trading fast or slow?? need help!

[DustinS]

I never said i expect to get a 10000X return. isnt it more like a 100% return? and its actually i belive less because as i build more money in the account the amount of money per trade goes up. also if you trade intraday you can gain intrest!

I asked before in this thread, does anyone know where to find a calculator for that stuff? or even the formula for me to do it by hand?

and in forex trading if you know what your doing you make money in any market. you can go long or short. you just have to know what way you think its going. if its always going down then hey that much easier!

Money is always fluctuating. it doesnt matter if its going up or down, as long as you can predict which way its going you can make money.

someone said earlier in this thread that its the slowest changing or somethng to that effect. I dont know what you consider fast. the forex market moves 3trillion dollars a day 24 hrs a day 5 days a week. the prices change over a hundred times a minute. if you know what your doing and how to read the charts you make money on alot of the movements.

Going from 250 to 25000$ assuming no capital whatsoever is added is 10000% if you make 100% which is still a very nice gain you are going to have 500$ total counting your initial investment. I'm not privy to Forex trading requirements, but in stocks you need a minimum of 2000$ in your account to apply for a margin account so that you may short sell.

I really am coming off as an a**hole in this thread, but if you don't even understand basic percentages you really need to practice and learn more. On the note of how much money moves through Forex or any other trading vessel, its true billions of dollars are moved every day and if you were psychic you could get rich in a matter of days, but unfortunately in practice thats usually not how it goes. There are quite a few trades I missed out on because I got impatient or scared and they would've turned out to be great trades.

 

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[CarrieW]

ok what i was figuring on is to be able to keep making 100% and building my account. and making 100% again. so with each trade the 100% is more money. am i wrong is this line of thinking?

if you have any resources where i can learn the math for this i would read them in a heartbeat. for this is why I cant figure out what my other goals are. as i said that was and still is the ideal. Im not opposed to it happening slower as long as it eventually happens!

Eta...

I havent done the demos for 3 reasons.

1. I tried many in search of the ones that will do what I need and to learn how to work them.(there are a few ones for under 10k and over)

2. I played around with one of those 100k accounts and there was no point in wasting my time trying to practice before i had any clue what i was doing.

3. I needed to know what the plan was going to be and the rules i was going to follow before i started to practice so I can practice as close to live as possible.

Now that i belive i know what im doing I will be using a demo account thats in the same scales and rules i will be really trading with.

 

[DustinS]

I'm glad you're going to use a demo account, I think it's going to save you a lot of heart ache in the end. On the note of 100% trades one after another you are most seriously wrong in that line of thinking. It just isn't going to happen unless you have psychic abilities, I'm sorry, but thats the way it is.

 

[CarrieW]

some explanations ive read.


When you are trading a mini account the lot sizes are $10,000. that 10k lot is controlled by $100 on margin.

per trade you will generally make $1 for each pip. A pip is1/100 of a penny, but when you multiply it by say $10,000 traded then a pip is equal to $1 of profit (can be more or less depending on the pair you trade)

trade two mini lots and you make $2 per pip and so on

Regular lots are ten times the size of a mini, so you’d be trading $100,000 (with $1,000 on margin) and each pip then is about $10.
Step 1 $0 to $399 trade 1 mini lot 100 pips 5% marigin per trade
Step 2 $400 to $599 trade 2 mini lots 100 pips
Step 3 $600 to $899 trade 3 mini lots 100 pips
Step 4 $900 to $1299 trade 4 mini lots 100 pips switch to 2% margin at $1000
Step 5 $1300 to $1999 trade 5 mini lots 140 pips
Step 6 $2000 to $2999 trade 6 mini lots 166 pips
Step 7 $3000 to $4499 trade 7 mini lots 214 pips
Step 8 $4500 to $6999 trade 8 mini lots 312 pips
Step 9 $7000 to $9999 trade 9 mini lots 333 pips

assuming you follow the rules.

$10,000 in 4 months or so

when you get to $10,000 you trade regular lots rather than mini lots starting back at 1 each $10,000 you add a lot.

Step 10 - $10,000 to $14,999 – trade 1 regular lot – 500 pips
Step 11 - $15,000 to $19,999 – trade 2 regular lots – 250 pips
Step 12 - $20,000 to $29,999 – trade 3 regular lots – 333 pips
if you were to get 100 pips trading 3 regular lots you make 3000 bucks

its not unrealisitic to avrage 100 pips a week if you know what your doing.

Ive only read this explanation i havent done the math. It sounded good to me!

 

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[piranha526]

ive been studying and researching for this for about 18 months or so... im not setting my goals on what some intro to forex guru is saying. ive done my homework.

Studied what? Fairy tales?

If you have studied at least one reputable trader, you would know that $250 will get you NOWHERE (and fast - especailly with leverage)! Try starting with something closer to $10,000 or $25,000 and then you may a real chance. Maybe!

Listen, I don’t want to be an a** but why do you only have $250? I find it extremely hard to believe anyone in the world can trade successfully with such an awfully low amount. Why can’t you put together a stake larger than $250?

Traders only have a chance when starting with $10,000. They have a statistical edge with $100,000 as long as they know how to trade by implementing a plan that incorporates position sizing and expectancy.

I don't want to argue - just debate reality.

 

[CarrieW]

the reason 250 bucks is the lowest i can open an account with that i feel comfortable losing.

your not supposed to trade with emotional or needed money.

I could get more if i wanted too but i decided to start with this. Its fast easy looks to me like i can build it up to where ill have a real sized trading account so i figured why not just try to do it...



No way would i start out with 10k. even if i wanted to I dont have that kind of money!

 

[Rawr]

Well I have to congratulate you on staying persistent. When is the date you are starting to trade?

Some stuff to keep you motivated:

I made like 22% when I opened my stock account with only $500 within a month. Your fees will be a huge part of it, so be ready for that.

A pro poker player started with $1 and I believe made somewhere in tens of thousands if not more playing online.

I guess all that's left is - Just Do It

 

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[CarrieW]

I am hoping to be graduated up to real money by feb-march of 08. It could be in jan or april tho. depends how fast i get the swing of things.

 

[piranha526]

the reason 250 bucks is the lowest i can open an account with that i feel comfortable losing.

your not supposed to trade with emotional or needed money.

I could get more if i wanted too but i decided to start with this. Its fast easy looks to me like i can build it up to where ill have a real sized trading account so i figured why not just try to do it...

No way would i start out with 10k. even if i wanted to I dont have that kind of money!

The odds are stacked so far against you it is not even funny. Traders with only $10,000 are already starting on the wrong side of the ball because they have about 1/10th of the money they need to have a chance to statistically succeed.

When I say trade, I mean to trade for a living because you mentioned your spouse quiitting his job. $250 will not get you there, not a chance, never!

You can play with $250 but that's all, just play. If $250 is all you are comfortable losing, don't bother trading. I was able to gather a few thousand when I started trading in college (when I was broke) more than 10 years ago.

Add another zero to the $250 so at least you can lose a few trades without going bust. One loss and your $250 is gone so what's the point.

Happy Thanksgiving to All!

 

[CarrieW]

did you have a family and kids when you did that? were you working? I dont have a job I cant get one. Im disabled. we are living off of my ssd and my dh paycheck. right now we only make about 4-5k a month. I am supporting a household with that and 2 little ones. even if I could come up with a few grand I would be using it for other things that the family needs not forex trading.

one loss at 5% equity is not going to wipe me out. serveral losses arent great but those wont wipe me out either. if you have proper money managment and trading rules a few small losses arent going to break the bank.

my spouse isnt quitting his job untill I can reliably make money. enough money to support us.

did you read my previous post? 100 dollars lets you trade with 10k lots. forex is a completly different animal from stock market trading, you can use any leverage you choose from 1:1 to 400:1.

so any of you that believe you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that i will fail I appreciate your honesty but untill you understand the leverage you dont even know what your talking about IMO.

You all may b right. But if i listened to everything i was told couldnt be done Id give up and never get out of bed.

 

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[Russ H]

Carrie,

In the cars thread, I thought you had said your husband was just fired from his job? And that he had to give his car back?

I think that's where the assumption of him not working is coming from.

-Russ H.

 

[CarrieW]

When I say trade, I mean to trade for a living because you mentioned your spouse quiitting his job. $250 will not get you there, not a chance, never!

You can play with $250 but that's all, just play. If $250 is all you are comfortable losing, don't bother trading.

So one of the pp posters took 500 and turned it into over 2000 and lost it(proabably didnt do 1/10 of the research into trading that i did) as i go up i will have more money to work with... so if people can get lucky and make 2-5k off 500 bucks how can you say with hard work and determination that I CANT.

Noone thinks i can do this. Ive said this before in this post BUT I honestly expected support here silly me! Maybe Id do better to listen to my mom and you guys. noone understands. To them its a waste of my time and efforts and im just going to fail. I should just sit here on my @$$ and collect my check. Maybe practically that is what i should do. But I DONT THINK SO!

I am going to follow thru with my plans. I am not content to just sit here and collect my check and do nothing. even if its that much harder for me to do it my way, ITS MY WAY and if i never try ill never know. I cant live with what if's.

 

[CarrieW]

yes he did get fired last wednesday. he also got a new job paying more money on tuesday this week and started yesterday.

My husband works his @$$ off to support us. he will continue to do so untill we/I make it.

It will be awesome if I actually acheive what ive set out to do in the short amount of time I believe it will take. but we have 2 kids and need a place to live. We cant live on air.

So once i prove myself and am making his and my income + some then he will quit. Not a minute before.

You ever hear what they say about a$$-u-mptions? if thats everyones concern someone could have asked LOL>

 

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[Russ H]

Carrie,

There is a big difference between someone telling you that you can't do something, and a successful investor cautioning you that your goals may be too aggressive.

You are hearing one thing, but many on this thread are saying the other.

We're not trying to beat you up.

We're asking you to look at your goals, and if they are realistic.

If you set unrealistic goals and fail, how do you feel?

If you set small goals and achieve them, how do you feel?

Most of us have gotten to where we are b/c we've started by taking baby steps. It may not be glamorous, but it's a solid way to begin.

You have my best wishes for success.

-Russ H.

 

[CarrieW]

You see in this thread sucessful forex traders saying my goals are too high?

I havent.

I am all open too constructive critisims. what ive seen and read here are far from it...

I wet my bed. Im wasting my time. If thats all can scrape together why bother.

Untill you understand the forex game and the leverages involved you cant know that...

its not the same thing as rei or building a business or even stock trading.

Untill Ive heard it from a sucessful forex person I am keeping my goals as they are. for nothing ive read in here is any proof it cant be done.

as i said this here is as frusterating as trying to explain this to my mother.

So what if I dont make 25k in 6 months. what if it takes me 3 yrs to do it? its still turning that money into something. its still trying to accopmlish something. I will still be learning invaluable lessons to take with me forward as i go along.

So even with all ive posted if noone thinks I even have a "shot" of doing this, I dont know what to say or do.

One thing i know im not doing is giving up!

this was my ideal plan. not once in this thread has anyone tried to help me come up with an average plan or anything else.

what they want me to say is yeah im serious ill come up with 2500 to start instead. and ill readjust my ideal plan to what you think is doable.

 

[CarrieW]

I'm glad you're going to use a demo account, I think it's going to save you a lot of heart ache in the end. On the note of 100% trades one after another you are most seriously wrong in that line of thinking. It just isn't going to happen unless you have psychic abilities, I'm sorry, but thats the way it is.

Im not under the delusion that i will be right on every trade. even if you lose more trades then you win If your trading according plan, following rules(of trading and mm)knowing exactly what to expect from the trade, having your stops in place and riding your wins till the trends change your smaller number of winning trades is more profitable then your losses cost.

Does everyone here really think Im like delusional? that Just because i havent traded for real money live that i dont understand the rules of trading?

Im seriously at a loss for words here. Thats hard to do so congratulations too all.

I have to say the only thing that you have accomplished with this thread is to give me more drive then ever to succeed at this!:banana:

 

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[CarrieW]

after hitting 25k mark(hubby quits we live off 4k a month)and I build it to 100k.

the first goal in passive income is 5k a month. then 10k then 25k ect to infinity...

My husband says after we are able for him to stop working he wants me to teach him how to forex trade... Im thinking thats not the best idea. wouldnt it be better for him to learn how to do something different to make money? to have multiple streams going?

I have to put this out here for my husband. hes never read rdpd. hes never read a forex book. hes an auto mechanic.(took a 5yr detour into office furniture but now is back)everything he has to go on is what i say. HE believes in me. he loves me. he wants to provide for me.

Once we replace his income and I am able to produce results why shouldnt he quit? we are intending on doing alot with the money we are going to be pulling out of forex. Im going to need his help.

He wants to learn to trade forex for me so once he can stop working he can provide for me still. by taking over, LOL.

I wanted him to concentrate on learning and reading for a while and then comming up with his own views and plans. and then we could work towards our goals together.

Right now its not fair to expect him to be able to do this he works 60-70hrs per week and we have kids. If i went to him and said hey I need 5k to start or im not going to have a shot. he would get me the money.

I want to do it myself. my income goes towards paying bills i only contribute less then 1/5. If I took more then 250 dollars there would be way too much pressure. esp when all ive learned about how to trade and how the brokers work I think i have a shot starting at the 250. you can trade as little as 1 dollar of your own money per trade if thats how you chose to start. You only lose what you put up out of your own money.

and thats it. I dont think theres anything left for me to say here.

 

[DustinS]

400:1 leverage in Forex eh? Ever consider what happens when you lose money with that much leverage.... I'm not even going to bother to look, but I find it extremely hard to believe that any instituion would let you borrow 100000$ with 250$ in your account.

EDIT
You do know leverage is borrowed money right? You know if you lose 1% with 400:1 leverage you would owe your broker 750$ right(assuming the maximum amount borrowed)?

 

[piranha526]

its not the same thing as rei or building a business or even stock trading.

Untill Ive heard it from a sucessful forex person I am keeping my goals as they are. for nothing ive read in here is any proof it cant be done.

Trading is trading, no matter what the vehicle. I am not attacking you but trying to wake you up. The odds are against you so heavily it is not even funny to try to explain. I trade odds, not dreams, wishes, goals, etc. Odds are what make people rich. Calculated odds. $250 shows me that you are steup to fail based on every mathematical odd you will read anywhere. Who is telling you that $250 can be $25,000 in 6 months? Run from that person, run fast! Can you make $25,000 over several years? Of course you can. You may lose a stake of $250 several times before succeeding. You may make $10,000 and give it all back and then reach $25,000. It can happen many ways but $250 to $25,000 in 6 months probably has an odd of at least 10 million to one or greater (if that good).

$250 is chump change that a professional will take from you in no time. I can't say much more than I have watched hundreds, if not more of "your type" come and go because they didn't properly capitalize themselves before trading. Studying and trading are different worlds, 100% different. Virtual accounts mean nothing to real money accounts and I actually think you know this.

Carrie, you are trading people, not markets. Whether it Forex, futures, equities or bonds. People trade people. It is the same game in every market!

Forex allows you to lose 400 times quicker when you make a mistake. Besides, Dustin is right about someone loaning you 400:1 with $250 at stake. Who is taking that chance?

Listen, we can keep talking as I AM here to help because I DO TRADE and have for more than 10 years. I trade people (it doesn’t matter what markets I use). Everyone trades against other people, regardless of the medium. :smxB:

 

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[CarrieW]

This is out of one of the books and it is accurate to real forex trading platforms...

Im sure your used to hearing leverage is a two-edged sword. it is what can cause you to lose alot of money if you trade without rules or stop loss orders.

unlike futures the market that most people assoiate with high leverage, you can never have a debit balance when trading forex.

100k full regular accounts are set to 1% margin. if you lose 20 pips on a regular account its equal to losing 200dollars. leverage at 1% is = to 100:1 1k to trade 100k 1 lot is 100,000 units. you can set it to 2% then your leverage is 50:1 costing 2k per 100k trade. 1 pip is equal to about 10 dollars

mini accounts (depending on broker can be 250-500dollars) are set to .5 margin
leverage is 200:1 lots are 10k units or 50dollars for 1 10k lot 20 pips = to 20dollars 1 pip=1dollar

some brokers do margin at .25 thats 400:1 leverage on whats called a micro mini. where you can control a 10k lot with only 25 dollars.

 

[CarrieW]

Chris have you ever researched into forex trading???
As in the rules of how the margins and leverage works?

each pip is 1/100th of a penny. 20 pip stop loss. what thats 20/100ths of a penny on a 10k lot? thats 20 dollars on a 50 dollar trade lost. yes it wouldnt be good for my account but not detrimental in 1 trade!

 

[piranha526]

Carrie,
I honestly don't know much about Forex. However, I know my fair share about trading people (markets). Ignore my comment about Forex leverage but don't ignore what I am saying about trading people.

I don't trade Forex but I have extensive experience trading equities and less exposure to options and futures.

-Chris

 

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[CarrieW]

one of the biggest parts of trading forex Ive learned is to know what the people and the markets are likely to do... mostly with currency your trading with literaly the entire world. your trading against huge banks and actual central banks of countires. of course all controlled by people! only about 2-5% of the forex market is retail forex trading...

the reason the leverages can run so high is because in forex it deals in fractions of pennies. and when multiplyed by thousands of dollars the actual risk to your money is relitivly small compared to what the leverage leads one to think...

heres a wiki link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_exchange_market

its astonishing whats possible in this unique market.

the more I learn the more facinating it becomes.

 

[hawaiiloans]

I know you can do micro lots or whatever with a very small dollar amount ($200 or so). I had a demo account and grew it to $75,000, from $50,000 but lost half of it at the end. Remember to stay disciplined and jump in when you're consistently making great trades in demo.

 

[MQL]

First I like to say that I admire your focus and determination. Keep on going, demo trading as long as it takes, learning, reading and improving. Don't try to find the Holy Grail, because there is no one.

Treat trading Forex like a business, and like businesses, 95 % don't make it. So be prepared to learn, read, adapt, learn some more, etc... you know the drill.

I am also looking at trading Forex, and studying hard on the issue. I believe that first you must have in a demo account at least 2 months with a 75 % success rate, before thinking of going live.

When I reach that I will go live with a small amount, because I am convinced that it's all different when there is real money on the line (even if it is money I am prepared to loose). I think it is a good way to get to know myself better, before even putting more money on the account. Besides that I need to focus on the pips and not on the money. Get the pips and the money will follow.

With regards to the goals, I don't know, but you read a hell of a lot of nonsense on the internet of how many pips they are all making, which would mean that there are a great number of forex millionaires......

I will try to go for 10 pips a day, and call it a day when I have reached my 10 pips.

I don't remember where I read it but it impressed me, because it said that 10 pips a day & good money management is enough to get rich.

It also said:
10 pips is good
20 pips is great
30 pips is awesome.

There will be trades with more than 10 pips, but there will also be losing days, but on an average 10 pips a day, would be fantastic.

If I could lock in 10 pips a day, I will be on my way to reach my 10 year goals for sure.
10 pips a day would be 200 pips a month. The money management and sizing up of the trades, will automatically get me where I can increase the pip value, without the need of locking in more pips per trade (and taking more risks).


I am re- reading (for the 3rd time) the pre-school and school of pipology of www.babypips.com, which is an extremely good start. They explain also some interesting things with regards to leverage.

Besides that I believe that you should go for it, but be disciplined and patient, and remember the 2 most important rules of the game:

1. Don't lose your money to stay in the game
2. Don't forget rule nr. 1

Good luck with your endeavor and may all your goals be reached!!

Dick
TNT (Today Not Tomorrow)

 

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[aptohosting]

Well question for any of the seasoned stock day traders, what is a good starting amount?

 

[CarrieW]

in the broker I am using they run a monthly contest of mini accounts. these are real people using real money. it goes by % of gains.

1 Natuseko-Reloaded 667.4025%
2 Keyman 634.7302%
3 oferbuzi 365.4782%
4 Player 276.1132%
5 Kobuzou 236.6027%
6 Vivin 203.4661%
7 MrFast 195.6451%
8 Barry Tries Hard 132.3059%
9 FarCry28 125.5530%
10 Be Be 120.3025%

now thats what Im talking about!!

my thought on this is if one person can do it then I can too!!!!

 

[CarrieW]

http://interbankfx.com/Contest/ContestResults.aspx

heres the link in case anyone wants to check it out for themselves.

and just fyi. I entered into a stock trading contest the local paper ran back in 2002. I finished in 8th place out of like 200 or 300 people. it was so long ago I dont remember all the details.

I had no clue what I was doing.

I have no idea what my % of gains were but I was very shocked(as was everyone else I know lol) that I did so well. and that was with no studying or any knowledge of stock trading at all. Ive tried to locate the results to no avail. Id really love to know what my roi was.

if I could do that well without knowing anything I can only imagine what I can do with some knowledge and a plan in the forex market!

 

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[bflbob]

I entered into a stock trading contest the local paper ran back in 2002. I finished in 8th place out of like 200 or 300 people. it was so long ago I dont remember all the details.

I had no clue what I was doing.

I have no idea what my % of gains were but I was very shocked(as was everyone else I know lol) that I did so well. and that was with no studying or any knowledge of stock trading at all. Ive tried to locate the results to no avail. Id really love to know what my roi was.

if I could do that well without knowing anything I can only imagine what I can do with some knowledge and a plan in the forex market!

I did the same thing, probably 25 years ago.
I came in 2nd or 3rd.
I think I kept the article with the results, but have no idea which box it's in.

As I recall, it was 10 weeks long or so, and you started with $100k.

 

[April]

A good amount to start off with really depends on what market you want to trade. I love trading for a living and, yes, anyone can do it but you better be educated in what your trading or your feeling will get hurt. Early on in my education process I started trading options strategies and turned $2K to 25K in two months but then six months later lost nearly $30K in one week...all because of my inexperience. If you drop the emotion and learn how to hegde your trade you will always be in good shape.

Aptohosting, what are you looking to trade?