The F.I.R.E. mindset at work

[Harman]

Thats pretty decent net worth given their set up.

I would have picked a better spot though - a nice little surf town in Mexico with some good waves and cold beers.

View attachment 38175

"Perhaps the most drastic change they made was limiting their restaurant budget to $50 per month, a difficult task for Steve, a restaurant aficionado who says he once made a point to visit an eatery a day for a full year."

What is the point - just set up a small online business that takes like 10 hours a month, move somewhere which is fun on such a cheap budget, and actually enjoy being frugal.

Saving skills 10/10
Imagination 1/10

Love that image. It seems so simple to do, but can you blame them for not knowing there's a better way?

The financial rags out there advocate fiscal frugality and the idea of creating your own business is becoming taboo. @Kak mentions several times in his podcast that to be poor and struggling is popular.

Side note. You're really well travelled and man I love that! Where is this picture from?

 

[Itizn]

They'll be back in the job market this decade

 

[Kak]

It looks like they aren't doing ANYTHING but sitting around, patting each other on their backs for 'cutting the cord'.

Hahahaha! “I know! Let’s be awesome at being poor! That’s how we’ll do it!”

You took the words right out of my mouth. They’re really proud of themselves.

Living in a trailer doesn’t make you cool. It makes you homeless.

Episode 201 of KBRS... maybe... owning these FIRE douchebags.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxuwXczWQC0

 

[Harman]

I find it infuriating that someone who has to religiously count pennies and has to deny themselves from every expenditure has the balls to call themselves financially independent -- and the media empowers them.

It's modern day asceticism at its finest.

It would be amazing if there was any kind of way to keep tabs on this couple, to see how long their "financially-free early retirement" lasts.

You took the words right out of my mouth.

I'm probably listening to your podcast too much. I swear you're like my spirit animal. You perfectly voice my inner thoughts.

 

[SEBASTlAN]

Time freedom?
Location freedom?
Financial freedom?

Employees lack the first and second. These guys (and the homeless) lack the third.

 

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[biophase]

View: https://youtu.be/y3rkjDJtTAw

 

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[PapaGang]

View attachment 38181
Yikes. No gifts? Really?

Teaching “success.”

That's...

depressing.

 

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[e_fastlane]

But the article paints a picture where they actually clearly do care about such things...

He had a supercharged corvette, Yamaha sport bike, a Cadillac CTS, that “indulgent” 1600 square foot home with a pool, daily meals out...

He clearly DOES like that shit, but decided not to have any of it and to be self righteous about not having it.

Desiring to go out for a meal every day and then preceding to budget $50 per month for it is not financial independence. They are very dependent on a budget. It’s literally wasting life.

If you’re not doing what you want, you should be figuring out how to do what you want. They, instead, are ignoring what they actually want out of life.

I understand there are minimalists. I understand that there are people that don’t give a damn, but they aren’t those people.

Does he still want those things? MJ use to have a lambo and now drives a middle class car. Basically same story for both my business partner and I.

I am DEFINITELY not saying I know that they aren't just BS'ing both themselves and us. Who knows.

Until there is. Have you ever looked at a graph of hyperinflation? There’s no constant to play the math off of.

I‘d easily bet the people with the average conservative, lazy, Edward Jones portfolio are going to lose HARD to inflation over the next 40 years.

Only the intelligent and creative are going to gain.

I assume you are using the word hyperinflation in a colloquial way to signify high inflation rather than in it's actual meaning (inflation on the order of 50% PER MONTH.)

The calculators use the history of the last century for both market and inflation. So Yea, it does account for crazy inflation, like in the 70s, 80s, etc

Obviously the best way to best inflation is having a business. No arguments there. But having money in the market is a distant 2nd best atleast.

If you mean actual hyperinflation, we all have bigger problems, business owner or not.

Lastly, I didn't spend much time looking into these people at all. A light look does show he has some kind of online business selling masterminds or something like that....... Seems to me there is more to the story than just living on 40k......Maybe some kind of business afterall and we are all just hating that he got free advertisement on the media!

 

[GPM]

I feel like I’m the only one that was surprised how cheap babies are…

After a lifetime of hearing how horribly expensive they are, and watching people sell their boats and cars because they have a kid on the way… I expected it to cost more than this…

Cheap is relative and you know it.

Selling toys I think has more to do with the lack of time to use them. However, 99% of people who have kids also work a 9-5 job and then come home to screaming children.

Just wait Kyle, soon little shark is gonna be eating as much at mealtime as you, and going through a Costco box of diapers a week.

 

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[Kak]

Cheap is relative and you know it.

Selling toys I think has more to do with the lack of time to use them. However, 99% of people who have kids also work a 9-5 job and then come home to screaming children.
Just wait Kyle, soon little shark is gonna be eating as much at mealtime as you, and going through a Costco box of diapers a week.

Babies. Are. Cheap.

 

[Guest-5ty5s4]

For a really insane look at mega-rich FIRE possibilities, look at Ross Perot.

He once purchased nearly a billion dollars just in US treasury bills, with a measly 1 or 2% return.

Here's an old article from 1992 about the bonds and things he was invested in:

Perot's Fortune Invested in Tax-Free State, Municipal Bonds Nationwide

WASHINGTON (AP) _ Texas businessman Ross Perot revealed a glimpse of where his $3 billion self-made fortune is invested. In the biggest financial disclosure form ever filed by a presidential candidate, Perot reported extensive holdings in tax- free state and municipal bonds from Hawaii to...

apnews.com

Those are the government bonds that super rich politicians like John Kerry and Nancy Pelosi invest in, too.

They're tax free because they are bonds used by cities and governments.

 

[redshift]

Has anyone here ever heard of the subreddit called r/fatFIRE ?

It's like F.I.R.E. except the goal is to have millions more when you "quit" working.

In the T.I.R.E community, this would be known as flatTIRE - Where you are just so tired of living that you lay down on the spot and take a nap

 

[e_fastlane]

Oooh drive-by passive aggression…

No one is mad at you for your views, but why are you so triggered by ours snowflake?

I didn't think anyone was mad at me and I wasn't mad at anyone, just had a difference of opinion. Projecting?

The funny part is that my actual opinion on lifestyle and financial freedom is aligned with your guys opinion. Many keep misunderstanding that I am not criticizing the opinion, but the action of judging others harshly for having a different opinion.

The same exact point BioPhase is making. Hence why I quotes him and said I agree.

You conveniently left out that he gave up everything he enjoyed -- eating out, fast cars, etc.

When you're giving up things you genuinely enjoy and money limits your daily activities, you're not free.

They own their time, but money owns their daily choices.

I'm not here to defend him. But if that is what he chooses, sounds great.

I think we are talking past each other. I think you agree with my basic premise that it's not for us to decide what will make them happy and if they are happy with their choices and life, let them live how they want. I think what your actual critique may be is that the media is only emphasizing one side of their story and it is very misleading. Media is selling their version of F.I.R.E as a way to become "rich" and knowingly only showing the good sides (time freedom) without showing that doing it their way actually leaves them poor in many other ways that most people would find objectionable. I agree with you on this.

For anyone that can do basic math, even a CD makes 3-5% return.

I thought math was always my strong suite, but I guess basic math eludes me. Please show me a CD that will make me 3%-5% yearly returns.

 

[Guest-5ty5s4]

I totally understand your argument. I know street people who are there by choice. They would rather be homeless than part of the rat race to make a more traditional living. Everyone has his own standards for how they want to live. Some people need a lot to feel that they have made it in life. Others need very little.
You're right about the long-term prospects. Nothing is guaranteed. I have known many people who lost everything and had to start over -- IF that was their choice.

This, 100%.

The biggest issue is when somebody chooses that rough path but expects the rest of us to foot the bill...lol

“Please sir... I choose exactly this life because it meant I didn’t have to do anything productive or partake in the rat race... but can a kind soul who DOES partake in the rat race support me? Even though I said I chose this on purpose?...”

yeah I know too many people like this. Dudes from high school who live wherever they find a place to stay, surfing, drinking, smoking, whatever.

Chose the life for selfish reasons but still expect others to pay for them to get all that freedom

 

[Timmy C]

This is his twitter:

Steve | Millionaire Habits (@SteveOnSpeed): https://twitter.com/SteveOnSpeed?s=07

 

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[Ing]

Why do you consider that articles as 100% true.
If someone can bring 1000 of people discussing about an article, he probably can have that as a fastlane business without telling everybody.

I could in 2 hours copy that article with my pics and would the world talk about it? No. They are good at copywriting, marketing and so on.

 

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[Kak]

Sounds like we are seeing eye to eye on this, but in stark opposition to most on here.

Oooh drive-by passive aggression…

No one is mad at you for your views, but why are you so triggered by ours snowflake?

 

[hexelbyte]

For a really insane look at mega-rich FIRE possibilities, look at Ross Perot.

He once purchased nearly a billion dollars just in US treasury bills, with a measly 1 or 2% return.

Here's an old article from 1992 about the bonds and things he was invested in:

Perot's Fortune Invested in Tax-Free State, Municipal Bonds Nationwide

WASHINGTON (AP) _ Texas businessman Ross Perot revealed a glimpse of where his $3 billion self-made fortune is invested. In the biggest financial disclosure form ever filed by a presidential candidate, Perot reported extensive holdings in tax- free state and municipal bonds from Hawaii to...

apnews.com

Those are the government bonds that super rich politicians like John Kerry and Nancy Pelosi invest in, too.

They're tax free because they are bonds used by cities and governments.

I would like to say that a 1-2% return is basically just enough to counteract inflation.
In other words, a 0% return to a minor loss in buying power.

For anyone that can do basic math, even a CD makes 3-5% return.
Sometimes, I wonder if people understand that paying tax with a big return is much better than tax-free - zero return.

 

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[Guest-5ty5s4]

I would like to say that a 1-2% return is basically just enough to counteract inflation.
In other words, a 0% return to a minor loss in buying power.

For anyone that can do basic math, even a CD makes 3-5% return.
Sometimes, I wonder if people understand that paying tax with a big return is much better than tax-free - zero return.

True, but this was also at a different time with a different economy with different interest rates and a different rate of inflation.

Point is, Perot had so much money yet he put it into one of the (supposedly) “safest” assets even with a non existent return. 1% on a billion is 10 million per year

 

[Train]

I think where FIRE gets it right is not spending beyond one's means and looking beyond the sidewalk and slowlane.

It opened me to saving money as cushion/capital to eventually delve into business full-time. And some FIRE people do that.

But I draw the line when they recommend I buy a used 1980 Ford Pinto with 500k miles on it because a new car is a "bad investment."

For non-minimalists, FIRE is good as a trampoline, nothing more in my opinion.

Of note: Financial Samurai, a FIRE blogger, left early retirement as his passive income was not enough. He also felt a need to be productive. 42-year-old millionaire: I tried to retire early at 34—but failed. Here's what went wrong

 

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[hexelbyte]

I thought math was always my strong suite, but I guess basic math eludes me. Please show me a CD that will make me 3%-5% yearly returns.

Welp, last time I checked back in 2018, CD's did have a return of 3% / year.

Now that I looked it up in 2021, a 3-month would yield around 0.4% (0.4 * 4 = 1.6%).

Pretty bad due to the low interest rate environment.
However, bonds are still doing "ok".

Reason why I don't pay attention to CD's is because they are still terrible and just focused on better investments.
Why waste time around terrible people right?

 

[RogS]

Ah yes, the "optimizing mediocrity" lifestyle which now gets headline treatment at all financial rags.

When the recession and "reset" hits, these people are in for a rude awakening. This is what happens when a ten-year bull market and rising equity prices lobotomizes Slowlaners.

They swapped one dependence (a job) to another (the stock market). Sorry, but this isn't financial independence any more than living underneath a bridge in a cardboard box while eating freely at the local shelter.

What's worse, is the mainstream media and its media sycophants are delusionally calling this "financial independence" because it creates more "savings rats" for the economic religion known as the rat-race. And now I'm betting they will "sell this lifestyle" as an entrepreneurial venture (blogs, books, speaking engagements) and actually try to make "fastlane" type of returns.

I even discuss this a tiny bit in the sample chapters of The Great Rat-Race Escape.

Here's a question for bystanders...

If the stock market lost 50% of its value and stayed there for the next 3 years, would you need to get a job? If yes, you're not financially independent. If you can't spend more than $50 a month at a nice restaurant because of your radical "budget", you're not financially independent.

Funny how the word "financial independence" has lost its meaning...

With this new definition, every 30 year old college graduate that lives with their parents is also financially independent.

Hi MJ, this is my first message on your forum, I really can't wait to read "The Rat Escape" .. I hope you will do the translation in Italian, or I will try to read it in English anyway, because you are the only one who he tells the truth and things as they are. Thank you very much, you have given me so much!

 

[MJ DeMarco]

I have cut my family's grocery bill to zero by eating exclusively at Krispy Kreme three times per day. Great way to hack this deal is by visiting multiple Krispy Kreme locations and also dressing up as a different person each time.

F.I.R.E! Every dollar counts guys!

View attachment 39143

I want off this planet.

Don't let the virus kill you fast, let our food kill you slowly!

About as clown world as Coke and Pepsi sponsoring the Diabetes foundation.

 

[Madame Peccato]

I want off this planet.

Don't let the virus kill you fast, let our food kill you slowly!

About as clown world as Coke and Pepsi sponsoring the Diabetes foundation.

What about when doctors used to sponsor smoking in the 30s-40s? Always check who funded the studies you are reading. It's the same old story. State / big corporations funded studies claiming whatever helps the narrative.

For more context, and a POV on interpreting studies / believing them, read the "In Pratice" section of this article.

Clown emoji.

 

[Raoul Duke]

I see two people who are very unhappy.

:shrug:

 

[Mathuin]

I have to admit that living in one of the most expensive cities of the world, it’s crossed my mind to move to a more remote location and just “enjoy life”. Meaning I wouldn’t have to deal with employees, investors, building a business and all the pain that comes with that. But then every time I think it through, it doesn’t add up.
I’m 10 min from downtown with restaurants, humans, life and yet I’m also next to mountains and water. It’s beautiful and sunny, my friends are all here and building a business is a lot of fun (when it freaking works! It can be very frustrating too, I’m sure we all know the feeling). Without challenges, I feel my mind would atrophy. I’d be bored and want to get back “into the game”. In the end, cashing out and moving out feels no different than giving up. Suddenly, it’s depressing to think about it.
@MTF wrote a post about living the hard way. It’s applicable here too.

I went for a bike ride, climbed to the 1st lookout of Cypress mountain and took a photo. All within an hour from leaving my house. Saw lots of people with happy faces along the way. Hard to complain ... pic attached. Thats my dream. I just need to be successful enough to keep it, grow it and help my kid learn the way.

That looks awesome! A similar thing to what you are talking about happened to John Somnez from Bulldog Mindset. He retired at 33 due to his real estate investments and moved to hawaii and he hated it.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-cGLisPbXA

 

[Kak]

There are tools (like here) that will run simulations on every single possible outcome depending on when you put your money in last 100+ years. Taking out 40k a year ADJUSTED for inflation for 40 years would result in ZERO historical failures.

Until there is. Have you ever looked at a graph of hyperinflation? There’s no constant to play the math off of.

I‘d easily bet the people with the average conservative, lazy, Edward Jones portfolio are going to lose HARD to inflation over the next 40 years.

Only the intelligent and creative are going to gain.

 

[Mathuin]

 

[e_fastlane]

I think the question is where is the financially free line to each person? Remember it's all relative to the mindset of the person. I think I am financially free, however I can't afford a yacht or a private jet. Someone who is making $100k a year, they would look at me and say that I'm financially free. But someone with $25M probably would not.

We talk about someone sacrificing by not going to restaurants. A billionaire would talk about me sacrificing by not flying private. I think I'm ok at my current net worth level. Someone wealthier may not, they may think I'm taking my foot off the pedal too early.

I think it's all relative, but I also agree that there is a poverty point where I roll my eyes when someone tells me they are financially free. It could be someone living in a tiny home in the middle of nowhere for me, for someone else it could be someone living in a free and clear house, but has only $2k coming in a month to live.

Like MJ, I don't look at restaurant prices. I can buy many things without thinking about it. But I can't get a new Mclaren without really thinking about it.

Sounds like we are seeing eye to eye on this, but in stark opposition to most on here.

 

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[Antifragile]

@WJK

there is a book called “Mindset” and it is exactly about that. Fixed mindset is “I’m just not good at _____”, these are the people you describe. Growth mindset is “I presently struggle with ____ and I will get good at it eventually”.

 

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