The F.I.R.E. mindset at work

[WJK]

That looks awesome! A similar thing to what you are talking about happened to John Somnez from Bulldog Mindset. He retired at 33 due to his real estate investments and moved to hawaii and he hated it.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-cGLisPbXA

I retired 18 years ago, but I'm truly not good at it. It's boring and you're right -- depressing. I learned that you must decide what is important to you, and then get up and go on...

 

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[WJK]

This, 100%.

The biggest issue is when somebody chooses that rough path but expects the rest of us to foot the bill...lol

“Please sir... I choose exactly this life because it meant I didn’t have to do anything productive or partake in the rat race... but can a kind soul who DOES partake in the rat race support me? Even though I said I chose this on purpose?...”

yeah I know too many people like this. Dudes from high school who live wherever they find a place to stay, surfing, drinking, smoking, whatever.

Chose the life for selfish reasons but still expect others to pay for them to get all that freedom

In the 1980s, I helped start a shelter for homeless women and their children in Compton, California. I was chairman of the board for 5 years. We also started a feeding program in the church next door for the homeless population that included everyone on the streets. I have seen a lot of stuff during my lifetime. Every time I felt bad during those years about my life, I'd go sit in the community room either at the shelter or at the church. I would listen to two of the women argue over a soda. Or something equally silly. I then went home feeling much better about my life. They reminded me why I was doing what I was doing in my businesses.

I can say that most of them don't know that they had a choice and that they had made that choice to be where they are. They didn't understand the law of cause and effect. They didn't know that their actions had put them in that position. Most (and I've talked to thousands of people) thought that their lot in life just fell on them through no fault of their own. It was just a natural occurrence. But, they were always asking me why I worked so hard -- when in their minds, I didn't have to. At times, I had one of them tell me that I need to get a life because I just never had any fun. I would gently remind them that I owned my own shower, kitchen, home, etc. And I wasn't in the shelter with them, sleeping in the next bed. Most of the time, that information didn't make much of an impression on them...

 

[WJK]

This is an amazing comment.

There is so much wisdom right there alone.

It can’t really be understated...

“Why are you trying so hard? You are successful already!”

“Well, you see, I am successful because I try so hard...”

I have a standard reply... "I never want to go hungry again!"

That usually stops them in their tracks. They usually don't know I went to Los Angeles when I was a 19-year-old, scrawny, country girl. I went there to go to school in 1972. And yes, it was often that I ran out of food money in those days. From that start, I've had an amazing life stuffed with successes that I never could have dreamed of achieving.

I like your answer too. Your success is because you try so hard! Ditto! Me too.

 

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[Mathuin]

It's like F.I.R.E. except the goal is to have millions more when you "quit" working.

Now we're talking!

 

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[WJK]

@WJK

there is a book called “Mindset” and it is exactly about that. Fixed mindset is “I’m just not good at _____”, these are the people you describe. Growth mindset is “I presently struggle with ____ and I will get good at it eventually”.

When I was young, I thought everyone could do what I could do. I'd try to explain... well, you do this, and then that, and you get this result... During my explanation, their eyes would glaze over for even the most basic things. I was totally baffled by their lack of vision. So, I have learned over the years that most people can't just look at a problem and figure how to fix it step by step. What is so obvious to me, is mysterious to them. So I go on without trying to drag them along. Once I figure out "the-way-how" to solve that type of problem, I then do the same type of fix each time, making small improvements along the way. Most problems have elegantly simple solutions. It's the approach of the people who own that problem that makes it all so complicated.

 

[Harman]

 

[Timmy C]

View attachment 38181
Yikes. No gifts? Really?

Teaching “success.”

I would rather live in the slow lane forever than live that life.

Talk about depressing.

 

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[Madame Peccato]

I'm so financially free I'm gonna sell a bootcamp where I tell you how to make money.

He turned into any other guru. Instead of renting planes or lambos to impress people, he got himself a miserable life. And the suckers gobbled it up. They are going to buy his course, since he appeared on the news.

Pain.

 

[Guest-5ty5s4]

The biggest sin of F.I.R.E. is simply a lack of creativity.

 

[Kak]

A $75,000 truck is middle class?
A $30,000 ATV/Rock crawler is middle class?

Uh, OK.



You missed the point.

I don't care about their modern day ascetic lifestyle. Good for them.

However, no matter how you want to slice it, these folks are NOT financially independent.

My issue isn't with how these folks live -- I could give a shit.

My issue is with the media (and them) redefining financial freedom. Well if these are the new rules, guess what?

I'm now identify as a billionaire.

Why?

I have a networth of a billion+ pennies, so now, I'm a billionaire because I say so, and it is my new definition. And everyone needs to respect it.

If you want to go through life with this delusional definition of "financial freedom" be my guest.

If you want to dumb down "financial independence" into this form of financial fanaticism, be my guest.

And you're at the wrong forum to argue for it.

Want to know what real financial freedom looks like?

It means living your life, every day, without financial restraint. Notice those words, "financial" and "restraint".

Financial = Money.
Freedom = Without restraint.

Do these people live financially without restraint? Nope, not even remotely close. It's like an 400 lb obese person wanting culture to label them "healthy."

When you're truly financially free, YOU KNOW IT.

YOU FEEL IT.

YOU LIVE IT.

NO CALCULATOR IS NEEDED.

NO RESTRAINT IS NEEDED.

When I go to a restaurant, I have no budget. I can eat and drink whatever I want. And every day.

If I want to take a first class flight to Costa Rica and spend two months there, I can.

When I go to a store, I have no budget. I can fill the shopping cart until it holds nothing more -- with whatever I want. That last time I looked at a price at a store was 20 years ago.

When I go to a car dealership, I have no budget -- if like that Lamborghini, I can buy it and three more, and pay cash for it with nothing else changing for me financially.

The word "budget" is not in my daily, weekly, or monthly vocabulary unless it relates to a multi-million-dollar house -- which is not a daily, weekly, or monthly expenditure.

My daily existence is not ruled by an authoritarian dictator known as money.

FREE from money? LOL X 1000 - NO, these poor folks are OWNED by money.




Actually, that comment was based on supposition, not based on some extensive financial calculator.

Nonetheless, you proved my point by posting a calculator.

I don't need a calculator --again, because I live truly financially independent.

Financial independence doesn't need a calculator for daily, weekly, or monthly living.

If these folks can survive a 50% market decline and a 3 year recession it still doesn't change the facts: They do not have financial freedom, they have time freedom.

It's no strawman that the guy admitted he had to give up dining out, his cars, and other passions all for this suck fest.

I get it, he's proud for owning his time and I agree with that foundation.

However there's a big difference between time freedom + time AND financial freedom. The panhandling bum on the street also has time freedom, as does the unemployed college graduate who still lives at home with his parents, but they don't have financial freedom.

In all cases, every penny needs to be religiously monitored and worshiped.

It's a cult and Money is their Jim Jones.

Enjoy the Koolaid...

And you did this without crypto?

 

[Kevin88660]

I think there is a lot of limitations to this as discussed by others, besides living an insane frugal life.

1)Rather high salary than average joe is required. How every FIRE leader was once working in IT
2) Extreme good investment return and macro market dependent
3) Usually semi-retirement rather than full retirement

I would personally think this is great path provided that it is being marketed objectively, instead of being sold as the full solution.

I think this is great if it is marketed as one option to get "first pot of gold", a term that is used frequently in the Chinese speaking community. Every great riches needs to start with somewhere with a first pot of gold.

Instead of aiming semi-retirement at 1 million, just go for 400k so that you can aim for a business life full time. Never worried about rental and initial investment again. Again only applicable if you have a high income and didn't invest at the top of the market.

 

[Antifragile]

What happens to these retired people if she gets pregnant? Lol, that will poke a few holes in their budget

They stopped poking a while ago. Not in the budget.
Hahaha.

 

[MJ DeMarco]

Sounds like we are seeing eye to eye on this, but in stark opposition to most on here.

You conveniently left out that he gave up everything he enjoyed -- eating out, fast cars, etc.

When you're giving up things you genuinely enjoy and money limits your daily activities, you're not free.

They own their time, but money owns their daily choices.

I think the question is where is the financially free line to each person?

I would think "financial freedom" would be at the point where you stop thinking about money in your daily life whereas the word "budget" doesn't exist -- AND you can do exactly what you want on a daily, weekly, and monthly basis.

Being "free" of something means not having to worry about it.

It appears that these extreme FIRE folks are not only thinking about money every second of the day, they've become euthanized by it.

Everyone has a “budget” in some way.

Absolutely. I have a budget when it comes to rare, discretionary single-purchase items usually related to luxury goods--- stuff like RVs, yachts, vacation homes, etc. These things are not related to my life unless I make them. Abstinence from buying a yacht, and abstinence from eating out at Olive Garden a few times a month are two entirely different things.

Has anyone here ever heard of the subreddit called r/fatFIRE ?

It's like F.I.R.E. except the goal is to have millions more when you "quit" working.

I'm not entirely familiar with it, but from my cursory understanding, it somewhat reflects my philosophy because it requires millions and is immune from economic recessions, it allows lifestyle freedom, and allows passions to be followed without market confirmation.

I really interpret these news articles as the media lap dogs saying, "Look, these people did it, you can too!"

Yes, they are simply pushing narratives to serve an agenda; work hard, save your money and give it to Wall Street, and own nothing to be happy. This is the media's version of "new rich" which is why you can expect more of it.

 

[Guest-5ty5s4]

In the 1980s, I helped start a shelter for homeless women and their children in Compton, California. I was chairman of the board for 5 years. We also started a feeding program in the church next door for the homeless population that included everyone on the streets. I have seen a lot of stuff during my lifetime. Every time I felt bad during those years about my life, I'd go sit in the community room either at the shelter or at the church. I would listen to two of the women argue over a soda. Or something equally silly. I then went home feeling much better about my life. They reminded me why I was doing what I was doing in my businesses.

I can say that most of them don't know that they had a choice and that they had made that choice to be where they are. They didn't understand the law of cause and effect. They didn't know that their actions had put them in that position. Most (and I've talked to thousands of people) thought that their lot in life just fell on them through no fault of their own. It was just a natural occurrence. But, they were always asking me why I worked so hard -- when in their minds, I didn't have to. At times, I had one of them tell me that I need to get a life because I just never had any fun. I would gently remind them that I owned my own shower, kitchen, home, etc. And I wasn't in the shelter with them, sleeping in the next bed. Most of the time, that information didn't make much of an impression on them...

This is an amazing comment.

There is so much wisdom right there alone.

It can’t really be understated...

“Why are you trying so hard? You are successful already!”

“Well, you see, I am successful because I try so hard...”

 

[Harman]

Ah yes, the "optimizing mediocrity" lifestyle which now gets headline treatment at all financial rags.

When the recession and "reset" hits, these people are in for a rude awakening.

They swapped one dependence (a job) to another (the stock market). Sorry, but this isn't financial independence and more than living underneath a bridge in a cardboard box while eating freely at the local shelter.

What's worse, is the mainstream media and its media sycophants are delusionally calling this "financial independence" because it creates more "savings rats" for the economic religion known as the rat-race.

I even discuss this a tiny bit in the sample chapters of The Great Rat-Race Escape.

It's funny, I never noticed just how pervasive these mindsets are but after reading TMF and Unscripted , you see them everywhere!

Can't thank you enough for what you've created @MJ DeMarco.

I'm trying to get as much key information that I can use out of these encounters.

It's weird but I look at these articles and examples as motivation to keep me going. It's exactly like seeing some morbidly obese person and using that image when it's 5am and I reeeeeally don't want to go for a run. Picture the fat guy, and getting out the door becomes the easiest thing in the world.

 

[Deleted78083]

I know so many people that see this story as the ultimate in success.

It's because the purpose of life for most people is to do nothing (and for people that work for the government, it's to do nothing while being paid).

"Retire early!" "Retire in your 30s!" etc. The keyword is "retire".

This couple worked and now they have achieved their purpose. Good for them!

They kinda look like morons, but they're happy.

To me, their situation is still better than the slowlane. At least they get to read books and do sport all day.

I find it infuriating that someone who has to religiously count pennies and has to deny themselves from every expenditure has the balls to call themselves financially independent -- and the media empowers them.

It's a vocabulary problem. Financial independence in media language means "not needing to have a job to survive".

These people survive without having a job. So they are financially independent.

 

[e_fastlane]

If the stock market lost 50% of its value and stayed there for the next 3 years, would you need to get a job? If yes, you're not financially independent. If you can't spend more than $50 a month at a nice restaurant because of your radical "budget", you're not financially independent.

Funny how the word "financial independence" has lost its meaning...

Where are you getting this information? Seems like you setup a weak strawman just to knock it down. They have a 1.2 mil portfolio and they spend 40k a year.

There are tools (like here) that will run simulations on every single possible outcome depending on when you put your money in last 100+ years. Taking out 40k a year ADJUSTED for inflation for 40 years would result in ZERO historical failures. That means that if today they have 1.2million in their portfolio, tomorrow a recession hits that is as bad and long as the great depression... They can keep taking out and inflation adjusted 40k EVERY YEAR and even then they won't run out of money. Thats even considering the ABSOLUTE worst historic case scenario. So where are you getting that they are at the whims of the stock market? They are as solidly financially independent as you realistically can be, as long as they never want to spend more lavishly than now. Nothing is guaranteeing that the next 40 years won't be worse than any other 40 year period we have ever had, and maybe they run out of money. But it's not like anyone is chopping off their hands. So they can always go back to work. But if we are talking about such extreme case scenarios, none of us are financially secure for the rest of our lives either. Try starting your own business while living in the USSR. Nothing is guaranteeing we won't have that here in 30 years either.

I don't disagree that this isn't the lifestyle I would want to live either, but that is just a value judgement. As long as they are happy with the lifestyle, why should they care about our opinion on it. Makes no more sense than insisting chocolate ice cream is better than vanilla. Biophase seems to be the only poster on here that is able to separate fact from moral judgements. I know people that are not ambitious and just don't care for material things or extravagant experiences. What are they supposed to do, consume just to impress the rest of us?

Again, I agree with your opinion on their lifestyle and I agree that it is sappy for media to be glorifying them. I just don't agree with your claim that they can't be financially independent in their situation and how harshly you're morally judging them for choosing a different lifestyle.

 

[Antifragile]

@MJ DeMarco nailed it.
This forum brings together entrepreneurs. This is the absolute worst and wrong place to try to argue that living on a budget is financial freedom. The whole point of what we all try (and some of us succeed in doing) is to avoid sacrificing and settling for less. The whole point here is a pursuit of more, so much more that “budget” isn’t in our vocabulary.

Choosing not to buy a luxury car is different than not being able to afford one.

 

[Harman]

I really interpret these news articles as the media lap dogs saying, "Look, these people did it, you can too!"

The article goes to great lengths to tout the pros of this lifestyle, sure there are mention of the things they initially gave up. You can really dig into the article to find them.

In a way you can even appreciate the narrative that the bar for "financial freedom" (as defined by them) is considerably lower than you would expect.

This couple made a choice and maybe (even hopefully) it will work out for them. Let's face it. Living a spartan lifestyle instead of the boss-in-your-face, soul-sucking, meaningless 9-to-5 rat-race might be a considerable improvement.

I really appreciate the comments from @MJ DeMarco and @Andy Black, I want my life to have purpose, to have meaning. I want to help people, to solve their problems.

A feeling we all share on this forum.

It just so happens that this mindset can also equate to financial validation as long as we stick to it, grind through the trials and find ways to reach as many people as we can.

 

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[Guest-5ty5s4]

Has anyone here ever heard of the subreddit called r/fatFIRE ?

It's like F.I.R.E. except the goal is to have millions more when you "quit" working.

A lot of entrepreneurs seem to frequent that spot too.

There is still a lot of poor mindset even on that subreddit from people with millions (wow) but it's a lot better than the more standard FIRE crap. Yes, even decamillionaires can be total fools with their heads in the sand.

Reminds me more of the Unscripted Money System though.

 

[WJK]

Where are you getting this information? Seems like you setup a weak strawman just to knock it down. They have a 1.2 mil portfolio and they spend 40k a year.

There are tools (like here) that will run simulations on every single possible outcome depending on when you put your money in last 100+ years. Taking out 40k a year ADJUSTED for inflation for 40 years would result in ZERO historical failures. That means that if today they have 1.2million in their portfolio, tomorrow a recession hits that is as bad and long as the great depression... They can keep taking out and inflation adjusted 40k EVERY YEAR and even then they won't run out of money. Thats even considering the ABSOLUTE worst historic case scenario. So where are you getting that they are at the whims of the stock market? They are as solidly financially independent as you realistically can be, as long as they never want to spend more lavishly than now. Nothing is guaranteeing that the next 40 years won't be worse than any other 40 year period we have ever had, and maybe they run out of money. But it's not like anyone is chopping off their hands. So they can always go back to work. But if we are talking about such extreme case scenarios, none of us are financially secure for the rest of our lives either. Try starting your own business while living in the USSR. Nothing is guaranteeing we won't have that here in 30 years either.

I don't disagree that this isn't the lifestyle I would want to live either, but that is just a value judgement. As long as they are happy with the lifestyle, why should they care about our opinion on it. Makes no more sense than insisting chocolate ice cream is better than vanilla. Biophase seems to be the only poster on here that is able to separate fact from moral judgements. I know people that are not ambitious and just don't care for material things or extravagant experiences. What are they supposed to do, consume just to impress the rest of us?

Again, I agree with your opinion on their lifestyle and I agree that it is sappy for media to be glorifying them. I just don't agree with your claim that they can't be financially independent in their situation and how harshly you're morally judging them for choosing a different lifestyle.

I totally understand your argument. I know street people who are there by choice. They would rather be homeless than part of the rat race to make a more traditional living. Everyone has his own standards for how they want to live. Some people need a lot to feel that they have made it in life. Others need very little.
You're right about the long-term prospects. Nothing is guaranteed. I have known many people who lost everything and had to start over -- IF that was their choice.

 

[AceVentures]

I have cut my family's grocery bill to zero by eating exclusively at Krispy Kreme three times per day. Great way to hack this deal is by visiting multiple Krispy Kreme locations and also dressing up as a different person each time.

F.I.R.E! Every dollar counts guys!

 

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[Antifragile]

Not for me. The whole point of success for me is to actually be successful.
This is settling and justifying your decision after the fact.
Don’t get me wrong, I can and do enjoy a nice off the grid vacation. But that’s just it, it’s good because it’s not permanent.
But then, to each their own.

 

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[Guest-5ty5s4]

It is financial fanaticism in the name of optimizing mediocrity and calling yourself "financially independent."

If you were truly financially free, you wouldn't need to sell your toys.
If you were truly financially free, you wouldn't need to deny yourself dinners at restaurants.
If you were truly financially free, you wouldn't need to deny yourself of virtually any convenience or luxury.
If you were truly financially free, a "budget" wouldn't be in your vocabulary for daily living necessities.

I find it infuriating that someone who has to religiously count pennies and has to deny themselves from every expenditure has the balls to call themselves financially independent -- and the media empowers them.

Stuff like this makes me vomit, but in today's culture, up is down, and down is up.

I find it infuriating not that THE COUPLE has “the balls” to call themselves financially independent while barely eking out an existence...

But rather, I find it infuriating that the scripted dogma (here propagated by the media) suggests that THIS should be the highest and best use of a person’s life - and that nobody should have more, want more, or be more.

Like this is the goal, the pinnacle, of what a free person can achieve.

They really want everyone to stay on a short leash it appears.

 

[Kak]

I find it infuriating not that THE COUPLE has “the balls” to call themselves financially independent while barely eking out an existence...

But rather, I find it infuriating that the scripted dogma (here propagated by the media) suggests that THIS should be the highest and best use of a person’s life - and that nobody should have more, want more, or be more.

Like this is the goal, the pinnacle, of what a free person can achieve.

They really want everyone to stay on a short leash it appears.

You just observed a death of opportunity in that article. What could have been. I personally believe people are all capable of something very cool and meaningful if they have the balls to actually do it.

It is hard to believe there is much for meaning in spending $40k a year, sharing a car, living in a trailer, not giving his wife gifts, living to do nothing every day and bragging about it on CNBC.

 

[Madame Peccato]

Great analysis of what few people refuse to say...

This might be "time freedom", but it's not "financial freedom."

And to call it so is lie, and a lie to yourself just to check a box for a narrative.

Just because CNBC says this kind of financial fanaticism is financial freedom, doesn't make it true.

My next video on YouTube will be on this, which anyway, is long overdue.

You can't have time freedom without (at least partial) financial freedom. I don't know if you can fully describe it statistically, but having 0% financial freedom and 100% time freedom, like these people, sounds miserable.

I'd rather be a little less free (having to work, say, 10 hours per week), and have way higher financial freedom.

BUT. Like I mentioned in my last post, they have at least "some" financial freedom. In fact, the guy has a course about financial freedom. Is it a guru course? You can bet your a$$. If it works it works though. Surely he has some leverage on his money thanks to this.

I'm grateful for news like this one. They let me polish my views of the fastlane, and remind me that there are extremes I want to avoid.

 

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[Kid]

Off-topic:

W: Let's toast our lifestyle with some champagne!

M: Uh, we don't have any champagne and we can't afford to buy any for this photo-shoot.

W: Damn, you're right. But in a news article about financial independence, shouldn't we splurge and just buy it?

M: No, we didn't budget for champagne -- that's how we're financially free now! We can't break our budget just because a magazine wants us us to.

W: I'll go pump some water from the well -- they'll never know.

M: Yes, great idea!

Woman pumps water and returns filling the champagne flutes with water.

M: Toast darling! Here's to being financially independent!

Meanwhile someone, somewhere in the world is filling champagne bottles with soda water and sells them for $5 a pop.

On Topic:

There was a post written by some lower level of Microsoft employee (lets stray away
from that it was MS, it could be any other company).
So he was waiting at the cafeteria and Steve Ballmer came to order a muffin.
Cafeteria worker said the price.
Steve looked inside wallet, searched for a bit and didn't find smaller bill.
So he took $20, gave it to worker, took his muffin and walked away.


I'm not saying that being rich means you should overpay.
The point is that financial freedom should let you do whatever
you want to do that can be legally paid for.

Financial freedom is when you start thinking how or what to do,
instead of thinking about its affordability.

 

[Guest-5ty5s4]

I think the question is where is the financially free line to each person? Remember it's all relative to the mindset of the person. I think I am financially free, however I can't afford a yacht or a private jet. Someone who is making $100k a year, they would look at me and say that I'm financially free. But someone with $25M probably would not.

We talk about someone sacrificing by not going to restaurants. A billionaire would talk about me sacrificing by not flying private. I think I'm ok at my current net worth level. Someone wealthier may not, they may think I'm taking my foot off the pedal too early.

I think it's all relative, but I also agree that there is a poverty point where I roll my eyes when someone tells me they are financially free. It could be someone living in a tiny home in the middle of nowhere for me, for someone else it could be someone living in a free and clear house, but has only $2k coming in a month to live.

Like MJ, I don't look at restaurant prices. I can buy many things without thinking about it. But I can't get a new Mclaren without really thinking about it.

I think this makes the most sense.

Everyone has a “budget” in some way. You can’t buy anything and everything, even if you’re Jeff Bezos.

Sure, consumer goods and experiences become virtually unlimited... But then you look at real estate and realize even the richest individual can only buy a block or two in New York City.

And don't forget stuff like spaceflight or more exotic ideas and experiences... Those are not commodities you can just "purchase," even as a billionaire. There is so much beyond financial freedom.

 

[Kak]

What happens to these retired people if she gets pregnant? Lol, that will poke a few holes in their budget

I feel like I’m the only one that was surprised how cheap babies are…

After a lifetime of hearing how horribly expensive they are, and watching people sell their boats and cars because they have a kid on the way… I expected it to cost more than this…

 

[PapaGang]

These people accomplished a lot more than I have on the wealth front. That takes tremendous effort. I applaud them. They have a higher net worth than I do. But I don't have to think about whether or not I should go out to eat, and I certainly buy my family gifts, so I have what they are missing. Cash flow. Also I love my job, and I'm happy working on my business on the side, which should grow into something great for me, so I also have purpose, which they seem to lack. The purpose gives me meaning.

I think the FIRE people need to listen to those old Joe Dominguez tapes again.
Clearly they missed the part where he states that you need to DEFINE what "enough" is for you, and what sort of higher purpose you want to live for.
People skim too much. More in-depth study.