How is coding a fast lane venture?

[jmusic]

Thank you all for the input, this actually confirms a lot of the issues I had with the "learn to code!!" crowd.

I do want to do something with my life and just keep spinning my wheels in the "want want want" phase. I was ready to blindly start coding and it just felt like yet another action with absolutely no goal in mind.

For me it was a way to move forward that, at worst, would lead to a solid job. I decided on a bootcamp, because I was able to use military benefits to get some money coming in instead of being unemployed at home.

 

[James Orman]

Coding needs to be combined with another topic to become a useful product.

For example coding and art becomes games.
Coding and audio becomes a digital music studio.
Coding and driving became Uber.

Just learning to code to become someone elses wage slave is a terrible idea. You came to this site to escape the rat race permanently.

 

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[allen0879]

Meaningless culture and micromanagement pissed me off a lot in most jobs. Also them treating you like you are disposable. Same pay regardless sounds like a communist system to me.

Most jobs Ive worked at had poor management. I would have learned a lot more living in my mother's basement and focusing on learning and business.

If jobs gave me a percentage ownership of product I would have stayed. Otherwise Im forced to do entrepreneurship for a chance at any real freedom of time and wealth.

Reading about any major success the people sacrificed what they could so they could have 100% time focused onto their business. Examples are Tim Sweeney of Epic Games, Paul Mitchell, Victor Pride, Stallone and MJ DeMarco. MJ himself quit so he could focus 100%. If you read his book he barely had enough for a month of rent when he started. Freedom of time and a singular focus appears to be the theme here.

@MJ DeMarco 's fastlane business idea came from working in a limo company!!

 

[DeletedUser0287]

I see where you're coming from. This seems like survivorship bias to me.

For every one person who has "made it" by backing themselves into a corner and "making shit happen", I know of 100 more that crashed and burned; some needing therapy to come out of the other side.

This mentality is at the core of what Alexis Ohanian calls hustle porn.

I personally have backed myself into a corner 3 times with the intention of motivating myself into doing something incredible. It didn't work for me, personally.

It was only when I gave myself permission to have a job that real growth started to happen, and real big business opportunities presented themselves.

I would suggest that you look for success stories that are counter to the narrative of backing oneself into a corner. The story of DHH and Jason Fried, for example, comes to mind.

What do you mean by permission to have a job?

I don't think I'm a good example to validate your point.

I wouldn't be where I am today if it weren't for my job.

I thought this forum was beyond the old "jobs are bad" ideology, a sentiment that seems so 2010.

A job is very much a part of the process, either experiential or for highlighting opportunities in the marketplace. My only issue with a job is using it to anchor your wealth plan. Since most people don't have access to "ground floor" startup job opportunities (where better math exists) the mathematical variables simply don't work for the average person. Moreover, I think most young people need a job to get a taste of the real world.

As a means to a Fastlane/Unscripted end, jobs are great.

Honestly, when I read your book. The “jobs are bad” vibe is exactly what I got.

Obviously with that mentality, it permanently ruined several years for me because that was what I and many others got from the book.

I think you should emphasize much more that a job is part of the process. It would have been a load more helpful and would probably be in a different spot, if I wasn’t job hating for several years.

 

[AppMan]

So many threads are people rushing to learn code. But why?

Because they try to copy web design firm that the author of TMF had in his book as a way to be a millionaire, in my personal opinion, web design and software development is not easy business and out of 10 maybe 1 succeed to create a real business and the rest either keep it as a side hassle or shutdown.

 

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[PizzaOnTheRoof]

@GrayCode

 

[jmusic]

Software is just an easy way for people to get started. But yeah if you're learning it just to build other people's products/software then that is not fastlane. Although I will take the odd programming job if it's big enough and my company is slow, I can change almost $200/hr because I have a certain skill level. So if I'm bored on a weekend and want to make an extra 4K over 3 days while my SASS business is operating in the background I'll take it

What kind of skillset do you have to be worth $200/hr?? I'm 65K salaried as an entry level React developer at the moment...

 

[bdb]

As someone who is following this closely on the forum, I've not seen this being said anywhere. Actually, it's the opposite. People who have had success because they know how to code are telling people they can't easily get a job on a bootcamp alone.

Do you have links to a specific place where someone says you can make $100k after a bootcamp + a few months of experience?

Also what's your experience hiring/getting hired in this space? Anyone who has done either knows that those lists of "requirements" (e.g. 5+ years of experience) are mostly guidelines, bordering on bullshit.



You're right on everything here, except the bolded part. Fastlane is a mindset, not a set of skills. For many people (not all people), being an adept programmer will be necessary to build a business at scale.

I feel like you misspoke, because later in your post you say that software engineering can be fastlane.

Did you mean to paint engineering in a bad light. Sounds like you had a bad experience, maybe...?



Most of the population are employees; same for copywriters, marketers, manufacturers, distributors and even importer/exporters. It takes a huge mental effort to be good at anything. Should we discourage people from learning anything, then?

In other words, what's your point?



A decent job? 1 to 2 years? It sounds like you're imposing your limiting beliefs on others.

I have been on both sides of the hiring table here. I have been hired with less than 1 year experience in software dev, with no experience writing production code at $120k.

On the other side, I've hired people who were right out of a 9-month intensive coding program for $85k, who were making $100k+ within their first year post-hire.

And, since I only focus on remote work, all my contacts have had experience getting fully remote jobs with a flexible schedule and benefits. Is that a just "decent" job to you? If so, have you ever had a shitty job driving people around, mopping floors or baking donuts at 4 AM?

Is it possible? Absolutely.

How common is it? I dunno, but I know a lot of people with the same experience as me and those I've hired.

Will it happen to everyone? No.



With respect, I find this advice very misguided, and your excerpt is being presented with the wrong context.

1. "Cheap" coders are going to cost you a ton if you know nothing about software. I've known a ton about software, and have wasted a lot of money working with people in these countries.
2. The days of hiring a third world programmer to write your app and make money are long gone. Back in 2009, you could sure as hell write some BS calculator app that had ads, generated revenue and then sold it for $1M. Those days are over, and the non-programmers are no longer infesting this space with crappy apps as the quality bar to be successful and iterate has dramatically increased since then.
3. The founders of WhatsApp did hire a developer in Russia...after knowing the ins and outs of developing software at Yahoo!. They were both computer/software engineers at Yahoo, which only furthers the point that you need to understand tech to found a successful tech company.

What's your experience in this area? It doesn't sound very comprehensive.

With my comments I'm trying to help people who think they can get fast results by going into coding for a few months, I'm trying to warn them so that they can be better prepared for whats coming if they go this route, as I was there years ago thinking that coding was the answer to my problems and it was just an extra tool under my belt, it can be a rewarding experience depending on your objectives but it can also be very frustrating and time consuming if you don't have clear goals.

It has bee thrown around countless times that you can get a high paying job after learning to code for a few months, use the search feature, it might have even been yourself who said it now that I remember due to your crass assumptions and way of debating my advice.

For the rest of the comments, you seem to think that your experience is the norm out there, and if someone else has a different more down to earth experience than earning 120k a year after less than 1 year of coding experience then it means that something is wrong with that person's abilities or some weird stuff is happening behind the scenes.

I have been on both sides of the hiring table here. I have been hired with less than 1 year experience in software dev, with no experience writing production code at $120k.

Yes you are impressive for earning 120k a year with less than 1 year of experience, that is not the norm in my experience working as a developer, let's move on dude.

 

[csalvato]

Seems like we agree after all. Though I never said that developing is overkill, depending on your goals it might be a better idea to learn other aspects of managing a business and delegate writing code to other cheaper developers that you can subcontract. My company employs awesome Indian devs every day so I got some firsthand experience here. If you decide to go into code then have in mind that it might get frustrating and time consuming, it's going to take some time for you to get good enough in order to create what you want and you just need to push through it.

Thanks for hashing that out with me. I think people who now come in and read this thread will have a better understanding of reality.

Regarding Indian devs, I’ve had the same experience. I work with two Indian devs every day and they produce top quality work. Just need to be good at understanding the good from the bad, which is very hard if you’re not technical at all.

If someone is non technical,but wants to start a tech company,they don’t need to learn to code if they find a great tech partner IMO. Finding and cultivating a great partnership is a whole skill set on its own that most people should learn anyway... but I suppose that’s a different convo.

 

[Devampre]

At first, many service based businesses will seem like another "job." The difference is that once you are able to afford to delegate parts of the day to day operation, you can begin to scale and free up more of your time.

Eventually, you could have a general manager that would oversee the day to day and you wouldn't have to be involved all that much.

 

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[James Orman]

Meaningless culture and micromanagement pissed me off a lot in most jobs. Also them treating you like you are disposable. Same pay regardless sounds like a communist system to me.

Most jobs Ive worked at had poor management. I would have learned a lot more living in my mother's basement and focusing on learning and business.

If jobs gave me a percentage ownership of product I would have stayed. Otherwise Im forced to do entrepreneurship for a chance at any real freedom of time and wealth.

Reading about any major success the people sacrificed what they could so they could have 100% time focused onto their business. Examples are Tim Sweeney of Epic Games, Paul Mitchell, Victor Pride, Stallone and MJ DeMarco. MJ himself quit so he could focus 100%. If you read his book he barely had enough for a month of rent when he started. Freedom of time and a singular focus appears to be the theme here.

 

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[James Orman]

So an eff this event doesnt matter?

I had a gun to my head I was so fed up of working a regular job and getting nowhere.

Regular jobs are built to exploit the masses. Most people say they hate their job. If they were rewarded properly they wouldnt be saying shit. It would be happy ever after for the entire planet.

 

[allen0879]

So an eff this event doesnt matter?

I had a gun to my head I was so fed up of working a regular job and getting nowhere.

Regular jobs are built to exploit the masses. Most people say they hate their job. If they were rewarded properly they wouldnt be saying shit. It would be happy ever after for the entire planet.

When I was in a shit job that I hated I remember reading this blog article by Mark Cuban: Success & Motivation – 2009 | blog maverick

I started changing my perspective and attitude and things started happening for me. I started focusing on providing as much value to others as I could, instead of focusing on my own selfish desires.

I also started telling myself that I wanted to soak in all of the shit jobs and experiences because when I look back one day, I'll have a great life story to tell my grandkids.

I once had a job picking weeds AFTER getting a college degree! It SUCKED, but when I changed my attitude from being an entitled little bitch because I thought I deserved more for having a college degree, to being the best, most efficient weed picker in the whole damn landscape group I started finding other opportunities in the world. Now I'm making 6-figures and working on starting my business.

People like to help other people that bust their a$$ to provide value for others and that have a good attitude while doing it.

EDIT: I've had way more than one shitty job. There were many

 

[James Orman]

Thats only good if they value. My experience is contrary they didn't care how much value I provided. I was treated as a commodity or a machine that is easily replaceable.

 

[allen0879]

Thats only good if they value. My experience is contrary they didn't care how much value I provided. I was treated as a commodity or a machine that is easily replaceable.

You don't have to stay at the same job. I didn't. Keep producing as much value as you can and looking for new opportunities. It's a big world out there.

Try to find an entry level job in an industry that you're interested in and become a learning machine.

If you can't get into the industry you want right away, keep trying new things and learning all you can.

There is always something interesting you can learn, you may just not be scratching deep enough. Keep scratching.

Even in a mind numbing job, I would study people. People are interesting and you'll always have to deal with them. Study the power dynamics, listen to conversations of others, the politics they play, facial expressions, and try to figure out what they are thinking. Get out of your own head and observe your environment.

Maybe you'll notice a problem that frustrates the hell out of everyone that you can start a business to solve?

"If you don't like how things are, change it! You're not a tree." --Jim Rohn

 

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[DeletedUser0287]

Coding is fastlane if it is for a fastlane venture. Coding for a job isn’t really. Although salaries for these big tech companies are actually pretty fastlane now. I read if you on top of the league it can be like 500k/yr.

With that said, I am learning to code because my fastlane requires it. But then I also realized it takes time to be good. I mean really good. The needs for my business actually requires me to be expert programmer.

It would even be hard for senior programmer to do what I’m doing.

By nature software scales better than any other type of business thus far.

 

[James Orman]

There are other great paths instead of putting countless hours into a job. You need freedom of time to develop your business.

For example creating savings then moving to a country where rent is very cheap.
Another is moving in with caring family or parents.
Another is getting a cheap camper or RV and be on the road.
Or even working that boring job then buying a cheap property.

Whatever it takes to kill housing costs the major problem. Forget pinching pennies on food and coffee.

 

[daivey]

...

 

[James Orman]

Why did you quit with barely any savings on a whim? Then you learned to do web on the fly at the same time to make websites for other people? You should really explain how ridiculous this is and why it is not recommended to do.

Do as you say in the book, but you didn't even follow what you preach originally. Which is a frustrating part of the book. The other parts of the book I liked about how to determine a good product. But overall I think the Unscripted book needs a more serious approach on how to plan your life to get where you need to go without going bust horribly.

 

[Emilezgheib]

I believe that coding is the future, web development, software coding, gaming development, AI coding, all of it, because everything is being digitalized nowadays, and if you're good enough and bright enough to come up with a new idea or an old idea done better, and you create a website for it on your own and you automate it, then there you have it - a money automated system.

 

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[100ToOne]

Why did you quit with barely any savings on a whim? Then you learned to do web on the fly at the same time to make websites for other people? You should really explain how ridiculous this is and why it is not recommended to do.

Do as you say in the book, but you didn't even follow what you preach originally. Which is a frustrating part of the book. The other parts of the book I liked about how to determine a good product. But overall I think the Unscripted book needs a more serious approach on how to plan your life to get where you need to go without going bust horribly.

The book says he learned coding on the fly? I remember him saying he was learning to code while waiting for customers in the limo.

Also, If I remember well, he didn't have responsibilities. He had the chance to work on hourly jobs if he went desperate. So what do you mean? :S

 

[Appdeveloper]

Software is just an easy way for people to get started. But yeah if you're learning it just to build other people's products/software then that is not fastlane. Although I will take the odd programming job if it's big enough and my company is slow, I can change almost $200/hr because I have a certain skill level. So if I'm bored on a weekend and want to make an extra 4K over 3 days while my SASS business is operating in the background I'll take it

Sounds interesting, can you give me some tips on how to get software or app development clients?

 

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