Morals of business and selling

[Lyinx]

Sometimes, grammar nazis are your friend, though:

"Highlights of his global tour include encounters with Nelson Mandela, an 800-year-old demigod and a dildo collector”

missing a very helpful comma...

deliberately seeded the previous comment to see if I can get Rabbi on here again

 

[Rabby]

*@!Xing grammor nazis man...

Sometimes, grammar nazis are your friend, though:

"Highlights of his global tour include encounters with Nelson Mandela, an 800-year-old demigod and a dildo collector”

missing a very helpful comma...

Surely "grammor" was a typo, since gramarye nazis are the type of nazis who can summon 800-year-old demigods...

deliberately seeded the previous comment to see if I can get Rabbi on here again

Uh huh... I see what you did there...

 

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[WabiSabi]

You have a right to exist and survive. When both people agree to a transaction, both people should benefit. BOTH lives should be made better because of the exchange. If you satisfy this criteria you should have no qualms about it. For grey things, If your goals are righteous the ends justify the means.

Some people are going to piss their money away no matter what. Alot of the time they're just ignorant. Some people use this as an excuse to fleece them, but it also presents an opportunity to educate them. Some can be saved, some can't, but I don't waste much energy worrying about strangers, unless it's my business.

As much as you'd like to think your boss, customers, clients, or anyone else who isn't your family and best friends would come save you, they wouldn't. They don't care.

People operate from a position of mutual gain, if you give them reason to they will. Most people just expect unconditional support when that's just not human nature. I agree most people tend to overestimate their worth to others.

 

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[RayAndré]

Rewire your brain.

I appreciate the detailed response @Ocean Man. Believe me, I've been doing a LOT of brain rewiring lately. And this is my latest sticking point, hence me reaching out for input
I'll definitely check out the book

You are doing things that contribute to the overall suckiness of the company you work for.

Or, you could...

3. Accept its okay to be the "selfish a**hole" and become honest with yourself and admit what you really want is to be successful.

haha, yes, this. accepting being an "a**hole" is something I've kinda struggled with in general in areas where it would be beneficial to do so

in this case though...re-reading this made me think I'd get/feel judged by my mom for taking the selfish a**hole approach to business. That plus I can probably find something "wrong" with just about any business (like the few examples previously mentioned)...which is NOT a good state of mind to be in.

Like @Ocean Man said...got to rewire the brain there.

 

[RayAndré]

A book that I recommend reading: Thou Shall Prosper: Ten Commandments for Making Money by Daniel Lapin

Just started reading this...SO GOOD. I wish I read this ages ago.
Thanks for the rec

 

[RayAndré]

yea I guess I grew up with a non-pro-capitalist mindset. not necessarily an anti-capitalist one, just not totally for it. and if anything my parents were probably somewhat more socialist or maybe even communist mentality. I'm not sure.
either way, I just need to fully convince myself that capitalism is the way to go. and I already believe that on some levels.
I kinda feel like Kiyosaki from Rich Dad Poor Dad, trying to make his own decisions when being taught two opposing viewpoints.

 

[Lyinx]

"nagative externality"...never heard of it

Same here... this is what a quick search got me... Externality - Wikipedia

I never thought of it like that, especially how ones actions affect others (like the truck in the photo, pouring out diesel) would have been considered as, "not a big deal", but if you think of how it affects others... yikes...

 

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[Rabby]

"Nagative" was surely a typo, and negative externality is mentioned in the wikipedia article

 

[Lyinx]

"Nagative" was surely a typo, and negative externality is mentioned in the wikipedia article

*@!Xing grammor nazis man...

 

[socaldude]

Just learned something new. Theres also negative and positive internalities. A buyer or seller incurs a negative consequence like buying and smoking cigarettes.

I guess this is most consistent with what we are discussing.

Internality - Wikipedia

 

[Phil Yu]

This is just my humble .02

It is all about prospective. You can only take care so much to a point and no matter what you do, someone can see it as negative. Lets say you are sharing your business tip on social media, the pro socialism would say that you are raising other to take advantage workers.

The way i do it, i just do what i can. I dont sell things i dont feel good about. When i do business, I would do the best customer service i can so that they have a good purchase experience. There was this flip i did last year. the customer messaged me and told me that the jersey i sold him made his day. Could this baseball fandom of his is ruining his marriage? it can be. But at least i did what i can.

 

[RayAndré]

So I've been trying to figure this one out...
I know its a "mindset" or "belief system" issue, and I've been trying to crack it in my head, but could use some help.

It seems that no matter what business you're in, no matter how valuable your product is, no matter how much it actually helps people...somewhere there is "waste".

• You sell Tesla cars to save the environment...YES the buyers have a low carbon footprint but the Tesla factories and manufacturing process probably do some environmentally shady shit to bring them to market.
• You sell people on [starting their own business, inventing their own products, trading the stock market, etc]...YES those who do can change their life, but most probably won't get it.
• You're a life coach and sell people on your books, seminars, coaching, etc...YES some people will have amazing results, but most will simply not do the work required.
• Or (not to make this a religious argument by any means) you're God or the church or whatever, and tell everyone to worship you and tithe...but again most people just aren't going to live their lives fully according to your dogma and aren't going to reap the full rewards compared to if they did.

It seems that this affects everyone and everything!

So my question is...how do you justify entering into business selling products when you know the "goodness efficiency" of it is going to be low. You know most people who buy your products aren't going to get the most benefit. You know there is going to be some "waste"...and that waste is your gain.


Side note:
(As an employee, or perhaps a provider of some services, this isn't as much the case. Since your time is directly going to producing value. Maybe you the employee are "wasting" your time/life. Or you slack off a bit on the job and so you're "wasting" some of the company's money.)


Anyway, this has been rolling around in my head a while and I haven't yet flipped the switch on this one. But I know I can somehow.
Some have suggested:

• Well you do the thing for the few that do get the most benefit. The few that do make up for the many that don't.
• Maybe sell higher priced products/services so you weed out all the "many" that aren't going to be dedicated to getting the full benefit.

Any more ideas, thoughts, whatever, I'm open to hearing and would love a discussion about this. Especially from those already running successful businesses.

 

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[RayAndré]

I don't understand how people can not see the world as having losers and winners. Lions and zebras. The lion doesn't have an existential crisis trying to justify eating a zebra. It just eats the food it wants to eat. It doesn't try to set up a "win-win" for the zebra.

ha! love this. yes, be more lion.

You would likely be judged by your mom. I also get judged by my mom. She is a normal person who will never build anything great (my mom idk about yours). That's what she chose, I chose different.

Yea...got to face the facts I guess. My mom's a teacher.

If there was no such thing as business for profit, we would all still be hunter gatherers.

I think RayAndré that you have already found your way out of this dilemma. You seem to know what is right and what is wrong. In my opinion it all boils down to personal ethics.

Thanks Walter. Yea I just know that I've been the too-nice (and too-critical) guy for most of my life, and that type of mentality is now an obstacle in business. So I feel I need to redefine my ethics in business, that aren't as angelic as I used to think. Or rather, that re-define "angelic".

You provide something someone wants to buy

They buy it....

No more alarm clocks, crappy bosses, stinky coworkers with bad breath, 30 minute lunch breaks, fear of getting fired, being away from home 50+ hours a week > commutes in traffic/public transportation (just thinking about being on a bus freaks me out) not being able to enjoy a week day without being tired as hell, not having the free time to do something fun, dreading getting up in the morning, being forced to eat breakfast and shower in the morning at some ridiculous time.....being stressed about being late to a place you don't want to be!?!?!? Always thought that was a funny one....

CRAP, I'm late to a place I DONT wanna be! I better hurryup so I can get there and dream about going home for the remaining 8 hours!

 

[Kevin88660]

So I've been trying to figure this one out...
I know its a "mindset" or "belief system" issue, and I've been trying to crack it in my head, but could use some help.

It seems that no matter what business you're in, no matter how valuable your product is, no matter how much it actually helps people...somewhere there is "waste".

• You sell Tesla cars to save the environment...YES the buyers have a low carbon footprint but the Tesla factories and manufacturing process probably do some environmentally shady shit to bring them to market.
• You sell people on [starting their own business, inventing their own products, trading the stock market, etc]...YES those who do can change their life, but most probably won't get it.
• You're a life coach and sell people on your books, seminars, coaching, etc...YES some people will have amazing results, but most will simply not do the work required.
• Or (not to make this a religious argument by any means) you're God or the church or whatever, and tell everyone to worship you and tithe...but again most people just aren't going to live their lives fully according to your dogma and aren't going to reap the full rewards compared to if they did.

It seems that this affects everyone and everything!

So my question is...how do you justify entering into business selling products when you know the "goodness efficiency" of it is going to be low. You know most people who buy your products aren't going to get the most benefit. You know there is going to be some "waste"...and that waste is your gain.


Side note:
(As an employee, or perhaps a provider of some services, this isn't as much the case. Since your time is directly going to producing value. Maybe you the employee are "wasting" your time/life. Or you slack off a bit on the job and so you're "wasting" some of the company's money.)


Anyway, this has been rolling around in my head a while and I haven't yet flipped the switch on this one. But I know I can somehow.
Some have suggested:

• Well you do the thing for the few that do get the most benefit. The few that do make up for the many that don't.
• Maybe sell higher priced products/services so you weed out all the "many" that aren't going to be dedicated to getting the full benefit.

Any more ideas, thoughts, whatever, I'm open to hearing and would love a discussion about this. Especially from those already running successful businesses.

With the exception of Tesla, from the examples you have given you do have a problem with people selling snake oil.

Just stop selling snake oil.

 

[Lyinx]

I think the best way to think about it is in first principles. Who own or controls the resources and how. Stuff like that.

I was reminded of this very thing when the pandemic hit... I thought, "who controls things"?
the most important things are: 1: food, and 2:safety ... everything else is based on top of those two things.

 

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[socaldude]

I just remembered in economics its called a nagative externality.

 

[RayAndré]

"nagative externality"...never heard of it