Help with development

[DrummerDad]

I am having issues with clearing my next hurdle. For a background, check out this https://www.thefastlaneforum.com/your-goals-your-fastlane-plan/31001-designing-inventing.html thread. Here are the cliff notes: In 2010, I invented a quick change head assembly for a percussion drum. I went to the Summer NAMM (National Association of Musical Merchants) show in Nashville Tennessee, with only a rough prototype. It was received well. Everyone loved it, even in its admittedly rough form. Well over 500 people came by the booth, to have a look. It was incredible. Magazine editors, music industry professionals, business owners, even some college level instructors, and recording studio owners. Everyone loved it, and wanted to see it manufactured, most wanted to know when it would be ready. In short, I filed a patent, and was recently awarded one. I started a website http://www.pdsdrums.com and have spent the last 3 years trying to find someone who will license it, or partner with me. I am even willing to manufacture it myself, but that requires seed money. And here is my problem; I have contacted over 30 US based companies to give me a quote on manufacturing this simple set of three rings, and only 2 have replied. Both of those were way to high. At one point, I had an arrangement with a guy who was importing from China. We had a few made, and they were junk. I told him we couldn't sell them, and he said that was the best they could do. So, that partnership went away. I am in a rut. I cant get a quote for manufacturing costs, so I cant begin to get investors. I could try and approach the big guys, but all the contacts I made at the NAMM show, tell me it wont be very beneficial. The percussion industry is very stagnant. And it is run by accountants, who are only concerned with ROIs. I can explain more, but I don't want to ramble. This has been a 4 year journey to nowhere, and its started to work on my patience. How can I get this product produced if The Big Names in the industry wont give me the time of day (the general attitude of the ones I have talked to seemed to be "that's interesting, lets see if he can make it happen"), The manufacturers wont give me an estimate to work with, and every time I think I might have an avenue to a licensing agreement, it gets shut down?

 

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[dknise]

1) ROI is everything. If you don't have a return on your investment, you didn't make an investment.

2) Why did you contact 30 US based manufacturers? I know having an Asian manufacturer is "sending jobs over sea's", but the same people who work those "jobs" are demanding low price points from you, and you have a choice to either hit those price points or not compete.

3) It looks like you have an incredible product with a "why didn't someone think of that yet?!" zeal to it.

4) I know you said you would wish the big names would work with you, but have you contacted these big names about a licensing agreement? or just the manufacturers? When people interview for a job, I always tell them to never send a 1 sheet. The best way to grab someone's attention is to do the job as your interview haha. Your interview? Is your product. The boldest move I can think of you to do would be placing your product directly in the hands of the people at those big name percussion companies who make the decisions about what gets sent to the production line. If that means personally driving 500 miles to their office, walking in the door, and demanding you have 5 minutes with them to a confused secretary, so be it. It could also be a well packaged box in the mail with your product, a copy of the patent, and a letter of intent.


You have a great product, so just play hard ball and push. Remember when you tell these exec's about it that you're telling them how much freaking money they are going to make off of it. If you can show them the product means big bucks, they won't have a choice not to take it.

Goodluck!

 

[DrummerDad]

I talked to a few big names at the show. Their arrogance was over the top. I know these companies dont send the most important people they have to a small show in Nashville, but the people there could have made a difference, had they actually looked at what I had.

And I like the idea of going and talking with them, but they are in California, and I am in Tennessee. Its an expensive trip either way.

I guess I am going to have to attend the California show. Its about ten times bigger.

 

[DeletedUser2]

kickstarter

 

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[DrummerDad]

kickstarter

Yes. Ive been advised to use kickstarter by a few other people, and I would. But I still cant get a quote for manufacturing costs, so how much money do I need?

I also agree, with a global economy, an American made product isnt as important as a product consumers can afford. Truthfully after chasing American companies for two years trying to get even a response by email with little to no results, I would welcome an overseas company. The one in China I used for the prototypes didnt care if I wanted 1 or 100. They just couldnt get the finish and quality I am expecting. And Im not being picky, either. The rings are rough.

To me it doesnt matter where or how they are made. Even the material they are made from and the processes involved is up for negotiation. All I want is a working, quality product that people can afford to put on their drums. It doesnt matter how that gets done.

I guess my next step is to find ANY manufacturer and get a starting point. Ill also look into kickstarter more. At first glance, they want a project deadline, which I cant give them at this time. Also they want rewards for donations. I dont know what reward I could offer at this point. I can come up with something, Im sure. But I dont know how to address the deadline. Even if I came into some money, where do I get them made?

 

[Nick]

Your inability to get a quote and make some calculations based on that is a problem. If you have a somehow unique product (custom) getting a quote is not as easy as you think, the manufacturing company has to do a lot of "thinking" and research on your part to provide you a reliable quote. And if you don't come up as a professional lead, with a serious revenue upside potential, they are not going to do all this on their own dime just because you asked how much would it cost to develop your drums. So be prepare to be either more insistent, or pay with your own money and order smaller quantities.

You had a bad experience in China. That's ONE. China has thousands of manufacturers, each with different quality control, prices, etc.. Try more.

The big boys of course are not going to give you the time of the day as you wish. You sound lazy, expecting the easy way of them licensing the idea and doing all the work for you, while you stay and reap the rewards.

For now they are the big boys because they have done something in this industry and are valuable while for now you are just one of probably thousands of amateurs pitching them with just an idea and no value of your own to offer them.

Once you will prove yourself and get yourself starting - manufacturing small batches, selling online on amazon or ebay, or at mom and pop shops, etc.. - you will see they will become more receptive when you discuss with them and you have something running of your own, instead just of an idea and a patent.

My 2 cents.

 

[DrummerDad]

You had a bad experience in China. That's ONE. China has thousands of manufacturers, each with different quality control, prices, etc.. Try more.

The big boys of course are not going to give you the time of the day as you wish. You sound lazy, expecting the easy way of them licensing the idea and doing all the work for you, while you stay and reap the rewards.


My 2 cents.

I agree. I had one bad experience. Somewhere there is a company that can make these the way I need them. The hard part is finding them.

And Im not lazy. I thought the idea was to get paid for doing nothing. I don't want a job. I have one of those. Im not as interested in starting a company that makes things, as I am licensing a design and reaping the benefits. I thought licensing intellectual property was fastlane.

Either way, you sound a bit like some of my old friends. When I started this, the machinist who made the prototype told me I was "doing it all wrong". Apparently Im supposed to make a handful, sell them online, and hope someone important wants them, either to license or to use on a famous drummers set. Or maybe I can get lucky, and word of mouth will do the job for me. Sort of an "in the trenches" approach. Then after years of trudging along, maybe Ill make it, if one of the big boys don't steal the idea, and put me out of business before I get started. Im not interested in that approach. Its not worth it.
If Im forced to make these on my own, without a licensing agreement, Ill do it. Licensing wasn't the "lazy" way out. It was the cheapest way out. And the quickest. If I start a manufacturing company, and make these on my own, that's not fastlane. Its better than what I have, but its not good enough.

 

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[x9vjzs098u123rnl]

This is a pretty niche product... not sure Kickstarter would be the way to go.

I'm not sure I would listen to Nick either- there aren't really "mom and pop shops" to carry drumheads, it'd be hard to slowly scale this up.

I would say continue on both fronts, and be persistent and keep trying until something works out. Show the product to as many people as possible- I know you said people are jerks but keep contacting the actual drumhead companies (Remo, Evans, etc. etc.), contact drum techs for studios and tours, contact actual drummers, hell, call up Steve Weiss and get him on the phone and then be prepared for an unpleasant but potentially worthwhile phone convo (he's kind of a jerk). Eventually somebody with the right contacts will see the big potential this has (because as a drummer, I agree- this has good potential).

 

[DrummerDad]

I will talk to any professional or semi professional drummer I can. But I cant do anything until I know what it will cost to make. There will be a price at which it doesnt make sense to buy it.
On a positive note, I talked to two companies today about forging them. Not sure how it works, but they said it would be between $3-7 per pound of aluminum. Im sure there is a tooling cost as well, but judging from the weight of these rings I now have, I might be onto something.

 

[Nick]

I thought the idea was to get paid for doing nothing. I don't want a job. I have one of those. Im not as interested in starting a company that makes things, as I am licensing a design and reaping the benefits. I thought licensing intellectual property was fastlane.

"Reaping the benefits" phase comes after some phases called "taking the risks" and "paying your dues".

You want the big company to "take the risks" of getting your product to market. What happens if they flop? They invest hundreds of thousands of dollars in custom molds, mass production, marketing, and they do not sell. Are you going to reimburse them for their effort?

No, that's why they do not feel like taking the risk on your product and it's on you (aka "paying your dues") to do everything possible to prove them that the concept is viable. This might mean limited distribution in the beginning, showing them there is at least some interest in small markets to make it easier for them to justify licensing the product and taking mass market.

A lot more products got licensing this way: showing promising traction in small markets, then being licensed by big boys and taking mass market, than just having an idea and licensing it right away.

And if you are afraid of big brands "stealing your concept": that can happen much often if you only have an idea and a patent than can be circumvented or dissected by top lawyers than if you have an idea + patent + product on the market and history of selling. They have a much harder time stealing your idea if you can prove you have brought it to market first and their is a trail and history there.

Now, i understand where you come from. Licensing an idea to the big boys to do all the work is still a viable concept. But you are playing it wrong. That's a numbers game. You do not stay 4 years on just one idea, and hope to strike it this way. You have to come up with tens or hundreds of ideas, and hope one of them strikes gold. You are playing the game wrong.

read Stephen's thread here One simple idea --> fastlane forum is a goldmine.

If I start a manufacturing company, and make these on my own, that's not fastlane.

Taking a product to market by yourself is definitively fastlane. You seem to confuse being fastlane = "I thought the idea was to get paid for doing nothing". No one said anything close to that.

If you are looking to see what a similar journey implies of a real fastlaner starting from scratch and taking his product to market, read here the paint brush cover thread -case study.

That's a real example of a fastlaner busting his a$$ to develop a product from scratch and taking it to market. And it goes through a whole lot of effort to make it successful. As i said, fastlane forum here is a gold mine with people having done what you want to do and documenting their journey.

I do not say this is better than that or etc.. But be aware of how the game is played and calculate your odds of success.

Coming up with an idea, big company licenses it, you get to be a millionaire. Rarely happens that way. Sometimes it does, but sometimes people win lottery tickets too. Even when it happens, your royalty is so low, you are not cashing in as much as you would expect. People that invented popular products that sold on the order of tens of millions of units are not millionaires. Low control, plus low royalty does that to you. If i had more time i could give you a lot of real life examples, but i think i wrote enough.

Good luck with your project.

 

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[DeletedUser2]

if your having that hard of a time getting someone to call you back you may want to look at the common element...

you.

you may need someone with experience to help find you a manufacture. that way they know what to say or do, that speaks directly to the manufacturing people.

you are obviously not getting the right message across if its 2 yrs.

ThomasNet® - Product Sourcing and Supplier Discovery Platform

 

[Milkanic]

Who made the original prototype? What is your cost per unit vs. what you think you can sell this for?

It looks like roll formed steel would be the way to go for this. There are thousands or roll former shops in China.

Also might be worth it to ping these guys. Roll Forming Leader | Roller Die + Forming, Inc. | Louisville USA

 

[DrummerDad]

Im sure the problem is me. Ive never shown the product to anyone who said, "well.. that's just stupid". Im not a business major, I have 0 college credits, and very limited management experience. I am just a guy who has a few ideas (this is just the first, and what I thought would be the easiest), who works 60 hrs a week, has a wife and three kids, a mortgage, car payments, etc... Not excuses, just facts.

I would absolutely fund this idea from my account, if I could. If there is a reasonable quote that comes in, and I can get a few made for a couple thousand dollars, Ill do it. That is the extent of my reach, financially. The prototypes were machined from 6061-t6511 aluminum plate. The material alone was over $1000, per set. Then the machining costs were close to another grand, and I paid a "friend" close to $1500 for the drawings, which are probably part of the problem as well. Most of you know the cost of a patent.

Im an aviation mechanic, with no mass production experience. Im sure in larger companies there is a person in place who can make the decision on how to manufacture a part. I think of them like wheels for a car. You can get stamped steel wheel; cheap and ugly, but they work. Cast aluminum; better than the steel wheels, and cost a bit more. Then the Billet forged wheel; best at everything, but it'll cost you. They all do the same job.There are a number of ways to make these. Stamped steel, casting, molding, forged. More ways than I know of. I don't care how they are made, as long as they work, and are affordable to the average drummer.

The biggest hurdle is getting a quote. I have no idea what they will cost to mass produce. That is the hinge holding it all together. If I cant get them made, in a price range that someone can afford, I have nothing. Whether its through licensing, investors, or out of my own pocket.

 

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[DrummerDad]

So, I got some more quotes back from the forging companies, and its more of the same. They want over $100 a ring, and that's rough machined. I would still have to finish machine them, and provide the hardware and assembly, shipping etc.. That's almost 4 times what they really need to be at the top of the scale.
Honestly I think plate 6061 is cheaper.

I have to be doing something wrong. This is crazy.

Im going to post some pictures, and drawings, and let you all look, as soon as I can. Keep in mind I am having the drawings changed/updated as we speak. I would mention his name and publicly thank him, but I don't know if he wants to be overrun by requests. I hope he knows how much I appreciate his help.

I need input on low cost production. Costing didn't work. The aluminum was soft, and chalky. Plate is expensive, and has a lot of waste, but I can use some of the waste for other ring sizes. Forging is proving to be as expensive as plate. Tell me what your ideas are.

The pictures are here for now. http://www.pdsdrums.com

 

[CommonCents]

If you are finding execution/manufacturing is too tough, take a more focus on licensing. Target current manufacturers. You shouldn't have to have hard manufacturing numbers. If your product idea is compelling enough as you mention from the trade show, someone should be taking an interest in it. Let them run their own numbers and negotiate a royalty. As you mentioned, you may have not hit the right people at the companies you have had contact with. If it was a trade show for products, often times those manufacturers send more sales people selling their own products, not buyer/engineer types looking for products. Was it a sourcing show for manufacturers or a finished product show for distribution/retail? However, I'd think if the sales side of a company found your product compelling they'd put in a good word for you at home "hey, we can sell that!".

Also, pursue the media outlets in the music industry. Send them a one page sell sheet with your site and whatever info you decide. They are always looking for new products to highlight in their magazines, blogs etc....That could grease the skids.

Also, what about contacting some famous drummers? One of them might get behind your product for a cut, and get you traction/recognition/leverage with a manufacturer, hell they may become an investor to fund some prototypes.

As a former drummer, a quick change setup seems very logical. What a PITA to undo several bolts/nuts!

How are you asking for quotes? Just for one? Of course the first set will cost a bunch with engineering, tooling, setup etcc....have you asked for quotes for 100sets, 1,000 sets and 10,000 sets?

 

[smartman]

@Drummerdad - This sounds like a really badass idea. I toured in a band for 10 years, and could very easily get this product in the hands of a lot of mid sized touring bands, who I am assuming would be your target market for something like this. If you'd like to message me direct so we can chat about it, I'd love to talk. If you'd prefer to keep all discussion in the thread, that is fine too.

Does the drum sound the same with the quick snap head on as it does with a standard head? I could see that being the biggest concern and hurdle.

 

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[angelique]

Some thoughts:
- How come there are no demos on your site? Demos for the sound, setup, the benefits. "How to set up your drums in 10 minutes!" These videos should be well produced with great audio. (Note: I have no idea how long it takes.)
- Tweet the demo video to professional drummers, with a headline they can't ignore.
- Get a quote for a similar product from all manufacturers. To the ones that respond, ask for a quote for this product.
- Are you emailing manufacturers or calling them? Do both.
- Research 50 roadies who are actually friends with the band. Demo your product to them. Generate demand.
- Are you only talking to males? Talk to women. Women talk.
- Where are the testimonials/reviews from the people who have loved your product?
- What about pitching to music stores?
- Where are the people complaining about the setup time? Do they know about this yet?
- Are you demo-ing when you go to trade shows? Some trade shows have performances - any way to get a drummer up there while using your stuff?

 

[Eskil]

Cool product! I have a friend who's a drummer and I know he would love these!

Anyway - here is what I would do to speed up the process:
Instead of trying to get the whole product made in one place in China - contact various manufacturers who can produce each ring or each part of your product separately. You will have a much better chance at getting the quality you need this way, and also an easier time finding manufacturers. (For instance, some are better at rubber parts, some are better at CNC machining, etc. etc.) So get each part made by factory A, B and C - then have them shipped to you in the US for assembly here.

That's basically what I've done with my own invention. Another benefit to this is that there won't be ONE factory that can reproduce your product in one place. Heck, they won't probably even know what they are making parts for, I know my 3 Chinese manufacturers sure don't! This way, you reduce the odds of the product being copied.

EDIT: I should add that this will be a quicker way for you to get manufacturing costs estimated.

 

[Eskil]

I need input on low cost production. Costing didn't work. The aluminum was soft, and chalky. Plate is expensive, and has a lot of waste, but I can use some of the waste for other ring sizes. Forging is proving to be as expensive as plate. Tell me what your ideas are.

How about CNC aluminum machining? I can pm you some good Chinese manufacturers if you're interested.

 

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[DrummerDad]

Sorry if I seem slow to respond. I work night shift, from 4pm-2:30am. I can respond at work sometimes, but its a PITA on the phone.

The reason I want to make sure I can manufacture them in bulk, at an affordable price is because of the responses from the NAMM show in 2010. There I met the producers of both major drum magazines, at separate times of course. They all loved the idea, and said it was unique, and that I had to make it. The response was unreal. While they were taking pictures, they told me they would not run them in the magazines yet, for two reasons. One it was a prototype. Two, because they had seen people bring a product out, without an infrastructure that could at least keep up with a small quantity of units, and they failed miserably. They both said, independently and on separate days, that if they released information on it, I would be swamped with requests. That is why I need to make sure I can at least keep up with a low quantity, and be able to move into a larger quantity when needed.

As far as licensing, I have tried talking to a few people, at the show, and even through contacts since. They have all been fruitless. I do still have a contact who can get me 20 minutes with a major percussion equipment manufacturer, since he recently had his product licensed through them. We have discussed it, and I think I will talk with them. But he feels they may not be interested directly. They don't really make anything close to it. Still worth a shot, but they are also in California. I will have to wait until I can attend the show out there, and that will cost close to $5k. I can attend the other show, here in TN, but a lot of the bigger names don't attend it.

As far as Famous drummers, I would be open to them as well, even if they aren't main stream. My original agreement with Ron from California was so close, he was going to invite a friend of his over for dinner, to pitch the idea to him. I wont mention the drummers name, but he is HUGE in the drumming community. I recently contacted Ron again, to see if he is still interested in trying to make this. We were at about 90% before, it would be a shame to leave it that close, especially since I now have a patent which was a concern for him before. He emailed back and said he was travelling, and would get back ASAP. So I might be able to still work this end. If we can find a way to get the quality gap closed. Ron had even had boxes made for shipping. We were that close.

I talk to both males and females, anyone who can help. I would also be interested in talking with drum techs, or drummers who travel as well. Anyone who knows the drummer and their needs. I only have two functioning units at the moment, and I would like to have a few more. It might be early for that. Im still interested. If Ron and I can get his friend interested, and maybe even put his name on it, holy crap...The possibilities. But we still have to get them made.

And Ill work on getting more pictures and videos on the site this weekend. I haven't fully committed to the site, because I don't want to get ahead of myself, and because Im a technological retard. I can make a you tube video, with a link, and possibly get a lot of interest, but I still need to make sure I can get them made. The last quote I received was outrageous. And the guy accidently copied me (maybe it wasn't accidental) on an internal email, which said he wished he hadn't wasted his time with the quote, and I needed a miracle to get this done. He originally said he could get the rings for $3-5 a lbs, then he sends a quote for $110 a ring (which would be x3, because it has to have three rings to work). So we went from $3-5 a lbs, to a "make him go away" quote. They don't weight 22 lbs mounted on the shells.
I may have to make a few from plate. Its expensive, but I can make several rings from a 4X8 sheet, in different sizes as well. I cant mass produce at that level though. The costs would still be around $400 a unit, when everything is said and done. And that's just too much.

 

[Michael Raphael]

Yes. Ive been advised to use kickstarter by a few other people, and I would. But I still cant get a quote for manufacturing costs, so how much money do I need?

I also agree, with a global economy, an American made product isnt as important as a product consumers can afford. Truthfully after chasing American companies for two years trying to get even a response by email with little to no results, I would welcome an overseas company. The one in China I used for the prototypes didnt care if I wanted 1 or 100. They just couldnt get the finish and quality I am expecting. And Im not being picky, either. The rings are rough.

To me it doesnt matter where or how they are made. Even the material they are made from and the processes involved is up for negotiation. All I want is a working, quality product that people can afford to put on their drums. It doesnt matter how that gets done.

I guess my next step is to find ANY manufacturer and get a starting point. Ill also look into kickstarter more. At first glance, they want a project deadline, which I cant give them at this time. Also they want rewards for donations. I dont know what reward I could offer at this point. I can come up with something, Im sure. But I dont know how to address the deadline. Even if I came into some money, where do I get them made?

I have worked with kickstarter and currently am working on a new project. Albeit I am not a master I am more than willing to help perfect your page. I am having the same issue with producing my own product and therefore we have common theme. Message me if you want help.

My best advice is to make your page pop, get a high quality camera and video tape yourself explaining the product be honest, sincere, and bubbly. Just tell em what you would tell your grandma. KISS- keep it simple stupid. Add a lot of photos, of anything really, as long as it relates to your product. pictures, designs, sketches, you using it. anything!!!

 

[DrummerDad]

https://www.thefastlaneforum.com/your-goals-your-fastlane-plan/31001-designing-inventing-2.html#post292420

This is a link to my other thread. I added a few pictures, and a description. If I am missing something obvious, please tell me. I will be dealing mostly with people who have a basic understanding of percussion equipment. I am confident I have covered my bases in that department. What I am not good at is the media stuff. Facebook, twitter, youtube, even posting videos and pictures makes me ill. And the business stuff as well. I have never been involved with large numbers, or payroll, or any legal dealings. I have a lot to learn.

I will update the other thread when there is progress. I hope it will be this week.

 

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[Michael Raphael]

If you want my opinion dont just have the photos on a bed, make the photos like edgy hipstery even. Go to an abandoned house with mad graffiti everywhere or something that looks retro, than set up your drum set and take photos of that. It will pop a lot more, be more attractive as a whole, and definitely bring in some crowds.

 

[nextgen]

Sorry if I seem slow to respond. I work night shift, from 4pm-2:30am. I can respond at work sometimes, but its a PITA on the phone.

The reason I want to make sure I can manufacture them in bulk, at an affordable price is because of the responses from the NAMM show in 2010. There I met the producers of both major drum magazines, at separate times of course. They all loved the idea, and said it was unique, and that I had to make it. The response was unreal. While they were taking pictures, they told me they would not run them in the magazines yet, for two reasons. One it was a prototype. Two, because they had seen people bring a product out, without an infrastructure that could at least keep up with a small quantity of units, and they failed miserably. They both said, independently and on separate days, that if they released information on it, I would be swamped with requests. That is why I need to make sure I can at least keep up with a low quantity, and be able to move into a larger quantity when needed.

As far as licensing, I have tried talking to a few people, at the show, and even through contacts since. They have all been fruitless. I do still have a contact who can get me 20 minutes with a major percussion equipment manufacturer, since he recently had his product licensed through them. We have discussed it, and I think I will talk with them. But he feels they may not be interested directly. They don't really make anything close to it. Still worth a shot, but they are also in California. I will have to wait until I can attend the show out there, and that will cost close to $5k. I can attend the other show, here in TN, but a lot of the bigger names don't attend it.

As far as Famous drummers, I would be open to them as well, even if they aren't main stream. My original agreement with Ron from California was so close, he was going to invite a friend of his over for dinner, to pitch the idea to him. I wont mention the drummers name, but he is HUGE in the drumming community. I recently contacted Ron again, to see if he is still interested in trying to make this. We were at about 90% before, it would be a shame to leave it that close, especially since I now have a patent which was a concern for him before. He emailed back and said he was travelling, and would get back ASAP. So I might be able to still work this end. If we can find a way to get the quality gap closed. Ron had even had boxes made for shipping. We were that close.

I talk to both males and females, anyone who can help. I would also be interested in talking with drum techs, or drummers who travel as well. Anyone who knows the drummer and their needs. I only have two functioning units at the moment, and I would like to have a few more. It might be early for that. Im still interested. If Ron and I can get his friend interested, and maybe even put his name on it, holy crap...The possibilities. But we still have to get them made.

And Ill work on getting more pictures and videos on the site this weekend. I haven't fully committed to the site, because I don't want to get ahead of myself, and because Im a technological retard. I can make a you tube video, with a link, and possibly get a lot of interest, but I still need to make sure I can get them made. The last quote I received was outrageous. And the guy accidently copied me (maybe it wasn't accidental) on an internal email, which said he wished he hadn't wasted his time with the quote, and I needed a miracle to get this done. He originally said he could get the rings for $3-5 a lbs, then he sends a quote for $110 a ring (which would be x3, because it has to have three rings to work). So we went from $3-5 a lbs, to a "make him go away" quote. They don't weight 22 lbs mounted on the shells.
I may have to make a few from plate. Its expensive, but I can make several rings from a 4X8 sheet, in different sizes as well. I cant mass produce at that level though. The costs would still be around $400 a unit, when everything is said and done. And that's just too much.

You stated at the end that you can't mass produce at that level though. Make a few sets and sell them then make more and sell them make more then sell them. Then once you get to the point that you can't meet demand hire a person to make them in house. Make more sell them when that person that is producing them and can't meet demand hire another ect ect ect

 

[DrummerDad]

Yes that would normally be the way it is done. But it wouldn't be the same product. I would be using 6061-t6 aluminum, which typically is held to very tight standards. Its considered an aviation grade aluminum. FWIW it has a tensile strength of 45,000 psi (ultimate) and 40,000 (yield), and rates a 95 on the brinell hardness test. Very good aluminum. There are better ones, like 2024-t3 and 7075-t6, but the 6061 is very machine friendly. So I can machine these rings from a very high quality plate, and they would be amazing. Expensive, but very pricey. Then as production picks up, I cant keep using plate. To truly mass produce, I would need to use an extrusion and roll and weld it, or use forged rings. This should bring the price down, and speed up production but it is an inferior material. And casting them produced a very grainy and chalky material. It would be fine, until someone has to replace an insert or something. Then its useless. I don't want to start with a great product, then switch to junk later, or even a lower quality version. That's how you put yourself out of business.
Using plate also has a few other issues. To get the most for my money, I have to buy a 4ft x 8ft sheets. Of 1-1/2 inch thick aluminum. That will require machines to move. Even the 1/2 inch plate. With cast or forged rings or extrusions, I can store them at home, and use my garage as a base for awhile. I don't have room for a forklift, and I don't have a truck. And then I have to find a machinist in the area who will make them on a schedule that keeps customers happy. I don't see that happening.
Also there is a lot of waste with a plate. I can have them water jetted, and get concentric rings. So a 4 x 8 plate would yield 18 sets of rings, in the following sizes; 6,8,10,12,14,16, and 18 inches. This leaves me with 18- 4 inch block of wasted material, plus there is a 13" drum size that I cant accommodate in the plate with this setup, without losing two other sizes. And the 14 inch rings are the most popular. They fit a snare drum. Those I think will sell at almost 5 to 1 compared to the other rings.
This also doesn't account for the way they need to be sold. For example, the quick change consists of basically two parts, as far as the customer is concerned. A base ring or adapter ring, and a topset, which includes the two top rings and the head. You only need one base ring per drum. But you might need more topsets. Whats the point of having a quick change head, if there is nothing to interchange it with? I need to be able to produce the rings on a per ring basis. At the least the top two rings as a set, and the base ring individually. Its the only way it will work.
Im not trying to make excuses. I am worried about having a plan together for when these rings get some exposure. I have mentioned it before, but Im not sure if it was here or in my progress thread. When I went to the NAMM show in 2010, the editors of both major drum magazines, along with several other industry professionals, came to see the prototype. They all loved it and took pictures. They said it had to be released. Then they told me to make sure I had an infrastructure in place to mass produce. They had all seen a person make a product, release it, then fall short when trying to keep up with demand. This led to failure.
Im certain if I release this at the NAMM show, it will get percussion product of the year. The percussion industry is stagnant. Nothing really new has come out since the cable driven hi-hat and I think that was in the 80s. But I have to make sure I can keep up with a reasonable amount of demand. And I don't want to have any hiccups in the road caused by poor quality, or trying to restructure how I have them made. If I take one to the show, it has to be a production piece.

 

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[CommonCents]

Of all the companies that expressed interest in idea but have balked as of now, what are the specific reasons holding them back from pursuing your idea? I'd want to know the nitty gritty of why they balked, and what needs to happen to get them to take a shot at it. Maybe you can circle back and ask them for their detailed opinion/advice???

What are the specific situations where a quick change head is most beneficial?

live performances?
studio/stage set where bands use the same set and want a quick change of heads?

Maybe it seems cool on the surface but what is the real value of a quick change to the musician?

 

[nextgen]

Well your presenting yourself with one hell of an argument why NOT to develop your idea.

 

[JackTackett]

Drummer dad, first congrats on taking action and plugging away, kudus to you! I have a friend who imports from china so I'll echo what others have said here and look for other factories in china. Next, while I've found this to be a great site, I suggest you expand your search, call to Chinese embassy and see if some one there can help you find someone to give you a quote.
Also reach out to any tech schools, community colleges near you and ask to speak to an instructor. They may not know anything but they may know someone who does. See if you can talk to a machinist or tool maker at a local shop they maybe able to help as well.
Don't give up and best of luck,
Jack

 

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[Stephen]

DrummerDad, first off this is really cool. Second, I seem to be replying to all of your posts tonight, haha. I actually have been a drummer for about 12 years and am still really close with someone who is huge in the drum arena. We are talking connections with all of the world's best drummers and drum companies. He would bring them in to do clinics and everything. He actually got me a private lesson with Marco Minnemann from Germany, who has a drum roll of over 500 bpm per hand. Anyways, let me know if your problem is not solved yet and I can see if he has any good insights that could help. The other thing I was going to say is that when I invented a product, I had my prototype done in the US and then when I manufactured in China, it was also crap quality...the first time! So then what I did, was used that initial order to talk to other manufacturers and basically pitted them against each other to want to earn my business. I asked about 6 different Chinese manufacturers to make their best product according to my specs and sure enough, one was the clear winner and I am even happier than I was with my US prototype. I would not give up on China yet. There are some really crappy companies there, just like there are here. Just work with them until you find a good one. It definitely takes time and I probably wasted about $2K on crappy product before finding what I wanted, but you don't have to. I was just stupid not to do the sample thing in the beginning. Let me know if I can help you any further, as I know the exact frustration you are going through and it is definitely solvable.

 

[DrummerDad]

Thanks to all those who have offered help.
I just got off the phone with Ron, the partner who got the first few done. He has agreed to open up the line of manufacturing that we previously had. We will "tweak" the quality issue, and see if we cant get a few working units. Im hoping to get 15-25 made, and ready for the NAMM show in July.
Here is the rub now. And tell me if this is an issue, or if Im over thinking this. We are sand casting these. The aluminum is porous, and grainy. It works, but its not as strong as I would like it to be. Plus the finish of the sand casting, even after machining its a bit, rough. They will have to be powdercoated. But my thinking is, at least we can get an acceptable product out in the hands of the public. See how it will be accepted. Then I can switch to die casting, or forging later. This allows me to test the market a bit, and wait to see if there are any complaints over something I have missed. When we get sufficient funds available (close to $25k both ways) to make the move to forging or die casting, we can. The unit price will go down, quality will go up. And at least it is something. Am I missing anything?