenship for various reasons: •John “Ippy†Dorrance (Campbells Soup) - Ireland
•Kenneth Dart (Dart Container) - Belize
•Sir John Templeton (Templeton Fund) - Bahamas
•Mark Mobius (Templeton Emerging Markets Fund) - Germany
•Fred Freible (Locktite) - Turks & Caicos
•Michael Dingman (Abex & Ford) - Bahamas
•Joseph Bogdanovich (Star-Kist & H.J. Heinz)
•4 of the J. Paul Getty grandsons, Richard Minns, Ted Arison and more…

As to the second statement, many countries do require you to renounce your citizenship in order to acquire theirs, ie. Norway. However, most of them have no way of confirming whether or not you actually did renounce your US citizenship so most people seeking dual citizenship in those countries do not give it up.

With your last statement, you are correct, the number is much greater than what is reported. I am sure the state dept doesnt want the real figures published. In addition to those numbers there are now about 6m Americans living abroad.

Again - remark taken about generalizations. Lets change that to *many* people who leave the states dont forfit their citizenship :smxF:

You've done a wonderful job at explaining what I was trying to say: in reality, many of the american citizens who take their business to foreign countries do not forfit their citizenships, and therefor are not represented in the statistics mentioned.


------
On a different note,

The article and some people here mentioned lower taxes in different countries as an incentive for business owners to migrate outside the U.S.
I wonder what countries were they talking about?
For me, the taxes in the U.S are very low compared to the 50% income taxes where I used to live before, without considering many import taxes, and healthcare taxes.
Also, the tax returns & deductables in the U.S are the most progressive I've ever heard of.

 

[GlobalWealth]

Davidla,
In what country did you used to live?

I am a big fan of eastern Europe where many of those countries have a low flat tax rate and no tax on foreign income or investment income.

You are certainly correct that most don't forfeit their US citizenship. They prefer to keep their options open or they hold on to their roots. I know many expats who have multiple passports but chose to keep the blue one with the eagle on it.

 

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[Davidla]

I used to live in Israel.

No tax on foreign or investment income sounds wonderful.
I just read the "Beer Economy" for the average bloke on your website - it's great.
You should post it on the forum!

I think that the strongest force driving entrepreneurs to do business outside the U.S right now, is just natural economic gravity.
The U.S consumer market is very saturated, and in other parts of the world many formerly "emerging" markets are becoming consuming markets - China, India, Argentine, and Brazil for instance. These new markets attract entrepreneurs from all over the world..thats where the big money of the next decades lies in my opinion.

The markets there are still young in many fields, so becoming a future big player there is somewhat easier than starting from scratch against big players in saturated markets.

 

[CommonCents]

The U.S consumer market is very saturated, and in other parts of the world many formerly "emerging" markets are becoming consuming markets - China, India, Argentine, and Brazil for instance. These new markets attract entrepreneurs from all over the world..thats where the big money of the next decades lies in my opinion.

I like this strategy, no hard work on re-inventing the wheel on new products and services, just be a fast follower and bring the product/service to a new country. Or even in the US from the coasts (often more trend setters) to the middle of the country.

My parents have a renter who is starting debit cards in Israel where evidently they have not had them. Interesting and I would not have thought about that. Not sure of the revenue model of debit cards but sounds like a good oppty. It always seems the best ideas are very simple and cause you to say, Gee, why didn't I think of that?


RUSS, thanks for clarifying, no harm no foul! It's difficult to translate written forum language in absence of tone. Back to making money!