For anyone who wants to become a freelancer (first)...

[circleme]

In the last months I could notice some threads about "freelancing" in this forum and I could read out that there are some people - to my surprise - who consider my way as a freelancer as "great" or "worthwhile".

In the course of this thread, I would like to clarify a few things from my perspective as a freelancer, after a rather drastic event took place in my case last week, which is also a kind of mental reappraisal of this topic for me. Briefly about my journey so far and why I am here:

School --> Slowlaner (Job) --> University --> Slowlaner (Freelancer) --> Transition to Fastlane (current)

The main reason why I considered freelancing was purely economic. Nothing more, nothing less. The reason (example):

• Salaried hourly rate: $20 x 8 hours daily x 5= $800 for a week of work.
• Freelancer hourly rate: 100$ x 8 hours daily = 800$ for the same output (800$ for one day of work, where I would normally have to work a week at the job).

That sounds pretty nice for now, but:

• It took me over 2 years to get to this point
• I don't have/had ONE boss, but several, who got on my nerves
• You are constantly contacted, even if your business hours are from X-Y; the customer doesn't care at all
• You constantly have to justify yourself for certain other activities (like charging for point 3); customers only want to pay for the operational service, but not for things like support or queries
• Your performance is often not valued at all (you are just a part of a project and have to bring economic benefit, that's it!)
• You can never really switch off (my pricing model was on retainer basis, this is not necessarily the case for every freelancer, but I wanted MRR and clients mostly didn't care about my vacation (not everyone either, but some)
• You realize that you actually created a job that was initially considered better, but got worse as time went on
• ...

I could probably list more points and I'm sure there are a few others on this forum who have had similar experiences as freelancers and would have more points up their sleeves as well, but I think the cons have come out pretty well.

Then some time ago I dedicated myself to the book TMF and very much questioned my status quo as a freelancer. I knew I needed to change something, but didn't know how yet. A few weeks ago, I created a thread here on this forum looking for help on how to get towards Fastlane in addition to my freelancing. Terrific ideas came from MJ himself and other great forum members, all of which I took to heart. I decided to drastically reduce the days I freelance to focus more on my Fastlane project.

And how well does this approach work so far?

Little to none. And this is exactly where I would agree with everyone else who doesn't recommend freelancing as an alternative to a job either. Not only because of the seven points I already mentioned, but also because of the fact that you never really find proper time to push the essentials: Starting a fastlane business. Maybe it's just me, but running both things in parallel doesn't work. I tried to make it clear to my customers that I can only be available for them on a certain day. The output: They don't give a shit. If they have a problem, they will contact me on a day that doesn't suit me. After all, they spend money on my services and therefore have a certain claim. I am the problem, not the customer.

So last week I decided to quit freelancing altogether, because it seems to be the only plausible way for me to really take care of my Fastlane business.

Of course, you could argue that freelancing also gave me the skills I needed for Fastlane, and it did to some extent. But if I could turn back time again, I would start a Fastlane business right away and do without the freelance crap. Instead of trying or failing and learning what works and what doesn't for two years, I put the time into what at the end of the day is actually a risky endeavor as well (it's not as easy as some think to just be a successful freelancer overnight, let alone get to a full-time income level with it). I definitely wouldn't do it that way again, but am looking positively towards the years ahead.

I would like to highlight @Kak 's thread here again, as I also think that it really makes little to no sense to be a freelancer first and then start your Fastlane business. Also I think that freelancing really has nothing at all to do with entrepreneurship (see point 7) and also I would find it a pity if more and more threads about this topic (e.g. "Is freelancing worth it?") are created.

NOTABLE! - HOT! - IDEA - You Don’t Have to be a Freelancer

If now the question still arises, how I make my living:

• In exactly 10 weeks the last open invoice will be paid and at the same time the last retainer will expire.
• I have "saved" a certain buffer for this project, which covers my fixed costs and also allows me to make business investments - even if only small ones.
• If the lean period is too long, I will think about something, I can think of something (10h per week mini-job or a one-off project now and then).

And for anyone still wondering if they shouldn't start as a freelancer first? No, really not.

 

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[BizyDad]

I have no idea what you do. This thread literally flies in the face of the entry point argument.

It’s not a good entry point.

Because one inexperienced entreprenuer said so. Let's examine all the limiting beliefs presented here.

The main reason why I considered freelancing was purely economic. Nothing more, nothing less. The reason (example):

• Salaried hourly rate: $20 x 8 hours daily x 5= $800 for a week of work.
• Freelancer hourly rate: 100$ x 8 hours daily = 800$ for the same output (800$ for one day of work, where I would normally have to work a week at the job).

That sounds pretty nice for now, but:

• It took me over 2 years to get to this point

It took you only 2 years to 5X your income. Well, that's actually more aggressive a timeline than @Antifragile recommends in his scaling thread. So doing pretty good there. Proof of concept.

I don't have/had ONE boss, but several, who got on my nerves

No. This is a mindset issue. You see yourself as owing them. And if you keep feeling this way, imagine when you have 1000 customers in your fastlane business. Gosh, how will you react to your first bad review? Your 30th bad review?

You are constantly contacted, even if your business hours are from X-Y; the customer doesn't care at all

Sounds like you have a challenge in setting proper boundaries and handling conflict. Both of these are SKILLS an entreprenuer will need to learn to go fastlane. A leader needs to learn these as well.

You constantly have to justify yourself for certain other activities (like charging for point 3); customers only want to pay for the operational service, but not for things like support or queries

This again sounds like a boundaries or conflict issue. This can also be solved with higher prices upfront. A person with good sales skills can overcome any of these challenges. Would you say you are a good sales person or do you still have room to grow?

Your performance is often not valued at all (you are just a part of a project and have to bring economic benefit, that's it!)

That is how it starts. But as you grow your skills you can become someone the client turns to to solve their other issues. That's how you transition from freelancer to agency.

You can never really switch off

That's a you issue.

Also easily solved. Turn off your phone. Hire additional staff. When I took 10 days off recently, my clients didn't even notice. But I did have to put the proper systems in place to get to that. When I first started and I took a week off, i would cut my retainer by 1/4 for that month and let everyone know ahead of time.

It's that simple.

Your theory answers your question. 1:1 that's how it was for me. The time until I learned the skill (singular) took a limited time. After that, I went through it - more or less - over and over again for each client. The approach changed only minimally, since the initial situation of the customer was often completely different from that of the others. However, since only this one skill was asked for, learning another skill would not really have been effective. All in all, you become stultified over time and very soon feel pure stagnation. That was almost the worst thing for me, because I've always liked to learn something new and test my limits.

As I've pointed out, you had an opportunity to learn several skills that a fastlane business owner will need and most of the people chatting on here possess. You didn't see the opportunity before your eyes and just decided, meh, it doesn't work.

And the experienced guys are in here like, good for you kid! Smh.

You realize that you actually created a job that was initially considered better, but got worse as time went on

Your comments above show you still have an external locus of control. I'm surprised @Kak didn't call you out for that.

He normally does. But I guess if the argument agrees with him he'll abandon his normal tactics.

So last week I decided to quit freelancing altogether, because it seems to be the only plausible way for me to really take care of my Fastlane business.

You decided freelancing doesn't work for you. And you are deciding to do something about it. AWESOME! Congrats. Your life is your own.

But this thread could've just as easily been about selling cigar boxes and failing or not excelling at that, and that wouldn't mean that no one should sell cigar boxes.

You probably will stop at least one more fastlane attempt before you really make it. That doesn't make the attempt worthless. The only thing that makes the attempt worthless is your attitude towards it.

This thread literally flies in the face of the entry point argument.

This thread is one data point. A valid one. @lex_deville says the same thing.

But it doesn't change the fact that several start here and go on to success. This thread is an opinion. Not fact.

You can’t say that here.

Prepare for the mean girls club to attack you in 10… 9… 8…

BTW congrats. You are on the way to Freedom.

Now get ready for everybody to tell you why your first hand experience is wrong.

His opinion doesn’t mesh with the money changers. Therein… his experience is wrong. Clearly he did it wrong.

Where's all the tough talk for this kid who cries because having customers is too hard? I thought you were the new HBIC around here.

Why are you coddling him, but others don't get the same bleeding heart attitude?

2. Do you think getting a job is a better entry point?

It absolutely can be. There is nothing wrong with that choice either.

There is no right answer here fellas. The right entry point is

THE ONE THAT GETS YOU STARTED ON THE PATH

Can we just stop the bickering now?

All you geniuses can't see the truth because ya gotta be right instead of being practical.

 

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[MJ DeMarco]

@circleme -- really appreciate that you are sharing your experience.

As @Andy Black says, "JUST START" -- and you've started, discovered some things, and are plotting your moves forward. Good for you.

As others have stated, there are some mindset issues (either as a freelancer or a Fastlaner) that could be problematic.

Some users have done a good job of pointing those out.

Fastlaners have bosses too. Entrepreneurship can be 24/7 early in the game.

So a lot of your freelancing experience won't rectify itself in a Fastlane venture, at least not in the early stages. Lot of those things can be tackled with leadership and delegation.

The good news is, there is a meaningful upside moving forward.

 

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[Vigilante]

In the last months I could notice some threads about "freelancing" in this forum and I could read out that there are some people - to my surprise - who consider my way as a freelancer as "great" or "worthwhile".

In the course of this thread, I would like to clarify a few things from my perspective as a freelancer, after a rather drastic event took place in my case last week, which is also a kind of mental reappraisal of this topic for me. Briefly about my journey so far and why I am here:

School --> Slowlaner (Job) --> University --> Slowlaner (Freelancer) --> Transition to Fastlane (current)

The main reason why I considered freelancing was purely economic. Nothing more, nothing less. The reason (example):

• Salaried hourly rate: $20 x 8 hours daily x 5= $800 for a week of work.
• Freelancer hourly rate: 100$ x 8 hours daily = 800$ for the same output (800$ for one day of work, where I would normally have to work a week at the job).

That sounds pretty nice for now, but:

• It took me over 2 years to get to this point
• I don't have/had ONE boss, but several, who got on my nerves
• You are constantly contacted, even if your business hours are from X-Y; the customer doesn't care at all
• You constantly have to justify yourself for certain other activities (like charging for point 3); customers only want to pay for the operational service, but not for things like support or queries
• Your performance is often not valued at all (you are just a part of a project and have to bring economic benefit, that's it!)
• You can never really switch off (my pricing model was on retainer basis, this is not necessarily the case for every freelancer, but I wanted MRR and clients mostly didn't care about my vacation (not everyone either, but some)
• You realize that you actually created a job that was initially considered better, but got worse as time went on
• ...

I could probably list more points and I'm sure there are a few others on this forum who have had similar experiences as freelancers and would have more points up their sleeves as well, but I think the cons have come out pretty well.

Then some time ago I dedicated myself to the book TMF and very much questioned my status quo as a freelancer. I knew I needed to change something, but didn't know how yet. A few weeks ago, I created a thread here on this forum looking for help on how to get towards Fastlane in addition to my freelancing. Terrific ideas came from MJ himself and other great forum members, all of which I took to heart. I decided to drastically reduce the days I freelance to focus more on my Fastlane project.

And how well does this approach work so far?

Little to none. And this is exactly where I would agree with everyone else who doesn't recommend freelancing as an alternative to a job either. Not only because of the seven points I already mentioned, but also because of the fact that you never really find proper time to push the essentials: Starting a fastlane business. Maybe it's just me, but running both things in parallel doesn't work. I tried to make it clear to my customers that I can only be available for them on a certain day. The output: They don't give a shit. If they have a problem, they will contact me on a day that doesn't suit me. After all, they spend money on my services and therefore have a certain claim. I am the problem, not the customer.

So last week I decided to quit freelancing altogether, because it seems to be the only plausible way for me to really take care of my Fastlane business.

Of course, you could argue that freelancing also gave me the skills I needed for Fastlane, and it did to some extent. But if I could turn back time again, I would start a Fastlane business right away and do without the freelance crap. Instead of trying or failing and learning what works and what doesn't for two years, I put the time into what at the end of the day is actually a risky endeavor as well (it's not as easy as some think to just be a successful freelancer overnight, let alone get to a full-time income level with it). I definitely wouldn't do it that way again, but am looking positively towards the years ahead.

I would like to highlight @Kak 's thread here again, as I also think that it really makes little to no sense to be a freelancer first and then start your Fastlane business. Also I think that freelancing really has nothing at all to do with entrepreneurship (see point 7) and also I would find it a pity if more and more threads about this topic (e.g. "Is freelancing worth it?") are created.

NOTABLE! - HOT! - IDEA - You Don’t Have to be a Freelancer

If now the question still arises, how I make my living:

• In exactly 10 weeks the last open invoice will be paid and at the same time the last retainer will expire.
• I have "saved" a certain buffer for this project, which covers my fixed costs and also allows me to make business investments - even if only small ones.
• If the lean period is too long, I will think about something, I can think of something (10h per week mini-job or a one-off project now and then).

And for anyone still wondering if they shouldn't start as a freelancer first? No, really not.

You can’t say that here.

Prepare for the mean girls club to attack you in 10… 9… 8…

BTW congrats. You are on the way to Freedom.

Now get ready for everybody to tell you why your first hand experience is wrong.

 

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[Kak]

In the last months I could notice some threads about "freelancing" in this forum and I could read out that there are some people - to my surprise - who consider my way as a freelancer as "great" or "worthwhile".

In the course of this thread, I would like to clarify a few things from my perspective as a freelancer, after a rather drastic event took place in my case last week, which is also a kind of mental reappraisal of this topic for me. Briefly about my journey so far and why I am here:

School --> Slowlaner (Job) --> University --> Slowlaner (Freelancer) --> Transition to Fastlane (current)

The main reason why I considered freelancing was purely economic. Nothing more, nothing less. The reason (example):

• Salaried hourly rate: $20 x 8 hours daily x 5= $800 for a week of work.
• Freelancer hourly rate: 100$ x 8 hours daily = 800$ for the same output (800$ for one day of work, where I would normally have to work a week at the job).

That sounds pretty nice for now, but:

• It took me over 2 years to get to this point
• I don't have/had ONE boss, but several, who got on my nerves
• You are constantly contacted, even if your business hours are from X-Y; the customer doesn't care at all
• You constantly have to justify yourself for certain other activities (like charging for point 3); customers only want to pay for the operational service, but not for things like support or queries
• Your performance is often not valued at all (you are just a part of a project and have to bring economic benefit, that's it!)
• You can never really switch off (my pricing model was on retainer basis, this is not necessarily the case for every freelancer, but I wanted MRR and clients mostly didn't care about my vacation (not everyone either, but some)
• You realize that you actually created a job that was initially considered better, but got worse as time went on
• ...

I could probably list more points and I'm sure there are a few others on this forum who have had similar experiences as freelancers and would have more points up their sleeves as well, but I think the cons have come out pretty well.

Then some time ago I dedicated myself to the book TMF and very much questioned my status quo as a freelancer. I knew I needed to change something, but didn't know how yet. A few weeks ago, I created a thread here on this forum looking for help on how to get towards Fastlane in addition to my freelancing. Terrific ideas came from MJ himself and other great forum members, all of which I took to heart. I decided to drastically reduce the days I freelance to focus more on my Fastlane project.

And how well does this approach work so far?

Little to none. And this is exactly where I would agree with everyone else who doesn't recommend freelancing as an alternative to a job either. Not only because of the seven points I already mentioned, but also because of the fact that you never really find proper time to push the essentials: Starting a fastlane business. Maybe it's just me, but running both things in parallel doesn't work. I tried to make it clear to my customers that I can only be available for them on a certain day. The output: They don't give a shit. If they have a problem, they will contact me on a day that doesn't suit me. After all, they spend money on my services and therefore have a certain claim. I am the problem, not the customer.

So last week I decided to quit freelancing altogether, because it seems to be the only plausible way for me to really take care of my Fastlane business.

Of course, you could argue that freelancing also gave me the skills I needed for Fastlane, and it did to some extent. But if I could turn back time again, I would start a Fastlane business right away and do without the freelance crap. Instead of trying or failing and learning what works and what doesn't for two years, I put the time into what at the end of the day is actually a risky endeavor as well (it's not as easy as some think to just be a successful freelancer overnight, let alone get to a full-time income level with it). I definitely wouldn't do it that way again, but am looking positively towards the years ahead.

I would like to highlight @Kak 's thread here again, as I also think that it really makes little to no sense to be a freelancer first and then start your Fastlane business. Also I think that freelancing really has nothing at all to do with entrepreneurship (see point 7) and also I would find it a pity if more and more threads about this topic (e.g. "Is freelancing worth it?") are created.

NOTABLE! - HOT! - IDEA - You Don’t Have to be a Freelancer

If now the question still arises, how I make my living:

• In exactly 10 weeks the last open invoice will be paid and at the same time the last retainer will expire.
• I have "saved" a certain buffer for this project, which covers my fixed costs and also allows me to make business investments - even if only small ones.
• If the lean period is too long, I will think about something, I can think of something (10h per week mini-job or a one-off project now and then).

And for anyone still wondering if they shouldn't start as a freelancer first? No, really not.

Great post and a very interesting perspective.

I have a serious question. You mentioned your plan to use freelancing as a bridge to the fastlane and how it was nonsense. Most people think that’s how they’ll capitalize their next venture, learn skills for their next venture, and be free to work on their next venture.

Did you amass a great deal of capital you are going to deploy on your business, or did it turn out not to be as financially helpful as you thought?

My theory: it’s a job, most people live paycheck to paycheck or maybe a modestly better than that when they aren’t thriving with a massive income. It’s hard not to try to be comfortable and I can’t blame anyone making a small income for not saving 30+%.

A business should be able to reach outside of your own resources anyway.

Did you learn a ton of skills that are super fastlane?

My theory: It is a repetitive job and you sell the skill over and over while becoming more and more bitter. Maybe that’s just my programming to hate repetitive things, but it seems to me there’s rarely anything new or challenging once the ball is rolling.

A business should be able to reach outside of your own skill set anyway.

Was the freedom to work for yourself all it was cracked up to be?

You already seem to think no.

So to me this trifecta of why freelancing is awesome that so many people seem to present is not rooted in reality. It’s just another comforting lie they tell themselves as they settle for less when they seriously don’t have to. The skills needed to work up to a living freelance income, which are not negligible, can be put to better use.

Anyway. Thank you for you write up, I’m curious about your thoughts on my post here. I also welcome you to the a**hole club for questioning the well protected virtue of mediocrity.

Also, where are you from? Many have made it pertinent to the discussion.

 

[circleme]

Did you amass a great deal of capital you are going to deploy on your business, or did it turn out not to be as financially helpful as you thought?

Approximately 2x my previous employee salary. However, after taking about 2 years to get to that factor, I would say no, not really even from an economic perspective in my particular case. However, if I had continued freelancing like this now AND never heard of Fastlane, it would already be profitable (compared to a job) if the order situation remained the same.

Your theory holds true.

Did you learn a ton of skills that are super fastlane?

Your theory answers your question. 1:1 that's how it was for me. The time until I learned the skill (singular) took a limited time. After that, I went through it - more or less - over and over again for each client. The approach changed only minimally, since the initial situation of the customer was often completely different from that of the others. However, since only this one skill was asked for, learning another skill would not really have been effective. All in all, you become stultified over time and very soon feel pure stagnation. That was almost the worst thing for me, because I've always liked to learn something new and test my limits.

Was the freedom to work for yourself all it was cracked up to be?

I have to confess that somewhere along the line, that feeling set in for the first 1-2 clients. However, 1-2 clients were not enough to cover all my expenses and I had to take on several clients. At the same time, as the number of clients increased, my freedom level - if you will - became lower and lower.

"It’s just another comforting lie they tell themselves as they settle for less." (Kak) (can't insert in multi-quote for some reason)

That's absolutely true. Unfortunately, some people don't know any better and freelancing is very often propagated as THE way out of the hamster wheel. Especially in social media nowadays.

 

[Black_Dragon43]

Your post is exactly what I said. I wouldn’t engage in when I came back here.

Feel free to resume your posture of imaginary bitch in charge.

You know everything there is to know anyway so I can’t help you nor are you asking for help.

I’m 0% interested in Internet bitch fights.

If you’re going to get your feelings hurt every time I post something you might just want to smash that ignore button.

Damn, @Vigilante is the same wild bull I remember from 1-2 years ago!

 

[circleme]

And since your last post is a pretty good end to this "disscusion", I really appreciate your input, and I still want to respond to @AnNvr 's comment,

"Because I am hard, you will not like me. But the more you hate me, the more you will learn. I am hard but I am fair".

I gave you another little gift @BizyDad :

And yes, I was very productive today working on my Fastlane business and NO, I was not a Photoshop freelancer before.

 

[Vigilante]

Haha, hey @Black_Dragon43 we have another person with “bias.”

His opinion doesn’t mesh with the money changers. Therein… his experience is wrong. Clearly he did it wrong.

#FiverrRules

 

[circleme]

I think what we are both trying to say is there are some other skills you can/should learn on your way to the fastlane. But don't worry about that just now. And you know, some people had agendas on this thread that can get tiring.

All of your initial advice is 100% legitimate to me. These are things that I definitely need to get a handle on. Only they don't affect me anymore in a freelancer to client context. However, it is clear to me that I need some of these skills on my fastlane journey as well. As already mentioned, I take your input to heart and thank you again for it.

Maybe everyone can focus on this. Have you given any further thought to your new direction? Let's brainstorm. I odn't kno much about your other skills, just that you freelanced...

Sure. I'm an ex-software dev who thought a business degree was right for him. Well, that wasn't necessarily the best move, we'll skip now My direction is pretty clear so far: I am dedicated to solving problems through SaaS solutions. In this field I can ideally combine the skills I have learned so far and it corresponds to the CENTS business model. In the course of this thread I have not mentioned my skills, because I wanted to keep the whole topic rather generic and it would have done nothing to the matter.

 

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[Vigilante]

One thing I noticed about you, you’re fiercely loyal to your friends. Good quality to have!

You’re probably just detecting my finely tuned dumbass repellant

 

[BizyDad]

Prepare for the mean girls club to attack you in 10… 9… 8…

I’m 0% interested in Internet bitch fights.

*Cough* *cough*

Didn't realize you were so sensitive. Or hypocritical. Don't dish if you can't take...

If you’re going to get your feelings hurt every time I post something you might just want to smash that ignore button.

I don't do that. I do stand up to bullies though.

I said something contrary to you once. Once. And you're making it about feelings. I thought I was dealing with a grown man who is "back to end it".

Well then end this stupid inane argument.

Welcome back, BTW.

 

[Simon Angel]

Because one inexperienced entreprenuer said so. Let's examine all the limiting beliefs presented here.



It took you only 2 years to 5X your income. Well, that's actually more aggressive a timeline than @Antifragile recommends in his scaling thread. So doing pretty good there. Proof of concept.



No. This is a mindset issue. You see yourself as owing them. And if you keep feeling this way, imagine when you have 1000 customers in your fastlane business. Gosh, how will you react to your first bad review? Your 30th bad review?



Sounds like you have a challenge in setting proper boundaries and handling conflict. Both of these are SKILLS an entreprenuer will need to learn to go fastlane. A leader needs to learn these as well.



This again sounds like a boundaries or conflict issue. This can also be solved with higher prices upfront. A person with good sales skills can overcome any of these challenges. Would you say you are a good sales person or do you still have room to grow?



That is how it starts. But as you grow your skills you can become someone the client turns to to solve their other issues. That's how you transition from freelancer to agency.



That's a you issue.

Also easily solved. Turn off your phone. Hire additional staff. When I took 10 days off recently, my clients didn't even notice. But I did have to put the proper systems in place to get to that. When I first started and I took a week off, i would cut my retainer by 1/4 for that month and let everyone know ahead of time.

It's that simple.



As I've pointed out, you had an opportunity to learn several skills that a fastlane business owner will need and most of the people chatting on here possess. You didn't see the opportunity before your eyes and just decided, meh, it doesn't work.

And the experienced guys are in here like, good for you kid! Smh.



Your comments above show you still have an external locus of control. I'm surprised @Kak didn't call you out for that.

He normally does. But I guess if the argument agrees with him he'll abandon his normal tactics.



You decided freelancing doesn't work for you. And you are deciding to do something about it. AWESOME! Congrats. Your life is your own.

But this thread could've just as easily been about selling cigar boxes and failing or not excelling at that, and that wouldn't mean that no one should sell cigar boxes.

You probably will stop at least one more fastlane attempt before you really make it. That doesn't make the attempt worthless. The only thing that makes the attempt worthless is your attitude towards it.



This thread is one data point. A valid one. @lex_deville says the same thing.

But it doesn't change the fact that several start here and go on to success. This thread is an opinion. Not fact.




Where's all the tough talk for this kid who cries because having customers is too hard? I thought you were the new HBIC around here.

Why are you coddling him, but others don't get the same bleeding heart attitude?



It absolutely can be. There is nothing wrong with that choice either.

There is no right answer here fellas. The right entry point is

THE ONE THAT GETS YOU STARTED ON THE PATH

Can we just stop the bickering now?

All you geniuses can't see the truth because ya gotta be right instead of being practical.

You addressed the exact same issues I wanted to address while reading the OP.

OP is new to entrepreneurship and client management. He has issues setting boundaries and expectations and willingly trades his time for $ rather than added value for $. He then proceeds to blame freelancing or whatever. Basically everything but himself.

Forum veterans fall crazy in love with the guy because his flawed thinking fits their narrative—which is also flawed. They then pat themselves on the back for shitting on the freelancers. It's almost satire at this point.

 

[Antifragile]

It took you only 2 years to 5X your income. Well, that's actually more aggressive a timeline than @Antifragile recommends in his scaling thread. So doing pretty good there. Proof of concept.

Building a foundation for the tallest high rise in the world…

… takes longer than that for a single family home.

 

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[circleme]

You didn't see the opportunity before your eyes and just decided, meh, it doesn't work.

Everything worked out wonderfully from the point of view of a slowlaner. In my opinion, I definitely saw and realized the possibility that I would have to switch from the slowlane to the fastlane.

I hope the original poster takes my feedback to heart. Struggling with boundary setting, being overwhelmed and setting the wrong expectations are definitely things we should help him with as he progresses into his next venture.

I take your feedback to heart, even if I do not understand all the points, although I do my best here to look at everything as objectively as possible. Maybe with the best will in the world I am not yet ready to understand everything, maybe I will understand it only in the course of my Fastlane journey.

 

[Black_Dragon43]

Haha, hey @Black_Dragon43 we have another person with “bias.”

It can’t be that freelancing was a letdown… It’s bias.

If freelancing is perfect, then why am I not a freelancer anymore, and haven't been for 7-8+ years? Freelancing is never going to be fastlane, but it's a good entry point.

 

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[Kak]

If freelancing is perfect, then why am I not a freelancer anymore, and haven't been for 7-8+ years? Freelancing is never going to be fastlane, but it's a good entry point.

I have no idea what you do. This thread literally flies in the face of the entry point argument.

It’s not a good entry point.

 

[SeeYouAtTheTop]

ChatGPT says
An agency is a company that offers a range of services to clients, typically in a specific field or industry. They employ a team of professionals who work together to complete projects for their clients. Agencies can vary in size, from small boutique firms to large international corporations.

On the other hand, a freelancer is an individual who offers their services to clients on a project-by-project basis. They typically work independently and are self-employed. Freelancers can work in a variety of industries and offer specialized skills or expertise in a particular area.

The main difference between an agency and a freelancer is the structure of their business model. An agency has a team of professionals with different skills and expertise, while a freelancer works alone and offers a specific set of skills. An agency may be better suited for larger projects that require a diverse range of skills and resources, while a freelancer may be a good option for smaller projects that require specialized skills or individual attention.

Lol I deserved that response. Good reminder to think through my question before asking it.

 

[Vigilante]

*Cough* *cough*

Didn't realize you were so sensitive. Or hypocritical. Don't dish if you can't take...



I don't do that. I do stand up to bullies though.

I said something contrary to you once. Once. And you're making it about feelings. I thought I was dealing with a grown man who is "back to end it".

Well then end this stupid inane argument.

Welcome back, BTW.

Actually, I am back here to invest in people and draw from their energy.

I’m sensing neither of those things will apply to you, which is OK.

The original post was thoughtful, articulate, insightful, and valuable to the forum. If you want a thread about you make a progress thread. Let’s try to un-derail (is that a word?) this valuable original post.

 

[BizyDad]

Actually, I am back here to invest in people and draw from their energy.

I’m sensing neither of those things will apply to you, which is OK.

The original post was thoughtful, articulate, insightful, and valuable to the forum. If you want a thread about you make a progress thread. Let’s try to un-derail (is that a word?) this valuable original post.

Yeah, I definitely haven't spent 4 years on the forum trying to lift people up, solve problems, defuse stupid arguments, and build businesses. All these likes are someone's idea of a joke I suppose.

I hope the original poster takes my feedback to heart. Struggling with boundary setting, being overwhelmed and setting the wrong expectations are definitely things we should help him with as he progresses into his next venture.

I'm not making it about me. I'm trying to help this young man with some tough love.

And help others who might read this and think freelancing couldn't possibly work for them. When it could be a good starting point.

I feel like there's a fight happening on the forum right now haha.

Families fight. Vigilante just doesn't realize we're actually long lost brothers yet.

 

[circleme]

You addressed the exact same issues I wanted to address while reading the OP.

OP is new to entrepreneurship and client management. He has issues setting boundaries and expectations and willingly trades his time for $ rather than added value for $. He then proceeds to blame freelancing or whatever. Basically everything but himself.

Forum veterans fall crazy in love with the guy because his flawed thinking fits their narrative—which is also flawed. They then pat themselves on the back for shitting on the freelancers. It's almost satire at this point.

Like, ffs. What's going on?

As I wrote earlier, I may not yet be ready to fully comprehend your thought processes, BUT.

I got into freelancing WITHOUT THE knowledge of the Fastlane. I NEVER had the intention to somehow turn freelancing into a fastlane here - unlike what you (BizDad and you) seem to think. I have of course made many mistakes, but to ascribe me here now the "The OP is the problem and is himself to blame for it" card I think is extremely suspicious.

The whole point of my thread is that I have realized that freelancing is a slowlane, which I don't want to continue like this and now - after I have the THEORETICAL knowledge about the fastlane - I will start my first fastlane experience. I do not see the problem.

 

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[Black_Dragon43]

Just two years older, and maybe dumber.

One thing I noticed about you, you’re fiercely loyal to your friends. Good quality to have!

 

[Simon Angel]

@circleme

Sorry for the late reply, personal life took precedence last night.

Here are some things that stood out to me from your OP:

The main reason why I considered freelancing was purely economic. Nothing more, nothing less. The reason (example):

• Salaried hourly rate: $20 x 8 hours daily x 5= $800 for a week of work.
• Freelancer hourly rate: 100$ x 8 hours daily = 800$ for the same output (800$ for one day of work, where I would normally have to work a week at the job).

That's a decent hourly rate, but I'd abolish hourly rates altogether and instead negotiate fixed rates with clients and/or commission-based pay.

For example, I used to write emails for $50/h when I was starting out with email marketing. I had clients who felt I was taking too long to write a single email and were prone to micromanaging me.

So for my next clients, I began proposing a fixed monthly rate that basically amounts to $150-200/h and we were ecstatic about it. For them, it was because they knew exactly how much I was going to charge them every month, and, after averaging out the revenue and profit I made them over the past few months, they knew I was making them a LOT of money.

For me, it was because I really only had to put in about 5 hours of work per month to get them the majority of their results.

The thing is that when you make people a lot of money, they get the impression that you must've spent a lot of time doing that for them. Which, as I said, isn't the case.

But if I were to actually propose they pay me $200/h, I can assure you they'd be very hesitant to agree.

I don't have/had ONE boss, but several, who got on my nerves

You have to position yourself as an independent contractor and NOT as an employee. Clients, whether intentionally or not, will test your boundaries all the time.

You owe yourself (and your client, for that matter) to set expectations from the get-go about your role in their business. If you truly know your shit, then act and talk like it. Because at the end of the day, results are all that matter, and if you've got the track record to back you up, you can essentially tell your clients that:

• You will control the process. If they have a problem with it, they can find someone else.
• You will not tolerate being micromanaged. If they have a problem with it, they can find someone else.
• You will not be treated as an employee but as a business partner essentially. If they have a problem with it, they can find someone else.
• You will openly accept ideas, suggestions, and client feedback but if your way is already getting them stellar results/completing objectives in time, then you will not follow them. And if they'd like to have it another way, they already know what they can do.

Now, this doesn't mean you have to LITERALLY tell them that. Just like that dude nobody messed with in high school because he seemed like he could tear you a new a**hole (even though nobody has EVER seen him fight!), the way you interact with and carry yourself around your clients should subconsciously—for the most part—communicate this. It comes with experience.

You are constantly contacted, even if your business hours are from X-Y; the customer doesn't care at all

Again, set expectations and boundaries. Plus, nobody is forcing you to get back to them outside of your business hours. If they ever give you shit for it, remind them that you do not work at the hours they reached out to you.

Give them a solid time estimate on the deliverables. Do your thing. And once you deliver, be open to feedback and criticism and work with your clients to make them happy...

Or tell them that their suggestions, although appreciated, won't actually lead to better results because of X and Y. If that's actually the case, of course.

You constantly have to justify yourself for certain other activities (like charging for point 3); customers only want to pay for the operational service, but not for things like support or queries

That's another communication error. Refer to what I wrote above.

Your performance is often not valued at all (you are just a part of a project and have to bring economic benefit, that's it!)

Seek credit where credit is due. Be very vocal about your contributions to the success of the project so that everyone from the top to the bottom of the food chain knows you're The Man.

You can never really switch off (my pricing model was on retainer basis, this is not necessarily the case for every freelancer, but I wanted MRR and clients mostly didn't care about my vacation (not everyone either, but some)

Lol, why should they care about YOUR vacation? You're thinking like an employee instead of a business. Do businesses go on vacation?

I frequently go on vacations and my clients have no idea because my BUSINESS doesn't. Just complete what you've set out to do in a timely manner—whether by working overtime to set everything up before your vacation or delegating to someone else.

And yes, freelancing can be like having a business provided you treat it as such.

You realize that you actually created a job that was initially considered better, but got worse as time went on

"It got" worse or did you make it worse by spinning your wheels?

I could probably list more points and I'm sure there are a few others on this forum who have had similar experiences as freelancers and would have more points up their sleeves as well, but I think the cons have come out pretty well.

You wanted constructive criticism, so don't take offense to this. I've been there and so have most of the commenters in this thread...

But the cons you speak of are mainly in your character rather than in freelancing.

Or, to put it another way, the issues you've stumbled upon do not exclusively pertain to freelancing, but business as a whole—and they're your responsibility.

 

[Andy Black]

I don't know what this thread's about.


@circleme

You tagged me and said you're doing lead gen similar to what I'm doing so I'll reply.

I get the impression you might be throwing the baby out with the bath water.

If you want help with anything specific then ask in here, DM me, or we can hop on a Zoom sometime.


If you're doing similar to me then maybe these recent threads might help you:

• Building long-tail Google Ads campaigns for fun and profit
• Scaling a Productised Service with SOPs and Technology

If you've media buying skills then maybe check out @Lex DeVille 's thread here:

• How to Create a $2k+/mo Passive Income Website in 30 Days (or Less)

I also have a wee newsletter in my signature with a bonus lessons area that might help.

 

[BizyDad]

And here is my point: Freelancing could be seen as a kind of stepping stone to the "specialized unit", as MJ describes it, but if you have the possibility to go to level 4 (specialized unit/fastlane) right away, why not? But that's just my view of things, which I also wanted to emphasize with this thread.

I think this is an excellent point.

And I think this is the point that others have been trying to make as well.

Personally, one thing that I and others have pointed out is simply that not everyone can jump to level four right away.

For SOME of those people, freelancing CAN BE a stepping stone.

And so to suggest that freelancing sucks for everybody is just one of these over generalizations that is actually, on its face, untrue.

But anyway, if you're still NOT sure who's actually interested in HELPING you rather than USING you, look at what the people agreeing with you are talking about.

Is it about YOU and giving you direction? No, it's only about how bad freelancing is, because that's what they've mostly been doing on the forum these past few months i.e. stirring shit for no reason.

Okay, I think Simon Angel you're going a little too far here. No one is USING anyone.

@circleme is obviously his own man, with his own opinions about business. He's clearly thought his position through. He's entitled to his belief.

Those opinions happen to agree with prominent posters. There's nothing wrong with that, and I think you're being a little disrespectful to all parties involved.

We can all respectfully agree to disagree on some of these issues.

@BizyDad is the General Hartmann of the FLF.

Petition to change your header beneath the username:

"Because I am hard, you will not like me. But the more you hate me, the more you will learn. I am hard but I am fair".

love your posts

I've been called many things in my life...

Thank you for the compliment.

You wouldn't know it from my forum posts, but I actually rate quite high on agreeableness.

"I'm not as hard as I sound, and I do try to be fair."
-Bizydad 2023

 

[Kak]

You can’t say that here.

Prepare for the mean girls club to attack you in 10… 9… 8…

BTW congrats. You are on the way to Freedom.

Haha, hey @Black_Dragon43 we have another person with “bias.”

It can’t be that freelancing was a letdown… It’s bias.

 

[Vigilante]

Serious question, but what’s the difference between an agency and a freelancer?

I’ve been doing freelance SEO and content writing for a bit while building a content niche website, and people offer advice to start an agency.

Not exactly sure what the difference is that makes this a worthwhile route?

ChatGPT says
An agency is a company that offers a range of services to clients, typically in a specific field or industry. They employ a team of professionals who work together to complete projects for their clients. Agencies can vary in size, from small boutique firms to large international corporations.

On the other hand, a freelancer is an individual who offers their services to clients on a project-by-project basis. They typically work independently and are self-employed. Freelancers can work in a variety of industries and offer specialized skills or expertise in a particular area.

The main difference between an agency and a freelancer is the structure of their business model. An agency has a team of professionals with different skills and expertise, while a freelancer works alone and offers a specific set of skills. An agency may be better suited for larger projects that require a diverse range of skills and resources, while a freelancer may be a good option for smaller projects that require specialized skills or individual attention.

 

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[Vigilante]

Because one inexperienced entreprenuer said so. Let's examine all the limiting beliefs presented here.



It took you only 2 years to 5X your income. Well, that's actually more aggressive a timeline than @Antifragile recommends in his scaling thread. So doing pretty good there. Proof of concept.



No. This is a mindset issue. You see yourself as owing them. And if you keep feeling this way, imagine when you have 1000 customers in your fastlane business. Gosh, how will you react to your first bad review? Your 30th bad review?



Sounds like you have a challenge in setting proper boundaries and handling conflict. Both of these are SKILLS an entreprenuer will need to learn to go fastlane. A leader needs to learn these as well.



This again sounds like a boundaries or conflict issue. This can also be solved with higher prices upfront. A person with good sales skills can overcome any of these challenges. Would you say you are a good sales person or do you still have room to grow?



That is how it starts. But as you grow your skills you can become someone the client turns to to solve their other issues. That's how you transition from freelancer to agency.



That's a you issue.

Also easily solved. Turn off your phone. Hire additional staff. When I took 10 days off recently, my clients didn't even notice. But I did have to put the proper systems in place to get to that. When I first started and I took a week off, i would cut my retainer by 1/4 for that month and let everyone know ahead of time.

It's that simple.



As I've pointed out, you had an opportunity to learn several skills that a fastlane business owner will need and most of the people chatting on here possess. You didn't see the opportunity before your eyes and just decided, meh, it doesn't work.

And the experienced guys are in here like, good for you kid! Smh.



Your comments above show you still have an external locus of control. I'm surprised @Kak didn't call you out for that.

He normally does. But I guess if the argument agrees with him he'll abandon his normal tactics.



You decided freelancing doesn't work for you. And you are deciding to do something about it. AWESOME! Congrats. Your life is your own.

But this thread could've just as easily been about selling cigar boxes and failing or not excelling at that, and that wouldn't mean that no one should sell cigar boxes.

You probably will stop at least one more fastlane attempt before you really make it. That doesn't make the attempt worthless. The only thing that makes the attempt worthless is your attitude towards it.



This thread is one data point. A valid one. @lex says the same thing.

But it doesn't change the fact that several start here and go on to success. This thread is an opinion. Not fact.




Where's all the tough talk for this kid who cries because having customers is too hard? I thought you were the new HBIC around here.

Why are you coddling him, but others don't get the same bleeding heart attitude?



It absolutely can be. There is nothing wrong with that choice either.

There is no right answer here fellas. The right entry point is

THE ONE THAT GETS YOU STARTED ON THE PATH

Can we just stop the bickering now?

All you geniuses can't see the truth because ya gotta be right instead of being practical.

Your post is exactly what I said. I wouldn’t engage in when I came back here.

Feel free to resume your posture of imaginary bitch in charge.

You know everything there is to know anyway so I can’t help you nor are you asking for help.

I’m 0% interested in Internet bitch fights.

If you’re going to get your feelings hurt every time I post something you might just want to smash that ignore button.

 

[Vigilante]

Damn, @Vigilante is the same wild bull I remember from 1-2 years ago!

Just two years older, and maybe dumber.

 

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[BizyDad]

Everything worked out wonderfully from the point of view of a slowlaner. In my opinion, I definitely saw and realized the possibility that I would have to switch from the slowlane to the fastlane.

I take your feedback to heart, even if I do not understand all the points, although I do my best here to look at everything as objectively as possible. Maybe with the best will in the world I am not yet ready to understand everything, maybe I will understand it only in the course of my Fastlane journey.

You're going to be fine bro. I appreciate you taking my message in the spirit it was intended. And we're all here to help when you need us.