Low Dopamine levels and motivation

[Bekit]

I have been trying to sort problems with depression and sort my get up and go attitude. Dopamine is also linked to reward "Anyway, when one first learns about dopamine, you learn about a "reward" molecule, the one that makes you feel good. Over time, scientists have found that it's not just about reward with dopamine. Dopamine has a lot more to do with things we like to call salience and value. The salience of a cue is in part related to its strength, and it part related to what its connected with. Basically, a cue is high salience if it gives you a good reason to pay attention. It isn't attention itself, it's being connected to something worth paying attention to. This is connected to the item's value. After all, if it's something I don't value, the article isn't going to be very salient to me, it won't be worth paying attention to." It might've sounded suspect but it is an interesting topic, and so many people don't realise how the brain works, and what makes people so different one person achieving goals and being successful and someone else the exact opposite. I'm sure you've heard of Aspartame and phenylalanine, that's actually known as the love chemical. Basically you will have so much drive and energy BUT it doesn't last forever usually a fews days, and then the brain tolerates it. You're best speaking to your Doctor if you think you have low levels of motivation and see what they suggest. Regs Bry

I've done a fair amount of experimentation on myself in this area, and I do think it's worth keeping as a tool in your arsenal if you struggle with low motivation.

I got started on the topic when I was at my sister's wedding and started chatting with one of the guests. He was a board member of several companies and had helped several entrepreneurs, so I asked him for advice.

But the conversation took a surprising turn. He started guessing things about me, and all of his guesses were right.

He said things like, "And I bet you have trouble motivating yourself to do mundane things, like cleaning your apartment, right?" Yes!

"And you also dive into projects when they're new with an insane level of focus and drive, but when the project gets old, you struggle to follow through?" Yes!

"And in college, you probably waited until the last minute to write a paper or study for a test?" Yes!

It was a whole series of questions like this, and I was like, "How did you know???"

He laughed. Turns out he spent his entire career specializing in the diagnosis and treatment of ADD and ADHD. Apparently, I was a classic case.

So this doctor explained to me that while ADD and ADHD tend to have a stigma, they're actually positively correlated with higher levels of intelligence. The higher your IQ, the more likely it is that you have ADD.

He explained that there's something in your brain called the executive function. The executive function is the thing that decides, "I'm going to do this thing now." It makes the decision to execute. When your executive function is low, you struggle to make those decisions. And you'll particularly struggle when the task is boring or mundane.

So he said that there are two primary ways to self medicate it: (1) Caffeine and (2) Exercise.

He suggested I try consuming caffeine right before the next time I attempt a task that is boring and mundane to stimulate the executive function, and see if it helps.

And the next time I had a task that required focus, he suggested that I do some kind of exercise that left me breathless and sweating just prior to the task.

I've been experimenting with these two mechanisms for several years, and they work.

Come to find out, the reason why they work is because ADD is associated with dopamine being out of whack.

Caffeine gives you a dopamine hit. Vigorous exercise releases endorphins.

So when I experience a lack of motivation, the first place I look is dopamine.

Where I've been having the most success: I'm discovering ways of hacking my dopamine levels so that I trick my brain into getting a dopamine hit for the things that really matter. And that has helped me to not only change my behavior and finally DO those mundane things that I struggle to choose to do, but actually find pleasure in them in the process (instead of forcing myself, dragging myself kicking and screaming through the task).

As the OP said, dopamine is definitely worth looking into as the culprit if you're struggling with low motivation.

 

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[Deleted50669]

Whoa. Fascinating.

Yeah, I'm an INTP.

Huh.

So what's up with that? I've never put much stock into the Myers Briggs personalities before, but now you have me thinking.

Are all INTP's like this?

And is being an INTP confusingly similar to being ADD?

Myers Briggs is notoriously unreliable. The way that assessment was created wasn't even driven by personality theory, they just ran correlations on items in a survey and labelled them.

http://indiana.edu/~jobtalk/Articles/develop/mbti.pdf

You can't reliably distill a human being to four dimensions.

 

[fanocks2003]

What I think he or she meant is that dopamine levels are important when it comes to success in money and in other endevours as well.

Those people who succeed with ease are usually those people who have a good and healthy dose of dopamine in their body. Direct correlation? Yes, I think so.

This is relevant because it is a big part of being a successful human being.

 

[Bekit]

Dopamine / motivation make it easier to be motivated, disciplined, focused, etc. But this comes down to the chicken or the egg paradox. Does one precede the other? Or are they mutually reinforcing? In my own experience, when I commited and focused on my current business endeavor, my dopamine was damn low. I was basically depressed. My motivation to take action was driven by logic and acknowledging reality; "If I want my situation to change, this is how I must act." It wasn't until I made significant progress on this path that I'd say I had any spike in dopamine (in a meaningful way). So, in terms of cause and effect, I'd say dopamine CAN make motivation easier to achieve. My main point earlier is that neurotransmitters should never be used as a scapegoat for lack of focus and unwillingness to take action.

That makes sense. I think there is definitely a chicken / egg paradox in play here. And yeah, I definitely don't agree with using neurotransmitters as a scapegoat -

It is all really your biochemistry that determines your lot in life.

I don't agree with this at all ... I'm definitely not going to consent to my lot in life being predetermined by the genetics of my biochemistry, and just sit on my hands and mope about how I can't get anything done. The version of my life I choose to live will be the very best one I can achieve. And that's why I actually find it kind of exciting to explore the dopamine connection, because it means that I have something to experiment with and tweak, not just a constraint that I'm helpless against.

In my own experience, when I commited and focused on my current business endeavor, my dopamine was damn low. I was basically depressed. My motivation to take action was driven by logic and acknowledging reality; "If I want my situation to change, this is how I must act." It wasn't until I made significant progress on this path that I'd say I had any spike in dopamine (in a meaningful way). So, in terms of cause and effect, I'd say dopamine CAN make motivation easier to achieve.

This is powerful! And I think this is where I've seen some gains myself in areas where I struggle the most - when I can get dopamine to actually spike for the core actions that will move my business forward. I'm exploring a systematic way to accelerate this process by intentionally associating dopamine hits with the behaviors that move the needle. And it is working better than anything else I've ever tried.

 

[Deleted50669]

That makes sense. I think there is definitely a chicken / egg paradox in play here. And yeah, I definitely don't agree with using neurotransmitters as a scapegoat -

I don't agree with this at all ... I'm definitely not going to consent to my lot in life being predetermined by the genetics of my biochemistry, and just sit on my hands and mope about how I can't get anything done. The version of my life I chose to live will be the very best one I can achieve. And that's why I actually find it kind of exciting to explore the dopamine connection, because it means that I have something to experiment with and tweak, not just a constraint that I'm helpless against.



This is powerful! And I think this is where I've seen some gains myself in areas where I struggle the most - when I can get dopamine to actually spike for the core actions that will move my business forward. I'm exploring a systematic way to accelerate this process by intentionally associating dopamine hits with the behaviors that move the needle. And it is working better than anything else I've ever tried.

Every action or behavior a person performs has some type of feedback, even if the feedback is nothing at all. We still interpret the outcome of an action, make sense of it, and process it emotionally. It is emotional processing that influences dopamine levels. Think about a long run. Runners get 'runners high' when they finish. Why? Running physiologically triggers the release of dopamine as a response to levels of physiological arousal and perceptions of accomplishment. In business, closing a deal, getting an algorithm to work, etc, these can all have a similar effect on the mind. This also underpins why some people are resilient in business and some aren't. The resilient ones stay motivated DESPITE failure, having no dopamine, no positive feedback, etc., they do still have hope.

 

[Bry1975]

Hi ya,

I just thought I'd mention low levels of dopamine in the brain often mean low levels of motivation and enjoyment in life.

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

And how is this relevant? What is the purpose of this post?

 

[Russ H]

OK, I'll stop.

:smx4::smx4::smx4:

-Russ H.

 

[Bry1975]

Nope I don't have an online pharmacy, just thought it would be a good post.

Shouldn't of bothered.

 

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[Bry1975]

Hi there, I guess I placed the post as I had discussed a similar post on tz-uk.com a watch forum. I have been trying to sort problems with depression and sort my get up and go attitude. Dopamine is also linked to reward "Anyway, when one first learns about dopamine, you learn about a "reward" molecule, the one that makes you feel good. Over time, scientists have found that it's not just about reward with dopamine. Dopamine has a lot more to do with things we like to call salience and value. The salience of a cue is in part related to its strength, and it part related to what its connected with. Basically, a cue is high salience if it gives you a good reason to pay attention. It isn't attention itself, it's being connected to something worth paying attention to. This is connected to the item's value. After all, if it's something I don't value, the article isn't going to be very salient to me, it won't be worth paying attention to." It might've sounded suspect but it is an interesting topic, and so many people don't realise how the brain works, and what makes people so different one person achieving goals and being successful and someone else the exact opposite. I'm sure you've heard of Aspartame and phenylalanine, that's actually known as the love chemical. Basically you will have so much drive and energy BUT it doesn't last forever usually a fews days, and then the brain tolerates it. You're best speaking to your Doctor if you think you have low levels of motivation and see what they suggest. Regs Bry

 

[Kung Fu Steve]

Lots of these "motivational" drugs are a close resemblance to speed and cocaine. A drug such as Ritalin is one molecule away from actually being cocaine. Interesting? I thought so too.

I bet if any "un-motivated" or "un-excited" person out there really probed their life they could find SOMETHING throughout their life that they got excited about. Christmas morning presents, birthday parties, these are pretty basic examples, but if you were to capture that mental state on a consistent basis I don't believe you'd need drugs or anything else period. I do this with the kids all day every day (And adults for that matter - but usually they are more stuck in their ways and don't care to change).

It was mentioned by WildFlower that music can be realy motivational and inspiring. If you associate that song with those feelings, you'll feel them every time you hear that song. But on the other hand if you hear a song over and over in other situations, especially in sad or inactive times the song loses potency quick.

Three things that effect your energy levels

1 - Diet
2 - Mental State
3 - Physical Conditioning

Get these under control (and for REAL, not just saying "oh yeah, I do pretty good at that") will increase your energy immediately. I've been playing with this stuff a LOT lately and have got some great results!

 

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[Zcott]

Old thread is old.

Really old.

 

[Deleted50669]

Huh. That gives me something to chew on.

Your statement, "are correlated, but not directionally causal," planted a seed of doubt in my mind.

Maybe it's an illusion of causality, similar to the person who says, "Every time I go to the eye doctor, I need stronger glasses. I think my glasses are causing my eyesight to deteriorate." Uh, no, your eyesight would have deteriorated anyway, and the stronger glasses just let you correct your vision back up to 20/20.

I do have to ask, though: you say that "They are both the result of low discipline and focus."

To me, it looks like low dopamine is the cause of low motivation, low discipline, and low focus. Or, at least, one cause among many.

Anecdotally, this seems to be proven in my experience. If I try to drum up motivation, discipline, and focus, it rarely works. But if I do something to boost my dopamine, the motivation, discipline, and focus follow effortlessly.

So I'm curious to know... How do I unravel the illusion, if it is one?

Dopamine / motivation make it easier to be motivated, disciplined, focused, etc. But this comes down to the chicken or the egg paradox. Does one precede the other? Or are they mutually reinforcing? In my own experience, when I commited and focused on my current business endeavor, my dopamine was damn low. I was basically depressed. My motivation to take action was driven by logic and acknowledging reality; "If I want my situation to change, this is how I must act." It wasn't until I made significant progress on this path that I'd say I had any spike in dopamine (in a meaningful way). So, in terms of cause and effect, I'd say dopamine CAN make motivation easier to achieve. My main point earlier is that neurotransmitters should never be used as a scapegoat for lack of focus and unwillingness to take action.

 

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[markK]

He started guessing things about me, and all of his guesses were right.

He said things like, "And I bet you have trouble motivating yourself to do mundane things, like cleaning your apartment, right?" Yes!

"And you also dive into projects when they're new with an insane level of focus and drive, but when the project gets old, you struggle to follow through?" Yes!

"And in college, you probably waited until the last minute to write a paper or study for a test?" Yes!

It was a whole series of questions like this, and I was like, "How did you know???"

I can totally relate to your responses to these questions.

I also recognize that these are common behaviors of the INTP personality type according to the Myers Briggs personality test. (I did test as an INTP)

Have you @Bekit taken the test? www.16personalities.com
I'm curious if there is a connection or if it's just another observation perspective of the same behavioral patterns??? I'm definitely looking for the unlock...if there is one.
Exercise definitely helps me too.

 

[Bekit]

I can totally relate to your responses to these questions.

I also recognize that these are common behaviors of the INTP personality type according to the Myers Briggs personality test. (I did test as an INTP)

Have you @Bekit taken the test? www.16personalities.com
I'm curious if there is a connection or if it's just another observation perspective of the same behavioral patterns??? I'm definitely looking for the unlock...if there is one.
Exercise definitely helps me too.

Whoa. Fascinating.

Yeah, I'm an INTP.

Huh.

So what's up with that? I've never put much stock into the Myers Briggs personalities before, but now you have me thinking.

Are all INTP's like this?

And is being an INTP confusingly similar to being ADD?

 

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[markK]

Whoa. Fascinating.

Yeah, I'm an INTP.

Huh.

So what's up with that? I've never put much stock into the Meyers Briggs personalities before, but now you have me thinking.

Are all INTP's like this?

And is being an INTP confusingly similar to being ADD?

Yeah, I kinda thought you might be. I think there are numerous INTP's here on the forum.
I wish I could say that I have cracked the INTP code...nope, not yet.

Yes, I would say that most all INTP's are like this to some degree and also commonly get labeled ADD along with a few other labels.

I would recommend to simply use the labels and the characteristics ascribed to them to become more self-aware of your strengths and deficiencies and learn how to overcome them. It sounds like you are already doing that.
That's great! Keep sharing your insights here, please.

Resist accepting a label as your "identity." There's another thread on the forum that discusses that situation.

Struggling to execute the many ideas and insights that these types have is a pretty common occurrence, along with tidyness, engaging in small talk, and more.

Questions dealing with the INTP type are probably the most common on "Quora." But, let me warn you learning through the questions and answers there can be enlightening, but also an "action faking time sucking black hole" That's a confession.

 

[Bry1975]

Hi,

just wanted to mention that low levels of dopamine can mean low motivation, ambition some people are actually born with low levels of dopamine, it's actually quite an interesting and complex subject.

Regs

Bry

 

[WildFlower]

OR they are / were meth users :|

 

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[Runum]

Is Rod Serling around here somewhere?

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzlG28B-R8Y[/ame]

 

[Russ H]

It's deja vu all over again! :smx4:

-Russ H.

 

[Russ H]

It's deja vu all over again! :smx4: :smx4:

-Russ H.

 

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[JayKim]

I'd like to know also what is the point? Maybe that we need people just born a certain way? Like the quote "Be open minded to other peoples interests, our everyday lives are possible because of the labor of others." I think it means people doing what may seem mundane to someone else and that they must lack motivation but maybe it is what that person is meant to do and equally important loves to do is happy doing it. I would like to hear more Bry.

 

[Bry1975]

Hi there,

Actually Dopamine can often be reduced significantly if you're on anxiety medication or valium. I know when I was prescribed Seroxat and Valium my motivational levels dropped way way down.


I just this would be a good post to place, perhaps maybe not.

Regs

Bry

 

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[PaulRobert]

Is there some kind of lesson tied to this? :huh2:

 

[Runum]

Are you leading up to posting links to your online pharmacy that just happens to provide those specific items? Perhaps it's a language barrier, you aren't making much sense.

 

[andviv]

ok, I'll bite....

How can I increase my levels of dopamine?

How do I know if the levels are too low/high?

how can I alter this so I have more motivation?

 

[Salinger]

ok, I'll bite....

How can I increase my levels of dopamine?

How do I know if the levels are too low/high?

how can I alter this so I have more motivation?

Well, you could drink a beer. Alcohol increases dopamine levels, at least temporarily. That's why, when you're out having drinks with friends, you come up with those great, ambitious ideas. :cheers:

Too bad follow through and execution are not so good when you're drinking.

 

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[Jonleehacker]

I actually think this is an excellent topic.

Recently, due to some health problems, I had to be on a very restricted diet: lots of juices, no carbs or meat.

Much to my surprise (I figured it would be an awful experience) not only did I experience having more energy, but I had a much more positive and motivated state of mind.

It was actually very enlightening and shocking to see how big of a difference in my mood and motivation resulted from changes in my diet.

 

[andviv]

Recently, due to some health problems, I had to be on a very restricted diet: lots of juices, no carbs or meat.

Jon, no carbs or meat? you? you are going to disappear! jk

so, seriously, what is your new diet then?

 

[Runum]

Nope I don't have an online pharmacy, just thought it would be a good post.

Shouldn't of bothered.

The topic may be relevant and timely. The initial delivery was suspect. You just pitched out a random statement without any facts or other input. It was as if you were baiting someone to ask questions so you could promote your wares.

I have read your stuff on some of the other forums(watch forums) and you don't come off as random there. Why seem like it here? Just trying to find a groove and fit in?

 

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