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Honesty - how to handle dishonest employee

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christiandoule

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Hey all, I just joined the group. I have an 8 yr employee that I've felt has taken advantage of my generosity increasingly more the last few years. I've suspected her of fudging her hours but I never had hard evidence until now.

Most of my team is on salary and the last thing I want to worry about is tracking time. I have an amazing culture on a team of 10.

I feel like I can't trust this person now, and that she stole from me. I feel like I need to terminate this relationship but am looking for any insight. Do I give her another chance?

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astr0

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Hi,

Is she really good at what she does? Like much better than everyone else? If so, are you paying her accordingly?

Yes. Yes. No. - Consider giving her a chance.
In other cases do what you have to.

Welcome to the forum.
 

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This may not be what most want to hear - but if you are to maintain control of the culture and integrity of your company, there should be a zero tolerance policy against stealing, period. Not handling this directly and tactfully sets a precedence in your company that there is a slight amount of tolerance for it, and inevitably others will learn about it and think less of you as a leader, or follow suit themselves.

It’s an unfortunate thing to deal with. Imagine all of the time she has stolen from you, this is only what you caught. No need to shun her or make a spectacle, have a simple private conversation explaining your stance on it, and convey that the company is moving forward without her as an employee. Wish her the best, thank her for the 8 years she contributed and move on.
 
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christiandoule

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My initial thought was to terminate. Then the emotions kick in and made me question the decision. Not anymore.... I appreciate your feedback!

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christiandoule

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I absolutely believe in paying above market for good people with the ownership mentality. I hire for growth, not in reaction to growth. I always want capacity so we don't drop the ball with clients.

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SteveO

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As an employer, you would be better served to get ahead of these types of situations. Make sure people realize what the ramifications are in advance. Talk to the person when you suspect. It can be done without accusing. A simple conversation about possible situations.

There is a way to keep this person if you are so inclined. A week off without pay, no pay increases for a period of time and a solid confession showing remorse with a commitment not to do it again. Also, repayment or docked pay for the time that was proven.

If they don't like this, let them quit or fire them. Document the entire process.
 

MJ DeMarco

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I've suspected her of fudging her hours but I never had hard evidence until now.
Any more details than this? My first inclination is to terminate but I feel there is more to the story. Circumstances? History? Track record? Is she the #1 employee?
 
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christiandoule

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She's over the last few years gone on office supply runs that should take less than an hour but take 2 hours. Expects me to buy lunch when others are grateful for the last 6 lunches I bought. She is not the most critical employee and is part time, hence the time sheet.

I haven't addressed the issues to this point because it was never as blatant as this time.

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I haven't addressed the issues to this point because it was never as blatant as this time.
It sucks, you want to trust people and give them the benefit of the doubt. But when they take advantage of you the situation changes. This situation is complicated for you because you've not addressed the issue before and she's been with you for 8 years. She likely doesn't believe she's doing anything wrong...from her perspective.

If she generally does good work for you, then have a sit down and explain that her behavior cannot continue. Document the unsatisfactory performance and what must be done to correct the behavior. Both of you must sign the documentation. If you've never had to do this with an employee it will not be fun. Depending on what state you live in you will need this should you decide to terminate her employment.

I've had employees leave rather than get put on a Performance Improvement Plan (PIP). I've also had employees thank me for giving them another chance. Remember, humans are naturally inclined to do what is in our best self-interest. The messy part is what someone defines as their best self-interest. Good luck
 

SteveO

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She's over the last few years gone on office supply runs that should take less than an hour but take 2 hours. Expects me to buy lunch when others are grateful for the last 6 lunches I bought. She is not the most critical employee and is part time, hence the time sheet.

I haven't addressed the issues to this point because it was never as blatant as this time.

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Given this detail... I agree that letting her go makes the most sense.
 

J.Sark

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Do you worry about minutes? Do you want your employees worried about losing minutes?

How much time will be wasted helping a new employee acquire the skills / knowledge that comes from 8 years of experience?

Seems a bit ridiculous to me, same for the fact that most people are recommending terminating the employee.

Good luck finding an office supply runner willing to stay 8 years on the same job who doesn't spend a minute and wants to buy you lunch (is the lunch part even serious?).
 

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MJ DeMarco

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Doesn't sound as egregious as I originally expected.

Perhaps a good talk is all you need, to iron out expectations.

Thread title changed for more clarity.
 

Valhalla

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In my experience, employees continue to do these type of things because they think no one notices. Sometimes a simple, direct "I know you went home early yesterday" can go a long way to deterring the behavior. As mentioned, a discussion about expectations and standards is definitely needed.
 

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Hey all, I just joined the group. I have an 8 yr employee that I've felt has taken advantage of my generosity increasingly more the last few years. I've suspected her of fudging her hours but I never had hard evidence until now.

Most of my team is on salary and the last thing I want to worry about is tracking time. I have an amazing culture on a team of 10.

I feel like I can't trust this person now, and that she stole from me. I feel like I need to terminate this relationship but am looking for any insight. Do I give her another chance?

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
Address it head on. Invite her into your office, show her the discrepancy. If she lies fire her on the spot. If she has a reasoning for it, hear her out.

The only way I would even consider keeping a blatant time thief is if she comes clean. Even then, I would put her on probation, cut her pay for 90 days, and make her clock in directly with you.

Jobs don’t exist for employees, they exist for the company. I commonly see people with the opposite mindset. This is a company, not an ATM machine for employees. Every employee should understand that their value input gets a money output, not the other way around.
 
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ZCP

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Talk to her. Make sure you have the full story. Learn the 'why'. Ask her what she would do in your spot.
Then act accordingly.

For the future ..... the time to fire someone is the first time you think about firing them.

This case would be an exception until you have full information.... thus the talking to her to get to the bottom of 'what made you do this'?
 

minivanman

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Dang, I'm glad my last boss never thought this way. lol This was way back in the early 90's...... we had always just worked and he never worried about time. We did what we needed to do and more. He put in a time clock and I bet I never used that thing 10 times over a year. lol I always made it clear..... if you are going to fire me, do it in the morning so I can go back home and go to sleep. If you fire me in the afternoon, I'm going postal because you've made me miss out on several hours sleep.

I told y'all that, because, here is what sets off a red flag about this for me..... she is PART TIME! Nope, that changes everything. Part timers go by the rules in my book.

I guess I run things a little different than everyone else. lol While I always tried to be fair to everyone that worked for me, I did give special treatment to the ones that worked the hardest.

I guess this is why I'm not any good at working for someone else.... if I go on an errand, I might be gone 2 hours too.... no telling what I might end up doing. Stop for food, take a lil nap..... BUT, my work was always done and usually extra was done before my day was over.
 

ideasunlimited1

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If she's a stellar employee sales wise and meeting project deadlines, then maybe she just needs to be shifted to a flexible hour plan. Work smarter, not harder...because otherwise she may be having longer shopping runs and lunches just to fill in time. However, if not, then there needs to be a discussion that she is not meeting the job standards and that corrective action will need to happen: docking pay, termination or having regular accountability meetings.
 

SteveO

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Do you worry about minutes? Do you want your employees worried about losing minutes?

How much time will be wasted helping a new employee acquire the skills / knowledge that comes from 8 years of experience?

Seems a bit ridiculous to me, same for the fact that most people are recommending terminating the employee.

Good luck finding an office supply runner willing to stay 8 years on the same job who doesn't spend a minute and wants to buy you lunch (is the lunch part even serious?).
It is not about the time... It is about the honesty. Besides that point, how will it affect the rest of the team seeing the boss get "handled" by an employee.

If the person wants to do things while out, it should be on their own time. Otherwise it is stealing.

Seems like the younger generation is much more accepting of this. Back in the day if I cheated on time and got caught, I would have expected to lose my job.
 

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Just remember, what you'll do to one, you'll have to do to all. If one get's a slap in the wrist due to dishonesty then other's should have the same.

Have a talk with him/her and learn more before making a decision.
 

Real Deal Denver

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I once did a job in thirty minutes that should have taken over two hours. The guy that was working with me said, wow, that was great - now we have more time to get other things done. I said no - now we get a very nice relaxing lunch of at least an hour. He was a company man and thought taking a nice lunch was stealing from the company. How DO you brainwash an employee so they feel guilty about taking a lunch break? I took lunch - which I deserved whether or not I just saved the company two hours (which I did). Nobody said anything because I did excellent work, and always did more than was expected. If they would have, I would have walked right then and there. There comes a time for a reward if it is justly earned - and this wasn't even a reward - LOL. But at this company nobody ever took lunch. It was kind of a "macho" thing. Well, I like to eat - so excuse me for that. The Boss let everyone know that you can eat while you are driving. Here's the kicker... one day I offered to take the Boss out to lunch (I pay) at a really great buffet I found. He agreed. I thought I was being so nice taking the Boss out. We went through a burger drive-through instead (he was driving). I said I SAID I was going to the buffet. He said we don't have time for that - there's work to be done. And it's best to not eat too much because then you don't work as hard.

I didn't work there very long. He lost a great worker - I lost a shitty job - and he has had a lot of trouble finding and keeping good workers ever since.

It goes both ways. That's okay. I was there to learn AND earn, so I could improve my skills - which I did, so I went along with the games.

For this situation, I might even go as far as taking this "stealing" employee out to lunch to discuss this - with the full intent on keeping her - and possibly even PROMOTING her. IF she is that good, of course. Good people are hard to find. Fantastic people are almost impossible to find. Weigh it out.

Was I stupid? I didn't even get a lunch that I was going to pay for! (I'm still friends with my former boss - and now he respects me a whole lot more.) Some bosses (I am one now) wonder why their title is spelled backward - double S O B.

ANYONE can be a boss. Very few can be leaders that inspire and bring out the best in their people. I'm not going to fire a valuable employee on the spot over a few dollars. I'm not going to shoot a shoplifter over a few dollars either. It's all relative.

By the way, I have had THE most hardworking and loyal "co-workers" of anyone I've ever known. I tell everyone that although I may be in charge, we are there to help each other in a common goal - so I am not a boss - I am their co-worker that is there to help them and guide them - and it may be my job to make decisions - BUT if I do my job correctly, they can do theirs! If they can't - it's my fault, not theirs. My people could, and would, run circles around any other department. THAT'S what a good boss can accomplish!

Yeah, I've been on both sides. Think this over. It could turn out great if you don't make some snap decision over a few crumbs. I'm sticking up for the "unknown hardest worker you never knew you had" employee. They're out there.
 

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I don't get the part about buying her lunch.
Do you mean you treat her to lunch or she asks you to buy lunch for her as if she's your boss?
 

Real Deal Denver

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I don't get the part about buying her lunch.
Do you mean you treat her to lunch or she asks you to buy lunch for her as if she's your boss?
I take her out to lunch (and pay) to some mid-range restaurant. Somewhere where we can have a conversation. Not McDonalds.

This shows a great deal of respect and is acting very professional. I have found that when I treat people as professionals. they "live up to the part." I always make it a point to explain that we are all valuable employees. I may have more responsibility, and I may be paid more, but we are all needed. I have been treated so badly so many times that I very purposely go out of my way to NOT treat people like they don't matter, or they are "just peons."

Here is the takeaway. IF things don't work out, I guarantee you this person will remember being treated with respect. IF they do work out, the goal I am after is to make them sorry for what they did and to be grateful for being treated so professionally. I would ask them if it was a money issue - did they really need that extra $20? If it was that, and they were sorry, and they were a good employee - they get a $40 a week raise right then and there. People don't transform without some jolt to them like that. Do you want a superstar? That goes a long way to create one. More on that later - with my friend John.

I don't have a long list of accomplishments in life - but one thing I can say I've done is to always treat people with respect and as professionals. I have been promoted and rewarded for that - but it has often gone unnoticed as well. I once did the job of THREE people in my department for a month. I pleaded for help every day, as I was running at full speed and getting super stressed out. The loser Boss never did get me any help. At the end of the project - which was one of the hardest things I've ever done - we had an award ceremony and I was given an award - and a sealed envelope which had a bonus check in it. DAMN - was I happy! I could have cried. I told myself over and over that now it would all be worth it. I told myself good job for sticking it out. Until I opened the envelope. It was for $20. What a kick in the gut. I gave the check to my wife, and am still astounded by it today, even though that was 20 years ago. I'll never get over that shock. The company was IBM. Yeah, big powerful IBM. I had other idiot managers there as well. I wish I would have kept that check - or at least copied it - to frame it. I really wish I would have torn it in half and given half back to Ron, saying "Ron, this is too much - I'm only worth half this amount." And then walked out and quit. But I had a family. Too bad, because that gesture would be one that Ron would never have forgotten.

I've sworn to NEVER make anyone feel so sick as I did when I opened that envelope. Everyone deserves to be treated with a modicum of respect. Think of the guy in some middle east country that had his hand cut off for stealing a loaf of bread? Damn THIEF! WHY did he steal the loaf of bread? You or I would of too if we were starving, I'm guessing.

I always remember - there, but for the grace of God, go I - when I see a homeless person - or a crippled person - or .........

Sure I've been taken advantage of. Sure I've been lied to. But I'm not going to let some petty amount of money make me act like too many of the people that I've encountered in my life. My former IBM manager - Ron - will always be remembered by me. Thanks, Ron - I guarantee you I would be far less of a person today if I had not met you. You were a wake-up call that helped make me who I am today, Ron. I'm nothing like you Ron. Nothing. And I'm damned proud of that... (You too Jeff - and Peggy. All IBM losers enshrined forever as pathetic examples of what NOT to be like as a human being.)

Interesting perspective isn't it? Now, let's say we stick to our principles and fire her on the spot. Who does that help? Nobody. I'm assuming she's a good worker that might be struggling. Put yourself in HER place. How would you feel after being caught for some petty stealing - you're taken out to lunch - given the opportunity to explain yourself - and then given a RAISE? That's how you can make employees so loyal and grateful that they'd take a bullet for you. I was just talking today about one of the most respected people I am privileged to know. My wife reminded me at one time he was a lazy no good drunk that was going to AA meetings - which is where he was found by the man that would transform him into a solid pillar of quality that everyone admires. John. I kind of doubt anyone could reach the incredible levels he has if they hadn't been so down in the gutter to begin with. He has drive, morals, and compassion that I rarely have seen in anyone. And at one time he was a worthless bum. There you go. That's the lesson here. When you actually KNOW someone like that, it is an awesome awakening experience to behold.
 

Silverfox148

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@Real Deal Denver, very cool stories man.

I'm salaried but even when I wasn't and to this day, if any superior confronts me about time/hours worked, it's a good reason to walk on the spot. Nothing good every comes from having bosses/working at a place that is watching the clock instead of the value/work that has/is being produced.

I can usually produce the work of 3 individuals in my field and my superiors know it and let me set my own hours, if they didn't know it or balk at my hours I don't want to work there anyway if they are that stupid to not see that I am producing for 3 individuals. This clock watching comes from a scarcity mindset instead of an abundance mindset, if they are a good worker and a producer everyone else will see it and there will little to no complaining. I don't make it a point to rub my hours on people's faces either, nothing needs to be said, they understand.

If this lady is a producer/good worker I would give her raise and find more challenging work for her and tell her to be mindful of the impressions she may be giving, if she is a bad worker get rid of her not because of the hours/time thing but because she isn't producing.
 

PizzaOnTheRoof

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Dishonesty is dishonesty and should be punished accordingly...

But this corporate, 40hr/week and time clock worldview is coming to an end. As someone else said, watching the time clock is a sign of scarcity not abundance.

I read a story (may have been on this forum) of a business owner letting one of his real estate agents work remotely.

He saw her running errands during the “9-5pm” window and promptly fired her...regardless of her performance.

Maybe a couple long lunches isn’t that big of a deal in the long run?
 

Arun Siva

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Arun Siva

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Maybe a couple long lunches isn’t that big of a deal in the long run?
Not a good idea. Trust me on this one... A couple long lunches turns into haphazard conformity in which a level of comfortability sets in. This is not good for the environment of your business.
 

ideasunlimited1

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@Real Deal Denver, very cool stories man.

I'm salaried but even when I wasn't and to this day, if any superior confronts me about time/hours worked, it's a good reason to walk on the spot. Nothing good every comes from having bosses/working at a place that is watching the clock instead of the value/work that has/is being produced.

I can usually produce the work of 3 individuals in my field and my superiors know it and let me set my own hours, if they didn't know it or balk at my hours I don't want to work there anyway if they are that stupid to not see that I am producing for 3 individuals. This clock watching comes from a scarcity mindset instead of an abundance mindset, if they are a good worker and a producer everyone else will see it and there will little to no complaining. I don't make it a point to rub my hours on people's faces either, nothing needs to be said, they understand.

If this lady is a producer/good worker I would give her raise and find more challenging work for her and tell her to be mindful of the impressions she may be giving, if she is a bad worker get rid of her not because of the hours/time thing but because she isn't producing.
I agree with this..the very definition of salaried is that you are not hourly. You aren't being held to a requirement to be in during a set period of time scheduled. This usually means you work more than an hourly employee, but some weeks you may work less. My policy is this: if you can get everything you need to get done at a high standard of quality, consider that extra time a bonus. Otherwise, it's just finding something to complain about. Now, if quality of work is the actual issue, then that needs to be vocalized.
 

MichaelLekker

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I would sit her down and just have a good conversation about what you feel is happening, or what the situation looks like. Without evidence of her stealing firing her would not be right. A lot of things could be going on. Maybe she has a difficult time in her personal life which is now reflected at her work, or maybe she lost motivation for this job and feels like she is ready for the next step(in your company). I feel that keeping the focus on the good things employees do and trying to stimulate that works better for me than punishing them when they do something wrong.
I read an interesting book about having difficult or serious conversations which helped me a lot with these things:
Crucial Conversations: Tools for Talking When Stakes Are High
 

SteveO

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Strong feelings are coming over me like this is an era in which I don't belong. Too old and now a dinosaur.

In the old construction days we would tell each other to leave our personal problems at home. There was no safe space or bosses trying to figure out why the performance was not there. You performed or were relieved of duties. You would pay the price if you lied, cheated, or stole.

I do agree that there is an environment that should be established that will affect people's motivations and desires to work. I was a manager for many years at HP. It was a company that was defined by treating people fairly. So I understand the process.

I also had a VERY successful career there and on my own. I managed a crew of managers, maintenance, and rehabbers on my apartments. With great results. We have 30 employees at the golf course. We have tolerance for people going through issues.

But, don't lie, cheat or steal!

It is not the company's job to make people perform. Where is the personal responsibility?
 
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