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O/T: HEALTH The Anatomy Of Sleep

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Roli

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I watched a video on youtube the other day about the science of sleep. The main takeaway was that not enough can affect decision making.

I was all prepared to reject the ideas in the video; however it said that only 5% of the human population have a gene that means they are fine on 6 hours or less. As somebody who has trained myself over the last 2 and a half years to survive on around 5 hours a night, I suddenly realised that the likelihood that I am one of these people is slim.

Moreover, before the results of my actions; how would I know my decisions are bad?

It's kind of like competence; you need a certain amount to realise one's own incompetence...

Anyways, I have been trying to get more sleep, last night I went to bed at 8:45, it is now 04:22 and I have been up for around an hour and a half...

I think I do need to stick with this; as every Wednesday I tend to have a bit of a crash; and feel like writing off the day shortly after lunchtime, even Modafinil doesn't help.

Interested to know what others think...
 

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Dark Water

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I think quality sleep is more important than the amount of sleep. I also think the earlier to bed you go, the less sleep you need. 9-3 is much easier than 12-6.

If you can black out your room, cut out all outside noises, and do something relaxing before bed, all the better. Couple that with a good morning routine and a successful day, you shouldn't need too much sleep. I feel like during bouts of laziness one actually requires more sleep. But when you have that focus, you can barely wait to wake up and you do so on your own hours before your alarm clock sounds.
 

Roli

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I think quality sleep is more important than the amount of sleep. I also think the earlier to bed you go, the less sleep you need. 9-3 is much easier than 12-6.

If you can black out your room, cut out all outside noises, and do something relaxing before bed, all the better. Couple that with a good morning routine and a successful day, you shouldn't need too much sleep. I feel like during bouts of laziness one actually requires more sleep. But when you have that focus, you can barely wait to wake up and you do so on your own hours before your alarm clock sounds.

Very good points; especially your observation about 903 instead of 12-6. Also about the blackout, even a little bit of ambient light leaking into my bedroom drives me nuts.

Hopefully I'm down by around 9 again tonight...
 

GoodShakers

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I'm going to go get a polysomnogram (sleep study) before the end of the year. I generally don't sleep all that well. If there's one thing worth optimizing, it's sleep. Think about it...

If you currently spend 8 hours in bed, but only 6.5 sleeping, the other 1.5 just fidgeting and waiting to fall asleep (unfortunately, tends to be my case), you're wasting a bunch of time. Cut that down to 15 minutes in bed pre-sleep and you have another ~1.6 FULL DAYS of free time per month. Over 60 years, that's something like 3 years of extra time. Even in a less drastic situation, cutting down from 7.5 hours to 7 hours in bed (without sacrificing quality of sleep) would net you over a year of free time over 60 years. Plus if you're sleeping better, you'll have the added benefit of better decision-making skills, lower risk of health issues, etc...

@Dark Water is right, it's more about optimizing sleep cycles and REM than it is about net time asleep.

Also, regarding training yourself to sleep on 5 hours a night, there are several studies that essentially prove your body won't adapt.

The National Institute of Health has some good reading: Brain Basics: Understanding Sleep | National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke
 

SwissTuxedo

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Have you considered getting 5 hours of sleep and then taking a 1 to 2-hour nap later in the day?

Modafinil has helped me tremendously with being productive even when running on low sleep but if there is one thing I can recommend that has definitely impacted the quality of my sleep, it's magnesium.

Since supplementing with magnesium, I've noticed a dramatic increase in the quality of my sleep.

I feel more refreshed when I wake up and my mood is much better.
 

GoodShakers

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...if there is one thing I can recommend that has definitely impacted the quality of my sleep, it's magnesium.

Since supplementing with magnesium, I've noticed a dramatic increase in the quality of my sleep.

I feel more refreshed when I wake up and my mood is much better.

Someone told me yesterday that this totally fixed their sleep issues. I've also read that it's extremely important for genomic stability and repair. Going to try this.
 

Roli

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Have you considered getting 5 hours of sleep and then taking a 1 to 2-hour nap later in the day?

Modafinil has helped me tremendously with being productive even when running on low sleep but if there is one thing I can recommend that has definitely impacted the quality of my sleep, it's magnesium.

Since supplementing with magnesium, I've noticed a dramatic increase in the quality of my sleep.

I feel more refreshed when I wake up and my mood is much better.

I did exactly that today! A 1.5 hour nap (woken up by Amazon customer services) and then 1.5 hours gym and then back to work for the last few hours of the day.

How do you use magnesium, does it come in a bottle or pill? I've never even heard of it as a supplement; do you have a particularly good source, or is it pretty easy to get hold of the good stuff?
 

Roli

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I'm going to go get a polysomnogram (sleep study) before the end of the year. I generally don't sleep all that well. If there's one thing worth optimizing, it's sleep. Think about it...

If you currently spend 8 hours in bed, but only 6.5 sleeping, the other 1.5 just fidgeting and waiting to fall asleep (unfortunately, tends to be my case), you're wasting a bunch of time. Cut that down to 15 minutes in bed pre-sleep and you have another ~1.6 FULL DAYS of free time per month. Over 60 years, that's something like 3 years of extra time. Even in a less drastic situation, cutting down from 7.5 hours to 7 hours in bed (without sacrificing quality of sleep) would net you over a year of free time over 60 years. Plus if you're sleeping better, you'll have the added benefit of better decision-making skills, lower risk of health issues, etc...

@Dark Water is right, it's more about optimizing sleep cycles and REM than it is about net time asleep.

Also, regarding training yourself to sleep on 5 hours a night, there are several studies that essentially prove your body won't adapt.

The National Institute of Health has some good reading: Brain Basics: Understanding Sleep | National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke

Very interesting; thanks for the link.
 

Jakeeck

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The absolute best way to sleep (which isn't possible for most people due to life's obligations) is to go to bed at a time where you can naturally wake up with the sunrise circadian rhythm style.

No alarm. No stress. Just sleep until fully recharged and then keep that sleep schedule.

For me, I go to sleep at 11pm and wake up naturally at 7:15ish.

I was sleeping from 10pm to 5am for a month. It was tough to get out of bed, and I found myself quite useless in the first couple hours of the day. I believe it's because it was still dark when waking.

Also, you will need more sleep if you exercise.
 

lewj24

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Also, you will need more sleep if you exercise.

Arnold Schwarzenegger lifted weights 4 hours a day and only slept 6 hours at night.
 

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GuitarManDan

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I had sleep issues for a few months and getting black out curtains was the absolute biggest game changer for me. Other things didn't work as well for me (melatonin supplements, meditation before sleep, breathing exercises).

I also did way too research into this too back when I was having issues. It also helped me to only lay down when I was actually tired. If I had a bad night before, it seemed obvious that I should try to go to sleep earlier but that would be counterproductive as I'd just lay awake for hours.

Best of luck!
 

Roli

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You lift 4 hours everyday and you'll be a freak of nature too.

I think the point is, to lift 4 hours each and every day, you have to be on steroids. The normal human body cannot recover in time to do such a punishing routine. However steroids help you recover to complete normality in record time, allowing you to lift as if you had been resting for days.
 

lewj24

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What are your results following this program ? Pics would be good
 

lewj24

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I think the point is, to lift 4 hours each and every day, you have to be on steroids. The normal human body cannot recover in time to do such a punishing routine. However steroids help you recover to complete normality in record time, allowing you to lift as if you had been resting for days.
Of course steroids help. But if you HAVE to be on roids to lift for 4 hours then whats the time threshold for natural lifting? 2 hours? When does "natural lifting" time transition into "he has to be on steroids" time? After 3 hours? 2? I would argue that pro athletes and navy seals workout more than you could imagine without being on the juice.
 

SwissTuxedo

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# 1 - Always sleep in a pitch black room. The darker the room, the better the quality of your sleep. Why ? Because when you are in a pitch black room your brain starts to produce melatonin - the hormone responsible for putting you to sleep.
Complete darkness. You shouldn't be able to see anything. Darker room = more melatonin produced by brain = better sleep.

#2 - Have a caffeine curfew . This is a no-brainer. Stop drinking coffee at around 2 pm at the lastest if you plan on being in bed by 10pm.

#3- Invest in a high-quality mattress. This is a big one. You spend about 1/3 of your life sleeping. Invest in a quality mattress. Do you ever wake up in the morning with back pain ? Lower back pain? Stiffness ? Back Aches? Could be your mattress.... High-quality mattress = high quality sleep.

#4 - Take Magnesium before going to bed. TRUST ME ON THIS. More than half the population is deficient in magnesium, the food we eat doesent have enough of it, and drinking coffee and alcohol both deplete magnesium levels. I have so many supplements in my home that I could probably open a Pharmacy. I have tried Ambien , melatonin, ashwagandha, l-theanine, passionflower, valerian... you name it. NOTHING has helped me out like magnesium ( although valerian is a pretty effective )
It's made me a calmer person, I sleep better on it, I don't get stressed out and anxious. Magnesium is amazing.

There are 3 different ways to take it.

1- Magnesium Spray, You can get magnesium spray on Amazon. Its pretty cheap and you spray it under your feet, armpits and whatever area you want. You will feel a tingling sensation - meaning that your body is absorbing the magnesium. If you workout consistently, spraying magnesium to a specific muscle will speed up recovery as well.

2- Magnesium as a supplement. There are many different types of magnesium out there, just go on amazon and start looking. ZMA, Chelated magnesium...

3- Magnesium Flakes. This is probably the most effective way to take magnesium. Get magnesium flakes and put them in a bath that you take about an hour before going to bed. This is the most effective way to absorb magnesium. Magnesium bath = sleep like a baby.


#5 - Eat a high fat & Protein snack about 30 minutes before going to sleep. Here's why; the goal is to keep your blood glucose levels stable the whole time that you are sleeping. If your blood sugar drops too low, you will most likely wake up in the middle of the night and have no idea why. By eating a high fat & protein snack ( Almond butter for example) you prevent that from happening. The fat keeps you full and stabilizes your blood sugar. Avoid eating carbs before bed because that will cause a spike in your blood sugar and eventually it will come crashing down and you will wake up.
Sugar is the worst thing to put in your body before bed.

Anyways,Not completely sure where I'm going with this post but yeah sleep is important... so let's make sure we all get some high quality sleep !
 

lowtek

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Of course steroids help. But if you HAVE to be on roids to lift for 4 hours then whats the time threshold for natural lifting? 2 hours? When does "natural lifting" time transition into "he has to be on steroids" time? After 3 hours? 2? I would argue that pro athletes and navy seals workout more than you could imagine without being on the juice.

The issue is the law of diminishing returns for natural athletes, not that they can't necessarily lift for 4 hours at a time. If you don't have a job, and are a student at university (i.e. 18 - 21 years old), then lifting 4 hours a day is probably feasible.

As a natural lifter, you will not gain an additional ounce of muscle from that second, third, and fourth hour, over the course of a year of continuous lifting. What you will gain is an appreciable probability of injury and joint inflammation that will reduce overall quality of life.

There is a good reason that, if you look over the history of body building, the training styles changed drastically with the widespread availability of exogenous testosterone. Guys went from lifting an hour, to an hour and a half, 3 times a week (full body) to lifting 4 hours a day 4 to 5 days a week on a bro split. The gear helps with recovery as well as increasing the window for muscle protein synthesis from a workout session.

But... back on topic - I don't do well on less than 7 hours of sleep. This only gets worse as I get older. At 35 I need more sleep than I did at 25. I can't wait for 45 =/
 

JWelch

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I've been a "novice" bodybuilder for 12 years. I've trained for 4 hours, I've trained for 45 minutes, I've slept 10 hours/day I've slept 5 hours/day. The biggest thing that gave me the feeling that I was rested and alert and focused was eating very clean. No sugar with the exception of what I got from fruit. Fairly low carbs overall and higher in fat like avocado, coconut oil and flax seed. Moderate to high in protein (.75-1 gram per pound of lean body mass per day) If I weighed 240 lbs I eat 200-240 grams of protein. (as a side note I'm 6'5"). Even when I trained for four hours and slept 6 my body still recovered.

Doing this consistently I've found myself NATURALLY sleeping 6-7 hours and often waking up before my alarm was even going off. I can't explain why the change exactly but when you're feeding your body the highest quality nutrient dense food your brain and body run like a finely tuned machine. At that point falling asleep and being well rested on 6 hours is not an issue.
 

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Roli

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Last night asleep by 8:45 after full day, awake by 3:30 up by 3:42
 

CommonCents

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talk about valuing sleep, the mypillow factory is not far from me, . its insane genius or pure dumb luck to sell a pillow full of shredded foam for 80 bucks. evidently the founder was a cocaine dealer who straightened his life out. i think he must have been high when he first priced his pillows ;) more power to him!

talk about selling "value" to consumers and not 2 bucks worth of fabric and foam chunks.
 

Omerroz

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I also read about it,
There are several types of sleep and most people sleep 8 hours in a row
According to what I read there are people who can sleep a total of 4 hours a day and enjoy 20 hours of activity during the day
I tried to do it and it is not easy because you have to change your daily routine and sleep even in the middle of the day when it is problematic when you are not the boss in the business
 

Sean Kaye

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I had a sleep study done in 2013 to measure the level of sleep apnea I had.

My breathing was stopping or being interrupted 72 times an hour - one time during the study I stopped breathing for 55 seconds.

During the entire 8 hours, I did not enter the deeper levels of REM sleep once.

My sleep apnea is in large part caused by a misshaped uvula - it's hereditary, my dad had it and so does my son.

I have been using CPAP for 4 years and have a ton of data on my sleep.

The average person has an AHI (Apnea Hypopnea Index) of 5.0 - 10.0 - which means you have interrupted breathing 5 to 10 times an hour - if your AHI is above 15 you should be on CPAP for sure.

My AHI is now 1.0 or less most nights. I sleep on average 7.3 hours a night across the four years of data.

Getting that one issue sorted out was life changing - I'm now no longer tired at all, my focus is exceptional and I don't have naps or anything. It was like a fog cleared immediately.

If you have any trouble sleeping at all, I would HIGHLY recommend a sleep survey.
 

SvvyDO

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I used to obsess about this too, but now I truly believe that I was just sleep depriving myself during the few years I've experimented with it. I slept 5-6 hours per day.

But then I stopped it and tried it again when I was pretty deep into power-lifting and my body did NOT like it.

For me, I figured that your body naturally knows how much sleep you can get. Everyone's different. I need around 9 hours because I tax my body so much through my training.

Honestly, most of my sleep issues and energy issues were resolved from just staying consistent about my sleep schedule--including my anxiety and depression.

..Also, do you REALLY find any value in staying awake an hour or two longer per day? Do you ACTUALLY utilize those extra hours? Most people that try to cut their sleeping hours usually have their focus wrong. They don't really use those extra hours for productive activities, they only cut their sleep hours just for the sake of cutting their sleep hours..

If your swamped with things you need to do, then sure, you could possibly think about cutting your sleep. But don't cut your sleep first THEN try to add productive activities to it.. The latter just means you have too much time to think about things that aren't important...
 

Vanderbilt

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to the OP, if you still struggle, it would be pretty important to know how long do you sleep on your Vacation outside of your home with out any schedules.

Article from a famous photgrapher:

"For a long time – I’m talking YEARS – I was a person who certainly wasn’t afraid of espousing that I didn’t need a lot of sleep. I probably went about 10 years on about 5-6 hours of sleep per night. I felt like it was genetic and I had a ton of energy (which is true), but one holiday season a couple years ago, as an experiment, I headed to Hawaii and decided to have ZERO schedule on vacation. What would it be like to literally let my body sleep as long as it wanted. Knowing that I’m not a huge sleep lover, I wasn’t afraid of the negative side of oversleeping…I was just going to let this one play out. I even used earplugs as an aid, borrowed from lots of airplane experience. The result? Holy cow. I slept 14 hours a day for 6 nights in succession. And it wasn’t the sleep that actually felt “good”. It was the in between times. I felt smarter. Happier. More creative. etc etc. You get it. In short, I felt completely different then I had the previous 6-8 weeks I was working 20 hours a day. Since that holiday season, I’ve started tracking my sleep and aim to say in bed for 8 hours a day. Right now some of you are saying “WTF?! Not possible. I’ve got X or Y or couldn’t do this because ABC [list all your reasons].” Fine. I get it. But I’m just telling you what I’ve been up to for the last 18 months, what the science says, and what I’ve been able to accomplish through some intentional effort. I can’t say that I’m perfect – there are still lots of nights I don’t get 5 hours of sleep, let alone 8 hours bed, but I gotta confess that getting more sleep has dramatically helped me."
 
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