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Trading Stocks The Safe Way

Anything related to investing, including crypto

Vigilante

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Hello Everyone,

I am new to the forum and I have read MJ's book. I naturally gravitated to the investment portion of the forum because it is what I have been learning and studying for for many years.

I read through all of the MJ's and ICK posts on the printing money thread. I commend them for detailing out the strategy they use how successful they are with it. It's really amazing and I encourage anyone who is interested in options to have a look at it. I traded that way for a few years, but then realized that, that style of trading was too stressful for my personality type. But It might fit your specific psychology.

I searched for a less hands on approach and for something that allowed me to have a fixed risk on my money. I feel there is a need for this type of trading style if:

1. You want to invest your money in the stock market but are afraid to lose
2. You want an approach that does not require a lot of time
3. You are patient
4. You have some money that is sitting in an account generating little to no interest and you want to put it somewhere where it might get you an above average return.
5. You are willing to put in a in some work studying different concepts

If this fits you and you would like to learn more about the way I trade stocks, I am offering to run you through an educational program.
The Cost is $250.00, and with it comes a full guarantee. If you don't think it was valuable or for any other reason you get your money back no questions asked.

You will learn some

A. Basic Fundamental Analysis
B. Basic Technical Analysis
C. Strategies to participate in a stock you want to own while limiting your risk.

If you are interested or have any questions please send me a PM.

Please post time phased proof of the rise of your own stock portfolio. Also, please outline the historical facts of your own portfolio so that people know that this method has garnered account growth to wealth in your own personal holdings. Since your credibility here is zero (not negative, just zero) people need some proof that they should listen to you before they send $1, much less 250x that amount.

Also, some detailed information on your background might be helpful to people interested in this.
 

Vigilante

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Hi, Thank for your comment. You are correct zero credibility. I know that and that is why I am offering a money back option. Zero Risk to the buyer.

Does that mean you have no plans to substantiate your credibility with documented screenshots of your own portfolio?

You need to give people a reason to pay you, and I promise to pay them back if you are a fraudster is not sufficient.

There's no reason anybody should trust you unless you establish your authority in the subject matter that you want people to buy.

"Trust me" is not enough.

For all I know you've never made a dollar in the market.

Prove it. Prove it before anybody sends you any money.
 

MJ DeMarco

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options are extremely risky

That's a myth. Perhaps on par with "starting a business risky" or "fat makes you fat."

Options aren't any more risky the buying or shorting stock. And yet, the mainstream says that's perfectly safe because after all, buying stock is for your retirement.
 

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Guys, I don't need a introductory course on options, I have extensive experience with them.

but with buying stock the most you can lose is the principal

And that's more risky than selling the put.

You buy 100 shares of stock for $50, stock goes to ZERO. You lose $5,000.
You sell 1 ATM $50 Strike Put at 2.60 (100 shares) stock goes to ZERO. You lose $4,740.00

BUY STOCK: MAX LOSS ... $5,000
SELL PUT: MAX LOSS ..... $4,740

Buying stock is not safer or less riskier. The only reason why its deemed safer is because it has unlimited upside. And because the mainstream media fiscal sycophants wants you to believe so.

Sorry for the thread hijack @Big Z -- however I think his strategy addresses this risk component.
 
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AndrewNC

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Also I don't "write copy" I am not a salesman nor do I have any experience selling online or internet marketing.
There are three parts of business (simplified).

Product.
Sales.
Advertising.

Let's assume you have the product.
You are advertising (offering your course in front of people who may be interested).

Now it's time for sales.

You could have the cure for cancer, and if you post it online, nobody would believe you.

One of the elements of sales is trust. How to have people trust you enough to hand you their money. To most people you are just an empty face on the internet with no name and no trust.

Get your face on here. Get video demos of past results. Get testimonials from people you trained in person perhaps? Get your personal story and background and make an emotional connection with the people who might potentially buy from you.

You're 2/3s there (assuming you stand by your product).
 
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I see you shared a short overview of your strategy... thanks for that.

I was going to suggest something to you. If you spend some time on this forum you will see that the people successfully selling courses spent a lot of time in the beginning giving away information for free.... It builds their reputation for knowing what they are taking about and leads others to want their guidance.

If you had a thread where you taught people about trading stocks for free, even if you gave away ALL of your info, people would still hire you for guidance. Some people want their hand held.

If they get a taste and want more then that's a good thing. If they're buying a mystery flavor, well, either they won't buy it or they will want their money back when it doesn't taste good.

Don't be so worried about getting paid for your knowledge and spend more energy giving value. No doubt it will come back to you in spades. It's like rule #1 in this community.

I was pumped to see another trading strategy besides options. Hope to see more interesting posts from you.

Cheers
 

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I could easily post screenshots, but then how would you know they aren't fabricated?

Grab a cell phone, point it at your screen and hit "record", log into your account, and go through it. Obfuscate anything sensitive, then post that.

Not impossible to fake but a hell of a lot more credible than "trust me".

first 3 people. I will not take any money upfront.

While this is a great offer, it doesn't solve the credibility part.

You are selling information which means the people likely to get the most value from it aren't savvy enough to tell if you are selling them Gold or Pyrite. It will look shiny and seem right, but that doesn't mean they can take it to the bank and cash it.

If I came up with a diet and exercise program that cost $250, and I was reluctant to show anyone a photo of myself, would giving 3 people the course for free assuage anyone's skepticism of me?
 

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Thank you @MidwestLandlord , @MJ DeMarco , and @GoodluckChuck , for all of your feedback. I really appreciate it.

I've decided to share more of what I am doing taking your advice and maybe this thread will turn into a learning thread instead.

Here are some points about the strategy that may address some of the comments.

1. The market is overbought, but it can stay over bought for some time and a lot of people were saying overbought months ago and this thing still goes up. Having said that if you are standing on the sidelines not wanting to get involved, you could be wasting an opportunity to participate in the upside move. This is one way to do it while protecting yourself.

2. This strategy allows you to take advantage of the markets "rubber band" effect in a way. If the stock were to go down, you will have the opportunity to lower your cost basis in the stock and then when the stock rubber bands back up or bounces , you may have the ability to make a profit.

3. If the stock were to go up from here, this could turn out to be a no risk free trade, by purchasing or rolling the put up and out.

4. Since it is cutting your upside by requiring your stock to advance a bit more before you make money, it may not return large % return per year, but maybe you can make more than having your money sitting in a CD at less than 1%.

5. The timing of the stock purchase is important also, and the type of stock chosen. It would be best to choose strong companies that have strong financials. I believe through chart reading skills the timing can be improved to better than 50/50 and by doing so you get a slight edge. You wouldn't want to buy a stock in a downtrend. A stock that is up trending would be best or one that has been bottoming out with a potential to bounce. I have criteria that I like to use for defining an up trend and other patterns.

6. Within the context of the married put, one can also sell calls against the position and receive some premium further reducing the cost basis or adding profit to the position. Yes this may cap the upside, but then again you could roll up and out on the call before getting called out and give the upside more potential. In other words you can be active within the position to squeeze some more $$ out of it.

Bonus:
7. This can be done in a bear market. You can short a stock and buy a call and do the reverse and now you can play in a bear market or in a down trending stock.

It does take some time to learn chart patterns and understand reading some financial statements of companies and also paying attention to things like earnings. Sometimes also you may be in a position for months at a time but all the while you can be active selling premium or making adjustments tot he position.

Thanks again everyone for the feedback.

Z
 

MidwestLandlord

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I will give a little information about the way that I trade. I trade a married put strategy. Basically it means that for every 100 shares of stock that I own I also by a put to hedge my position. This limits my risk and keeps the profit potential open.
For example
Currently I own CMCSA at 37.71 (lets say 100 shares for example purposes)

I also own the CMCSA 37.50 Put option which I paid 1.25 for
The cost basis for this trade is for the trade is 38.96 ($3,896)
The risk on the trade is 1.46 or 3.7%. ($146)

I can not lose more than 1.46 ($146) on the trade plus commissions. The upside is open.

I will adjust this position during the life of the trade in order to reduce the risk or lock in an profits. I don't have to worry about my stop loss getting hit or any gap downs in the stock. It could go to zero tomorrow and it wouldn't matter I am protected with the put option, so the overnight risk is just the 1.46.

Some of the nuances involve knowing when to buy the stock, which stock stocks to buy, how to adjust, which strike price, how far out in time, Risk management, Portfolio Risk management, etc

This is the basic strategy.
Regards,
Z

This is a long-term buy and hold strategy with insurance against the downside, and the insurance cuts 3.7% off the top-side profitability. (by my count this actually reduces the normal 50% chance of profit on stock ownership)

How many DTE for the put? If this is shorter than a year until expiration, than your top-side profitability is actually cut by more than the 3.7% on an annual basis (assuming you purchase additional puts at or before expiration)

I think in an over-bought market like we have now, this is not a bad strategy. This strategy would of saved a lot of heartache for a lot of people in 2008 for instance.

I'm just trying to understand. You are selling this as a long-term buy and hold strategy...no?

In your example above, your cost basis is higher than the 52 week high for comcast (adjusted for their split in January) in an over-priced market, which means the chances of the stock moving passed your cost basis in the short-term is rather low. In the long-term, I could see comcast moving passed that cost basis, but by then your cost basis will have gone up, due to more purchased puts for protection.

Nothing wrong with a long-term buy and hold strategy, especially with protection as you indicate here...if that's how you're selling it.

But, in my opinion, this is a loss-prevention strategy, not an income strategy.
 
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Big Z

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An example of a good trade to show the possibilities.
aobc.jpg
I purchased AOBC at 19.99 and also bought the June 20 put at 1.25, my risk was 1.24 or 124.00.

The stock moved up just a few days later and now I rolled the 20 put up to the 22 for .85, my new cost basis is 22.09 bringing my risk down to .09. I have about 2 months left in the option, I don't have to worry about losing on this trade and I can apply other techniques to lock in some extra gains right now. For example I can sell the 25 June call at at .30 bringing my cost down to 21.79 guaranteeing at least a .21 cent profit and if the trade runs up past 25 and I get called out its a 15% profit or 3.21

I could take profits here and make about 5% by selling my stock and also getting back some money and selling my put option which still has some vlaue in it, but with this strategy it allows me to let my trade run and possibly make more while not having to worry about losing any of my capital. So now I am in a no lose situation for 2 months. 5% in in a few days is great but to really make a good year I like to let these go and see how far they can run and I can do it without fear or worry.
Plenty of options at this point to manage this trade.

Nice thing is with this strategy you can follow the rules of cutting losers quick and letting winners run.
 

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I am glad you changed the direction of this thread. Because what it came down to was that you were selling a product which only had six months of back testing and no testimonials. So I think if you would've continued down that path this thread would've took a nosedive.

Now it's an educational thread and if you decide to sell your course in the future it will do much better.
 

Big Z

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Here is my story,
I started trading in right before the dot com bubble in 2000. I did not trade my own money. I put it with a broker just before the crash. He was a buyer of options and those days were a little wild with the swings. When the crash happened he lost about 90% of my money. And the money of other family members that I had encouraged to jump in. Needless to say I felt bad about that and felt that I should learn how to do it myself because I felt there was potential.
I began researching online and came upon selling credit spreads. I liked the idea of hitting base hits and a high percentage of winning trades. Shortly after I met some people who taught me about Iron Condors. I spent the next three years trading my own money with their guidance , using the iron condor strategy. And I made money every year for 3 years. However something didn't sit right with me, because sometimes a bad trade would wipe out 5 -7 winning trades profits. At that point I had money in a hedge fund and my own account. I took my money out of the hedge fund and stopped doing Iron Condors. Just in time, the market shifted and the hedge fund closed down. The guys that were trading IC with me lost a lot , I was fortunate to save myself.

Part of the problem was the over night risk. I didn't like it and it was stressful because a big move would put positions under pressure and you didn't know what your loss was going to be or if your whole year was going to get wiped out with this one trade.( What MJ and ICK are doing is working for them and they are successful.They are kind enough to share it and if you want to trade credit spreads they have put together that thread that in my opinion has all you need to do it successfully ). But it does not fit my personality and it might not fit with other people as well.

Just after I went to a trade show in Vegas and was introduced to day trading the eminis. I thought it was the best thing ever it because no over night risk and you make your money during the day and your done. I spend the next 10 years studying everything on day trading, bought the courses and books etc. I found some very good information and some bad . I made a lot of mistakes and wiped several small accounts in the process. Tweaking and jumping from one system to the other. Meanwhile I am running two businesses in offline retail and doing some real estate as well on the side.

Day trading was tough, I made money I lost money. You need to be there the whole day to make it work. And you need a lot of screen time. It was an uphill battle because I didn't have the time and the emotional stress was also a factor. Running other business I had too much on my plate. So I decided to look into trading with a style that didn't require a lot of time and I could do it with less stress. So Back to the research.

About six months ago I learned different stock strategies and how to trade the way I trade now. I thought it was a great way because now I can trade without having to be at the computer all day. I have eliminated over night risk from wiping out my account. I leave my upside open in case my positions decide to run, and its just much more relaxing. I don't have a track record to post on here as it is too soon to show any real returns.

Having said all that. I feel that just like me there must be some other people who have experienced what I have, or just want to invest but might not know how to limit their risk to a reasonable amount and take advantage of the potential of making some profit. I have never taught anyone this. I read MJ's book and I decided that in addition to trading and other offline businesses I have, with my knowledge I can create another source of income while at the same time help people out that want to invest. I am fortunate that I have a few successful businesses and I don't really need this source to make a living.

I could create videos and put together an ebook. I decided I would rather work with individuals one on one to understand their level of experience and be able to answer questions and give it a more personal touch. In about 3 hours I could probably show all I have and then be available for questions or guidance.

It cost me a lot of money and time to get here and I don't feel right just giving away for free. But I am confident that people will find it valuable and that is why I am willing to do it and receive payment later.

Like I said earlier I understand the skepticism. I hope this sheds more light on what I am trying to do and the need that I perceive to be out there. Maybe no one cares and its just my opinion. Like MJ said in the book, it doesn't matter what you like or think, if there is no need or demand for it it's not going to work. Serving others is the way and that is what my intention is here.

Regards,
Z
 

MJ DeMarco

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I think in an over-bought market like we have now, this is not a bad strategy.

Yes, and it's effectiveness is dependent on a bull market. It's basically buying stock like any normal person and then also buying insurance from a put seller. Unlimited upside, downsize capped. It probably appeals to a lot of people who's risk tolerance is slim and none. IMO, the strategy he teaches is a good strategy to have in your tool-belt.
 

Big Z

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Hello Everyone,

I am new to the forum and I have read MJ's book. I naturally gravitated to the investment portion of the forum because it is what I have been learning and studying for for many years.

I read through all of the MJ's and ICK posts on the printing money thread. I commend them for detailing out the strategy they use how successful they are with it. It's really amazing and I encourage anyone who is interested in options to have a look at it. I traded that way for a few years, but then realized that, that style of trading was too stressful for my personality type. But It might fit your specific psychology.

I searched for a less hands on approach and for something that allowed me to have a fixed risk on my money. I feel there is a need for this type of trading style if:

1. You want to invest your money in the stock market but are afraid to lose
2. You want an approach that does not require a lot of time
3. You are patient
4. You have some money that is sitting in an account generating little to no interest and you want to put it somewhere where it might get you an above average return.
5. You are willing to put in a in some work studying different concepts

If this fits you and you would like to learn more about the way I trade stocks, I am offering to run you through an educational program.
The Cost is $250.00, and with it comes a full guarantee. If you don't think it was valuable or for any other reason you get your money back no questions asked.

You will learn some

A. Basic Fundamental Analysis
B. Basic Technical Analysis
C. Strategies to participate in a stock you want to own while limiting your risk.

If you are interested or have any questions please send me a PM.
 
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bringitnow28329

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I don't mean to discredit you but learning basic fundamental and technical analysis does not require spending $250.00. It requires reading a couple books or reading free info online. In all honesty the basic knowledge isn't even useful anymore with regards to making money in the market. Further more, to receive above average returns in the market requires accepting risk and takes time and effort. That's a reality, so to say something is low risk and requires little time, is not being very clear or honest with people.
 
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MJ DeMarco

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With a option it can happen extremely quickly because the spreads and the lack of volume.

You're arguing a straw man. I don't mess with options in the biotech space nor do I trade options which have bid/asks so wide a bus could be driven through it. In high volatility, bid/asks spread out for all instruments, not just options.
 

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You mentioned you read the print money thread on the Inside. Did you really read it? Or did you just skim through it after 5-10 minutes because of your preconceived notions that options are risky? If so, I'd suggest at least giving it a second look.

Well it is one thing to just avoid posting screen shots because of what you said. It is illegal to post fake screenshots in the U.S obviously so a person that does this is breaking the law.

The problem with doing what you are suggesting is that it takes along time to learn. Most people that sell some sort of course, ebook, etc on the stock market know that if you teach a beginner the basics and then they know more then they did before, they will provide a positive review. The problem is it takes a lot time for a person to start to making money consistently in the market outside of just luck, and most people will never make money. Therefore you get a positive review in the short term, only to watch the person never make money, or even worse, lose all there money when they actually are trading or investing. You the so called guru gets paid because it seems you are providing something of value to the unsuspecting victim that doesn't know any better.

I don't understand how this is an excuse for not providing a track record.

Either you're not as good as you say you are, or you are extremely terrible at writing sales copy and selling yourself.

This thread kind of pisses me off actually. The fact that you really think someone would pay you $250 just from your original post where you don't introduce yourself or your background, don't post ANY proof, and provide extremely vague details is an insult to the people on this forum.
 

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I will give a little information about the way that I trade. I trade a married put strategy. Basically it means that for every 100 shares of stock that I own I also by a put to hedge my position. This limits my risk and keeps the profit potential open.
For example
Currently I own CMCSA at 37.71 (lets say 100 shares for example purposes)

I also own the CMCSA 37.50 Put option which I paid 1.25 for
The cost basis for this trade is for the trade is 38.96 ($3,896)
The risk on the trade is 1.46 or 3.7%. ($146)

I can not lose more than 1.46 ($146) on the trade plus commissions. The upside is open.

I will adjust this position during the life of the trade in order to reduce the risk or lock in an profits. I don't have to worry about my stop loss getting hit or any gap downs in the stock. It could go to zero tomorrow and it wouldn't matter I am protected with the put option, so the overnight risk is just the 1.46.

Some of the nuances involve knowing when to buy the stock, which stock stocks to buy, how to adjust, which strike price, how far out in time, Risk management, Portfolio Risk management, etc

This is the basic strategy.
Regards,
Z
 
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Big Z

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I will give a little information about the way that I trade. I trade a married put strategy. Basically it means that for every 100 shares of stock that I own I also by a put to hedge my position. This limits my risk and keeps the profit potential open.
For example
Currently I own CMCSA at 37.71 (lets say 100 shares for example purposes)

I also own the CMCSA 37.50 Put option which I paid 1.25 for
The cost basis for this trade is for the trade is 38.96 ($3,896)
The risk on the trade is 1.46 or 3.7%. ($146)

I can not lose more than 1.46 ($146) on the trade plus commissions. The upside is open.

I will adjust this position during the life of the trade in order to reduce the risk or lock in an profits. I don't have to worry about my stop loss getting hit or any gap downs in the stock. It could go to zero tomorrow and it wouldn't matter I am protected with the put option, so the overnight risk is just the 1.46.

Some of the nuances involve knowing when to buy the stock, which stock stocks to buy, how to adjust, which strike price, how far out in time, Risk management, Portfolio Risk management, etc

This is the basic strategy.
Regards,
Z

So Today CMCSA reported earnings the stock went up which is helping my position. I wanted to update here to give more examples of an adjustment I can make to protect my money and allow it to grow.

I sold the 37.50 put I owned and bought he 40 Put for a cost of .74. This brings my cost basis to 39.70 which means that I now can not lose money on this trade. The worst case scenario is that I make .30 cents, but If CMCSA continues to move higher I make more money. Best of all I can sleep easy allowing the stock to run. I had no problem holding this stock CMCSA during earnings because I was protected and my downside risk was limited.

This type of trading can be boring, but the point is to be in a position where my money is safe and has the opportunity to grow giving me a better return than just having it sit there in the bank making less than 1%.
 
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Big Z

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I would like to add that,
Yes this thread started out as me trying to sell some education about the way that I trade, and that is why it is here in the market place. It has since taken a slightly different direction, wherein I am now posting more about what I do so that people can see what it is about. My intent now is to share information which hopefully will be helpful to people and not so much to solicit sales. I had contacted MJ about possibly moving this thread somewhere else, but I am not sure that it can be done.
Regards,
Z
 

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BAC trade: closing it out today since the put option expires. This trade was positive but did reverse with the market sell off. The final tally on it is a 135.00 loss.
I could roll this put option and increase my cost basis banking on a rebound, but I would rather pick another stock that may have more potential.
First trade of 67 loss and second trade of 135.00 brings the total right now to -202.00.
This is a good example of how trading this way keeps the losing trades small, which is one of the main goals with this technique.
I could have played this a little safer by selling some call options when the stock moved up and it would have been a lower risk situation, but I felt that the stock might break out to the upside.
Now its time to move on and choose another stock to evaluate and set another position.
 
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Big Z

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Does that mean you have no plans to substantiate your credibility with documented screenshots of your own portfolio?

You need to give people a reason to pay you, and I promise to pay them back if you are a fraudster is not sufficient.

There's no reason anybody should trust you unless you establish your authority in the subject matter that you want people to buy.

"Trust me" is not enough.

For all I know you've never made a dollar in the market.

Prove it. Prove it before anybody sends you any money.

I understand the skepticism. I could easily post screenshots, but then how would you know they aren't fabricated? Having said that I understand that what if I take the money and run , is a possibility. So I will propose this to people in this forum: If you want to explore what I have to offer, I will run through the course with the first 3 people. I will not take any money upfront. If you think it was worth it, then you pay me, if you don't then no payment will be required. Zero Risk to the buyer.
 
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jpmartin

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Either way make the money first through a business. A true money-making machine. Then dabble in these types of things. Even a 1000% return on $250 investment is only $2,500. But a 1000% return on $25,000 investment is $250,000. Or a $250,000 investment could be 2.5 million dollars. Compound interest maintains your wealth, explosive growth explodes your wealth.

Sounds easy when you say it like that :)

The problem now is that the public markets are no longer reliable wealth builders, while the private markets exclude almost everybody who isn’t already wealthy. Which is why many are turning to cryptos recently...
 

Big Z

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CELG is up again today and so this trade did not happen.
New trade today.
Long FND @ 56.38
Long FND May 18, 2018 55 Put @ 2.85
Short FND Jul 20 , 2018 60 Call @ 3.00
Net Cost 56.23
Max Risk until Put expiry is 1.23 or 123.00 per 100 shares.
This is a collar strategy and will need adjusting as the trade moves. Also I expect that this position will be on for some time.
Again this trade to showcase the trading strategy (in this case a collar) and not a trade I am actually taking.
 
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Kak

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Cool thread! Subscribed.

I am starting to experience the fact that companies I believe in and so called "riskily" jumped in to single stock exposure harder than I am "supposed" to has yielded pretty good results.

I did things the "SAFE" way for too long, the upside doesn't justify the risk to me. I was spinning my wheels and not getting anywhere.

More aggressive opportunities, more often than not, at least for me, provide upside that cushions unforeseen (and they will happen) downturns.

The biggest thing I have learned managing my own portfolio is that sheep always eventually go to the slaughter.
 

Big Z

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Recap of the four trades taken so far.
Minus 67
Minus 135
Plus 105
Minus 110
Total Minus 207
Always protected from a devastating loss to the account. Low Risk trades that have the potential to give a big return. All we need is one good one.
 
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BobW78

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Can you elaborate on what exactly you will be teaching? I've already purchased a few books and Udemy courses on the subject. I may be interested if you are offering something I have not already covered with those courses. $250 is a lot of money to drop on a vague description. :)

Edit: have you thought about producing a Udemy course or something similar? It might be a good income stream.
 

bringitnow28329

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Well options limit your risk to the amount you ante up to buy an option, but the probability of success in buying an option that expires in the money is very low. Much lower than 50:50.

If you sell an option, the probability of making money is much higher, but there is always the low probability of a black swan type event. Since you can't limit your risk when writing an option, and a stop loss in options could move very far from the price you had intended to exit a trade at, it could be considered a much higher risk than owning the underlying asset outright. Options are also leverage investments by nature and relative to buying the underlying or shorting with a 1:1 margin, they are definitely of high risk.

Options are much more complex than just buy or shorting the underlying outright because options are multi dimensional since you may have to figure out not only the direction, but also the magnitude of the move along with how quickly it will occur. This increases the risk but at the same time increases the profit potential significantly since accepting more risk in the market is normally compensated with a higher potential reward.


That's a myth. Perhaps on par with "starting a business risky" or "fat makes you fat."

Options aren't any more risky the buying or shorting stock. And yet, the mainstream says that's perfectly safe because after all, buying stock is for your retirement.
 

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