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If y'alls' minds are not already blown, here's a little something that will blow it. I think this just corroborates the RichHabits.net site findings.
I read the abstract and the conclusion, and it looks to me that they're concluding that a significant portion of one's success is luck/randomness. Am I reading it correctly? If so, I think it actually goes against the findings of the stats in the OP.

upload_2018-8-6_16-22-22.png

Am I misinterpreting it?
 

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karakoram

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I read the abstract and the conclusion, and it looks to me that they're concluding that a significant portion of one's success is luck/randomness. Am I reading it correctly? If so, I think it actually goes against the findings of the stats in the OP.

View attachment 20802

Am I misinterpreting it?
I think your first sentence is correct. I don't think your last one is completely correct (partially, yes). I think I understand what you are getting at. The prima facie conclusion is that "its all about luck, so why bother trying/struggling?". I don't think that is the message from this papers' authors.

I will tell you my interpretation if you are interested. Anyone else reading this, I am inviting you to poke holes in my logic. I prefer to have my ideas vetted with constructive criticism and to uncover any cognitive dissonance I am not aware of.

What the paper is saying is that skill alone is not enough to attribute to large amounts of wealth creation. How many people out there have tons of talent or skill and are just doing OK ?
It is not luck alone either. Case in point: Lotto winners that end up broke, dead or something similar.

It is luck plus enough skill possessed by the person that encounters the lucky situation, that this person can take advantage of their luck. I mean, they have to have the right kind of skill. The paper's authors give some advice on how to make this work in your favor. I also want to define luck (as they didn't really state a definition). Let's define luck as the random distribution of favorable opportunities encountered among the population of humans on this planet. A favorable opportunity is some event that could lead to making more money.

Lets define talent or skill as 1) Understanding when they DO encounter the opportunity (because most people don't recognize an opportunity), and 2) how to capitalize on that opportunity. So talent includes having the right attitude to see the opportunity, as well as having the right skills.

So, if you are looking at everyone on this planet, 1) very few people have the right attitude and right skills. And 2)the opportunities happen at random amongst the population. Or, they tend to be more concentrated in certain geographic areas (areas with favorable business environments, areas with favorable laws, areas with natural resources, etc.) When you multiply the probabilities of both together, you end up with a very small number of people who make the wealth.

So you might be asking, how could I make these conclusions work in my favor? Well, first, you need to get the skills (and attitude), which is what MJ has been trying to teach us, and is basically everything on the survey in the OP, then you must increase the number of encounters you have with opportunities. So you won't increase your luck on any single encounter, but if you increase the number of encounters, you will become more lucky as time goes on.

If you want a more concrete analogy, look at poker. Poker players must have a minimum level of skill to take advantage of the cards when the cards are dealt to them favorably. Since Poker is a zero sum game, the minimum level of skill is determined by their opponents skill level. Same thing is true with trading.

If you would rather play a game that is not zero sum, then go into business. I know a successful self made millionaire (now retired) who once told me that that he started many different businesses before finding a business idea/model that really took off. Most either failed or just broke even or possibly did a little better than breakeven. He played the probabilities. He increased the number of encounters with opportunities that could lead to something.

Book publishers (at least in their old business model) did this, as did record labels (old model). They made all the money because they bet on multiple artists or authors. Meanwhile, authors and artists only got one shot at it, so most of them failed.

A more modern example is Venture Capitalists and Angels. They make many bets, spread among many startups. Most fail. We only hear about the wild successes (suvivorship bias).

So, in my interpretation, nothing in the paper I posted contradicts the OP. I'm just saying that luck is also involved. Its not enough to just look at the survey results. That's all skill/talent stuff. To be sure, we definitely need the items the wealthy respondents focus on in the survey, but we also need to increase the number of encounters with opportunities.
 
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karakoram

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Here's an interesting exercise for everyone reading this: Post ideas about how you could increase the number of opportunities we can encounter, that could lead to more wealth.
 

ApparentHorizon

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I think your first sentence is correct. I don't think your last one is completely correct (partially, yes). I think I understand what you are getting at. The prima facie conclusion is that "its all about luck, so why bother trying/struggling?". I don't think that is the message from this papers' authors.

I will tell you my interpretation if you are interested. Anyone else reading this, I am inviting you to poke holes in my logic. I prefer to have my ideas vetted with constructive criticism and to uncover any cognitive dissonance I am not aware of.

What the paper is saying is that skill alone is not enough to attribute to large amounts of wealth creation. How many people out there have tons of talent or skill and are just doing OK ?
It is not luck alone either. Case in point: Lotto winners that end up broke, dead or something similar.

It is luck plus enough skill possessed by the person that encounters the lucky situation, that this person can take advantage of their luck. I mean, they have to have the right kind of skill. The paper's authors give some advice on how to make this work in your favor. I also want to define luck (as they didn't really state a definition). Let's define luck as the random distribution of favorable opportunities encountered among the population of humans on this planet. A favorable opportunity is some event that could lead to making more money.

Lets define talent or skill as 1) Understanding when they DO encounter the opportunity (because most people don't recognize an opportunity), and 2) how to capitalize on that opportunity. So talent includes having the right attitude to see the opportunity, as well as having the right skills.

So, if you are looking at everyone on this planet, 1) very few people have the right attitude and right skills. And 2)the opportunities happen at random amongst the population. Or, they tend to be more concentrated in certain geographic areas (areas with favorable business environments, areas with favorable laws, areas with natural resources, etc.) When you multiply the probabilities of both together, you end up with a very small number of people who make the wealth.

So you might be asking, how could I make these conclusions work in my favor? Well, first, you need to get the skills (and attitude), which is what MJ has been trying to teach us, and is basically everything on the survey in the OP, then you must increase the number of encounters you have with opportunities. So you won't increase your luck on any single encounter, but if you increase the number of encounters, you will become more lucky as time goes on.

If you want a more concrete analogy, look at poker. Poker players must have a minimum level of skill to take advantage of the cards when the cards are dealt to them favorably. Since Poker is a zero sum game, the minimum level of skill is determined by their opponents skill level. Same thing is true with trading.

If you would rather play a game that is not zero sum, then go into business. I know a successful self made millionaire (now retired) who once told me that that he started many different businesses before finding a business idea/model that really took off. Most either failed or just broke even or possibly did a little better than breakeven. He played the probabilities. He increased the number of encounters with opportunities that could lead to something.

Book publishers (at least in their old business model) did this, as did record labels (old model). They made all the money because they bet on multiple artists or authors. Meanwhile, authors and artists only got one shot at it, so most of them failed.

A more modern example is Venture Capitalists and Angels. They make many bets, spread among many startups. Most fail. We only hear about the wild successes (suvivorship bias).

So, in my interpretation, nothing in the paper I posted contradicts the OP. I'm just saying that luck is also involved. Its not enough to just look at the survey results. That's all skill/talent stuff. To be sure, we definitely need the items the wealthy respondents focus on in the survey, but we also need to increase the number of encounters with opportunities.
If I'm reading this correctly, it looks like the author does define both talent and luck.

We consider N individuals, with talent Ti (intelligence, skills, ability, etc.)

Ex: You're good at sports. You can easily read people. You learned sales. etc.

Then the luck:

that one’s position in an alphabetically sorted list may be important in determining access to over-subscribed public services [21]; that middle name initials enhance evaluations of intellectual performance [22]; that people with easy-to-pronounce names are judged more positively than those with difficult-to-pronounce names [23]; that individuals with noble-sounding surnames are found to work more often as managers than as employees [24]; that females with masculine monikers are more successful in legal careers [25]; that roughly half of the variance in incomes across persons worldwide is explained only by their country of residence and by the income distribution within that country [26]; that the probability of becoming a CEO is strongly influenced by your name or by your month of birth [27, 28, 29]; that the innovative ideas are the results of a random walk in our brain network [30];

A lot of these you have control over. You can always change your name.

So as you said, you can create your own luck. And quite easily I might add.

Over the past year I've adopted 2 mannerisms which lead to fantastic results. Most of which you could attribute to "luck." Lucky a client introduced me to one of their friends, that introduced me to their network and additional pool of clients.

(By the way, those 2 mannerisms, was (1) just talking to people, whether or not they're qualified to be my client. Shout out to @Andy Black for the inspiration. And (2) giving value without expecting something in return, as Gary Vee preaches)

Then there's one of my family members. They were "destined for success." Great grades, scholarships, incredibly "talented" at soccer. The way he was headed, could have had the opportunity to play MLS. Unfortunately, he didn't put himself in scenarios to succeed, and relied on the talent to move forward. So it never materialized.
 

natew

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"Corley conducted a survey by interviewing 233 wealthy people who make $160,000 or more in annual income and hold at least $3.2 million in net liquid assets (177 of whom were self-made, coming from poverty or the middle class) and 128 poor people who make less than $35,000 per year and have less than $5,000 in assets. Over five years, Corley posed 144 questions in 20 categories to each person and saw distinct patterns emerge.”

There are some very distinct differences that we see emerge, many having to do with self discipline. The rich are extremely disciplined. They would rather sacrifice today for a better tomorrow. The prefer $7 tomorrow to $5 right now.

Some of his specific findings: the wealthy read constantly, exercise regularly, eat a healthy diet, hang out with other successful people, pursue their own goals, get up early, have multiple sources of income, are positive, and have great etiquette (thank-you notes, birthday cards, calls on special occasions, etc.)

His full findings:



































You can read the rest of his work on http://richhabits.net/
This study is very telling. A lot really does come down to one’s daily routine, personal habits and mindset. Those factors are absolutely critical. Let’s all work to be the best we can be in those areas.

In terms of thinking, it’s amazing that many politicians make careers out of bloviating the beliefs that the overwhelming majority of the poor expressed.
 

Xeon

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Essentially using this forum and finding like minded individuals IS like having a mentor of sorts. Compare this to never knowing anyone ever.
THIS. Tbh, without this forum, I would never even know some things are actually possible, and would still be subscribing to the idea of "people get rich through luck and lies". Would never even have survived the desert of desertion. This place is like a source of power that holds everything together. It's like a classroom here where you learn new things daily.
 

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Excellent work, ChrisV

I drew my own conclusions from the data. Very interesting indeed. I looked into Tom Corley's website and found the following entry I want to share with folks here on the forum:
http://richhabits.net/what-it-means-to-be-an-entrepreneur/

The essence of entrepreneurship according to Corley boils down to the following list. Well, it's more the enemies of entrepreneurship. If one avoids these the road seems less bumpy:

If you believe you have what it takes to be an entrepreneur, you need to become aware of the many things that can derail entrepreneurship. These are the enemies of entrepreneurship:
  • Fear & Doubt That Causes Inaction
  • Procrastination
  • Complacency
  • Victim Mindset
  • Feeling Hopeless
  • Desire for Safety & Security
  • Perfectionism
  • Quitting on Yourself
  • Lack of Persistence
  • Lack of Consistency
  • Poor Processes or No Processes
  • Bad Habits
  • Negative Thinking
  • Limiting Beliefs
  • Under-Capitalization
  • Poor Health
There are also structural enemies of entrepreneurship:
  • Heavy Government Regulations
  • Socialist or Communist Economic Systems
  • Dictatorial Government Leaders
  • Crony Capitalism
These structural enemies make is difficult, if not impossible, to succeed as an entrepreneur. Countries who encourage entrepreneurship, embrace capitalism. They also have low business taxes, tolerable regulations, and minimal government interference with businesses.

I for my part had to overcome a combination of two of these enemies: Inactivity due to doubt and perfectionism. If I think of it more deeply it becomes clear that my perfectionism was a consequence of my self-doubt. Where did that come from? My upbringing that didn't prepare me for the scripted world I sought at some time (more on this in a separate thread). How I overcame this? For years I read everything from spiritual to scientific literature. I gave pretty much every philosophy a try (I hear your scream MJ), looked into religions, beliefs, philosophies, theories and eventually realized that it is all about me. Not rocket science, but I guess the "normal" way to one's self.

I cut it short here. Again, thanks for sharing.
 

Ray Goslin

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I read the abstract and the conclusion, and it looks to me that they're concluding that a significant portion of one's success is luck/randomness. Am I reading it correctly? If so, I think it actually goes against the findings of the stats in the OP.

View attachment 20802

Am I misinterpreting it?
"I am a great believer in Luck. The harder I work, the more of it I seem to have">Coleman Cox.

In 1923 the Colorado School of Mines Magazine picked up the exact saying and credited the words to Cox [CMCC]:
 

c4n

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If y'alls' minds are not already blown, here's a little something that will blow it. I think this just corroborates the RichHabits.net site findings.
What got my attention was section 3 from the paper, Effective strategies to counterbalance luck, that emphasizes placing yourself in a stimulating environment, rich of opportunities.

While the above study is purely statistics modeling just two factors (talent and luck), I believe it does have merit. To improve your odds for success:
  1. improve your "talent" (skills, mindset, learn from experience...)

  2. place yourself in a stimulating environment, rich of opportunities (change physical location, network with like-minded individuals, explore new industry sectors...)

  3. be determined, consistent and don't give up (counterbalance being often penalized by unlucky events)
 

TonyStark

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What a waste of time - collecting this survey.
 

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TonyStark

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Aspiring to be a rock star is probably so much better. Certainly easier. Don't even have to have any talent these days - just scream. I may be onto something here... Tuck that shirt in.
At least I’m not afraid to show a real picture of myself?

Why take it personally?

But, I’ll probably have more time to accomplish both goals, in the time you have left, old man.

Just FYI, millions of people are able to do what they love, as well as have successful careers.

My frustrations from these surveys is that people spend so much time trying to be like rich people, instead of leading rich lives themselves.

But there, I changed my profile picture so you won't be too distracted, and we can get back on topic here.
 
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Real Deal Denver

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You youngsters are gullible. I'm not 64, as my profile says. But I am a lot older than you.

Haven't you ever made a profile that portrays you as a 25 year old blonde bombshell, just to see how the young bucks make a fool of themselves? You should try it. Trolling.

Thanks for changing your pic. I'm not so easily distracted now. LOL.

I have a friend in Austin. South of town - everyone in his hood has an airplane hanger attached to their homes, like most people have a garage. I don't know his address as he picks me up at the airport, so I never drive there. They have wild miniature deer there too - you might know the place - can't be too many like that around. It's nice to have friends that have planes - we can go anywhere, whenever we want to. Set some goals and work hard, and you too might someday be able to have a plane parked next to your beamer. Who knows?

Tuck that shirt in.
 
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TonyStark

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You youngsters are gullible. I'm not 64, as my profile says. But I am a lot older than you.

Haven't you ever made a profile that portrays you as a 25 year old blonde bombshell, just to see how the young bucks make a fool of themselves? You should try it. Trolling.

Thanks for changing your pic. I'm not so easily distracted now. LOL.

I have a friend in Austin. South of town - everyone in his hood has an airplane hanger attached to their homes, like most people have a garage. I don't know his address as he picks me up at the airport, so I never drive there. They have wild miniature deer there too - you might know the place - can't be too many like that around. It's nice to have friends that have planes - we can go anywhere, whenever we want to. Set some goals and work hard, and you too might someday be able to have a plane parked next to your beamer. Who knows?

Tuck that shirt in.
I hear a lot about your friend but not you.

Anyways, quit derailing this thread man!
 
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rollerskates

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Fascinating, but not surprising. Regardless of the amount of money one makes, everyone would have a far better life if they had better habits. Almost everything on the list isn't a matter of having wealth or not. Even if you work a sucky job, there's no reason you have to go home and sit in front of the TV with Cheetos and a 6 pack. Why not instead go home and exercise 30 minutes and then cook something healthy while sipping on a nice (moderately priced) wine and reading while you eat?

The other thing about this that is interesting is that you just know the people in the poor category formed their opinions that will keep them poor from watching TV. It's a never ending loop. They believe they will stay poor, and then they watch TV, which only tells them they will be poor because x, y, and z.
 

ZF Lee

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Why not instead go home and exercise 30 minutes and then cook something healthy while sipping on a nice (moderately priced) wine and reading while you eat?
Where I am, in university, it seems that cooking has become somewhat of a myth....

I blame parents for not teaching their kids how to cook (boil soup, rice, pasta, make a sandwich, cut up fruits and vege). And wash the damn dishes, not stack the F*cker in the sink for the roaches to infest on!
 

garyfritz

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FWIW I never learned a thing about cooking as a kid. In university I lived in dorms where somebody else cooked for me.

Then I graduated and got out on my own, and I couldn't afford to eat out all the time. So I learned to cook out of necessity, and I got fairly good at it. It's a great way to impress women. :smuggy:
 

Bulgano

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What a waste of time - collecting this survey.
Just FYI, millions of people are able to do what they love, as well as have successful careers.

My frustrations from these surveys is that people spend so much time trying to be like rich people, instead of leading rich lives themselves.
These messages you posted are a direct contradiction of each other. First you say the person who did the survey is “wasting their time”, and then proceed to say; ‘millions of people are able to do what they love, as well as have successful careers.’

Did you perhaps consider the person who made the survey is ‘doing what they love’, or, God forbid they just wanted to provide the world with free knowledge.

No offence, but if you are in a mindset where you are complaining (or saying people are wasting their time), by providing you with FREE and insightful information, then you aren't going to get far.
 

Owlman

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This, to me makes no sense. Let me be the first to tell you that this guy didn't interview rich people. Everybody he interviewed was average.

Quote me anywere
 

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This, to me makes no sense. Let me be the first to tell you that this guy didn't interview rich people. Everybody he interviewed was average.

Quote me anywere
Care to elaborate?
 

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Merging Left

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that one’s position in an alphabetically sorted list may be important in determining access to over-subscribed public services [21]; that middle name initials enhance evaluations of intellectual performance [22]; that people with easy-to-pronounce names are judged more positively than those with difficult-to-pronounce names [23]; that individuals with noble-sounding surnames are found to work more often as managers than as employees [24]; that females with masculine monikers are more successful in legal careers [25]; that roughly half of the variance in incomes across persons worldwide is explained only by their country of residence and by the income distribution within that country [26]; that the probability of becoming a CEO is strongly influenced by your name or by your month of birth [27, 28, 29]; that the innovative ideas are the results of a random walk in our brain network [30];

A lot of these you have control over. You can always change your name.
I need to actually spend some time and read through the study. Were they able to show causality with the names? Because I might consider a name change if so...
 

ApparentHorizon

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I need to actually spend some time and read through the study. Were they able to show causality with the names? Because I might consider a name change if so...
Not verbatim in the study itself, but check the references if you're seriously considering it.

You can easily try it out online, as well.

3 forums and/or social networks:

1. Some obscure name that's hard to pronounce: "PhthiriaRelativitae"
2. Something that's not too difficult to read, like you have now.
3. A super common/known name: "JohnWayne"

Then make 3 different types of posts on each:

1. Something infuriating/offensive
2. Something neutral, aka normal convo
3. Something of extreme value

Watch how people react. The results won't surprise you!

You can also use a nickname or shortened version of your real name, if you want it to be more Americanized. (Or tailored to whatever country you're selling in.)

Not sure what part of the world you're in, but name changes are a PITA. Bank accounts, utilities, legal docs, etc. Some places you have to go before a judge and make your case.

If you're in the US and you have to do this with a foreign name, all you have to say is you want to integrate better into society.
 

MJ DeMarco

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Really irks me when people talk about LUCK but they never talk about PROBABILITY. They're conjoined twins.
 

MakeItHappen

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Really irks me when people talk about LUCK but they never talk about PROBABILITY. They're conjoined twins.
Yup, also you can't compare entrepreneurship which gives you a lot of chances to hit it big with a 40 year long career...
Like Marc Cuban said in business you only have to be right one time and you are set for life so try again and again until the PROBABILITIES are in your favor.

One quote that I like very much:
“ If you have a 1% chance, try 100 times.” - Saygin Yalcin
 

Real Deal Denver

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Yup, also you can't compare entrepreneurship which gives you a lot of chances to hit it big with a 40 year long career...
Like Marc Cuban said in business you only have to be right one time and you are set for life so try again and again until the PROBABILITIES are in your favor.

One quote that I like very much:
“ If you have a 1% chance, try 100 times.” - Saygin Yalcin
GREAT quote. I'm a quote person. This one is going on the wall!

You might appreciate how I explain how odds don't faze me: I once faced odds of over five million to one, and I won. Once I did that, I realized I could do anything. The five million to one odds that I overcame was when I was a sperm. Today I know so much more and am so much stronger! Nothing can stop me now!
 
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MJ DeMarco

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“ If you have a 1% chance, try 100 times.” - Saygin Yalcin
Great quote.

And therein lies the essence of probability. The odds might be poor, but the more tickets you push into the game, the more likely you'll get lucky. All of these "rich habits" are simply more ways you can get more tickets into the game, hence, manipulating probability.
 

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