Is marriage an archaic and 'scripted' ideology?

[SebastianSkinner]

Hi All,

Something I have been thinking about internally for a while is the idea of marriage and whether or not it is worth it in today's society (I am speaking from a 1st world western country).

I do think that my upbringing has had effected my viewpoints on the matter (coming from a family who's parents divorced when I was young and it being a fairly bitter process for both parents).

Ultimately, from looking into the statistics with basically 1 in 2 marriages ending in divorce along with most people identifying as agnostic or atheist is there any need for the idealism of marriage anymore? The only reason I can see it being more prevalent is if you want children or for legal and tax reasons etc.

If a marriage is to go south it can have crippling effects on an individual mentally and financially. I was wondering what others views are on it and if they see the concept of marriage as now outdated as well? I understand that this is looking at it with a very pessimistic viewpoint, glass half empty stance if you will.

Also I do believe that their is a societal expectation from friends and family that by a certain age you should be married, 2.5 kids, settled down with a fat mortgage along with other liabilities etc. However, by going against this assertion it can open up a lot of time, freedom and ultimately allow you to take more risks in pursuit of business endeavours.

Thoughts on this and whether you view it as a 'scripted' idealism would be interesting.

Best,

S

 

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[pmaloneus]

Expectations on marriage is scripted, not marriage itself. Greatest life and financial decision I’ve ever made

 

[Success Soldier]

Hi All,

Something I have been thinking about internally for a while is the idea of marriage and whether or not it is worth it in today's society (I am speaking from a 1st world western country).

I do think that my upbringing has had effected my viewpoints on the matter (coming from a family who's parents divorced when I was young and it being a fairly bitter process for both parents).

Ultimately, from looking into the statistics with basically 1 in 2 marriages ending in divorce along with most people identifying as agnostic or atheist is there any need for the idealism of marriage anymore? The only reason I can see it being more prevalent is if you want children or for legal and tax reasons etc.

If a marriage is to go south it can have crippling effects on an individual mentally and financially. I was wondering what others views are on it and if they see the concept of marriage as now outdated as well? I understand that this is looking at it with a very pessimistic viewpoint, glass half empty stance if you will.

Also I do believe that their is a societal expectation from friends and family that by a certain age you should be married, 2.5 kids, settled down with a fat mortgage along with other liabilities etc. However, by going against this assertion it can open up a lot of time, freedom and ultimately allow you to take more risks in pursuit of business endeavours.

Thoughts on this and whether you view it as a 'scripted' idealism would be interesting.

Best,

S

Hi Sebastian. Hope you are doing great!

Here is my point of view (Married guy)

What is marriage good for for me?


I don't know if you have kids or not. I do have 2 and here is what this did for me. Having kids makes me hustle and work harder and makes me want to be successful. I can't explain it, but if it was just me I would sit on the couch and play games all day...I would make enough to take care of myself and that's it. Now I have something to work for and something to build. You might ask how this ties in to marriage?

Well I want my kids to have a good "normal" family, which I never had. That also means that we ALL have the same last names. I might be still a bit old fashioned but marriage means something to me...it means you have made your choice and COMMITTED! It shows the kids that we truly are serious about this thing called family (Not saying you cant be serious if you aint married).

All relationships (married or not) have their ups and downs...if I am married I will more likely stick with it because I gave my word and again I committed!

Marriages today are ending a lot because people don't know what they want, they are easily offended, grass is always greener on the other side, have no more respect to others,...there are many different reasons, but if you find the right person who will support you and push you forward you can be a strong POWER COUPLE.

Don't ever look at statistic and compare yourself to the general statistic. Hei also a funny stat: top 10% of the people have 77% of the money. Do you want to put yourself in the other 90% just because it's a statistic? OF COURSE NOT!

And also in my part of the world, if you are in a relationship for more then 3 years it's basically the same as getting married financial wise and all so you lose half either way if you split

Hope it helps in any way

 

[alexkuzmov]

Hi All,

Something I have been thinking about internally for a while is the idea of marriage and whether or not it is worth it in today's society (I am speaking from a 1st world western country).

I do think that my upbringing has had effected my viewpoints on the matter (coming from a family who's parents divorced when I was young and it being a fairly bitter process for both parents).

Ultimately, from looking into the statistics with basically 1 in 2 marriages ending in divorce along with most people identifying as agnostic or atheist is there any need for the idealism of marriage anymore? The only reason I can see it being more prevalent is if you want children or for legal and tax reasons etc.

If a marriage is to go south it can have crippling effects on an individual mentally and financially. I was wondering what others views are on it and if they see the concept of marriage as now outdated as well? I understand that this is looking at it with a very pessimistic viewpoint, glass half empty stance if you will.

Also I do believe that their is a societal expectation from friends and family that by a certain age you should be married, 2.5 kids, settled down with a fat mortgage along with other liabilities etc. However, by going against this assertion it can open up a lot of time, freedom and ultimately allow you to take more risks in pursuit of business endeavours.

Thoughts on this and whether you view it as a 'scripted' idealism would be interesting.

Best,

S

Mariage probably isnt part of scripted ideology.

What it is though is a contract between two people, legalized by the state.
If you want to risk being mangled by the divorce machine, then at least look into prenups, postnups, consult with a family lawyer and so on.
Be aware of the risks and then make up your own mind.

We all know that marriage and kids are two separate things both of which are down to personal choice.

 

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[Kak]

If 50 percent of marriages fail, you barely have to be better than average at marriage to not get divorced. Average is pretty much devoid of effort at this point... Therefore, I like the odds for anyone that will put in effort.

How many of you want to be average at anything you do? This is a forum of achievement centered mentality.

 

[Guest-5ty5s4]

If 50 percent of marriages fail, you barely have to be better than average at marriage to not get divorced. Average is pretty much devoid of effort at this point... Therefore, I like the odds for anyone that will put in effort.

How many of you want to be average at anything you do? This is a forum of achievement centered mentality.

This is a good point.

Keep in mind, you can have above-average fun in your marriage, find an above-average partner, and live an above-average lifestyle

 

[Kak]

I tackled this concept of "average" on the show today. Thanks @SebastianSkinner for the inspiration. And no, it's not about marriage.

Libsyn Directory

directory.libsyn.com

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

The forum had a long, long discussion on this some years back.

NOTABLE! - Preserving Wealth, My #1 Tip. Don't Get Married! (Or Maybe You Should?)

Quick credibility explanation. The reason you should listen to me is because I have been coaching men for the last 10 years on women and relationships. Many men over 40 have been severely damaged by a financial catastrophe that can be EASILY avoided. This goes for women also, I'm not posting...

www.thefastlaneforum.com

 

[Johnny boy]

I like marriage if I get more than 2 wives and bulletproof prenups with "getting fat" clauses.

 

[SebastianSkinner]

If 50 percent of marriages fail, you barely have to be better than average at marriage to not get divorced. Average is pretty much devoid of effort at this point... Therefore, I like the odds for anyone that will put in effort.

How many of you want to be average at anything you do? This is a forum of achievement centered mentality.

Hi,

Thanks everyone for your responses.

I'm not against marriage and I think I didn't make my point clear in some ways. Not saying you cannot have a successful long term partnership. I just wonder why it still has to be cemented in the traditional sense with so many people not being religious. You can still be loyal and faithful to someone without the law / church becoming involved was all.

Kak - I agree, as I noted previously I knew that I was coming at this from a very pessimistic viewpoint. I am aware of many successful long term relationships as well. I think the key is not to rush settling down if pursuing it and being vigilant on selecting a partner as marriage etc should be viewed as life long commitment. As you also state any good relationship takes effort and work!

Thanks.

S

 

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[Kak]

I just wonder why it still has to be cemented in the traditional sense with so many people not being religious.

This, in my opinion, is the big question...

To me, marriage was a religious union between my wife and I. The fact that I had to register it with the government to “legitimize” it, actually pissed me off. Legitimacy isn’t something decided by government, it is a contract between two people to become a family. Define it how you will. Last names, where you'll live, how many kids if any, whatever.

I can’t get in the head of someone who “just goes to the courthouse” to make it official. The concept of literally paying the government to recognize such a union is absurd to me. Yet, we did it, because that is what you do. That doesn’t mean it wasn’t ridiculous.

Think about 500 years ago what marriage meant... You and your wife just decided to get together with friends and family and make a commitment to one another. Done.

You and significant other should be the authority of if you are married or not, not the government, but alas, people lick boot.

 

[Guest-5ty5s4]

Hi,

Thanks everyone for your responses.

I'm not against marriage and I think I didn't make my point clear in some ways. Not saying you cannot have a successful long term partnership. I just wonder why it still has to be cemented in the traditional sense with so many people not being religious. You can still be loyal and faithful to someone without the law / church becoming involved was all.

Kak - I agree, as I noted previously I knew that I was coming at this from a very pessimistic viewpoint. I am aware of many successful long term relationships as well. I think the key is not to rush settling down if pursuing it and being vigilant on selecting a partner as marriage etc should be viewed as life long commitment. As you also state any good relationship takes effort and work!

Thanks.

S

I agree with you on this actually, but it could devolve into something political (lol I'm sorry).

The main issue here is that marriage is a personal, spiritual, individual decision and relationship. It means to you what it means to you.

But for some reason, it's also built into the legal system.

That part to me makes no friggin' sense.

 

[EternalStudent]

Hi All,

Something I have been thinking about internally for a while is the idea of marriage and whether or not it is worth it in today's society (I am speaking from a 1st world western country).

I do think that my upbringing has had effected my viewpoints on the matter (coming from a family who's parents divorced when I was young and it being a fairly bitter process for both parents).

Ultimately, from looking into the statistics with basically 1 in 2 marriages ending in divorce along with most people identifying as agnostic or atheist is there any need for the idealism of marriage anymore? The only reason I can see it being more prevalent is if you want children or for legal and tax reasons etc.

If a marriage is to go south it can have crippling effects on an individual mentally and financially. I was wondering what others views are on it and if they see the concept of marriage as now outdated as well? I understand that this is looking at it with a very pessimistic viewpoint, glass half empty stance if you will.

Also I do believe that their is a societal expectation from friends and family that by a certain age you should be married, 2.5 kids, settled down with a fat mortgage along with other liabilities etc. However, by going against this assertion it can open up a lot of time, freedom and ultimately allow you to take more risks in pursuit of business endeavours.

Thoughts on this and whether you view it as a 'scripted' idealism would be interesting.

Best,

S

This is an overlooked example of the 80/20 rule in action... The statistic is misleading since the majority of divorces are done by a minority of people.
Marriage means different things to different people. For me it was about demonstrating my devotion to my wife (she is more into the marriage stuff than me). For others it might be social pressure or having a kid on the way, which aren't necessarily the best reasons to tie the knot and would have a higher chance in ending in divorce.

(Not that divorce is always a bad thing)

 

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[Guest-5ty5s4]

This is an overlooked example of the 80/20 rule in action... The statistic is misleading since the majority of divorces are done by a minority of people.
Marriage means different things to different people. For me it was about demonstrating my devotion to my wife (she is more into the marriage stuff than me). For others it might be social pressure or having a kid on the way, which aren't necessarily the best reasons to tie the knot and would have a higher chance in ending in divorce.

(Not that divorce is always a bad thing)

Oh yes this is a good point and I want to add as an example for you, my aunt who has had 7 (maybe 8?) husbands.

She gets divorced all the time.

My grandpa couldn’t go to her last wedding and he told her:

“Don’t worry, I’ll catch the next one.”

 

[Xeon]

Marriage is the ultimate scripted mindset (second only to 9-5 jobs), with the law in favor of the women. You marry, you lose.

 

[Mattie]

Hi All,

Something I have been thinking about internally for a while is the idea of marriage and whether or not it is worth it in today's society (I am speaking from a 1st world western country).

I do think that my upbringing has had effected my viewpoints on the matter (coming from a family who's parents divorced when I was young and it being a fairly bitter process for both parents).

Ultimately, from looking into the statistics with basically 1 in 2 marriages ending in divorce along with most people identifying as agnostic or atheist is there any need for the idealism of marriage anymore? The only reason I can see it being more prevalent is if you want children or for legal and tax reasons etc.

If a marriage is to go south it can have crippling effects on an individual mentally and financially. I was wondering what others views are on it and if they see the concept of marriage as now outdated as well? I understand that this is looking at it with a very pessimistic viewpoint, glass half empty stance if you will.

Also I do believe that their is a societal expectation from friends and family that by a certain age you should be married, 2.5 kids, settled down with a fat mortgage along with other liabilities etc. However, by going against this assertion it can open up a lot of time, freedom and ultimately allow you to take more risks in pursuit of business endeavours.

Thoughts on this and whether you view it as a 'scripted' idealism would be interesting.

Best,

S

I believe people should not get married until there a bit more mature, pretty much have the growth mindset, and willing to do the inner work. If not, there's not point in getting married. Today I know many women don't need to get married. The Younger Crowd in some groups have the ideology they don't need too. I think some of it I have witnessed myself on social media and more conditioning of peers. The need to break out of the old system of the woman getting married. The walking marriage as they put in front of me. I believe you can have all kinds of belief systems about relationships. The world is quite diversified by culture, country, religion, and basically the family, community, and culture find acceptable in their small society.

 

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[PapaGang]

Yes it is.
Next thread.

 

[PapaGang]

If 50 percent of marriages fail, you barely have to be better than average at marriage to not get divorced. Average is pretty much devoid of effort at this point... Therefore, I like the odds for anyone that will put in effort.

How many of you want to be average at anything you do? This is a forum of achievement centered mentality.

I told someone once that my 20-year marriage wasn't a triumph of love.
It was a triumph of will.

 

[Christopher104]

Hi All,

Something I have been thinking about internally for a while is the idea of marriage and whether or not it is worth it in today's society (I am speaking from a 1st world western country).

I do think that my upbringing has had effected my viewpoints on the matter (coming from a family who's parents divorced when I was young and it being a fairly bitter process for both parents).

Ultimately, from looking into the statistics with basically 1 in 2 marriages ending in divorce along with most people identifying as agnostic or atheist is there any need for the idealism of marriage anymore? The only reason I can see it being more prevalent is if you want children or for legal and tax reasons etc.

If a marriage is to go south it can have crippling effects on an individual mentally and financially. I was wondering what others views are on it and if they see the concept of marriage as now outdated as well? I understand that this is looking at it with a very pessimistic viewpoint, glass half empty stance if you will.

Also I do believe that their is a societal expectation from friends and family that by a certain age you should be married, 2.5 kids, settled down with a fat mortgage along with other liabilities etc. However, by going against this assertion it can open up a lot of time, freedom and ultimately allow you to take more risks in pursuit of business endeavours.

Thoughts on this and whether you view it as a 'scripted' idealism would be interesting.

Best,

S

There are ways of protecting yourself from divorce rape. Just talk to a lawyer and they'll tell you your options.

 

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[Jon L]

the 50% of marriages statistic isn't the full story. Here's another statistic for you:

2/3 of the people that get married, stay married for life. Combine that with Kak's statement above about being above average, and those are pretty decent odds.

the 50% of marriages things comes from the fact that some people marry more than once. Some, several times.

 

[Deleted50669]

I have never been married, so my opinion is based on observation only.

I see marriage as a massive risk. Most people who get married know only the tip of the ice-burg about the intricacies of their partner's personality, goals, triggers, vulnerabilities, etc. I could spend time with the same person without the legal bindings, and absolve myself from this risk. Anyone who gets married for financial benefit probably isn't getting married for a very good reason. I think another factor is many people get married before they are psychologically mature, which leads poor selection of partner, inability to resolve even minor disputes without it blowing up into an ego war, and inability to be selfless towards a partner. I personally appreciate that I can meet a girl, have fun, and never speak to her again, and I'm sure she does too, because ultimately what people want is intimacy and humor, not restriction, repetition, and rules (have fun convincing a spouse to move to another state just because you want to for an opportunity, you marry into social circles you don't want to be in also).

 

[sa_ill]

First, let us define what marriage is.
Marriage is a legal agreement that binds a couple and involves certain fine prints in the agreement.

Why was the institution of marriage invented?
The institution of marriage exists to ensure the well-being of the offspring that the couple produce. It is a way for society to ensure the well being of kids, as simple as that. It is a system that ensures that men don't freely spread their seed without responsibility.

Is marriage required really?
No. It isn't. If two consenting adults agree among themselves to live together and bare children together, noone is liable to stop them. Two people have consented among themselves and that is all that is required.

What does marriage mean in the modern day world?
Tax benefits: Government wants you to get married so that you can avail their services. This is income for them.

Legal liability: If either party does some wrong, they have a legal safety net to ensure they aren't exploited.

But the real reason: Propagation of religion. Marriage in the modern day world (especially in Abrahamic religions like Christianity, Islam and Judaism) is mostly to propagate religion. Why? Let me explain.

In Abrahamic religions, you are pronounced as "married" by a central authority i.e. the priest of a church etc. He literally says "I now declare you husband and wife." So, marriage in the Western world and Islamic world is mainly to propagate religion, because eventually you are bowing down to the authority of the religion. And Abrahamic religions are Central in nature. They practice their power centrally. A central nature means that their only purpose is propagation for domination.

In Eastern (Sanatana Dharma) traditions like those of Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, Sikhism, the priest only acts as the coach who facilitates the process. It is the couple who actually are supposed to do the process of getting married, and they pronounce themselves as married. Only then are they considered married, because they themselves did the procedure amongst themselves to get married. For example, in Hinduism, the couple takes seven rounds of a bonfire along with some other rituals which only involves the two people getting married. The priest is only telling them what to do, but the priest himself isn't a part of the rituals. This shows the decentralised nature of Eastern traditions belonging to the Sanatana Dharma. A decentralised nature means that these religions don't hold power centrally, and they aren't there to propagate their religion like the Abrahamic religions. The Eastern traditions aren't meant to dominate, but are meant to liberate, because everything is decentralised and solely based on the actions of the seeker.

The East merely copied the West by making marriage legal because of rampant conversions by Evangelical and Islamic missionaries, racism, colonialism and military domination. Plus, with the advent of Western institutions in the eastern world, it only made sense to make marriage legally binding. Divorces never occurred in the past, they only happened when marriages became legal.

How did I get married?
I simply told my girlfriend "You are now my wife." She agreed without hesitation. I.e., I got her consent.
I announced the news to my family saying "this is my wife." My grandmother facilitated the rituals to be performed, and we performed them as she advised in our house i.e. taking rounds of the bonfire with a stole tied to both of us. We then poured offerings in the fire and pronounced ourselves as husband and wife. Society accepted us as married. There was no central authority like in Abrahamic religions. We have no legal binding or agreement. I work and she takes care of the house. Everything I own I pledge to her. All the money (after investments, paying debt etc.) I make I simply hand over to her, and she manages it the way she sees fit i.e. for managing the house, social obligations etc.

 

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[SEBASTlAN]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_dGpR_aAao

 

[SebastianSkinner]

the 50% of marriages statistic isn't the full story. Here's another statistic for you:

2/3 of the people that get married, stay married for life. Combine that with Kak's statement above about being above average, and those are pretty decent odds.

the 50% of marriages things comes from the fact that some people marry more than once. Some, several times.

Interesting point but that is looking at it with a sweeping generalisation with the view that all of those marriages are happy and fulfilled.

I’m sure there are lots of marriages that are just for show. Sexless no intimacy or companionship etc. Sleep in different rooms and basically be room mates.

 

[Kevin88660]

Hi All,

Something I have been thinking about internally for a while is the idea of marriage and whether or not it is worth it in today's society (I am speaking from a 1st world western country).

I do think that my upbringing has had effected my viewpoints on the matter (coming from a family who's parents divorced when I was young and it being a fairly bitter process for both parents).

Ultimately, from looking into the statistics with basically 1 in 2 marriages ending in divorce along with most people identifying as agnostic or atheist is there any need for the idealism of marriage anymore? The only reason I can see it being more prevalent is if you want children or for legal and tax reasons etc.

If a marriage is to go south it can have crippling effects on an individual mentally and financially. I was wondering what others views are on it and if they see the concept of marriage as now outdated as well? I understand that this is looking at it with a very pessimistic viewpoint, glass half empty stance if you will.

Also I do believe that their is a societal expectation from friends and family that by a certain age you should be married, 2.5 kids, settled down with a fat mortgage along with other liabilities etc. However, by going against this assertion it can open up a lot of time, freedom and ultimately allow you to take more risks in pursuit of business endeavours.

Thoughts on this and whether you view it as a 'scripted' idealism would be interesting.

Best,

S

I think it depends on if you want to have children.

Living with a female buddy for the rest of your life for the sake of doing so makes no sense to me.

There are people who always get into relationship and cannot be alone. Marriage is a natural outcome. I think more women than men long for marriage.

But for the rest who need a “why?” Children could be a good answer.

Why children? It has been discussed in another thread. For extra assurance at old age? A legacy? Think of you at age 70 who just had a fall during to failing vision. Need a helpline? How do you write your will at age 76? Give all to your nephew?

A lot of downside risk are told from people’s own selfish perspective. Men will tell you about divorce rapes. Women will tell you it is their bum husband playing computer games at home.

Be legally savy. Keep your mouth about what you own in foreign countries and digitally, even when you are just dating. Don’t brag about your stock portfolio. Just in case you decide to marry her one day. Avoid dating accountant and lawyer. Don’t find a Chess Master when you are just an intermediate player in this game.

 

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[RemySheppard]

Get Married.

Have at least 8 children.

 

[Beerbread]

I'm indifferent to marriage, but if my spouse and I were to get assets together, I would get married just so there wouldn't be WWIII in dividing things. This book is pretty good:

If You're In My Office, It's Already Too Late: A Divorce Lawyer's Guide to Staying Together by James J. Sexton

You can find a couple of videos on YouTube talking about it, but he explains that marriage is a business contract and if you guys aren't meeting the terms of the contract, then it's a fair break. It acknowledges that marriages don't last forever but the end shouldn't be ugly. He recommends to check in on the marriage every 7 years to see if you guys are still happy together.

I like that approach, because when my parents divorced, they both had their own problems (mental and physical,) I never understood how you could be vicious to someone who you used to say, "I love you," to. I think it's also important to find a partner who is logical in that regard when doing what Sexton suggests (because some people are flat out stupid.)

 

[Lyinx]

Get Married.

Have at least 8 children.

and (obviously? ) not have a lot of time to write answers on forums

 

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[Lyinx]

my take on it?

if you ever want to have children, then definitely get married (when I say married, I mean actually married FOR LIFE, not this bs lets try it an hope it works out stuff)

If you have children, you owe it to them to give them a stable family life. end of story. after you have children, it's no longer about yourself, it becomes all about the children.

 

[Guest-5ty5s4]

my take on it?

if you ever want to have children, then definitely get married (when I say married, I mean actually married FOR LIFE, not this bs lets try it an hope it works out stuff)

If you have children, you owe it to them to give them a stable family life. end of story. after you have children, it's no longer about yourself, it becomes all about the children.

Oh yeah, marriage should always be for life. If you have any question at all, don't get married. Just like having kids. If you're unsure, the answer is no.