Overwhelmed with Apps, finally burned out...

[beatgoezon]

Well damn, I didn't imagine the marketing part of mobile games would be so complicated but I've finally burned out, lol I haven't even been able think straight for a week now.

I started a progress thread here if you want to catch up, about mobile games

https://www.thefastlaneforum.com/co...reneur-path-ios-and-android-apps-games.57623/

but these days I've been completely overwhelmed with where to go.

Spoke with some publishers, none are taking my game at the time, I thought if a publisher would take the game it could save me some time with learning proper indie game marketing, which I can't figure out for the life of me!

Well, I'm not sure what to do, except read some Appreneur books, and try to figure out how to get a successful pre and post launch of a game. I have a long way to go, still have to complete better quality games, but I just thought maybe a little reward could motivate me if a publisher took me up, but it's back to the struggle for now...

I guess for now I'll take a break today and try to get my head screwed back on again

 

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[theag]

FB ads?

 

[johnp]

Well damn, I didn't imagine the marketing part of mobile games would be so complicated but I've finally burned out, lol I haven't even been able think straight for a week now.

I have been having some success in apps, but for B2B. Anyway, the more that I work with the app store the more opportunities that I begin to see. This leads me to a question about your process:

When you develop an app how are you determining what type of game to build? Are you just building something that interests you or are you looking for a need in the app store?

I have noticed that a lot of the marketing for the apps actually happens before the app is built. This is the keyword research, competitive intelligence, and all of the preparation that goes into making an app successful.

Have you tried doing the research, finding an idea that can work, and then building? Or you are building first with no idea about whether or not it will work, then marketing?

In the b2b world, before I even build an app I know that it's going to make me $x.xx per month. This is because I actually sell the app to the business before I build it. But I think that this same logic should be applied to consumer driven apps. You obviously can't pre-sell the app, but you can gather enough data to determine whether or not the app is worth building. This will help lower risk.

 

[obrian]

i am gonna tell you the truth i created a game already sometime this year put it on playstore i doubt it gonna any download lol, it took me 5 months to create it, alot of latenights and stuff but it's pretty hard to get recognition but it is possible though.you can try and post it on game forums for android or you can make a deal with some of the android game websites that write blogs about games so that they can write blogs about your game and give you some press .

 

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[Abdiel]

Like the others mentioned before, try to target a topic that's already there. Marketing games requires a bit of compromising. Try giving the game away for free to a community and get some beta testers. Even if the app is 100% complete, the feedback they provide will set off the buzz when you reply to the discussions.

To test the waters in the android market I did a test;
I prepared two games using the exact same source, the only difference was the graphics and added optimization on the second one. They launched practically at the same time, yet the first game got me 628 downloads and the other one at the time of this writing only has 121 downloads.

The difference was the theme of the game. The first game is called Agapito Survive and it was based off of the governor of Puerto Rico, he was getting a lot of fire for being... 'special' so there was already a demand for the topic. The other one was called Skull hit and being the most beautiful of the two with better optimization didn't matter because It didn't have a demand at the time. This meant I had to build a demand for it which made it extra harder to market so I left it on the store and plan on marketing it for Halloween.

Just like everything else, if there's a market for your topic then you'll be able to get faster downloads, if there isn't a demand you'll have to spend more time creating one.

Get some good App store optimization (ASO) books, if you have kindle unlimited there are a lot of books about the topic in amazon. If you don't have KindleUnlimited then have a look at the ASO bible by Gabriel Machuret (or find him on Udemy for a video course), its basic stuff but very well explained.

 

[beatgoezon]

FB ads?

The main problem with FB ads is that the user acquisition per install isn't feasible with simpler mobile games, unless they have high retention value to generate more ad impressions and In App Sales, I've thought about FB but the cost per install is higher than revenue per install..

 

[beatgoezon]

I have been having some success in apps, but for B2B. Anyway, the more that I work with the app store the more opportunities that I begin to see. This leads me to a question about your process:

When you develop an app how are you determining what type of game to build? Are you just building something that interests you or are you looking for a need in the app store?

I have noticed that a lot of the marketing for the apps actually happens before the app is built. This is the keyword research, competitive intelligence, and all of the preparation that goes into making an app successful.

Have you tried doing the research, finding an idea that can work, and then building? Or you are building first with no idea about whether or not it will work, then marketing?

In the b2b world, before I even build an app I know that it's going to make me $x.xx per month. This is because I actually sell the app to the business before I build it. But I think that this same logic should be applied to consumer driven apps. You obviously can't pre-sell the app, but you can gather enough data to determine whether or not the app is worth building. This will help lower risk.

That's some great advice Johnp, I do something similar, since I'm making games, I research what's trending/hot/on top charts etc, from there I begin development on a game. So far I've only made one game that's actually considered to be a decent launchable game, the others were really practices.

Ofcourse, you have to know exactly who to target, I guess to be honest that might be a big problem since I'm really not sure where the demographic for the game is. That is the main problem, promoting through the right channels to audiences is the hardest part here bud...

 

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[beatgoezon]

i am gonna tell you the truth i created a game already sometime this year put it on playstore i doubt it gonna any download lol, it took me 5 months to create it, alot of latenights and stuff but it's pretty hard to get recognition but it is possible though.you can try and post it on game forums for android or you can make a deal with some of the android game websites that write blogs about games so that they can write blogs about your game and give you some press .

That's actually a great idea, the Android version is done as well, I just have a slight confusion about what kind of things these sites actually look for in a story to feature, like here are some links I've dug up as well but haven't really sent them the Android version of the game, maybe they can help someone out

I'm just confused about what kind of games they look for or what kind of pitch/story they want to hear to feature an article about the game. Do they like indie RPGs or casual pick and play style games? The game I made was made fairly quickly since it was a practice game, but the feedback was pretty positive, which has left me confused about where to go from there lol...

Appreciate the great tip obrian, I'll get my head back and pitch to them


Oh btw did you ever reach out to larger presses like Mashable, iMore, etc? It took you like 5 months to make, obviously it sounds like a pretty large game with retention value, I'm sure if you reach out and give an exclusive to the big sites it can get some traction, did you try that yet @obrian because I recommend you do, it could boost the downloads a lot man!

Here are 3 decent app review sites someone once recommended me to pitch to to get the best audiences, incase someone wants to know

http://appaddict.net/

http://www.appreviewcentral.net/

http://www.iphoneapp-reviews.com/contact/

 

[beatgoezon]

Like the others mentioned before, try to target a topic that's already there. Marketing games requires a bit of compromising. Try giving the game away for free to a community and get some beta testers. Even if the app is 100% complete, the feedback they provide will set off the buzz when you reply to the discussions.

To test the waters in the android market I did a test;
I prepared two games using the exact same source, the only difference was the graphics and added optimization on the second one. They launched practically at the same time, yet the first game got me 628 downloads and the other one at the time of this writing only has 121 downloads.

The difference was the theme of the game. The first game is called Agapito Survive and it was based off of the governor of Puerto Rico, he was getting a lot of fire for being... 'special' so there was already a demand for the topic. The other one was called Skull hit and being the most beautiful of the two with better optimization didn't matter because It didn't have a demand at the time. This meant I had to build a demand for it which made it extra harder to market so I left it on the store and plan on marketing it for Halloween.

Just like everything else, if there's a market for your topic then you'll be able to get faster downloads, if there isn't a demand you'll have to spend more time creating one.

Get some good App store optimization (ASO) books, if you have kindle unlimited there are a lot of books about the topic in amazon. If you don't have KindleUnlimited then have a look at the ASO bible by Gabriel Machuret (or find him on Udemy for a video course), its basic stuff but very well explained.

Great advice @Abdiel , I can see how a game themed around a popular subject would attract more users.

Yea I've heard Gabriel gives incredable advice in ASO Bible. The suggestion to get a lot of books on the subject is spot on, since I already downloaded quite a few courses and ebooks on the subject. The Appreneur Summit and the Appreneur Handbook was very helpful which, like I've mentioned somewhere else, had Fastlane's @Rcaraway1989 , and it gave some amazing advice from the leading app experts, but in all honesty in the last week or so I read the book but my brain doesn't process any of it. I'm burning some steam off until I get back to normal and then plan on absorbing the books, courses, and reading all the indie game promotion tips.

The problem I'm having is there's so much to do, so much to learn, and so much to take care of, in the last week it's all just become so chaotic about how success in mobile game development is attained, just trying to hit that...

I do appreciate the advice @Abdiel you've cleared some great things up here in my mind!

 

[johnp]

That's some great advice Johnp, I do something similar, since I'm making games, I research what's trending/hot/on top charts etc, from there I begin development on a game. So far I've only made one game that's actually considered to be a decent launchable game, the others were really practices.

Ofcourse, you have to know exactly who to target, I guess to be honest that might be a big problem since I'm really not sure where the demographic for the game is. That is the main problem, promoting through the right channels to audiences is the hardest part here bud...

What sites are you using for this? What's trending hot is a good start but you can go much further with your research. I would do some competitive intel on different apps. Try to find their keywords, download trends, revenue, and ASO tactics, etc..

I started a big site awhile back. I got burned out pretty fast when it came time to market the site. That was only because I had no clue what I was doing because I didn't do enough prep. If I had known exactly how to drive traffic before hand then it would be a completely different story. So I'm always going to say that it all starts with research..a good plan...and some excel sheets.

 

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[mws87]

Sounds like you've hit the desert of desertion. This is the part where you either give up or make it happen. Why are you relying on a publisher? Publish it yourself. Do what you have to do for marketing, maybe get some rest, but I think you should at least have your stuff hit the market and exhaust all ends before you just give up.

 

[obrian]

That's actually a great idea, the Android version is done as well, I just have a slight confusion about what kind of things these sites actually look for in a story to feature, like here are some links I've dug up as well but haven't really sent them the Android version of the game, maybe they can help someone out

I'm just confused about what kind of games they look for or what kind of pitch/story they want to hear to feature an article about the game. Do they like indie RPGs or casual pick and play style games? The game I made was made fairly quickly since it was a practice game, but the feedback was pretty positive, which has left me confused about where to go from there lol...

Appreciate the great tip obrian, I'll get my head back and pitch to them


Oh btw did you ever reach out to larger presses like Mashable, iMore, etc? It took you like 5 months to make, obviously it sounds like a pretty large game with retention value, I'm sure if you reach out and give an exclusive to the big sites it can get some traction, did you try that yet @obrian because I recommend you do, it could boost the downloads a lot man!

Here are 3 decent app review sites someone once recommended me to pitch to to get the best audiences, incase someone wants to know

http://appaddict.net/

http://www.appreviewcentral.net/

http://www.iphoneapp-reviews.com/contact/

i am going to try it out, but i did it just to test the market, lol and the reason why it took 5 months was because i just started learning game development so that was my first game, but overall it was pretty good it is similar to floppy bird. you can advertise your app on http://mobilestartupz.com/. i also find this answer useful from quora and i quote "

Post your apps in popular android/ios forums, which will be seen by the users and most importantly influencers in the industry. Whenever a good app is posted in the forum, the moderators often keep and eye out for any unique ones and post them in their websites. Here are few forums to get your apps noticed by some notable influencers.
AndroidCentral -http://www.androidcentral.com/
AndroidPolice -http://www.androidpolice.com/
AndroidPit -http://www.androidpit.com/
AppBrain- http://www.appbrain.com/
MobileStartupz (http://mobilestartupz.com/)
TouchArcade -http://toucharcade.com/
148Apps -http://www.148apps.com/
AppCraver - http://www.appcraver.com/
TUAW -http://www.tuaw.com/apprequests/"

you know what just read this quora post, i find it useful lol and i wish you all the best with your game.
http://www.quora.com/What-is-the-best-way-to-advertise-a-new-Android-app

 

[EdKirby]

I really look forward to reading your progress thread. I've just started my own game project. I'm working on the proto now and it's the reason I've been radio dark for a few days. I've been meaning to start my own PT.

Be that as it may, I'm developing using Unity3d. The reason I mention this is they have some great resources and community over there. What may be of interest to you is at the following link: http://unity3d.com/learn/tutorials/modules/beginner/marketing-and-pr (not sure if I can post links but I'm sure someone will let me know )

I've watched both of those videos and I think they're pretty good IMHO.

Take a look.

 

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[James Thornton]

You've shipped products, and deserve credit for that. Am I correct to assume Impossible Cubie was the first, Photon Runner second, Timber Chimp third?

I ask because of the graphics. That's the weakness I see, but there is clear improvement from one game to the next. Although there are exceptions like crappy bird, I think the fight for downloads starts with graphics (then reviews & price)

The good news: It's just sprites. You can keep the same game play and programming, hire an artist to improve the graphics, and just swap 'em out.

Also FB ads are cheap to test. Just throw $5 at it. Good luck

 

[obrian]

I really look forward to reading your progress thread. I've just started my own game project. I'm working on the proto now and it's the reason I've been radio dark for a few days. I've been meaning to start my own PT.

Be that as it may, I'm developing using Unity3d. The reason I mention this is they have some great resources and community over there. What may be of interest to you is at the following link: http://unity3d.com/learn/tutorials/modules/beginner/marketing-and-pr (not sure if I can post links but I'm sure someone will let me know )

I've watched both of those videos and I think they're pretty good IMHO.

Take a look.

i used unity it's really good and easy, and i use adobe illustrator for the background and graphics but i really like unity it's so damn powerful lol.

 

[mws87]

i used unity it's really good and easy, and i use adobe illustrator for the background and graphics but i really like unity it's so damn powerful lol.

Have you checked out UE4 (unreal engine)? Has some amazing capabilities. I was a unity guy too until I switched over. I think UE is a little more giving with royalties, but I may be mistaken.

 

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[obrian]

Have you checked out UE4 (unreal engine)? Has some amazing capabilities. I was a unity guy too until I switched over. I think UE is a little more giving with royalties, but I may be mistaken.

nope i am gonna give it a try thanks.

 

[EdKirby]

Have you checked out UE4 (unreal engine)? Has some amazing capabilities. I was a unity guy too until I switched over. I think UE is a little more giving with royalties, but I may be mistaken.

Unity doesn't charge a royalty fee, even for titles made with the free version.

 

[beatgoezon]

What sites are you using for this? What's trending hot is a good start but you can go much further with your research. I would do some competitive intel on different apps. Try to find their keywords, download trends, revenue, and ASO tactics, etc..

I started a big site awhile back. I got burned out pretty fast when it came time to market the site. That was only because I had no clue what I was doing because I didn't do enough prep. If I had known exactly how to drive traffic before hand then it would be a completely different story. So I'm always going to say that it all starts with research..a good plan...and some excel sheets.

Hey Johnp, I use mainly AppAnnie and the Top charts to see what's working, what's trending, but it's like you just said, I don't have much prep with deeper analysis at all sadly. Keywords, revenue, ASO tactics, channels of promotion, etc, haven't been utalized at all, and quite frankly I don't quite know how to use them yet... I've made the mistake of thinking just focus on creating good games, art, etc would be enough, but I think now it's time I focused my efforts towards the distribution/marketing aspect of the business. Do you think ASO plus some review sites for games would be enough, or is there something deeper I'm missing?

 

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[beatgoezon]

Sounds like you've hit the desert of desertion. This is the part where you either give up or make it happen. Why are you relying on a publisher? Publish it yourself. Do what you have to do for marketing, maybe get some rest, but I think you should at least have your stuff hit the market and exhaust all ends before you just give up.

You're absolutely right @mws87, that video about the Desert of Desertion was spot on, I just didn't know it would be this hard lol...

And no bud, I have no right to quit and don't plan to, I haven't even progressed half way yet in the journey, I know what I lack, and I know hitting success with apps is totally possible, I believe I have to get the launch and marketing nailed to do it...

 

[beatgoezon]

i am going to try it out, but i did it just to test the market, lol and the reason why it took 5 months was because i just started learning game development so that was my first game, but overall it was pretty good it is similar to floppy bird. you can advertise your app on http://mobilestartupz.com/. i also find this answer useful from quora and i quote "

Post your apps in popular android/ios forums, which will be seen by the users and most importantly influencers in the industry. Whenever a good app is posted in the forum, the moderators often keep and eye out for any unique ones and post them in their websites. Here are few forums to get your apps noticed by some notable influencers.
AndroidCentral -http://www.androidcentral.com/
AndroidPolice -http://www.androidpolice.com/
AndroidPit -http://www.androidpit.com/
AppBrain- http://www.appbrain.com/
MobileStartupz (http://mobilestartupz.com/)
TouchArcade -http://toucharcade.com/
148Apps -http://www.148apps.com/
AppCraver - http://www.appcraver.com/
TUAW -http://www.tuaw.com/apprequests/"

you know what just read this quora post, i find it useful lol and i wish you all the best with your game.
http://www.quora.com/What-is-the-best-way-to-advertise-a-new-Android-app

Wow thanks for the epic list of review sites @obrian seriously this clears up a lot of the confusion of where to begin! And as for you bud I'd also say launch your game up, I've made the mistake of over analyzing and reading stuff until all of that got mixed up and chaotic, I think the only way to overcome these weaknesses is to dive in and try... Thank you again man for the great help bud

 

[beatgoezon]

I really look forward to reading your progress thread. I've just started my own game project. I'm working on the proto now and it's the reason I've been radio dark for a few days. I've been meaning to start my own PT.

Be that as it may, I'm developing using Unity3d. The reason I mention this is they have some great resources and community over there. What may be of interest to you is at the following link: http://unity3d.com/learn/tutorials/modules/beginner/marketing-and-pr (not sure if I can post links but I'm sure someone will let me know )

I've watched both of those videos and I think they're pretty good IMHO.

Take a look.

@EdKirby, that's very cool man I'm checking it out now. This should also be a good first few steps, I appreciate the link you posted man

 

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[beatgoezon]

You've shipped products, and deserve credit for that. Am I correct to assume Impossible Cubie was the first, Photon Runner second, Timber Chimp third?

I ask because of the graphics. That's the weakness I see, but there is clear improvement from one game to the next. Although there are exceptions like crappy bird, I think the fight for downloads starts with graphics (then reviews & price)

The good news: It's just sprites. You can keep the same game play and programming, hire an artist to improve the graphics, and just swap 'em out.

Also FB ads are cheap to test. Just throw $5 at it. Good luck

Yup exactly, those two "games" were how I began learning the process of game creation, they won't succeed because they don't provide any retention to users, the third one is also just me learning, but it seemed to have retention from users. The biggest weakness for me would be art at the moment, an artist could fix that up easily.

I'll try some FB ads now just to see what kind of feedback I can get, thanks a lot man

 

[johnp]

Do you think ASO plus some review sites for games would be enough, or is there something deeper I'm missing?

From what I understand, ASO is great, but it's not the perfect solution anymore. If you're on iOS then make sure that you're using the built in analytics that Apple provides.

I learned a lot from a few courses online. Feel free to PM me if you want the link.

 

[James Thornton]

Have you checked out UE4 (unreal engine)? Has some amazing capabilities. I was a unity guy too until I switched over. I think UE is a little more giving with royalties, but I may be mistaken.

A beautiful renderer, but even people on the Unreal forums will tell you, it's not as good for mobile (yet). It's amazing for pc/console, though.

However, it can do mobile, you just have to manually disable a lot of the awesome effects. It produces a larger file size, too, which makes it hard to get under the app store limits. Also not as good for 2d.

They apparently are working hard at it, and say many of the effects not supported on previous gen devices should be supported on upcoming devices.

Still, the in-game renders are simply beauty shots. Truly amazing

 

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[James Thornton]

The biggest weakness for me would be art at the moment, an artist could fix that up easily.

Definitely. Been doing digital art for years, there's a ridiculous abundance of talent out there. Someone can easily kick the graphics up a notch.

Regarding marketing (free and paid) just remember it's a funnel. If you don't put anyone in the top, no one comes out the bottom.

 

[EdKirby]

@EdKirby, that's very cool man I'm checking it out now. This should also be a good first few steps, I appreciate the link you posted man

You're welcome man! If I come across anything else that no one else has suggested I'll be sure to share it. This is something I'm keenly aware of right now too. lol

Oh, one thing; I'm not sure if this was mentioned yet but you should begin your efforts before release. I believe that it was covered in the videos but the gist is for mobile it's suggested at least 30 days but not much more because of the volatile nature of the mobile market. Whereas, with desktop and console you should be starting months to years in advance to get people interested and develop buzz.

But 'buzz' you must generate regardless! ( I know, I have an incredible grasp of the obvious. )

 

[OverByte]

@beatgoezon I just checked out your latest demo for Timber Chimp. I like the basic concept of it but I'm interested how you plan on monetizing it?

The problem I see with the current market for games is that they are expected to be free and they are expected to be very high quality. Most games are then monetized either by advertisements or by IAP. However, it seems to be the case that a very large percentage of your users will make you absolutely no money as they will never buy anything and monetizing through ads is incredibly difficult. So in either case you need a massive following unless you come up with a really slick monetization model.

I released my own game recently (I thought learning Unity would be fun and I had no other burning ideas) and attempted to monetize it by having the player watch a video to continue or allow for free restarts. You could alternative get 5, 10 continues packs if you purchased them.

I haven't marketing the game outside of a few blog posts and a brief feature on appadvice.com (since they contacted me). Basically I wanted to get an initial set of a hundred or so users to see if the game seemed like it could be viable enough in order to warrant me spending time and possibly money on marketing it and hopefully getting it picked up by a large group.

So I've had a couple hundred downloads (organically - not sure exactly where they came from and not sure how to figure that out - it would be extremely useful for marketing refinement) and the number of people that buy something is 0, the number of people who watch ads to continue is also extremely minimal. This may be due to the game/monetization strategy and likely if it was absolutely "cant get enough" type game things may be different but I expected better results from this.

Based on the stats I got I basically gave up on marketing the idea in favour of something more lucrative. I would have to have hundreds of thousands of users to make $1000/month. It just isn't sustainable. I don't want to be a downer but I really don't see how an independent developer can make money in this business. The more I researched even small studios with hit games barely make enough to keep making games. I think you really have to be in this business because you love it, and not necessarily because you see it as a fastlane.

Really don't mean to be a downer here, this is just what I found after a lot of research and my own launch experience.

In case you are interested my game is here: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.overbytegames.NinjaGoldRush

I don't want to hijack the thread but if you're interested I can provide some other lessons learned about developing a game (I made a ton of mistakes building this ). I may at some point write my own thread about it. Frustratingly, I think I could probably start banging out games very quickly based on the libraries & skills I've acquired, but honestly I'm not sure how to turn a profit on them.

Regarding the comments about the aesthetics I agree - it's expected any game, even free, has to look great and be extremely polished (smooth animations, cool sound effects, etc) however, if you want something with a good retention rate, it needs depth and a way to hook people in. I think for an indy I think you need to have something pretty unique because you won't be able to compete with big budget productions in terms of depths, graphics, or marketing.

Apologies for the dire post. I may just be jaded, I also could be completely wrong but I'm hoping some of the above helps you / others out.

Let me know when the game is released and I'll definitely check it out though, I think it looks pretty good.

 

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[James Thornton]

My strategy for all projects I'm working on, including games: Hook the product right into something popular, and watch it ride off into the sunset.

Ideas are just passengers. They need something to ride, if you want them to travel.

In other words, stop making games YOU think are cool. Find a viable market to serve (big, but targetable), and make something awesome for them.

A lot of successful games certainly don't do that, but that's where I see opportunity.

 

[mws87]

A beautiful renderer, but even people on the Unreal forums will tell you, it's not as good for mobile (yet). It's amazing for pc/console, though.

However, it can do mobile, you just have to manually disable a lot of the awesome effects. It produces a larger file size, too, which makes it hard to get under the app store limits. Also not as good for 2d.

They apparently are working hard at it, and say many of the effects not supported on previous gen devices should be supported on upcoming devices.

Still, the in-game renders are simply beauty shots. Truly amazing

Ah, completely forgot we were talking about mobile apps *slaps self*
It is an amazing engine for sure, I downloaded it just to play around with it and see what it can do. Man, really brought back some old motivation from when I was 13 and creating "total conversions" for old FPS games.

Unity doesn't charge a royalty fee, even for titles made with the free version.

Ah, sorry, it wasn't royalties. I can't remember what the hell I was reading about it, maybe it had something to do with publishing or something. Or, the more likely event - I probably let my over-active mind get the best of me again.