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BREAKING NEWS: The Mexican Fisherman has filed for bankruptcy.

MJ DeMarco

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Beware of romanticized parables that convince you to adopt a dangerous financial strategy devoid of any reality in today's world.

One such story is the "Mexican Fisherman" parable I scrutinized in Unscripted over 5 years ago. Today, this parable is being enthusiastically circulated around the web as some modern "lifestyle doctrine" you should adopt without question or critique.

However, for most people, this parable has become a risky and convenient excuse for sloth and poor financial planning.

If you haven't heard the "Mexican Fisherman" parable, it goes like this:

A businessman stood at the pier of a small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked. Inside the small boat were several large yellow-fin tuna. The American complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish.

"How long did it take to catch them?" the businessman asked.

"Only a bit," the Mexican replied.

"Why don't you stay out longer and catch more fish?" the businessman then asked.

"I have enough to support my family's immediate needs," the Mexican said.

"But," the businessman asked, "what do you do with the rest of your time?"

The "Mexican Fisherman" said, "I sleep late, play with my children, take a siesta with my wife, take evening strolls to the village, where I sip wine and play guitar with my amigos. I have a full and busy life, señor."

The businessman scoffed, "I have a Harvard MBA, and I could help you. You should spend more time fishing, and with the proceeds, you buy a bigger boat, and with the proceeds from the bigger boat, you could buy several boats. Eventually, you would have a fleet of fishing boats. Instead of selling your catch to a middleman, you could sell directly to the consumers, eventually opening your own cannery. You would need to work a bit longer and harder in the big city, but you would control everything."

The "Mexican Fisherman" asked, "But señor, how long will this all take?"

To which the businessman replied, "Five to ten years."

"But what then, señor?"

The businessman laughed and said, "Well, that's the best part. When the time is right, you would sell your company and become very rich; you would make millions."

"Millions, señor? Then what?"

The businessman said slowly, "Then you would retire, move to a small coastal fishing village, where you would sleep late, play with your kids, take a siesta with your wife, take evenings strolls to the village, where you could sip wine and play guitar with your amigos…"


Sounds pretty cool, eh? This story emphasizes noble things such as friends, family, and free time. It is no surprise why it is such a viral trope.

The problem is, this story lacks any connection to real life.

It is entirely idealistic to the point of being dangerous. Such idealism might work in when you're 23 years old, but as you get older, this type of strategy is the same as thinking your first winning hour at the casino will continue for the next 8 hours.

Here's the rest of the story you didn't hear:

Soon after the businessman left, things changed. The government, desperate for tax dollars, levied a series of boating, gaming, and license fees: To continue fishing, the Mexican must pay $400 for a fishing license, a $200 environmental fee, a $350 game endorsement, and $1,800 in mooring fees. If he doesn't pay ASAP, the Mexican will be barred from fishing.

Unfortunately, after paying all the fees, the Mexican has little money left to insure and license his boat. Unable to legally operate in his favorite coastal town, the "Mexican Fisherman" drives three hours south to another town, where the quality of the fish is poor. The long drive takes its toll on the Mexican's car, where it ultimately breaks down. To fix his car, he needs $300 for a water pump and $600 for a radiator. This is after he pays $400 to get his car towed back to his village.

But this story is about to get worse.

Instead of making the money to fix things that needed fixing, the fisherman's home is in a constant state of disrepair, from the eroding concrete pilings to the rotting roof, the Mexican is in town fiddling away at his guitar. A hurricane strikes his tiny village and demolishes his home, leaving him and his family homeless.

For the next month, his family is stuck living in squalid government tents, and as a result, the Mexican fails to pay the mooring fees for his boat. The "Mexican Fisherman" who spent most of his days in unpreparedness and merriment—strumming around with his friends, sipping wine—now has no money or options to escape his plight. Tired of his sloth and inability to provide the basics to his family, his wife divorces him.

The fisherman now sings a much different tune with his amigos, one of anger, bitterness, and regret.



Which one of these stories sounds more realistic? In both stories, the fisherman has the same goal: freedom with his friends and family. That's honorable.

Unfortunately, when money is removed from a real-world existence, idealism becomes a nightmare—a repeated reality in every civilized country worldwide: bills, fees, taxes, divorces, unexpected tragedy, life overhead, and money problems.

The problem wasn't the fisherman's goal—freedom; the problem was he was lazy and disrespected money's role. He didn't save, prepare, or produce in excess of consumption.

Don't let anyone convince you that money isn't important.


Money can buy security, options, and freedom—all of which will likely make you happy.
 
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ZackerySprague

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I almost filed for bankruptcy last year because of my ignorance and not having financial discpline... It seriously isn't the best feeling in the world... Just knowing thinking about it makes me feel a bit sad and full of regrets for my past choices.

I almost filed in August of 2022, but I decided to not do it, because even going into Chapter 13 doesn't help you. It's basically a consolidation loan in disguise. If you miss your payments, the debt collectors can come after you.

Money is indeed important and I had to ignore my friends and families advice otherwise. Going down a different path is not easy.

I was civilly sued by a credit lender the amount of~$10,000, luckily I won and was able to pay a 40% lump sum. Ever since then I have been making debt settlement agreements and paying lump sums one by one even though I know they would be classified as added income at the end of the year when I filed my Taxes.

So if anything, please do take this post to heart. Besides the fact of me being a huge fan, this story has merit. It is not fun going down this path and disregarding your financials and what they can do for you.

Biggest lesson for me was to never use credit as a supplemental income source, hard earned cash is so much better, payoff your debts, and build your own backyard & not someone else's.

Save yourself from financial ruin and today's societal consumption mentality.
 

heavy_industry

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#gold

I don't understand why some people love to believe in the false dichotomy of money vs happiness, as if they were somehow mutually exclusive.

If you know how to live a good life and be happy, money will make things even better.
 

N.S.

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#gold

I don't understand why some people love to believe in the false dichotomy of money vs happiness, as if they were somehow mutually exclusive.

If you know how to live a good life and be happy, money will make things even better.
Strong agree.

I'll take it one step further - after a certain point, money and happiness are completely unrelated.

I know a self made billionaire (know, not know of) who is one of the most miserable ppl I've ever met. I know a bunch of deca-millionaires who definitely don't have to worry about money but aren't all that happy with their lives or generally happy ppl.

Conversely, I ran a business in the wellness industry where I met numerous business owners who struggled to make money, barely scraping by but were and are incredibly fulfilled and really stellar human beings (until they get older and they go the way of the "Mexican Fisherman" - thanks @MJ DeMarco!).

I think the point where money and happiness start to separate is the point someone can comfortably live their own definition of a decent lifestyle.

Furthermore, when I've met d1ckheads who then make money, and then they just have more ability to be an even bigger d1ckhead. And when happy / fulfilled people make money, they have and tend to use their greater ability to be more happy and/or to share it.

Money is an amplifier. It's a*cking myth that it can make someone happy, but it sure can help you live a nice life and take away the kind of stressors that drag down one's mood.

EDIT: read MJ's reply a couple of posts down. I think his response shows that my last statement was contradictory.
 
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ericlozada

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Beware of romanticized parables that convince you to adopt a dangerous financial strategy devoid of any reality in today's world.

One such story is the "Mexican Fisherman" parable I scrutinized in Unscripted over 5 years ago. Today, this parable is being enthusiastically circulated around the web as some modern "lifestyle doctrine" you should adopt without question or critique.

However, for most people, this parable has become a risky and convenient excuse for sloth and poor financial planning.

If you haven't heard the "Mexican Fisherman" parable, it goes like this:

A businessman stood at the pier of a small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked. Inside the small boat were several large yellow-fin tuna. The American complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish.

"How long did it take to catch them?" the businessman asked.

"Only a bit," the Mexican replied.

"Why don't you stay out longer and catch more fish?" the businessman then asked.

"I have enough to support my family's immediate needs," the Mexican said.

"But," the businessman asked, "what do you do with the rest of your time?"

The "Mexican Fisherman" said, "I sleep late, play with my children, take a siesta with my wife, take evening strolls to the village, where I sip wine and play guitar with my amigos. I have a full and busy life, señor."

The businessman scoffed, "I have a Harvard MBA, and I could help you. You should spend more time fishing, and with the proceeds, you buy a bigger boat, and with the proceeds from the bigger boat, you could buy several boats. Eventually, you would have a fleet of fishing boats. Instead of selling your catch to a middleman, you could sell directly to the consumers, eventually opening your own cannery. You would need to work a bit longer and harder in the big city, but you would control everything."

The "Mexican Fisherman" asked, "But señor, how long will this all take?"

To which the businessman replied, "Five to ten years."

"But what then, señor?"

The businessman laughed and said, "Well, that's the best part. When the time is right, you would sell your company and become very rich; you would make millions."

"Millions, señor? Then what?"

The businessman said slowly, "Then you would retire, move to a small coastal fishing village, where you would sleep late, play with your kids, take a siesta with your wife, take evenings strolls to the village, where you could sip wine and play guitar with your amigos…"


Sounds pretty cool, eh? This story emphasizes noble things such as friends, family, and free time. It is no surprise why it is such a viral trope.

The problem is, this story lacks any connection to real life.

It is entirely idealistic to the point of being dangerous. Such idealism might work in when you're 23 years old, but as you get older, this type of strategy is the same as thinking your first winning hour at the casino will continue for the next 8 hours.

Here's the rest of the story you didn't hear:

Soon after the businessman left, things changed. The government, desperate for tax dollars, levied a series of boating, gaming, and license fees: To continue fishing, the Mexican must pay $400 for a fishing license, a $200 environmental fee, a $350 game endorsement, and $1,800 in mooring fees. If he doesn't pay ASAP, the Mexican will be barred from fishing.

Unfortunately, after paying all the fees, the Mexican has little money left to insure and license his boat. Unable to legally operate in his favorite coastal town, the "Mexican Fisherman" drives three hours south to another town, where the quality of the fish is poor. The long drive takes its toll on the Mexican's car, where it ultimately breaks down. To fix his car, he needs $300 for a water pump and $600 for a radiator. This is after he pays $400 to get his car towed back to his village.

But this story is about to get worse.

Instead of making the money to fix things that needed fixing, the fisherman's home is in a constant state of disrepair, from the eroding concrete pilings to the rotting roof, the Mexican is in town fiddling away at his guitar. A hurricane strikes his tiny village and demolishes his home, leaving him and his family homeless.

For the next month, his family is stuck living in squalid government tents, and as a result, the Mexican fails to pay the mooring fees for his boat. The "Mexican Fisherman" who spent most of his days in unpreparedness and merriment—strumming around with his friends, sipping wine—now has no money or options to escape his plight. Tired of his sloth and inability to provide the basics to his family, his wife divorces him.

The fisherman now sings a much different tune with his amigos, one of anger, bitterness, and regret.



Which one of these stories sounds more realistic? In both stories, the fisherman has the same goal: freedom with his friends and family. That's honorable.

Unfortunately, when money is removed from a real-world existence, idealism becomes a nightmare—a repeated reality in every civilized country worldwide: bills, fees, taxes, divorces, unexpected tragedy, life overhead, and money problems.

The problem wasn't the fisherman's goal—freedom; the problem was he was lazy and disrespected money's role. He didn't save, prepare, or produce in excess of consumption.

Don't let anyone convince you that money isn't important.

Money can buy security, options, and freedom—all of which will likely make you happy.
This is a classic parable!
 

Kevin88660

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There is a reason why people have mid-life crisis.

Kids still young, parents aging, mortgage and car loans not fully paid. You cannot work with 4 hours sleep week like the fresh grads who are hungry.

Work hard for money when you most don’t need it, because when you need it, it is not going to appear magically.
 
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MJ DeMarco

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It's a*cking myth that it can make someone happy, but it sure can help you live a nice life and take away the kind of stressors that drag down one's mood.

Sorry, but money can definitely make someone happy, or in my case MORE happy. Your statement is a contradiction. Less stress = more happiness. Less bad moods = more happiness.

"Money can't buy happiness" is another SCRIPTED lie.

Just to give you 2 examples in my life in which money brought joy to my life:

My dog needed two expensive surgeries to live normally. The ""Mexican Fisherman"" would need to put the dog down, or let the dog suffer. I paid for the surgeries and my dog has never been happier. Having my dog happy and have him live years longer, makes me happy. No money? The dog dies.

My wife's childhood nanny died at 83 years old. Instead of fretting about flying across the country because the short-term flight is so damn expensive (while worrying about being "off work"), she flew back to her childhood home, first class. No questions asked. She paid her respects in person at the funeral to someone who was important in her childhood. No money? She mourns alone, or on a Zoom call.

But yea, MoNeY caNt BuY HAppiNeSS!! LOL.
 
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Black_Dragon43

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Beware of romanticized parables that convince you to adopt a dangerous financial strategy devoid of any reality in today's world.

One such story is the "Mexican Fisherman" parable I scrutinized in Unscripted over 5 years ago. Today, this parable is being enthusiastically circulated around the web as some modern "lifestyle doctrine" you should adopt without question or critique.

However, for most people, this parable has become a risky and convenient excuse for sloth and poor financial planning.

If you haven't heard the "Mexican Fisherman" parable, it goes like this:

A businessman stood at the pier of a small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked. Inside the small boat were several large yellow-fin tuna. The American complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish.

"How long did it take to catch them?" the businessman asked.

"Only a bit," the Mexican replied.

"Why don't you stay out longer and catch more fish?" the businessman then asked.

"I have enough to support my family's immediate needs," the Mexican said.

"But," the businessman asked, "what do you do with the rest of your time?"

The "Mexican Fisherman" said, "I sleep late, play with my children, take a siesta with my wife, take evening strolls to the village, where I sip wine and play guitar with my amigos. I have a full and busy life, señor."

The businessman scoffed, "I have a Harvard MBA, and I could help you. You should spend more time fishing, and with the proceeds, you buy a bigger boat, and with the proceeds from the bigger boat, you could buy several boats. Eventually, you would have a fleet of fishing boats. Instead of selling your catch to a middleman, you could sell directly to the consumers, eventually opening your own cannery. You would need to work a bit longer and harder in the big city, but you would control everything."

The "Mexican Fisherman" asked, "But señor, how long will this all take?"

To which the businessman replied, "Five to ten years."

"But what then, señor?"

The businessman laughed and said, "Well, that's the best part. When the time is right, you would sell your company and become very rich; you would make millions."

"Millions, señor? Then what?"

The businessman said slowly, "Then you would retire, move to a small coastal fishing village, where you would sleep late, play with your kids, take a siesta with your wife, take evenings strolls to the village, where you could sip wine and play guitar with your amigos…"


Sounds pretty cool, eh? This story emphasizes noble things such as friends, family, and free time. It is no surprise why it is such a viral trope.

The problem is, this story lacks any connection to real life.

It is entirely idealistic to the point of being dangerous. Such idealism might work in when you're 23 years old, but as you get older, this type of strategy is the same as thinking your first winning hour at the casino will continue for the next 8 hours.

Here's the rest of the story you didn't hear:

Soon after the businessman left, things changed. The government, desperate for tax dollars, levied a series of boating, gaming, and license fees: To continue fishing, the Mexican must pay $400 for a fishing license, a $200 environmental fee, a $350 game endorsement, and $1,800 in mooring fees. If he doesn't pay ASAP, the Mexican will be barred from fishing.

Unfortunately, after paying all the fees, the Mexican has little money left to insure and license his boat. Unable to legally operate in his favorite coastal town, the "Mexican Fisherman" drives three hours south to another town, where the quality of the fish is poor. The long drive takes its toll on the Mexican's car, where it ultimately breaks down. To fix his car, he needs $300 for a water pump and $600 for a radiator. This is after he pays $400 to get his car towed back to his village.

But this story is about to get worse.

Instead of making the money to fix things that needed fixing, the fisherman's home is in a constant state of disrepair, from the eroding concrete pilings to the rotting roof, the Mexican is in town fiddling away at his guitar. A hurricane strikes his tiny village and demolishes his home, leaving him and his family homeless.

For the next month, his family is stuck living in squalid government tents, and as a result, the Mexican fails to pay the mooring fees for his boat. The "Mexican Fisherman" who spent most of his days in unpreparedness and merriment—strumming around with his friends, sipping wine—now has no money or options to escape his plight. Tired of his sloth and inability to provide the basics to his family, his wife divorces him.

The fisherman now sings a much different tune with his amigos, one of anger, bitterness, and regret.



Which one of these stories sounds more realistic? In both stories, the fisherman has the same goal: freedom with his friends and family. That's honorable.

Unfortunately, when money is removed from a real-world existence, idealism becomes a nightmare—a repeated reality in every civilized country worldwide: bills, fees, taxes, divorces, unexpected tragedy, life overhead, and money problems.

The problem wasn't the fisherman's goal—freedom; the problem was he was lazy and disrespected money's role. He didn't save, prepare, or produce in excess of consumption.

Don't let anyone convince you that money isn't important.

Money can buy security, options, and freedom—all of which will likely make you happy.
This is exactly the message this forum needs right now. Thank you for knowing what to say at the right time MJ.

I used to make fun of @Kak but I’m starting to see the same defeatist attitude around a lot more often than before. Lifestyle is nice, but lifestyle needs money.
 

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Sorry, but money can definitely make someone happy, or in my case MORE happy. Your statement is a contradiction. Less stress = more happiness. Less bad moods = more happiness.

"Money can't buy happiness" is another SCRIPTED lie.

Just to give you 2 examples in my life in which money brought joy to my life:

My dog needed two expensive surgeries to live normally. The ""Mexican Fisherman"" would need to put the dog down, or let the dog suffer. I paid for the surgeries and my dog has never been happier. Having my dog happy and have him live years longer, makes me happy. No money? The dog dies.

My wife's childhood nanny died at 83 years old. Instead of fretting about flying across the country because the short-term flight is so damn expensive (while worrying about being "off work"), she flew back to her childhood home, first class. No questions asked. She paid her respects in person at the funeral to someone who was important in her childhood. No money? She mourns alone, or on a Zoom call.

But yea, MoNeY caNt BuY HAppiNeSS!! LOL.
Ok this is fair. I agree.

A better way of saying what I meant would have been that "in my opinion, money alone can't take a sad person and automatically make them happy".

But even then - as per your examples - I accept that actually even a sad person with means can be happier with the optionality that money can buy.

I know that having money has made a huge difference in my and my family's life, even better that we've made it ourselves so we understand the value of it and find deep gratitude in having had (and capitalised on) the opportunities to earn it. I accept that because we were already more on the happy side when we didn't have money, that skews my view.

I also know this - I'd be devastated if we lost it all, I definitely could and would start again but not having money would make being happy significantly more challenging.
 
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heavy_industry

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Money is an amplifier.
Exactly.

Money will make you more of what you already are. If you know how to be happy, money will make you happier. If you are generous, money will make you more generous.

However, the lack of money can and will cause a lot of suffering.

Life is already very hard and tragic by its own nature. We are all very vulnerable. Not having money to be able to deal with emergency situations will make matters even more tragic than they have to be.

It's your responsibility to have plenty of resources to help yourself and your loved ones. Being poor is not and will never be a virtue. Anyone that claims otherwise is delusional.
 
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Ok this is fair. I agree.

A better way of saying what I meant would have been that "in my opinion, money can't take a sad person and automatically make them happy".

But even then - as per your examples - I accept that actually even a sad person with means can be happier with the optionality that money can buy.

I know that having money has made a huge difference in my and my family's life, even better that we've made it ourselves so we understand the value of it and find deep gratitude in having found the opportunities to earn it. I accept that because we were more on the happy side when we didn't have money, that skews my view.

I also know this - I'd be devastated if we lost it all, I definitely could and would start again but it would make being happy significantly more challenging.
If you have done enough approaching strangers on the road for sales you will learn this that the best way to guess the wealth level of a person is not by the clothes they wear, as the average joe who maxes out his credit card every month can have nice clothes, shoes and watches.

It is by the facial expressions they have. Because comfortable wealthy people do not have the scars of financial stress and tenseness on their facial expressions built up throughout years.

The stupid thing that people do like road rage and getting mad suddenly for minor things, are usually triggered by the last straw that broke the camel’s back. The bulk before that is largely due to financial stress.
 

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the lack of money can and will cause a lot of suffering.

It's your responsibility to have plenty of resources to help yourself and your loved ones. Being poor is not and will never be a virtue. Anyone that claims otherwise is delusional.
Amen. Could not agree more.

I'm also grateful that this thread forced me to look at and refine my own view.

Money can buy happiness, period.
 
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Beware of romanticized parables that convince you to adopt a dangerous financial strategy devoid of any reality in today's world.

One such story is the "Mexican Fisherman" parable I scrutinized in Unscripted over 5 years ago. Today, this parable is being enthusiastically circulated around the web as some modern "lifestyle doctrine" you should adopt without question or critique.

However, for most people, this parable has become a risky and convenient excuse for sloth and poor financial planning.

If you haven't heard the "Mexican Fisherman" parable, it goes like this:

A businessman stood at the pier of a small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked. Inside the small boat were several large yellow-fin tuna. The American complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish.

"How long did it take to catch them?" the businessman asked.

"Only a bit," the Mexican replied.

"Why don't you stay out longer and catch more fish?" the businessman then asked.

"I have enough to support my family's immediate needs," the Mexican said.

"But," the businessman asked, "what do you do with the rest of your time?"

The "Mexican Fisherman" said, "I sleep late, play with my children, take a siesta with my wife, take evening strolls to the village, where I sip wine and play guitar with my amigos. I have a full and busy life, señor."

The businessman scoffed, "I have a Harvard MBA, and I could help you. You should spend more time fishing, and with the proceeds, you buy a bigger boat, and with the proceeds from the bigger boat, you could buy several boats. Eventually, you would have a fleet of fishing boats. Instead of selling your catch to a middleman, you could sell directly to the consumers, eventually opening your own cannery. You would need to work a bit longer and harder in the big city, but you would control everything."

The "Mexican Fisherman" asked, "But señor, how long will this all take?"

To which the businessman replied, "Five to ten years."

"But what then, señor?"

The businessman laughed and said, "Well, that's the best part. When the time is right, you would sell your company and become very rich; you would make millions."

"Millions, señor? Then what?"

The businessman said slowly, "Then you would retire, move to a small coastal fishing village, where you would sleep late, play with your kids, take a siesta with your wife, take evenings strolls to the village, where you could sip wine and play guitar with your amigos…"


Sounds pretty cool, eh? This story emphasizes noble things such as friends, family, and free time. It is no surprise why it is such a viral trope.

The problem is, this story lacks any connection to real life.

It is entirely idealistic to the point of being dangerous. Such idealism might work in when you're 23 years old, but as you get older, this type of strategy is the same as thinking your first winning hour at the casino will continue for the next 8 hours.

Here's the rest of the story you didn't hear:

Soon after the businessman left, things changed. The government, desperate for tax dollars, levied a series of boating, gaming, and license fees: To continue fishing, the Mexican must pay $400 for a fishing license, a $200 environmental fee, a $350 game endorsement, and $1,800 in mooring fees. If he doesn't pay ASAP, the Mexican will be barred from fishing.

Unfortunately, after paying all the fees, the Mexican has little money left to insure and license his boat. Unable to legally operate in his favorite coastal town, the "Mexican Fisherman" drives three hours south to another town, where the quality of the fish is poor. The long drive takes its toll on the Mexican's car, where it ultimately breaks down. To fix his car, he needs $300 for a water pump and $600 for a radiator. This is after he pays $400 to get his car towed back to his village.

But this story is about to get worse.

Instead of making the money to fix things that needed fixing, the fisherman's home is in a constant state of disrepair, from the eroding concrete pilings to the rotting roof, the Mexican is in town fiddling away at his guitar. A hurricane strikes his tiny village and demolishes his home, leaving him and his family homeless.

For the next month, his family is stuck living in squalid government tents, and as a result, the Mexican fails to pay the mooring fees for his boat. The "Mexican Fisherman" who spent most of his days in unpreparedness and merriment—strumming around with his friends, sipping wine—now has no money or options to escape his plight. Tired of his sloth and inability to provide the basics to his family, his wife divorces him.

The fisherman now sings a much different tune with his amigos, one of anger, bitterness, and regret.



Which one of these stories sounds more realistic? In both stories, the fisherman has the same goal: freedom with his friends and family. That's honorable.

Unfortunately, when money is removed from a real-world existence, idealism becomes a nightmare—a repeated reality in every civilized country worldwide: bills, fees, taxes, divorces, unexpected tragedy, life overhead, and money problems.

The problem wasn't the fisherman's goal—freedom; the problem was he was lazy and disrespected money's role. He didn't save, prepare, or produce in excess of consumption.

Don't let anyone convince you that money isn't important.

Money can buy security, options, and freedom—all of which will likely make you happy.

I know a guy from school who ended up working on a fishing boat last year cause he messed everything else up.

Flash forward a few months and his back is destroyed from lifting crab nets.

Funny how it's a Mexican fisherman in that story and not any other country - the story flaws show up pretty fast when its Alaskan fisherman or Irish fisherman.
 
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MJ DeMarco

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A better way of saying what I meant would have been that "in my opinion, money can't take a sad person and automatically make them happy".

Definitely, money can't fix a person with psychological issues. It is often cited that money magnifies a person's mindset. If you're generally happy, money will make you MORE happy. If you're generally an ahole, money will make you more of an ahole.


I know a guy from school who ended up working on a fishing boat last year cause he messed everything else up.

Flash forward a few months and his back is destroyed from lifting crab nets.

Funny how it's a Mexican fisherman in that story and not any other country - the story flaws show up pretty fast when its Alaskan fisherman or Irish fisherman.

I think I might start a thread on all the real stories in my life where having real financial freedom has brought me joy, lowered stress, and contributed to life experience.

I'm getting tired of these threads where people are trying to convince other people it's cool being broke as long as you can play checkers all day. As @BizyDad cited, the Fox and the Grapes is now a financial strategy -- instead of admitting defeat in your attempt to build real financial wealth, just convince yourself it is no longer acceptable.
 

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Definitely, money can't fix a person with psychological issues. It is often cited that money magnifies a person's mindset. If you're generally happy, money will make you MORE happy. If you're generally an ahole, money will make you more of an ahole.




I think I might start a thread on all the real stories in my life where having real financial freedom has brought me joy, lowered stress, and contributed to life experience.

I'm getting tired of these threads where people are trying to convince other people it's cool being broke as long as you can play checkers all day. As @BizyDad cited, the Fox and the Grapes is now a financial strategy -- instead of admitting defeat in your attempt to build real financial wealth, just convince yourself it is no longer acceptable.

That wasn't me. That was my personal profile trainer @heavy_industry

Since he resculpted my profile pic, likes on my posts have increased a bajillion percent. :eyes:
 

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Beware of romanticized parables that convince you to adopt a dangerous financial strategy devoid of any reality in today's world.
Since my divorce a decade ago I entered a new world of spirituality. I was so thrilled to know that there is so much more to life than money, paying bills, waiting for weekends and/or holidays . Little did i know that living the spiritual life actually comes with the price of not having any money. Simply because it is taught that ”you should be grateful with what you have and then the universe will give you more of that“

Even though we come a long way with gratitude and i do believe that the world would benefit a lot from being detached from the materialistic needs, I also find it hard to be grateful for my home when i have trouble paying the rent. It is a struggle to stay grateful when the prices on food increases so damn much that i find it hard to put food on the table. And I find it extremely difficult to be truly happy when I worry if my kid grows out of his clothes because i dont have the money to buy new ones.

One of my friends (who is one of the struggling loving people) asked me if i believed in The law of attraction. My answer was; it is not a law, it’s a theory at best. And as long as it has not been proved to be a law, I will go with the more practical approach to life and use both my head and my heart while doing business.

And my head tells me that I need (a lot of) money to live the life my heart is longing for
 

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I think I might start a thread on all the real stories in my life where having real financial freedom has brought me joy, lowered stress, and contributed to life experience.
This is a great idea.

I think a number of ppl here can contribute to this with examples from their own lives. I have plenty of examples at different levels.

It would be good (and inspirational) to do this.

Let's blow a huge hole into this ridiculous idea that living a frugal life (i.e. lowering standards) but having some sort of fleeting (i.e. it doesn't last and doesn't help when the sh1t really hits the fan, as it inevitably will) compromised version of "freedom" is something to aspire to.
 
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Strong agree.

I'll take it one step further - after a certain point, money and happiness are completely unrelated.

I know a self made billionaire (know, not know of) who is one of the most miserable ppl I've ever met. I know a bunch of deca-millionaires who definitely don't have to worry about money but aren't all that happy with their lives or generally happy ppl.

Conversely, I ran a business in the wellness industry where I met numerous business owners who struggled to make money, barely scraping by but were and are incredibly fulfilled and really stellar human beings (until they get older and they go the way of the "Mexican Fisherman" - thanks @MJ DeMarco!).

I think the point where money and happiness start to separate is the point someone can comfortably live their own definition of a decent lifestyle.

Furthermore, when I've met d1ckheads who then make money, and then they just have more ability to be an even bigger d1ckhead. And when happy / fulfilled people make money, they have and tend to use their greater ability to be more happy and/or to share it.

Money is an amplifier. It's a*cking myth that it can make someone happy, but it sure can help you live a nice life and take away the kind of stressors that drag down one's mood.

EDIT: read MJ's reply a couple of posts down. I think his response shows that my last statement was contradictory.
I think that if you're not happy with a lot of money........you have a Serious Lack of Imagination.......lol.....
There are SO many things you can do with money that would fulfill you in numerous ways.....
And for those that say for instance that Money can't buy you Love.........I say Money can expose you to enough people to where you can FIND Love.................Z
 
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Not sure of the etiquette here on posting links so if this is not acceptable please take it down (or let me know and I'll delete the post).

Disclaimer: I don't know this guy and there's nothing in it for me, but I think objectively he is an impressive entrepreneur.

This blog post of his really hit home for me: Choose Money First | Siliconvict

Here's an excerpt of the start:

"Let’s talk about the most important thing in your life - money.

Woah, hands away from the command+w. Hear me out. I know, I know. “Money can’t buy happiness”. Money can’t give you true love, or more years on your life, or make your kid not grow up to be Jeffrey Dahmer, or let you teleport.

Actually wait. Yes, it can."


Bonus: it also debunks how unrealistic and flawed the concept of "ikigai" is for entrepreneurs.
 

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And my head tells me that I need (a lot of) money to live the life my heart is longing for

Again, part of the lore in this "it's cool to be broke and live paycheck to paycheck!" is this binary logic that you can't be spiritual if you have a lot of money. Rich people are not spiritual, or cannot be. The two cannot co-exist. This is full-blown baloney, a mental gymnastic to persuade people to lower expectations and standards. All of which lower carbon footprints, increase state dependence, and remove threats to the system.

I'm vegan largely because of my spirituality and love for other living creatures. I can't walk through the damn meat department at a grocery story without feeling overwhelming angst and anxiety, followed by empathy for those fearful creatures who had to die so they could sit on the clearance rack at Safeway. But according to the mediocrity gang, you can't be both spiritual and wealthy. The Bible even promotes such nonsense.

You're either a rich a**hole going to hell, or a spiritual monk who owns nothing.

Don't fall for the lies.
 

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I strongly agree with @MJ DeMarco on this message, and I find myself telling people the same thing. Making more money and having more resources will always be better than not having it, regardless of what anyone thinks about happiness. Like some comedian put it, "Sure, money might not buy me happiness, but I'd rather do my crying in a Bentley than on the bus."

However, in my opinion, I don't think the distinction is as simple as "money can buy happiness" vs "money can't buy happiness." It's a bit more nuanced, so neither of these are 100% accurate. It's a long post, but please hear me out.

In human philosophy, Aristotle proposed that in all of the human condition, happiness is the only "end in itself."
This means of all fathomable things humans desire, happiness is the only thing we desire for the sake of itself. Everything else you can think of is at least one step or multiple steps chain-linked up to happiness.

You desire money? Why?
- Money can buy you nice things and afford you conveniences that make life easier. This easier life can contribute to your happiness, which is what you're ultimately after.

You want a great partner? Why?
- A great partner will be supportive and provide companionship. A great partner will satisfy your mutual sexual desires. These satisfactions will make you feel good and can increase your happiness, which is what you're really after.

You want a Lambo? Why?
- ....you get the drift (pun intended).

On the other hand

You want happiness? Why?
- Because you want to be happy.

So every single thing you want as a person is really just an attempt to increase happiness. Happiness is the only thing you want for no other reason than itself.

My point is, money will definitely set you up to maximize happiness, but having money isn't a golden ticket to happiness. It's just perhaps the best down payment for it. Money has a point of diminishing returns on happiness. Or more accurately, a point of lateral returns. At that point, more of it will no longer improve your happiness in any significant way.

However, life still goes on at that point. This means even if you have a trillion bucks in the bank, happiness can still elude you. It's like Citizen Kane sitting in the dingy Xanadu mansion by himself. I certainly think people should max out the possible contributions of money to their happiness, instead of copping out at low levels.

For true happiness, people should focus on all aspects of being happy, not just money. Whether its mental health, physical health, etc. Some focus only on acquiring massive wealth, and ignore their health, for instance. Now this person can afford to buy an entire hospital, but it's too late for their money to save them, because their condition was ignored too long to be fixed. So they wither away in sadness, because they ignored health issues that could've been averted if addressed sooner. Good health, like money, is one major source of happiness. Don't ignore it thinking money can fix anything. It can't.

That said, many things which drive people into depression and sadness can be averted or resolved with more money and resources.

People are often sad because they're under constant financial dire straits and its mental stress. As a result, other areas of their life suffer. This same broke guy might also shy away from dating, because they can't afford even the most basic date, like drinking some juice while walking along a park. The $10 that date might cost in total might result in them starving for that day, so they avoid it.

What happens? They go deeper into being depressed, because in addition to being broke, they're lonely. Their family relations also suffer, because they can't support their aging parents, which makes them sadder. The sadder they get, the more apathetic they grow toward doing anything to help themselves. When you try to advice them, they tell you they're happy just being alone and they "hate people" anyway. It's a sad dose of copium. These can all be reversed with more stable access to money.
 
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But according to the mediocrity gang, you can't be both spiritual and wealthy. The Bible even promotes such nonsense.
I'm more familiar with the first section of that particular book (which, as far as I know, advocates wealth and claims poverty as an impediment to faith) but I know that rich Christians like Dave Ramsey regularly rail against the "poverty is spiritual" interpretation. I don't know whether Dave can fit through the eye of a needle though.
 

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In the quest for happiness, making money your God will not work for your happiness as other things will suffer.
In the quest for happiness, making money your Devil will not work for your happiness as other things will suffer.

Most self-development nowadays promotes the latter where being broke, poor, and driving a 30 year old truck is cool.

It's the latest endorsed virtue of mainstream mediocrity, and if your agenda serves this purpose, expect millions in free publicity on the front page of many media outlets.

I don't know whether Dave can fit through the eye of a needle though.

Sure he can, right after Joel Osteen. :playful:
 

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Again, part of the lore in this "it's cool to be broke and live paycheck to paycheck!" is this binary logic that you can't be spiritual if you have a lot of money. Rich people are not spiritual, or cannot be. The two cannot co-exist. This is full-blown baloney, a mental gymnastic to persuade people to lower expectations and standards. All of which lower carbon footprints, increase state dependence, and remove threats to the system.

I'm vegan largely because of my spirituality and love for other living creatures. I can't walk through the damn meat department at a grocery story without feeling overwhelming angst and anxiety, followed by empathy for those fearful creatures who had to die so they could sit on the clearance rack at Safeway. But according to the mediocrity gang, you can't be both spiritual and wealthy. The Bible even promotes such nonsense.

You're either a rich a**hole going to hell, or a spiritual monk who owns nothing.

Don't fall for the lies.
I have so many friends, who I love dearly, who keep telling me to "just do what you love and then everything will fall into place"... the words are clinging so hollow in my ears because in the same conversation they just told me about the struggle they have themselves of buying the things they need.

It does matter who you listen to. I no longer take financial advice from people who are broke themselves....
 
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can't be spiritual if you have a lot of money
Most very rich people I know aren’t spiritual. From what I’ve noticed, spirituality tends to attract people with emotional problems or who feel broken inside (not in all cases, Michael Singner would be an opposite example). I have a friend who runs a business marketing to the spirituality niche in the US — middle aged, female, feels broken, maybe divorced is THE ideal customer for him. It’s a huge market, his revenues are in the millions.

I personally see traditional spirituality as not necessarily opposed to wealth, but rather indifferent. A truly spiritual person doesn’t care if they’re rich or poor. Wealth is an indifferent to them.

Whereas the person most likely to become rich is the person who is a fierce competitor and thrives to outdo others. It’s the nature of capitalism (and the world, I may add). Spirituality would consider those desire to be violent and destructive. Competition is ego-driven, based on comparison, and always involves someone winning and losing.

Surely you may argue business is win-win if you look just at yourself and your customers, which is true. But it isn’t win-win if you take your competitors into account. The more business you gobble up, the less they have.

So I think spirituality is a big danger for the person interested in acquiring wealth. It’s better to stay away from it imo until one is already rich at minimum.

Here’s what Osho says: “A gentle person cannot succeed, he is bound to fail because he cannot be competitive. He cannot push and pull people, he cannot step over people’s heads.”

 

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Spirituality would consider those desire to be violent and destructive.
Depends on how exactly we define spirituality.

Throughout history there have been a lot of groups of very spiritual people that were fierce warriors (Vikings, Samurai etc.). I would argue that their spiritual believes made them even more violent, because they either did not fear death or they were actively trying to die in battle (again, due to their spiritual beliefs).

I think that the vast majority of (not all) modern people who choose the path of "spirituality" are just a bunch of people that have given up on life and their dreams, so they would rather meditate as the world around them collapses.

True spirituality means living a life of purpose.
You want to be the best scientist, or the best athlete, or the best entrepreneur, or you want to help people in need etc.

But it has to be a way of life that you choose for its own sake, because you actually believe in the cause. And not use it as a means of escapism to hide away from your problems.

Otherwise your "spiritual" way of life is on the same level of virtue as an alcoholic that drinks his life away to distract himself from the crushing reality.
 
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Depends on how exactly we define spirituality.

Throughout history there have been a lot of groups of very spiritual people that were fierce warriors (Vikings, Samurai etc.). I would argue that their spiritual believes made them even more violent, because they either did not fear death or they were actively trying to die in battle (again, due to their spiritual beliefs).

I think that the vast majority of (not all) modern people who choose the path of "spirituality" are just a bunch of people that have given up on life and their dreams, so they would rather meditate as the world around them collapses.

True spirituality means living a life of purpose.
You want to be the best scientist, or the best athlete, or the best entrepreneur, or you want to help people in need etc.

But it has to be a way of life that you choose for its own sake, because you actually believe in the cause. And not use it as a means of escapism to hide away from your problems.

Otherwise your "spiritual" way of life is on the same level of virtue as an alcoholic that drinks his life away to distract himself from the crushing reality.
I have to chip in here… I get a bit triggered by your post, you started out alright with stating that it depends on how we define spiritualit. That part i totally agree with.

I guess that you define spirituality by living a life of purpose. Who is to say that other spiritual people, who choose a life of meditation, has no purpose?

And other people might Define their spirituality in terms of finding peace or love or something else. So you are right when you wrote that it depends on how we define spirituality. But it also sounds like because people choose to meditate, then they automatically don’t care about the world around them? I might misunderstand that part, I hope I did.

I meditate because I care too much. I need to find peace to keep fighting for what I believe to be my path because we live in a world that are constantly trying to get me to just shut up and do what im being told.

One thing I feel we need to watch for, on the fast lane track, is to stop judging the people who are stuck in the rat race or as we call it in Denmark; The hamster Wheel (directly translated). We don’t know their stories, we don‘t know their reasons for sticking around. All we really can do is to lend a helping hand when we can. And take our own steps to get out of there as fast as we can :D
 

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I have so many friends, who I love dearly, who keep telling me to "just do what you love and then everything will fall into place"... the words are clinging so hollow in my ears because in the same conversation they just told me about the struggle they have themselves of buying the things they need.

It does matter who you listen to. I no longer take financial advice from people who are broke themselves....
omfg could not agree more!! Thank you.

"just do what you love and then everything will fall into place..." This is the MOST dangerous advice for happiness in my humble opinion. When someone says that to me I reply (kindly) "Cool! Explain to me how?" and then I shut up whilst they tie themselves in knots.

I have built more than one successful business. The most successful is in a super boring sector (but I get a lot of enjoyment out of winning and doing a great job). I did not "do what I love", I did what the world needed and what made logical sense.

I do love snowboarding and pizza. I get to do a LOT of snowboarding now. Guess what though - I've never made any money off them! The snowboarding and pizza markets are crowded because the cool kids want to do businesses there (restaurants/food is a notoriously hard area to make money in). My boring business area is competitive, but it's not crowded.

It does matter who you listen to. I no longer take financial advice from people who are broke themselves....
Bang on. I ONLY take advise from people who have done the thing they are advising on. Everything else is just an opinion, and it is very dangerous to adopt the opinions of those who don't really know how to achieve a result as beliefs.
 

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