Jokes, Insults, Disrespect and More

[AroundTheWorld]

This is the internet and an internet forum, not a country club. Holding an entire group of people (or me) accountable to the words of another person is asinine and frankly naive - and this is directed not at one person, but everyone.

I agree!! we can only hold one person accountable - and that is ourselves.

You can go away, and feel ostracized.
Or you can hang in there,
and learn from the interchange.

That is why I brought this thread back up.
I think there is a great lesson here - - - and I didn't want it to go away.

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

I think you all know that if someone hung out here and repeatedly voiced a racist/sexist persona, they'd be gone in a heartbeat.

 

[AroundTheWorld]

MJ - - - I do know that, and that was part of my point in the post above....

Because I think that it was a misunderstanding viewed through lines in the sand.
And... I think most people here actually feel the same way about this issue.

I am hoping that people:

Erase the lines in the sand
Communicate through the issue
Then, get on with enjoying the discussions on this site.

 

[mtnman]

I stand by MJ's opinion, perspective, and how he chooses to run this house. I feel exactly the same way and believe that it's MORE than fair.

I'm kind of shocked sometimes at the reactions of people and how they are affected by simple messages. In fact, I made a post today and found myself in a situation where it may have offended people.

Was that my intent? Absolutely not. My aim is to treat everyone with the utmost respect, which is the least I can do, being that this place, and the people in it have changed my life. Whether it always works out that way is a different story. I can only do so much to stay neutral and regulate my natural personality, which includes sarcasm, and sometimes just generally being a smartass and always having a good time.

The point is, everyone has "their" own traits, and this is a forum. Not a sports bar, a meeting room, or a restaurant. We're not out having a beer, having a business meeting, or catching a meal together. We are typing on a screen.

Everyone should take into account that you can NOT hear people's voices, see their faces, and most of all, read their body language. A kinesthetic interaction would solve 99.5% of all the little tiff's around here.

So just keep in mind that often times, things aren't meant the way they come across.

And, everyone should feel so thankful to have a place like this that is moderated this well. If you're ever in doubt, feel free to check around and you'll see places you wouldn't last a second if you think think anything here is rude.

The Fastlane is the epitome of a well run forum. Thank You moderators, Boss, and everyone else that makes this community what it is.

 

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[cmartin371]

This is the internet and an internet forum, not a country club. Holding an entire group of people (or me) accountable to the words of another person is asinine and frankly naive - and this is directed not at one person, but everyone. We all are adults using a medium that easily is misconstrued and misinterpreted - we shouldn't need to have our ego's babysat when we immerse ourselves in a medium that is likely to attract dozens of other people with other backgrounds, experiences, and relationships.

Does it justify jokes done in bad taste? No. However, if you expect to run a business (or a forum) with 1000s of customers and expect NOT ONE of them to disappoint you with a complaint, comment or grievance, you're living in a dreamworld. Banning people for a joke that runs flat is not the answer. Banning people for repeated and outright insults, sexism and/or racism is.

Frankly, I'm shocked Fanocks2003 is still here as Jason disagrees with him on virtually everything -- and calls him on it -- yet, he is still here giving his opinion and maintaining his composure. I respect and admire him on that.

Good Post MJ! I for one have a twisted sense of humor and find something funny in almost anything. I have no problem making fun of myself as well. Is that bad? i don't know. Do I let it bother me? Hell no! Does it make me a bad person or have bad character? No! And to be honest I don't want to live in a world where we have to tip toe around what can be said, heard, seen...etc. It's part of my right to freedom.

I read a quote a long time ago (can't remember who it belongs to) but it changed my views on such topics. "If one stopped thinking about what others thought, said, and did, hardly anything would ever bother them again."

 

[Jeffs07]

I'm hesitant to share my opinion on this subject as I know I'm going to get berated, but it seems to me like an innocent joke; perhaps SOMEWHAT uncalled for but none the less harmless since he was obviously kidding. As entrepreneurs epically we should be much more thick skinned...

 

[cmartin371]

I'm hesitant to share my opinion on this subject as I know I'm going to get berated, but it seems to me like an innocent joke; perhaps SOMEWHAT uncalled for but none the less harmless since he was obviously kidding. As entrepreneurs epically we should be much more thick skinned...

This is what I am talking about when I mentioned the fact that you have to tip toe around everything you say. You should not be afraid to express your opinion. Everyone else has on the topic.

 

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[AroundTheWorld]

The point that ATW made that I think we all agree on as well is that we may have lost at least one valuable poster because of things that have been written. I'm not saying that person was justified in leaving (not that they need to justify it), but this forum is a tight-knit community to some degree, and we must learn as we go along..

It is sad if it can't be worked through. Often, it is working through something like this that strengthens and enhances a relationship.

What doesn't kill you (or a relationship) will make you (it) stronger.

 

[Bilgefisher]

Ive hesitated posting to this thread. That 2nd post in here was drug over. Thats my typical reaction to a joke that missed its mark.

I honestly believed the joke was a sarcastic interpretation made to make fun of people that make those types of jokes.

My take on the whole situation may be different from others. I come an Italian family on my mothers side. Jokes and joking around is actually tradition. If someone doesn't make fun of you or laugh at you to some degree, they probably don't like you. We openly call each other a bunch of WOPs. Heck if my mom hasn't called you a little shit, she probably doesn't like you. Amongst friends, I have been called cracker, white boy, white bread, and shorty. Ive called my friends darky, island boy, redneck, frenchy and others. Never found a problem with either. Ive told jokes on every race, religion, and creed. Especially my own. If anyone has been offended by them, I apologize and move on. I make note of it though. It helps me know the limits of whom I am talking to. I suppose if folks think less of me because of that, so be it. I know I'm a good person and if they can't see through my supposed fault, then really its their loss. Sounds kinda conceited I know, but if I tried to please everyone, then I would end up pleasing no one.


I think this was a good thread to bring out into the open. Every community has growing pains, even one as well moderated as this one.

I will say I slightly disagree with how it was initially handled. I think a simple PM would have solved this whole problem. Many people will feel backed into a corner when you publicly call them out. They feel the need to "fight back" or have resentment towards the person that called them out. If told privately of their mistake, it gives them a chance to apologize while still saving face. I agree there are many instances where immediate comment is necessary, I don't believe this is one of them. Wheelsrcool responded much better then most would.

Do I hold anything against either party, heck no. I respect both parties. A mistake has been learned from and thats all anyone can ask.

Normally I don't think these threads help forums, but on this forum its strangely different. The users of this forum are unique in the sense that almost everyone is very respectful and keep heated emotions out of their posts. There may be passion behind their words but they are usually well thought out and there is never name calling, bashing or trolling. I really appreciate that.

 

[Russ H]

I will say I slightly disagree with how it was initially handled. I think a simple PM would have solved this whole problem. Many people will feel backed into a corner when you publicly call them out. They feel the need to "fight back" or have resentment towards the person that called them out. If told privately of their mistake, it gives them a chance to apologize while still saving face. I agree there are many instances where immediate comment is necessary, I don't believe this is one of them. Wheelsrcool responded much better then most would.

I agree that Wheelsarecool responded extremely well. Probably a lot better, and with more grace and dignity (and tact) than I would have, were the situation reversed.

Since I am the "other party", Bilge, I want to apologize for behavior that you consider inappropriate.

When this comes up in the outside world, I typically wait for an opportunity where I can talk to the person in private, face to face (much more effective, with less room for misinterpretation).

But this situation was different.

This was a place where I'd not likely meet the person making the comments, at least within the next few months.

And their comments were forum related, not something at a cocktail party, or at the office.

So what to do?

Do I just handle this quietly via PM, and no one else knows what happened?

Or do I share my feelings with the community-- acknowledging that how I feel is probably not in the majority, but that I want to see how others here on the forums feel about the same issues/topic.

In other words, make this part of our discussions, instead of hiding it.

After agonizing over it, I did what I did.

Do I regret doing it?

No.

Would I have done it any differently?

Yeah.

If I were a better writer, I would have been able to better explain/express my feelings. I would have been able to convey how harmful this type of "joke" is to so many people, who will never, ever bring it up in public (they'll just smile or chuckle, so as not to hurt the other person's feelings).

I tried, but it's clear I didn't do a very good job.

For my shortcomings on this, I deeply apologize. The last thing I wanted to do was make someone feel defensive, or uncomfortable.

And I do appreciate MJ's wisdom in this. I see now that trying to make everyone on the forums try to be respectful of others' specific feelings is not very realistic (idealistic perhaps, but not realistic)

But I'd still like to make this an ongoing discussion. To continue sharing how we feel about things.

If we just do this via PM, the problem continues.

But if we discuss it out in the open, we learn from each other.

I don't expect to change the world.

But learning about others' views and feelings on this?

That would be a good thing, in my eyes.

-Russ H.

 

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[Yankees338]

I agree that Wheelsarecool responded extremely well. Probably a lot better, and with more grace and dignity (and tact) than I would have, were the situation reversed.

Since I am the "other party", Bilge, I want to apologize for behavior that you consider inappropriate.

When this comes up in the outside world, I typically wait for an opportunity where I can talk to the person in private, face to face (much more effective, with less room for misinterpretation). . .

. . .

-Russ H.

Russ, I'm glad you did what you did.

If I'd chosen to do anything about something like that, I most certainly would have done it via PM.

I didn't necessarily have a problem with what Wheels said, but I can understand why people could have.

You opened up my eyes to other views and ways of thinking, and for that I thank you.

(Rep+++)

 

[MsMoney]

I've just read this entire thread and I must say it is very interesting to me to see a variety of view points. I am encouraged by the strength in which ALL OF YOU are explaining your convictions & feelings. I really appreciate that.

One thing I've always worked on living by (& believe I've taught my daughters to as well) is that to look at the person making the comment/joke....more than likely it was not meant as a putdown or insult, but simply to make fun of the people that truly think that way. There isn't too much that rattles me, but I respect what RussH has shared & admired his honesty and courage! I also am impressed with how eloquently Wheels explained where he was at...rep++ to both of you!
Being a Blonde Woman, with 2 Native American daughters (one of which is gay!)....I believe I would probably be the poster child for ALOT of off color jokes....but the people that are malicious and have a need to be nasty are the ones to feel sorry for.

 

[Bilgefisher]

Since I am the "other party", Bilge, I want to apologize for behavior that you consider inappropriate.

Russ, I don't believe it was inappropriate to handle it that way. Doing what you feel is right is rarely inappropriate. Merely a suggestion for a different way to handle it in the future. Like yourself, sometimes I can be rather direct and come off harsher then I intend. I agree with your point 100% that it was good to bring this out in the open.

Also Russ, I will openly admit, that my post was slightly hypocritical in me not PMing you. I honestly thought back and forth on that as well. Since this post was started I figured we might as wear our opinions on our sleeve for this one.

Since this thread has started, I actually have a lot more respect for many folks on this forum. Our opinions may differ slightly on the subject matter, but life would be to damn boring if everyone agreed.

Being a Blonde Woman, with 2 Native American daughters (one of which is gay!)....I believe I would probably be the poster child for ALOT of off color jokes....but the people that are malicious and have a need to be nasty are the ones to feel sorry for.

There is the key right there. That fine line. Is the joke malicious, poorly thought out, or in just plain fun and teasing.

 

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[AroundTheWorld]

I think this was a good thread to bring out into the open. Every community has growing pains, even one as well moderated as this one.

I will say I slightly disagree with how it was initially handled. I think a simple PM would have solved this whole problem.

Another way to handle an issue such as this.....

Send a PM
Then, start a "generic" thread without highlighting a particular person or comment.

By doing that... you are direct with the person.
And, you still bring up an issue to the community that you feel is important.

 

[Russ H]

Excellent points, ATW.

Had I thought of that approach, I probably would have done it instead.

Saves face while also getting the issue out in the open.

I like that.

-Russ H.

 

[yveskleinsky]

ATW- you are so rational and calm. I have to say I really admire those qualities in you. Sure beats getting upset like I do over things. ...Maybe I should make a braclet that says WWATWD?

 

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[WheelsRCool]

Interesting thread this is, really interesting to view everyone's viewpoints...regarding this person who some think left, I hope you don't mean me, as I am still here I just haven't had much to post about in recent weeks is all, so I have been mostly lurking. If not me though, I was wondering who...? I hope my joke didn't drive anyone off the site...:nonod:

 

[AroundTheWorld]

ATW- you are so rational and calm. I have to say I really admire those qualities in you. Sure beats getting upset like I do over things. ...Maybe I should make a braclet that says WWATWD?

Hardly!!! Just ask my hubby. It is the last thing he would say about me.

Excellent points, ATW.

Had I thought of that approach, I probably would have done it instead.

Saves face while also getting the issue out in the open.

I like that.

-Russ H.

As soon as you have that second (and third and fourth) child - - - you will think this way a lot!

 

[AroundTheWorld]

A few weeks ago, I was at a Rodeo.
I enjoy Rodeo's, but have often found the sexist, and this one was one of the worst I have been too. The announcer was making horribly sexist comments.

After about 30 minutes, I heard a guy behind me say, "Man, this guy is sexist."

I turned around to see a group of about 15 teens sitting there - guys and girls - shaking their heads.

Well, it made me think of this thread. I wonder if each generation is leaving the -ism attitude farther and farther behind. Perhaps after another generation or two, the issue will really be behind us.

 

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[kurtyordy]

A few weeks ago, I was at a Rodeo.
I enjoy Rodeo's, but have often found the sexist, and this one was one of the worst I have been too. The announcer was making horribly sexist comments.

After about 30 minutes, I heard a guy behind me say, "Man, this guy is sexist."

I turned around to see a group of about 15 teens sitting there - guys and girls - shaking their heads.

Well, it made me think of this thread. I wonder if each generation is leaving the -ism attitude farther and farther behind. Perhaps after another generation or two, the issue will really be behind us.

I think each generation has its own ism. first racism, then sexism, I think next will be ageism, but not sure. Religiouism is a growing one as well, (yes this is my own word, it means making fun of someone because of their religion). By growing I mean that it is accepted as ok in the mainstream.

 

[Bilgefisher]

Of all the people in the audience that were upset about his comments, how many confronted him? There is no excuse for most comments, however many people change their tunes when either no one laughs at their jokes or folks confront them on those jokes.

 

[JesseO]

A joke is a joke, imho. Do you guys not like Robbin Williams, Eddie Murphy, Richard Pryor, and hundreds of others because they said something we all know is blatantly false, but has a humorous aspect to it? Honestly I find it hard to get offended by a <i>joke</i> as opposed to someone spitting in my face because I'm a guy, white, etc. I do believe there should be limits and boundaries but let's not go overboard. This is all coming from a guy whose nickname is Jesster for possibly obvious reasons...

 

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[Russ H]

Disclaimer in advance: Some on these forums do not appreciate it when I am direct. My apologies in advance. I am not trying to be self righteous or negative-- rather, I am trying to be very clear on an important point that I do not want misunderstood. And I apologize for the limits of my writing skills in this. I do wish I could make these points without offending others. I do try, but I do not always succeed.

Jesse-

How much do you know about Richard Pryor?

Have you ever heard his interview of the use of the "N" word, and why he stopped using it?

Speaking as a white male, I find it fascinating that ALL of the comments on this thread about "this is no big deal" come from white males.

Why do you suppose that is?

-Russ H.

 

[JesseO]

Jesse-

How much do you know about Richard Pryor?

Have you ever heard his interview of the use of the "N" word, and why he stopped using it?

Speaking as a white male, I find it fascinating that ALL of the comments on this thread about "this is no big deal" come from white males.

Why do you suppose that is?

-Russ H.

Being born in 1984, I doubt I know as much as some of you with more years under your belt. Yes, I saw the show about his trip to Africa and how there were no "niggas" there and why he stopped using that word. That's not the point. The issue here is sensitivity and why people are living with thier heads buried in the past and not living in the now. Living in the now, racism is a shame and people who hate based purely on color, race, religion, etc are plain and simple thick headed, raised poorly, or simply don't care what anyone else thinks. "Speaking as a white male, I find it fascinating that ALL of the comments on this thread about "this is no big deal" come from white males." Do you think that only white males are racist? I didn't think so, but please choose how you wish to be heard, Russ. There's a difference between being concerned, politically correct, and claiming some sort of statistic which makes no sense. I would invite you to look at why such things might bother you, and see what you can do to appreciate a <i>joke</i> for what it is, hate racism for what is it. I am anti-racism, but I also appreciate a good joke, even if it is against white guys. That's how I roll. If we want to make such an issue against this then maybe we should re-examine where we are all coming from....

Note: It strikes me as odd that you choose to throw demographics into your anti-demographic discussion......

 

[Russ H]

Being born in 1984, I doubt I know as much as some of you with more years under your belt.

Yes, I saw the show about his trip to Africa and how there were no "niggas" there and why he stopped using that word.

That's not the point.

The issue here is sensitivity and why people are living with thier heads buried in the past and not living in the now.

Living in the now, racism is a shame and people who hate based purely on color, race, religion, etc are plain and simple thick headed, raised poorly, or simply don't care what anyone else thinks.

"Speaking as a white male, I find it fascinating that ALL of the comments on this thread about "this is no big deal" come from white males."

Do you think that only white males are racist? I didn't think so, but please choose how you wish to be heard, Russ.

There's a difference between being concerned, politically correct, and claiming some sort of statistic which makes no sense. I would invite you to look at why such things might bother you, and see what you can do to appreciate a <i>joke</i> for what it is, hate racism for what is it.

I am anti-racism, but I also appreciate a good joke, even if it is against white guys. That's how I roll. If we want to make such an issue against this then maybe we should re-examine where we are all coming from....

Note: It strikes me as odd that you choose to throw demographics into your anti-demographic discussion......

Again, JesseO, I know I've offended you before, and had hoped that my statements would not be misconstrued.

(sigh) But they were.

As a mod, I'm tempted to just delete my comments and your follow up, but that kind of defeats the purpose of what I've tried to say throughout this thread:

Specifically, that what some people find funny, or inoffensive, may not be seen that way by others.

I do understand that POV that says, "You don't like my sense of humor, well F U". Believe me, I understand that. I hear it loud and clear. It's why I typically don't bring this topic up-- it's too easy to offend those who do the offending, and that's exactly the opposite of what I'm trying to do!

But again, it was my hope in bringing this up, in the first place, that I might be able to increase the awareness of some folks who have never thought about this before.

So for the person who had always thought certain things were funny all of a sudden looked at a few other viewpoints and said, "Wow, I had no idea". And that this new information caused them to reconsider their actions.

I'm not taking statistics, or demographics, or even saying that the only people who feel this way are old time racists/sexists/etc. Because I know in my own life, this is not true. I've met plenty of younger folks who make these comments, and see them as "no big deal".

I don't expect to change the world w/this thread. But this community has been so supportive of differing views-- and trying to understand the viewpoints of others-- that I risked bringing up a VERY- unpopular topic, in an effort to share some of my feelings and thoughts on this.

Again, apologies if this has offended you. That was not my intent.

As to your comments re demographics and statistics, I really don't know what you mean. Sorry if I'm being dense?

-Russ

 

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[unicon]

The general rule is there is no excuse for incivility.

The judgement of that incivility is the question.

What one writes is not about who is offended, it is about the author and his or her limitations.

What one writes is a matter of record, it is your credability and your weakness.

It is either growing or going in reverse.

What made this thread interesting was not the initial joke but the response to it.

Growing up is about being shocked if you had excellent parenting, layered shocking. I can relate to Russ's many points each of would be worthy of debate including the growth in a new demographic in California where mind expansion is prevalent. I had the privilege of also growing up in California and moving to a dumbing down enviornment (how is that for PC). There are worlds full of civil and learning behavior every minute of the day - other enviornments cannot concieve of this productive atmosphere (total consensus).

Friction is productivity and involves the faulty thinking of ones own judgements. Show me where I am wrong and I will learn. This venue is logic based and exposed more than one writers premature judgements.

Remember due diligence is the difference between fact and opinion, you can only build off of one.

I saw Richard Pryor on the Sunset Strip 30 years ago in a small club and I was shocked with what I heard, it was part of my layered shocking. Today I understand the motivation, the behavior, the damage, the enviornment, and the resolve of the comedian and I would be incapable of being shocked by that person today.

Human skills took centuries to learn, technical skills only took about 50 years and some overnight. The real danger is government telling you what you are thinking and telling you what your motivations are and then labeling you as a matter of record.

As long as you have a pencil and now the forum you can set the record straight instead of a court record, a credit record, or other bureaucratic record (Clint Eastwood with a pencil). This is called enforcement.

 

[SteveO]

Let me take a crack at deciphering your post unicon... :smxA:

It sounds like you are stating that the original post is simply a reflection on the poster based on his judgements. Since these thoughts are penciled into this forum, they are there for the rest of us to judge. But, these thoughts can be retracted or explained by followup posts.

Did I get it right? :banana:

 

[Russ H]

. . . As long as you have a pencil and now the forum you can set the record straight instead of a court record, a credit record, or other bureaucratic record (Clint Eastwood with a pencil). This is called enforcement.

I'm guessing you mean the "Dirty Harry/Cowboy" Clint Eastwood?

My first read was Clint Eastwood the Mayor, correcting the bureaucratic problems of Carmel.

Then it was Clint Eastwood the director, making statements in his movies to challege the Hollywood Bureaucracy/Status Quo.

Then I thought of Dirty Harry w/a pencil. Somehow, that image just didn't fit for me . . . :shrugs:

(any further elucidation is appreciated, unicon! )

-Russ H.

 

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[JesseO]

Russ, do you like the movie Blazing Saddles?

 

[Russ H]

Russ, do you like the movie Blazing Saddles?

Parts of it I find funny, others not. I loved riding the range w/the orchestral music playing in the background, and then he passes by the orchestra-- right out there in the middle of the desert!

The farting scene is, of course, probably the most well known. As I get older (and farting becomes less of a novelty and more of an . . um . . . fact of life?), the scene isn't quite as hilarious.

Sure found it funny when I was younger, though!

I never did find the N stuff funny in Blazing Saddles. Maybe it was that as a white boy growing up in Detroit in the 1960s, you could get killed for using the N word in the wrong place. Who knows?

As a kid, I saw a lot of what black folks around me were going through-- parts of Detroit were very anti-black (there's a reason there were huge race riots there in 1968)-- and I saw this same hatred as I got older, not just in Michigan, but throughout the US south, and in parts of Europe as well.

Out here in CA, and places in the Southwest, the practice of bigotry is not as blatant. It's much more subtle, and discreet. But it's still around.

And I do understand what Mel Brooks was doing in Blazing Saddles. He likes to spotlight and satirize things that are socially relevant-- he's a social observer of the times (as are many comedians). So much of Blazing Saddles is exactly that-- social observation and satirizing stereotypes, circa the early 1970s. I think it's brilliant.

But parts of it still make me uncomfortable.

Having seen the real thing happen a few blocks away from my house (whites and blacks killing each other just b/c their skins are different colors), the satire is a bit lost on me.

*******

Lots of movies lose their funniness over time, as society and culture changes. As has been mentioned in this thread, lots of things that had sexual put downs, race-put downs, gay put downs, etc were popular/stylish 20-60 years ago. Nowadays, not so much.

I once loved the Gene Wilder/Richard Pryor movie Silver Streak. Now, it just looks so dated to me.

Someone once told me tastes change over time. I'm not sure if it's age, or life experience, or cultural changes (or all 3), but I'd have to agree-- there are movies I watched 20 years ago that I thought were really, really great (Bucakaroo Banzai, one example). And watching it nowadays, I just can't see what I was so jazzed about.

Some movies, like Princess Bride, I found funny at first and still feel that way.

I suppose some movies stand the test of time (like Holiday Inn, or Miracle on 42nd St), and others do not . I've really never thought about this before, Jesse, so I'm sorry, I don't have ready answers.

But I do appreciate your asking this. It's brought up some interesting thoughts.

-Russ H.