Stay In School It's Not A Waste Of Time!

[ZF Lee]

Worried that it would be another 'hate college' thread, but some points here are actually quite good.

That's great, hope it applies to religion as well.

A lot of parents want their children to be thinkers, except when it comes to religion.

Nothing wrong with following a particular religion, but I believe you should do so ONLY after you have thoroughly analyzed all worldly theologies and their origins (as well as science, history and pre-history) and then decide. Truth is most parents don't allow their children to do so-- it's X religion because, well, that's what I was taught and we just happen to be living in an area where it's quite common!

Whut? Against Forum rules? Naw...

UNSCRIPTED core values.

I realised that as well.

No religion ever grows into a vacuum. People of different races have always worked and fought with each other, so it is inevitable that they may also share the same problems, concerns and even some solutions.

In fact, if you try to read any holy text with EMPATHY, working to make sense of what pain drove him/her to do this, or whether you can assume he/she really were a criminal, what you read somehow changes.

I was listening to a sermon by a Bible expert in the Jewish culture, and let's say that if you don't know how the Jews worshipped, welcomed guests, dealt with civil conflicts, lived, 90% of the NT will look like a shitshow.

I could go on about how the Holy Writ were done in the context of helping folks to thrive in warring eras, especially for Islam...but let's not go there....

 

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[PizzaOnTheRoof]

Unpopular opinion coming in 3...2...

So the zeitgeist at the moment is that school is a waste of time, at least three times a week we see young people coming on here and they're all excited after reading Unscripted or The Millionaire Fastlane and they're like that's it, F*ck it, I quit! Then they come on here looking for support for their decision, well here's why they very rarely, if ever, get that support from me.

School IS important.

Why?

Because the amount of people who do not have the ability to engage in reasoned thinking is growing at an exponential rate, we are living in a post truth era whereby the official narrative and experts are dismissed not because of what they are saying, but because of who they are.

Don't get me wrong, officials lie, experts are wrong, but THAT'S NOT THE POINT!

The point is quite simply this; today on planet earth, in our glorious system of Sol, there are millions, yes freaking millions! of people who believe that the earth is flat. There are millions of people that believe that vaccines are a government plot to give you autism. There are millions of people who believe we never went to the moon.

Pause. Breathe.

The point is not that these people believe these things, it is that they do not have the intellectual wherewithal to question their own beliefs.

So why is this a problem?

Well now we have got to a head where the freaking President of the United Freaking States of America believes that climate change is fake science and that noise causes cancer. He backs these statements up with the reassuring words, I know science.

AND PEOPLE BELIEVE HIM!!!!!!!

*Facepalm*

Another pause.

This is not a political post, I don't care what you think about Trump or any of the issues mentioned thus far.

What I do care about, is the general inability of the mass populace to come to their own informed decisions via an Occam's inspired route paved with reason, logic and critical thinking... Because I'm telling you man, we are reaching a watershed moment whereby every opinion no matter how stupid is given equal footing with sensible ideas.

If I say the earth is an orange, or the sun is a ball of ice, I don't need evidence, I just need a Youtube channel and a large moronic following who say shit like; "oh yeah, we are being lied to, you're so right dude, I see it now, the sun's a freaking ball of ice. F*cking NASA."

I'm serious, the idiots are taking over the asylum. T. S. Elliot tried to warn us;

this is the way the world ends
this is the way the world ends
this is the way the world ends
not with a bang, with a whimper.

Not the bang of thermonuclear warheads, with the whimper of stupidity . . .

How long before these idiots halt and eventually reverse scientific progress?

We are already seeing diseases that we were on the verge of eradicating, returning with a vengeance because of stupidity and superstition, what next; how long till we uninvent the wheel?

So back to school.

Literally.

Sure school probably won't teach you how to be a whizz hot business person, it won't make you rich by going to school. Hell that marketing degree probably won't even get you a half decent marketing job, let alone set you up to run your own company.

What it will do is (hopefully) give you a blueprint for reasoned thinking, which in turn will help you come to your own conclusions as to whether the earth is round, climate change exists, or chemtrails are real.

Maybe school isn't enough, although they are all different and are located all over the globe, so using the word school is probably woefully inadequate when trying to cover the varying spectrum of institutions that carry that particular moniker. However it's all we've got...

Hey, do what you want, however my child is being taught the importance of education, because quite frankly I don't want her to grow up a simpering idiot who believes any old pseudo science bs being spouted by some dreadlock-wearing-skunk-smoking waster who believes they have uncovered an intricate chemtrail-flouride-Rothchilds inspired conspiracy on Google.

My child will be armed with the basic cognitive abilities that will allow her to question her own beliefs in such a way that will enable her to come up with the right answers and also, crucially, the right questions.

She will understand what evidence is and how to view and analyse it. She may not turn out to do a STEM subject in University, she may not even go, however she will be somebody who understands that reason and logic can create informed thinking.

...and that dear friends, is what I wish for the world.

So yeah, don't be an idiot, stay in school kids.

Rant over.

Most of the population should probably go to school.....but the entire reason we're on this forum is that we don't want to be like most of the population. We're kowingly taking a different path.

My sister is an anti-vaxer, yet she's in school working on a B.S. degree. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Maybe school isn't the problem/solution?

 

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[DaDream]

Unpopular opinion coming in 3...2...

So the zeitgeist at the moment is that school is a waste of time, at least three times a week we see young people coming on here and they're all excited after reading Unscripted or The Millionaire Fastlane and they're like that's it, F*ck it, I quit! Then they come on here looking for support for their decision, well here's why they very rarely, if ever, get that support from me.

School IS important.

Why?

Because the amount of people who do not have the ability to engage in reasoned thinking is growing at an exponential rate, we are living in a post truth era whereby the official narrative and experts are dismissed not because of what they are saying, but because of who they are.

Don't get me wrong, officials lie, experts are wrong, but THAT'S NOT THE POINT!

The point is quite simply this; today on planet earth, in our glorious system of Sol, there are millions, yes freaking millions! of people who believe that the earth is flat. There are millions of people that believe that vaccines are a government plot to give you autism. There are millions of people who believe we never went to the moon.

Pause. Breathe.

The point is not that these people believe these things, it is that they do not have the intellectual wherewithal to question their own beliefs.

So why is this a problem?

Well now we have got to a head where the freaking President of the United Freaking States of America believes that climate change is fake science and that noise causes cancer. He backs these statements up with the reassuring words, I know science.

AND PEOPLE BELIEVE HIM!!!!!!!

*Facepalm*

Another pause.

This is not a political post, I don't care what you think about Trump or any of the issues mentioned thus far.

What I do care about, is the general inability of the mass populace to come to their own informed decisions via an Occam's inspired route paved with reason, logic and critical thinking... Because I'm telling you man, we are reaching a watershed moment whereby every opinion no matter how stupid is given equal footing with sensible ideas.

If I say the earth is an orange, or the sun is a ball of ice, I don't need evidence, I just need a Youtube channel and a large moronic following who say shit like; "oh yeah, we are being lied to, you're so right dude, I see it now, the sun's a freaking ball of ice. F*cking NASA."

I'm serious, the idiots are taking over the asylum. T. S. Elliot tried to warn us;

this is the way the world ends
this is the way the world ends
this is the way the world ends
not with a bang, with a whimper.

Not the bang of thermonuclear warheads, with the whimper of stupidity . . .

How long before these idiots halt and eventually reverse scientific progress?

We are already seeing diseases that we were on the verge of eradicating, returning with a vengeance because of stupidity and superstition, what next; how long till we uninvent the wheel?

So back to school.

Literally.

Sure school probably won't teach you how to be a whizz hot business person, it won't make you rich by going to school. Hell that marketing degree probably won't even get you a half decent marketing job, let alone set you up to run your own company.

What it will do is (hopefully) give you a blueprint for reasoned thinking, which in turn will help you come to your own conclusions as to whether the earth is round, climate change exists, or chemtrails are real.

Maybe school isn't enough, although they are all different and are located all over the globe, so using the word school is probably woefully inadequate when trying to cover the varying spectrum of institutions that carry that particular moniker. However it's all we've got...

Hey, do what you want, however my child is being taught the importance of education, because quite frankly I don't want her to grow up a simpering idiot who believes any old pseudo science bs being spouted by some dreadlock-wearing-skunk-smoking waster who believes they have uncovered an intricate chemtrail-flouride-Rothchilds inspired conspiracy on Google.

My child will be armed with the basic cognitive abilities that will allow her to question her own beliefs in such a way that will enable her to come up with the right answers and also, crucially, the right questions.

She will understand what evidence is and how to view and analyse it. She may not turn out to do a STEM subject in University, she may not even go, however she will be somebody who understands that reason and logic can create informed thinking.

...and that dear friends, is what I wish for the world.

So yeah, don't be an idiot, stay in school kids.

Rant over.

I have mixed feelings on some of these topics.

Conspiracies: I don't know what to believe anymore. There is tons of contradicting information out there. Knowing truth requires wisdom.

School: I did engineering. I met some great people who influenced my life greatly. I could probably have done the same if I had not chosen to go to the university and would have saved me 30k+ worth of student loans and six years. A lot of what I learned in school quickly became irrelevant in my life. I do ecommerce these days... Because testing aircraft applications was slowly killing me.

There is a lot of courses out there which are free. From MIT, Harvard, Georgia Tech, Standford. Anyone willing to get an education can do it without having to go into backbreaking debt. Is all free online.

However. The system. The school system was created and made to benefit the big corporations that need wage slaves to profit from. Some of those huge corporations are government contractors which receive money out of thin air. Our blood. Sweat and tears is what gives fiat currencies any value. I'm a slave of the system and I know it.

PAID education is a scam that could be very rewarding to those who can climb the corporate ladder. To have a chance to climb the ladder you need that piece of paper.

 

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[Mattie]

So yeah, don't be an idiot, stay in school kids.

This is just my opinion along with Dave Ramsey. It's not so much about getting and education. But and education is crushing the masculine and feminine financially with low-paying jobs. I found out my student loan is nothing compared to some of these people. But other cultures provide education differently that is not getting people in trouble so severely.

I saved a lot of money finding the Fast Lane Forum and I am glad I didn't keep taking student loans out like some other people. I went to Harvard, Yale, Stanford online free on You Tube. May not have the expensive piece of paper to go with it, but I feel in the future if someone needs a piece of paper, they can pay for me to go back and get the piece of paper. Why should it come out of my pocket. If they want to hire me, they can pay for it.

This happen with my Nurse Aide Certificate. I believe otherwise if there isn't something in it for both sides, there's not point in getting yourself into large debt for the sake of impressing people.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMk7CKwJ8OM


This is the kind of stuff people are getting into. I thought I had debt, and I have nothing compared to some people. You're basically becoming a slave to debt these days with Student Loans.

And they use some of this money for entertainment, shopping, and not all for school. I watched people what they do going to school. Student Refunds, they take out all this extra money for fun and say, "I'll pay it back later."

 

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[jackwilder94]

Ok, fair enough rant, while i agree on 1-2 points, i’ll prove that you didn’t prove shit.

First, ask yourself why people doubt vaccines, moon landing , and a shit ton of other things ? I’ll open your eyes. Because the US government is by far the BIGGEST liar, the US empire has been telling lies and creating false flags, bombing countries( libya, egypt, syria, irak and many others ) bombing their own citizens ( 9/11 ), ( pizzagate ) , ( funding and protecting ISIS ) , + a shit ton of other UGLY and INHUMAN things the US government did since it existed, that will make any SANE person doubt whether they really landed on the moon or if vaccines are really that safe( NO conspiracy theories here, plain TRUTH). You got to be with your eyes closed and living under a rock, NOT seeing all this.

Why people start doubting a lot of science and stuff ? Because the evil government we all know(backed by the highest elite), which overthrows any government it doesn’t agree with (countries who leave the petrodollar), also BACKS UP science, thus creating confusion what is actually real and what is not. If you still trust your own government after all the bullshit it has done in the world, in africa, in middle east, after all its done with american citizens themselves, if you STILL trust anything these F*ckers say, then you, my friend, are brainwashed. And school system is also backed up by government. So no, F*ck your school and F*ck your government ran institutions, i’d rather not be brainwashed by these F*ckers. In fact, in 2019, if you're informed about whats going on ( not tv ), you just can't deny most conspiracy theories, because, guess what, most turned out true.

 

[dknise]

It depends who is going to be affected by this questioning: if only yourself then it must be a personal decision, therefore I can agree. If others are affected, a minimal level of certified knowledge in the subject must be required.

The example with my back is Dalio's suggestion on triangulation. You should find multiple, believable people to get their opinion on an important matter, then decide who is right. If you give up full control of your life to the first authority, you may not get the most desirable outcomes in life.

 

[Jack Hammer]

The sun's a ball of ice and up is down.

Oh and red is blue. There I said it.

Unlike your facetious examples, my position is the most reasonable one to take. Let me demonstrate. If climate change were not a scam, here's the sort of thing we would hear:

Mankind's carbon and methane emissions are causing the climate to warm more than it would otherwise. Here are the positive effects and here are the negative effects. We believe the negative effects will outweigh the positive effects. We should mitigate these effects in two ways: lowering emissions and bolstering infrastructure to cope with the effects. We can lower emissions by expanding nuclear power and natural gas through fracking.

If it were a scam, we would hear things like this:

Mankind's carbon and methane emissions are destroying the planet and threatening our species' very existence. The solution is to confiscate vast amounts of wealth and freedom from the citizenry and hand it over to a governing elite. We must get rid of all non-renewable energy sources like nuclear power and natural gas and subsidize solar panels and windmills. We have X number of years to act before it's too late (nevermind all the other deadlines we've set that have passed. We're really sure we got the math right on this one). The debate's over- 97% of scientists agree with us. We know because we looked at a bunch of climate science paper abstracts, took the tiny percentage that declared a position on the issue, attributed those views to the authors, and it came out to 97%. That's how real science is done. Anyway, if you disagree with any of this, you're a climate denier on par with Holocaust deniers, you hate science, and you shut be silenced and thrown into prison, planet traitor.

Which do you think we hear more of- the former or the latter? I can and do buy the former, but even that's enough to get me labeled a denier. Unfortunately, a legitimate scientific inquiry attracted power-hungry parasites who saw a great opportunity to further their agenda and proceeded to corrupt the field. They've turned it into cargo-cult science.

 

[Valhalla]

You’re talking about people with an IQ of 80.

Walmart shoppers.

Do you have an IQ of 80? I hope not.

Don’t go back to school. It’s a step up for the Walmart shoppers. Not for us. School is a scam and a factory for indoctrination. Run away from it as fast as you can.

My local school invited me to speak and I laughed and said “of course”. I got to tell about 200 kids that school was a waste. If they want an awesome life they should not go to college and instead start a business and instead of reading fiction novels or school books they should read business books. It was the greatest thing. I’m surprised I wasn’t interrupted and told to leave.

I had asked the students what they wanted to do and someone mentioned opening a bakery and I asked them what they needed to do in order to make that happen and they said “go to school”... really? Go to school?

I think you did those kids a disservice. You just hammered another indoctrination into them, saying think like me, not like them. How about encouraging them to think for themselves? Instead you more or less ridiculed them. It's embarrassing.

 

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[socaldude]

The interesting thing is that beliefs are binary. They are either right or wrong.

It doesn't matter how stupid the belief is or how much critical thinking is behind it, it can still be wrong.

Im not worried about people believing obviously stupid stuff because they're stupid.

The scary thing about beliefs are those backed by supposed "reason" and "logic".

Think about what caused the last two world wars. Think about how dictators come to power.

Our education system is suffering from this dilemma. We mix a good thing "education" with other variables that people don't pay attention to. People go "Education is always a good thing"!. Umm no, not if you mix it in with colleges that are only interested in building a bigger school, rankings, college football, raising tuition and building more useless buildings. Not in handing out career valuable diplomas. It has become a giant racket and scam. Not too long ago some parents got caught paying bribes upwards of $500k! just so their kid can get into an elite school.

The most dangerous beliefs are those backed by pathos(emotions), logos(logic) and ethos(ethical). It's the number one cause of disputes.

Tell some people that college is a scam. They get pissed. "No it isn't, this and that,!"

 

[mindsetferg]

Unpopular opinion coming in 3...2...

So the zeitgeist at the moment is that school is a waste of time, at least three times a week we see young people coming on here and they're all excited after reading Unscripted or The Millionaire Fastlane and they're like that's it, F*ck it, I quit! Then they come on here looking for support for their decision, well here's why they very rarely, if ever, get that support from me.

School IS important.

Why?

Because the amount of people who do not have the ability to engage in reasoned thinking is growing at an exponential rate, we are living in a post truth era whereby the official narrative and experts are dismissed not because of what they are saying, but because of who they are.

Don't get me wrong, officials lie, experts are wrong, but THAT'S NOT THE POINT!

The point is quite simply this; today on planet earth, in our glorious system of Sol, there are millions, yes freaking millions! of people who believe that the earth is flat. There are millions of people that believe that vaccines are a government plot to give you autism. There are millions of people who believe we never went to the moon.

Pause. Breathe.

The point is not that these people believe these things, it is that they do not have the intellectual wherewithal to question their own beliefs.

So why is this a problem?

Well now we have got to a head where the freaking President of the United Freaking States of America believes that climate change is fake science and that noise causes cancer. He backs these statements up with the reassuring words, I know science.

AND PEOPLE BELIEVE HIM!!!!!!!

*Facepalm*

Another pause.

This is not a political post, I don't care what you think about Trump or any of the issues mentioned thus far.

What I do care about, is the general inability of the mass populace to come to their own informed decisions via an Occam's inspired route paved with reason, logic and critical thinking... Because I'm telling you man, we are reaching a watershed moment whereby every opinion no matter how stupid is given equal footing with sensible ideas.

If I say the earth is an orange, or the sun is a ball of ice, I don't need evidence, I just need a Youtube channel and a large moronic following who say shit like; "oh yeah, we are being lied to, you're so right dude, I see it now, the sun's a freaking ball of ice. F*cking NASA."

I'm serious, the idiots are taking over the asylum. T. S. Elliot tried to warn us;

this is the way the world ends
this is the way the world ends
this is the way the world ends
not with a bang, with a whimper.

Not the bang of thermonuclear warheads, with the whimper of stupidity . . .

How long before these idiots halt and eventually reverse scientific progress?

We are already seeing diseases that we were on the verge of eradicating, returning with a vengeance because of stupidity and superstition, what next; how long till we uninvent the wheel?

So back to school.

Literally.

Sure school probably won't teach you how to be a whizz hot business person, it won't make you rich by going to school. Hell that marketing degree probably won't even get you a half decent marketing job, let alone set you up to run your own company.

What it will do is (hopefully) give you a blueprint for reasoned thinking, which in turn will help you come to your own conclusions as to whether the earth is round, climate change exists, or chemtrails are real.

Maybe school isn't enough, although they are all different and are located all over the globe, so using the word school is probably woefully inadequate when trying to cover the varying spectrum of institutions that carry that particular moniker. However it's all we've got...

Hey, do what you want, however my child is being taught the importance of education, because quite frankly I don't want her to grow up a simpering idiot who believes any old pseudo science bs being spouted by some dreadlock-wearing-skunk-smoking waster who believes they have uncovered an intricate chemtrail-flouride-Rothchilds inspired conspiracy on Google.

My child will be armed with the basic cognitive abilities that will allow her to question her own beliefs in such a way that will enable her to come up with the right answers and also, crucially, the right questions.

She will understand what evidence is and how to view and analyse it. She may not turn out to do a STEM subject in University, she may not even go, however she will be somebody who understands that reason and logic can create informed thinking.

...and that dear friends, is what I wish for the world.

So yeah, don't be an idiot, stay in school kids.

Rant over.

This is an important topic! I have also been talking about this a lot in my videos of reading and analyzing Napoleon Hill's work "Think and Grow Rich" and "The Law of Success in 16 Lessons." He often mentions how Carnegie, Ford, Edison, and so many other brilliant and successful businessmen and women didn't finish "formal school"... back in the late 1800's/early 1900's!

But less than 5% of people went to college those days! Today over 30% of people have bachelors degrees.

Most people jumped straight into the workforce back then, and some from the age of under 10 and learned great trades from early on! That simply is not the case today. It is possible to start working from age 10, but times have changed, and I think some of those ideas carried over into many "expert" philosophies. However, we also need to realize most "experts" tout not going into college debt, not so much that education is bad.

Fortunately, Napoleon Hill does differentiate between education and formal education, and you can get a regular education that will help you go far without formal school.

Although I believe people can succeed and become wealthy (especially in America) without extraordinary intellect designed and multiple graduate degrees, I think staying in school is a basic need. There can be flaws in the thinking that people who drop out are suddenly going to spring into action and become business masterminds like Ford, Edison, Zuckerberg, or Jobs, or whatever other expert talks about "not needing college."

I'm with you that education is important. Plus every rich successful person is sending their kids to school, and it's not like Jobs and Gates dropped out of a Community College... They were smart enough to get in the most prestigious schools in the world.

Also, there may also be people who want to help the masses: 70%+ of the USA and beyond that have not gone to college - and don't currently have the resources to go. And some people who just want others to sign up for their "online courses." Gotta pick the right people to follow.

Or I could just be trying to justify my expenses... (some unbiased thinking for ya)

 

[TheCj]

Plus every rich successful person is sending their kids to school

I believe that is more to surround their kids with other successful families, going to school and becoming friends/networking with the presidents daughter or a senators son etc.. Will only help later in life.

The only reason's i can see for school is if it will actually lead you to a job you want lawyer, doctor, dentist, engineer etc.. Also opens up relocating world wide. The latter can also be achieved with a lot of money.

The school system was basically created and modeled to create factory workers. Come in at a set time do work at your station, have lunch at set time and leave at a set time. Do what your told, don't make mistakes etc..

The real irony is when I see business owners not influence there kids to start/experiment there own businesses as young adults etc.. Not sure why that is. Do see more super wealthy parents doing this with Kardashians, Will Smith etc.. having there kids trying more self employed ventures.

Of course the other irony is, you can be someone that does not even get accepted for a program to become licensed in something. Yet if you have the money you can open up your own firm, business etc.. and have licensed people work and take direction from you. Koenigsegg founder comes to mind here among others.

Then there is thought of where is the become a millionaire college class? Or retire in your 20's-30's class?

The group think is getting worse because people feel more entitled than ever. A life of everything will be ok if you are mediocre and "you deserve", is making it worse for everyone. This mentality started in schools first i think. School's run by people who have only lived and worked in the school system isn't helping that mentality in my opinion.

The best thing about school is you can see the "system" in full effect.

 

[TheCj]

Just for discussion, not because I think you are right or wrong, I'm just curious to learn more about it...

I hear that argument about education a lot, namely that "school was created and modeled to create factory workers." And it was even popularized by a few gurus and YouTube videos. Yet I don't really know whether it is based on truth or conspiracy theory...

Where exactly is the evidence of that today?

By school i'm talking elementary and high school as well, so going from a farming family or family service business (butcher etc..) to a school preparing people to work in a more rigid factory or office environment. Can google it and get an idea of where it came from.

Another one you might not know about is Henry Ford creating/popularizing the 5 day 40hr work week along similar lines of today's norms being created for other reason's than one would think.

Furthermore, if school was designed for factories (or still is designed for factories), why is there such a variety of degrees?

The variety of degree's is for the school to make revenue not provide education that will lead to job's. There are school's with star trek or star wars courses I kid you not..

 

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[mindsetferg]

By school i'm talking elementary and high school, so going from a farming family or family service business (butcher etc..) to working in factory or office environment. Can google it and get an idea of where it came from.

Another one you might not know about is Henry Ford creating/popularizing the 5 day 40hr work week along similar lines of today's norms being created for other reason's than one would think.



The variety of degree's is for the school to make revenue not provide education that will lead to job's. There are school's with star trek or star wars courses I kid you not..

I took a circus class in college. (Although I will admit it was a wonderful experience)

 

[Xeon]

Spoiler: Warning- Religious Content Against Forum Rules

That's great, hope it applies to religion as well. A lot of parents want their children to be thinkers, except when it comes to religion. Nothing wrong with following a particular religion, but I believe you should do so ONLY after you have thoroughly analyzed all worldly theologies and their origins (as well as science, history and pre-history) and then decide. Truth is most parents don't allow their children to do so-- it's X religion because, well, that's what I was taught and we just happen to be living in an area where it's quite common!

Spoiler

Religious niche seems to be a great idea. Haven't really heard of shops selling religious products / items closing down. Few if any. In recessions or poor economical times and people are desperate, I believe sales actually goes up.

 

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[Roli]

Great responses to my little rant, so I will attempt a worthy riposte below.

You’re talking about people with an IQ of 80.

Walmart shoppers.

No I'm not, i'm talking about a much wider scope than that.

My local school invited me to speak and I laughed and said “of course”. I got to tell about 200 kids that school was a waste.

You sir, are part of the problem.

Is there a widespread trend of young adults who are dropping out of high school and college? And now we have this problem? Or is "school" as popular as it ever has been?

I wouldn't know, I don't have access to those figures, however what we do have is a situation where the denigration of school is at an all time high.

IMO, school is NOT the answer, but parenting (as you have demonstrated).

Good point, however due to the structure of school, teachers see kids a lot more than parents do. However you're right, I haven't just left it all up to them.

Im not worried about people believing obviously stupid stuff because they're stupid.

Not so, I can quite publicly say I have believed stupid stuff in the past and I have a relatively high IQ. The belief of erroneous information isn't the problem, it's not understanding how to critically evaluate the info which is the problem.

The most dangerous beliefs are those backed by pathos(emotions), logos(logic) and ethos(ethical). It's the number one cause of disputes.

Example of dangerous logical beliefs please.

Logic is a very small part of life that's blown way out of proportion.

I don't even know where to begin with that statement, apart from to say, you have made my point beautifully.

And, I have an Associates of Science. It hasn't done anything for me. And I mean nothing.

From a business perspective yes, from an intellectual one it most definitely has done something for you (considering you were paying attention that is!).

I've made $0 from my degree.

It's not all about money.

And the problem with conspiracy theories is if one turns out to be true, then that opens the floodgates and every conspiracy theory could be true.

There has never been a conspiracy theory in the history of conspiracy theories that has ever turned out to be true.

...and before you mention Watergate, that wasn't a conspiracy theory before the fact.

My sister is an anti-vaxer, yet she's in school working on a B.S. degree. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Maybe school isn't the problem/solution?

Or perhaps her degree is the problem...

Although I believe people can succeed and become wealthy (especially in America) without extraordinary intellect designed and multiple graduate degrees, I think staying in school is a basic need.

Exactly.

and it's not like Jobs and Gates dropped out of a Community College...

Yup, yet you'll get people quoting this all the time as if it's some kind of blueprint.. go to college - drop out - become the richest man in the world.

Conspiracies: I don't know what to believe anymore. There is tons of contradicting information out there. Knowing truth requires wisdom.

Not wisdom, just an ability to apply critical thinking to a problem. Weighing up likelihoods and trying to take a logical path to a conclusion. Most of all it's about understanding that it is impossible to know everything, and a best logical guess is sometimes all we have.

I learned in school quickly became irrelevant in my life.

Only because you made it that way.

The school system was created and made to benefit the big corporations that need wage slaves to profit from.

No it wasn't, that is just the status quo today. The school system was created because most people couldn't read or write and children were being forced into jobs that they would never escape from because of their lack of education.

The only reason's i can see for school is if it will actually lead you to a job you want lawyer, doctor, dentist, engineer etc..

Nope, the reason is so that you can learn how to learn and think properly. The job bit is a by-product.

The school system was basically created and modeled to create factory workers.

No it wasn't, this is a popular myth and is part of the problem I hint at in my OP.

Then there is thought of where is the become a millionaire college class? Or retire in your 20's-30's class?

Agreed, or even the how to apply critical thinking to everyday problems.

----

OK, I seem to be getting a lot of replies from Americans, and seeing as I am English it is a bit hard to comment specifically on your school system.

However a lot of good points have been made, the main one that school isn't necessarily a way to promote and enhance critical thinking.

All in all, I believe it is part of a bigger malaise brought on by the dawn of the internet. Nowadays people believe that doing the research on Google is equivalent to a four year degree which, unless we're talking about a degree into how to make paper aeroplanes, it is not.

The best point of all, made by quite a few of you, is that schools need to change for the better. I'm down with that, however if we keep denigrating, belittling and mocking them, then there is no hope for them to improve.

 

[Roli]

How do you know what is a waste of time and not a waste of time? Do you have any results? Are you a business owner or an employee? Do you have what you want?

Erm, yes have been, and yes I am at the moment, and yes I do, your point being?

You seem to be attributing a waste of time to whether your education gives you (or in this case me) a business and/or makes me an employee. That is simply missing my point, outside of how much money you make a good education should (hopefully) give you cognitive tools that reach far beyond how much money you might make.

There are plenty of people without an education that are extremely successful, again, that's not my point. I guess you can sum up my point by saying there's a lot of stupid in the world, and it's getting to a point that it's holding us back as a species, an education will go someway to fixing that.

There's no way this garbage comes from his own mind.

That statement speaks more of your own limited mindset than what your friend told you, which by the way I completely agree with.

 

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[Roli]

Stupid ideas have always had equal footing with good ones.

I'm old enough to remember life before the internet-inspired post-truth era we live in today, and I can quite categorically say that stupid ideas before the internet were just laughed at and killed at birth.

However you're right, there's nothing common about sense

 

[Schwarz]

Unpopular opinion coming in 3...2...
The point is quite simply this; today on planet earth, in our glorious system of Sol, there are millions, yes freaking millions! of people who believe that the earth is flat. There are millions of people that believe that vaccines are a government plot to give you autism. There are millions of people who believe we never went to the moon.

About those people having their own ideas and visions regarding the world based on their perceptions, let them be.

In life, there is never a guarantee, there is no certainty. A few years a lot of us would've called the Fastlane a myth. Because with the knowledge we had it could not be perceived as possible.

I always laugh when someone says "There have been scientific studies that have proven it."
There are some facts in this world, but very little.

There are scientific studies for and against everything. How is that possible? Because scientific studies are done by people. And they are just that, studies. They record facts and draw a conclusion from that.

That conclusion is then also based on their biases and their funder's biases.

Take the Nofap movement for example.
I am very much pro-Nofap. It is scientifically proven that almost all of the people with depression who do porn are freed from that depression after quitting for 90 days.

There's also scientific proof against that fact.
And doctors would laugh at you if you brought it up.

For me, it works. That's all I care about. And I share that with other people.

Hell, until a few years ago there was this big thing going on about scientific facts that the world is getting overpopulated and we won't be able to sustain it.
Now there are scientific facts against that.

It just does not F*cking matter. People will be people. There will be those with stupid ideas and those with good ones. But in the end, who the hell are we to judge those ideas?

Dumb concepts and beliefs are just a product of our exploration through the unknown.

Also, School can be useful, yes. But only to learn a vast amount of knowledge (note: knowledge, this is barely experience) about a subject without having to go through all the trouble of finding that knowledge yourself. And to meet people who are interested in the same subjects.

 

[Roli]

You ever talk to your professors lol?

Lolz.

Much to my regret, I never actually went to university, I became disillusioned with education for much the same reasons that prompt people to call it a waste of time. The problem was that I had (an still have) near perfect recall, not only does this make me an annoying person to argue with (I can remember conversations word for word), it meant that I passed exams very easily without much study.

Years later I realised that I should have gone anyway, because the passing exams bit was not the important part, it was the learning and learning how to learn. I am self-taught in the disciplines that interest me, quantum physics and astronomy in particular.

I wish I had some professors to talk to now though...

 

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[G-Man]

Ha, snap! I was right there with you man! What snapped me out of it was when I showed an old roommate a video of a 'truther' exposing the truth. My roomie just laughed, and instead of getting angry I started to question my beliefs, after not too long I realised that I had been suffering from confirmation bias, and had simply missed all the bits of evidence that didn't fit in with the inside job narrative.

A couple of years ago the last niggling doubt was taken away from me when I saw the NY Fire Brigade's video of bdg 7 from the back, and it was clearly about to fall, unlike the front view which we see all the time.

Though I do still leave the possibility 9/11 was criminal negligence, i.e. someone new the attack was coming and ignored it.

Or they simply missed it, who knows?

The point is, both you and I were prepared to question our beliefs, whereas today we live in an era whereby people are not prepared to do that because they believe that everything that is from the official narrative is BS, whether that be government, media, or science, it's all lies regardless of evidence.



I'd go even further and say that conspiracy theory is the religion for the atheist, just like in religion there is a powerful force that has a hidden plan that we can never figure out. Also like religion, there is a lot of doomsday worship, the end is nigh and all that sort of thing.

I wrote an article on it once if you're interested.



Did he quote on this post? I can't find his comment if he did, I was wondering what his contribution would be

Could have sworn it was @lowtek but I don't see it. Maybe it was somewhere else he said it, or maybe he didn't say it at all, and here I am mis-attributing something in a discussion about cognitive bias. Watch your head spin on that one, pal

 

[lowtek]

Could have sworn it was @lowtek but I don't see it. Maybe it was somewhere else he said it, or maybe he didn't say it at all, and here I am mis-attributing something in a discussion about cognitive bias. Watch your head spin on that one, pal

lol I think you put words in my mouth

It's ok, I'll weigh in later.

 

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[TheCj]

Nope, the reason is so that you can learn how to learn and think properly. The job bit is a by-product.

I agree to disagree.

 

[Roli]

Nobody doubts climate change.

"Climate change is fake science, carbon dioxide is the building blocks of life" (sic)

Donald J. Trump 45th President of the United States of America.

I rest my case your honour.

or that evolution applies to humans just as much as any other animal.

It does (or rather did), though I am open to you showing me how it doesn't.

All that said, I do agree with you on your fundamental premise: we do need more critical thinking. The modern university system is not the place to do that, however.

Even in the STEM subjects?

First, ask yourself why people doubt vaccines, moon landing , and a shit ton of other things ? I’ll open your eyes. Because the US government is by far the BIGGEST liar,

That's my point, just because the government has lied before, does not mean that they lie on everything, this is where critical thinking comes in.

Like for instance the moon landings were tracked by thousands of non-US residents around the world, and vaccines have been in use for decades in practically every country on earth and there have been a plethora of studies backed by a multitude of organisations. Leaving the reasoned thinker to come to the conclusion that America did put people on the moon, and vaccines are safe for 99% of people.


I suppose my whole point is, that the prevailing view of school's a waste of time, is dripping down to the secondary (high) schools and thus they just believe that it's all a waste of time and leave with just about enough cognitive ability to keep them alive.

It's a multi-faceted problem basically, and it's not just as simple as schools are crap or parents need to do more

 

[Mattie]

Ok, fair enough rant, while i agree on 1-2 points, i’ll prove that you didn’t prove shit.

First, ask yourself why people doubt vaccines, moon landing , and a shit ton of other things ? I’ll open your eyes. Because the US government is by far the BIGGEST liar, the US empire has been telling lies and creating false flags, bombing countries( libya, egypt, syria, irak and many others ) bombing their own citizens ( 9/11 ), ( pizzagate ) , ( funding and protecting ISIS ) , + a shit ton of other UGLY and INHUMAN things the US government did since it existed, that will make any SANE person doubt whether they really landed on the moon or if vaccines are really that safe( NO conspiracy theories here, plain TRUTH). You got to be with your eyes closed and living under a rock, NOT seeing all this.
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Why people start doubting a lot of science and stuff ? Because the evil government we all know(backed by the highest elite), which overthrows any government it doesn’t agree with (countries who leave the petrodollar), also BACKS UP science, thus creating confusion what is actually real and what is not. If you still trust your own government after all the bullshit it has done in the world, in africa, in middle east, after all its done with american citizens themselves, if you STILL trust anything these F*ckers say, then you, my friend, are brainwashed. And school system is also backed up by government. So no, F*ck your school and F*ck your government ran institutions, i’d rather not be brainwashed by these F*ckers. In fact, in 2019, if you're informed about whats going on ( not tv ), you just can't deny most conspiracy theories, because, guess what, most turned out true.

Every time I hear something like this there is half truths. A lot of anger, resentment, bitterness, hate, and blame.
The trouble about this whole picture is there is always a - and + charge or side to social issues, social problems, belief systems, theories, concepts, and ideas.
You can be brain washed by any social group if you hang around the group long enough on the macro and micro level. You have business, social, and spiritual entrepreneurs with three different agendas in society and culture.

There are Villains and Hero's in every social clash, generation, and ethical and unethical masculine and feminine with or without finances. Power and Greed is in every social class.

For example: I can go hang out in the hood, become a gang member, learn the rules of social group, the way they talk, act, join their lifestyle, be packing with guns, be the Queen of the pack, have some pimps, get high, hustle off stealing, vandalizing, conquering territory, order people around, kill people to boost my ego, paint tear drops and other marks on my body. Justify my mentality, actions, thoughts, emotions, and rule a whole neighborhood with some thug that things he is a bad a$$ and King.

Not my style personally, but just making a point. You can be the boss of a company and treat all your employers like crap.

Human Nature is Complex. And of course every feminine and masculine makes their choice what kind of social groups they hang out in, what belief system they buy into, and they all have a choice how they use their money, power, and whether they're generous or greedy in every social class.

You have hoarders in every social class and social group that drain resources.

I don't watch television and I rarely listen to the news. I don't work for the government. And fortunately, if you had no civil services, you'd have the "Wild West" of murder, thieves, looting, domestic violence, riots, more social issues and social problems then we already do.

Violence is a major issue whether you have money or not. Every person has power and control issues. Even you. No one is exempt.

Through the Centuries History repeats the same mistakes.

Everyone wants to start and external revolution or war with someone else. It's maturity, growth, and wisdom to understand what you can't control and what you can control in society. The Internal Revolution is breaking out of your self-made prison of distorted belief systems, theories, concepts, and not spreading any more distorted views. The war within self is far more dangerous to society. When you are at war with yourself, is when you become the guy who you're trying to describe as the most "Powerful of the Elite" and destroys humanity like "Hitler" perhaps.

He was the brain washing expert and pulled it off. One of the most destructive human beings on the planet and had others who held a similar belief system which was quite distorted.

It happens, but it took the world to stop him from doing anymore damage to society, culture, and humanity.

There is ugliness in the world. There is also beauty. There is a lot of powerful people improving society at the same time. There is always balance.

Let's not lump everyone in the same lump of clay. We're all innovators, creators, inventors, and focusing on the negatives doesn't improve society.

 

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[Avalokite]

Classic example of identifying problems (people can't think critically!) but potentially misidentifying the solution (go to school!)

Is there a widespread trend of young adults who are dropping out of high school and college? And now we have this problem? Or is "school" as popular as it ever has been?

What if school is actually the problem which you cite as the solution?

IMO, school is NOT the answer, but parenting (as you have demonstrated).

school vs parenting...that's the topic here. I am a teacher and a parent. I see the failings of system from within, and yes it is failing to engage students. Yet on a daily basis I try toengage my high school students to think about what they want,how they can achieve this, getting them to question their own beliefs and that of others. I ask them how are they going to be different from the millions? what need to they see out there that they can fill? you would think this would create a great debate and discussion, and with a few kids yes, lots of questions inside and outside the class, yet sadly most of the time it met with a wall of apathy. I see my students for 3 hrs a week. I try best to inspire them to want more from themselves,the value of focused work. yet i have 3 hrs with them. where do they learn and develop their attitudes and habits, where they spend most of their time at home. this is where kids learn their mindset. school can be blamed for lots of failings, I understand that, but it's not the only place the finger of blame should be pointed. going to school, while not perfect, if you are willing to learn,will help set students up with a enough understanding to spring board them into their chosen path. the attitudes learnt else where will give them the incentive to learn.

just my view on schooling .

 

[apacini]

I still think everyone should question everything.

When I was 19, I blew out the L4-L5 disc in my back resulting in half a decade of brutal pain. I ended up getting back surgery, but I didn't choose the first surgeon I met. If I had listened to him, my physician, and physical therapist, I would have a foot long piece of metal drilled into my spine right now. Instead, I went and got three more doctors opinions until I found a neurosurgeon who gave me hope. I went with her. I'm now pain free.

Two years ago I landed in the flats wakeboarding and instantly knew I had res lipped a disc but I didn't know how bad. When I went in, I pretty much told the doctor I had slipped a disc. He disagreed. I asked for an MRI but he was insistent that I didn't need one. I finally got one because I agreed that if I didn't need one, I would have to pay the full bill (like $1500). Sure enough, I had slipped 8 discs in my back. Same doctor then wanted to prescribe me a maximum dose of oxy codone. I told him to shove it, restarted my physical therapy program, and started doing float tanks. My theory was that I had had spinal decompression surgery. I likely compressed it again and at the very least, I could take the pressure off my back for 90 minutes twice a week. Well, 3 months later I was pain free. I went in for a follow up MRI and to all of our utter surprise, I was completely healed.

If I listened to "experts," I would quite literally be a doped up cyborg unable to make eye contact or walk without a cane.

Ray Dalio talks about triangulating opinions with multiple parties. He also did it with doctors who disgreed.

So I would still say, question everything!

It depends who is going to be affected by this questioning: if only yourself then it must be a personal decision, therefore I can agree. If others are affected, a minimal level of certified knowledge in the subject must be required.

 

[dknise]

Hi, I didn't realise you knew me so intimately.
...
Yup I have questioned my belief...
...
But hey you obviously know me, so I must be lying right?
...
Oops wrong again dude... you know me so well so I must have been thinking about it right?
...
Again, wow, you know me so well, do you want to get married? I think we should, it's like you're looking deep into my soul and showing me how I think, cool.
...
Aww, did that annoy you? Is this our first lover's tiff? :-D
...
Seriously, let's make up, again you demonstrate just how well you know me, by pointing out that I've never questioned those mainstream beliefs.
...
Or, possibly I have and found out that the reason they're mainstream, is because they're correct.
...
Oh dear, another person reading the title and not bothering to read the content, I actually state, believe what you want, that's not the problem, it's people simply rejecting evidence based on the fact that it's part of the official narrative man
...
Anyway thanks for your oblique marriage proposal, but whilst I'm flattered, I'm happily 10 years together with my lovely lady.
...
Good luck in your search for love. X

You didn't really say much in your reply besides the sarcastic "you know me so well."

I did two things with my reply that I think got to you:
1) I tried to tone match your original post
2) I used reflection to turn your accusations back around on you

So in essence, I think your response shows you are annoyed by yourself.

it's like you're looking deep into my soul and showing me how I think, cool.

Yup.

 

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[Jack Hammer]

Climate change is a scam.

There, I said it.

 

[Roli]

EDIT: @Roli I'm guessing you're not American? Maybe that's why you've got a higher view of higher education . Also, you have to remember that American politics relies on BS. When the President says he doesn't believe in climate change, it doesn't mean he doesn't believe it. It also doesn't mean his supporters believe he doesn't believe it. It's just BS that you spit to make a larger point. I think that underlying dynamic tends to get missed when the rest of the world watches the things our politicians say and do. It's like when the previous president said you could keep your existing health insurance. No one including his supporters actually believed that to be the case, but it was a way to BS past what supporters of nationalizing health insurance believed to be a detail that could derail the larger process they were trying to force through.

Like I said before, the thing being debated is never the thing that's actually being debated. Most of the debate on climate change has nothing to do with science and everything to do with competing visions of the country as socialist vs. not-socialist.

You're right I am from the UK, and thank you for that insight into the dynamics of American politics, very interesting indeed...

 

[MNejc]

Climate change is a scam.

 

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