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Reddit r/WSB bankrupts Hedge Fund using Robinhood

Rabby

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Stopping the regular folks from trading this is a shit show, but also predictable. The funny thing is, this kind of movement doesn't even matter if you have an actual strategy for making money in the public markets. Buy an out of the money put option if you have to, or buy some shares for justice... then go back to trading normal options and stocks. Or better yet, trade on the volatility and make money every few minutes.

Out of all the news in this story, what really kills me is that hedge funds are actually losing significant money on their short positions. Is this 1992? No, it is not. Are they George Soros? No, they are not. That should be the test for whether or not you should take a short position with no insurance (and for all I know GS may have had insurance).

For example, Lemony Fresh Wealth Consulting, or whatever it was called, lost 30% of 12 billion on the positions they took. Seriously, f@#& anyone who calls themselves a financial manager and screws up that badly. I hope no teachers were planning to retire on that money. This is precisely why I will never trust money to a mutual fund, hedge fund, con artist, or MLM yoga pants seller. Who appoints these experts?

Shorting, and just holding the short position on a stock, without any options to hedge it, is like buying a mansion at the beginning of hurricane season with 120% financing, with your vital organs as additional collateral, and choosing not to insure it because the wind isn't blowing right now. But not only that! If the hurricane destroys the mansion, you might also owe someone infinite dollars because you had a contract to deliver a mansion of any arbitrary value based on arbitrary market rates to them at some later date. BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE! You also decide to taunt the market by bragging about the huge positions you've taken, which make you vulnerable. Good idea.

A professional fund manager? We need better professionals apparently. Once you figure out how options work, you should never be in the position this hedge fund is/was in.

Musical interlude.

Meanwhile, as people risk tens of thousands or more, each, buying or shorting this stock, or taking inscrutable options positions... others have controlled thousands of shares through (normal, simple) options. Our risk is limited, as long as we're long or understand how spreads actually work (and have a sophisticated enough brokerage apparently). Why are people jumping into markets before they understand them? I don't get it. This is the definition of dumb money... acting when you don't even know what the consequences to yourself will be. Having no idea about outcomes. And it seems to be everywhere. They write books on this stuff! We could just read the books!

Ahem. Anyway, the hedgies were dumb idiots. They are also amoral bastards for crying to Daddy about the mean kids who took their friends' money away when they threw that money in the street. Most of the people going nuts over these hyped stocks probably aren't any more sophisticated, and they have the disadvantage that Daddy doesn't care about them because they aren't part of a PAC. Robinhood is a limp noodle boiled in polluted tap water.

And in the morning, you will go back to your normal trading and investing activities, which have little or nothing to do with GME, AMC, etc. Because why? You don't need pump and dump schemes to make money in public markets! You just need a normal set of strategies, informed by your knowledge, experience, and objectives. Stick to the plan.
 
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socaldude

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Lol market makers got steamrolled. If you sell calls to retail traders you are technically short the stock. They have to buyback the stock to cover the position. Then strikes get wider and liquidity goes down.

But it looks like it’s time to pay the piper. They’re gonna pump these Reddit stocks overnight to give the fake impression that everything is still good and get in at a better price to offload at the cash session.

Not gonna end well LOL. At the end the house always wins. :rofl:
 

Kak

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Sure they do. They shorted Tesla for years
That didn't work for them.

And... Tesla, while innovative, is not some well oiled machine. It is bitcoin, with a car and a guy named Elon, the way its valued.
 

BizyDad

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Sure they do. They shorted Tesla for years
First off, how many hedge funds got rich shorting Tesla?

Secondly, even if you found an exception didn't mean the rule isn't true. Name five more well run companies that led to hedge funds getting rich by shorting them.

Lastly, while I am a fan of Musk's Tesla effort in shaking up an industry, I think it is fair to question if at various points Tesla was truly "well run". I don't feel qualified to have that discussion, but I think to look at the stock price now and say it had always been a well run company may be revisionist history.
 
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James Fake

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Guys...
So I found some stuff; and I need to do some deep analysis before sharing but I will say tread very carefully with the broad market here. The Meme stocks will be pumping tomorrow and things will get crazy and out of sight.

But some fundamentals on the foundation is not lining up correctly for me and I just wanted to give this heads up to you guys to watch over the next 10-20 trading days.. maybe begin pulling some profits here and there.

When I get done with the analysis; I'll share in the crypto thread.
 

csalvato

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Secondly, even if you found an exception didn't mean the rule isn't true. Name five more well run companies that led to hedge funds getting rich by shorting them.
You can make a lot of money shorting any stock, just like you can make a lot of money longing the stock.

It's not even hard if you can manipulate the markets by feeding CNBC whatever narrative you need to push to drive a stock down.

Most hedge funds openly perform market manipulation in this way, to make money on whatever security they think is prone to move based on the news, whether that's Apple, Coca Cola, Tesla or Gamestop.

That didn't work for them.

And... Tesla, while innovative, is not some well oiled machine. It is bitcoin, with a car and a guy named Elon, the way its valued.

Hedge funds almost always short innovative companies of all forms because they are easy targets, because innovation is hard and prone to fail.

Tesla is the most high profile, but not the worst of the lot by any means.

That doesn't mean they are badly run companies.

When you look under the hood of innovative companies that hedge funds have shorted (including Tesla, Facebook, Snapchat, the list goes on), they aren't poorly run, just at an earlier phase of their development.

Hedge fund shorting (especially naked shorting) is a massive, unnecessary barrier to the success of innovative companies, even if they are very well run.

This is one of many reasons why companies that are still innovating are loath to go public. Sure, it's a big payday, but you introduce massive barriers to your own innovation and are often signing your own death warrant.

And, of course it worked for them. I know you're not naive. The money hedge funds make isn't based on aren't opening short positions and holding for infinity. They open the short position, create a rumor, sell the news. It's done within hours or maybe days and the money is in the bank.
 
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csalvato

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Lastly, while I am a fan of Musk's Tesla effort in shaking up an industry, I think it is fair to question if at various points Tesla was truly "well run". I don't feel qualified to have that discussion, but I think to look at the stock price now and say it had always been a well run company may be revisionist history.

I encourage you to read this book if you want an insight into the operations of Tesla through the years:

Amazon.com: Insane Mode: How Elon Musk's Tesla Sparked an Electric Revolution to End the Age of Oil eBook: McKenzie, Hamish: Kindle Store

It's far from poorly run, despite what the news media tells you (because they are being funded by the hedge funds shorting Tesla).

Tesla definitely has areas that need improvement, but for what they are doing in such a capital intensive industry, they are F*cking crushing it, to put it mildly.

NB: I believe Tesla is currently overbought, but that doesn't mean that Tesla is a poorly run company by and large.
 
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redshift

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Here's a good example of 'dumb money' lol:


" Sullivan said he asked around the office about the trading frenzy that sent the company's stock skyrocketing. “I was hoping to be able to say it was more to do with our world-class nickel projects,” Sullivan told Australian media.

Not quite. "
 

maverick

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lludwig

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They are also scrambling for cash, reaching out to many banks for liquidity.

They are also having "trouble" liquidating crypto positions....which to mean indicates they are only holding a fractional amount and can't cover all the withdrawals.
This event could cause a contagion event. Some should be careful what they wish for :)
 
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lludwig

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First off, how many hedge funds got rich shorting Tesla?

Secondly, even if you found an exception didn't mean the rule isn't true. Name five more well run companies that led to hedge funds getting rich by shorting them.

Lastly, while I am a fan of Musk's Tesla effort in shaking up an industry, I think it is fair to question if at various points Tesla was truly "well run". I don't feel qualified to have that discussion, but I think to look at the stock price now and say it had always been a well run company may be revisionist history.
When you are making cars in temporary tents and bumpers just fall off in the rain, you aren't a well-oiled company.

The fit and finish on some of the earlier models made 80's GM cars look like they are well built. Yes, they have improved many things over the years but to think they are a well-run company isn't the true narrative.

They've escaped BK by the skin of their teeth 3 times.

None of this has anything to do with the stock price and hedge funds shorting the firm.

I personally believe TSLA has survived because of easy monetary policy for the past 10 years and the government's love for 'green' tech. Biden being pres has sealed this deal.

Sometimes the era your company is built is what matters more than anything else.
 
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maverick

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As an FYI.. michael burry is shorting tesla now.
 
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G

Guest-5ty5s4

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Never in a million years would I meet someone else on this forum to quote such a small phase that happened during Runescape almost 10 years ago.

Yup, I’m a nerd ;)

haha glad you enjoyed the reference man.

I was probably 13-14 when that was happening. That game was my escape to do “entrepreneurial” stuff as a kid. I was always trying to trade my way to more gp. It was fun, but looking back, I wish I spent less time on video games and more time hanging out with people in person.
 

ZF Lee

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Now this article shows up at my local i3investor forum:

Specifically, it names heavily-shorted counters in my country like Top Glove.
Unlike GME, TOPGLOV is actually a solid company, having registered billions in profit in the last quarterly report and consecutive quarters in the green.

One of the top rubber glove companies in the country and the world.

Had a fantastic performance during COVID due to soaring gloves demand, but recently has been on a downtrend on the chart:
View attachment 36536

I entered it around RM6+ and topped up when regulated short-selling opened (RSS) cut it down to RM5.48 support...and then now it sits around RM6.21, which means the short-sellers ain't exactly winning.

This time though, the 'enemy' at TOPGLOV is JP Morgan.
They set a TOPGLOV target price as low as RM3.50...which seemed outlandish:

I can understand cyclical plays (ie investors switching from one industry to another winning one like semiconductors), but this is COVID and healthcare we are talking about.
It would take a much longer time-frame for the price to get cut down that low.

Already, some folks on my local forum were debunking the JP Morgan report:


Turns out, JP has some kind of agenda in promoting the crappy TOPGLOV price, JP has TOPGLOV as its second-highest position in its Malaysian holdings (for unit trust, at least...not too far off from an index)...so maybe it wants to go shopping at a lower price?
View attachment 36535
And the report came around before Malaysia opened up short-selling again.
So far we are suffering more foreign capital outflows due to the COVID and political crap, but I won't deny this looks suspicious...

So I definitely get the conspiracy vibe from the GME team at r/WSB.
Still, other non-Malaysian glove counters like Singapore's Riverstone and China's Intco have been moving nicely up, so maybe TOPGLOV is just being a laggard, or otherwise...
View attachment 36537
View attachment 36538

Still, I'm seeing talk of staging another short-squeeze on the local stock forum.
The folks have heard about the GME short-squeeze, but I just wonder if they have the discipline and the balls to pump the stock that crazy.

If that happens tomorrow, I shall laugh...

EDIT: They've even made some hashtags...#CRASHRSS

EDIT 2: Good Lord, now they've made a Malaysian-inspired of r/WSB:
UPDATE over on my side of the globe....

Remember I found out that the folks in my country are staging another 'GME' at our heaviest-shorted stocks in the Bursa, namely gloves?

Usually on Fridays, we have sellouts on most stocks as analysts want to take profit (probably for the weekend pig-out)

Plus the Asian markets went down the day before due to COVID-fears.
So I expected to see some red, which did happen.

As for gloves, all the counters slammed up:

Top Glove did open high and flew up to RM7.12, but then I saw some fierce selling on the daily candlestick to force it back down around RM6+ before it closed at RM6.74

Hartalega also closed up 66 sen or 5.41% at RM12.86. Had a peak of RM13.42.

Supermax went up 3.66% to close at RM6.80

However, perhaps the anti-shortists missed the mark...the most shorted stock of today was actually Public Bank, which had just come out of a stock-split.

But I hold positions in both stocks long before GME happened, and the current cyclical play was tech and semiconductors in Bursa...so I just watched the Telegram and the newly-formed r/bursabets subreddit blow up with activity...

Later I wrote a post on to recommend some free/affordable books and courses for newbies to bursabets.
Hopefully, some of them can learn a bit before they dump their life savings into a mania.

But as much as I want this to be a more positive catalyst, I just felt really sad when I saw so many people post or ask things like:

"What broker to choose?"
"What is shorting?"
"How to get Top Glove shares?"

Which reminded me how little financial education folks can have...and I used to be one of them long ago.
 
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Xeon

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UPDATE over on my side of the globe....

Remember I found out that the folks in my country are staging another 'GME' at our heaviest-shorted stocks in the Bursa, namely gloves?

Usually on Fridays, we have sellouts on most stocks as analysts want to take profit (probably for the weekend pig-out)

Plus the Asian markets went down the day before due to COVID-fears.
So I expected to see some red, which did happen.

As for gloves, all the counters slammed up:

Top Glove did open high and flew up to RM7.12, but then I saw some fierce selling on the daily candlestick to force it back down around RM6+ before it closed at RM6.74

Hartalega also closed up 66 sen or 5.41% at RM12.86. Had a peak of RM13.42.

Supermax went up 3.66% to close at RM6.80

However, perhaps the anti-shortists missed the mark...the most shorted stock of today was actually Public Bank, which had just come out of a stock-split.

But I hold positions in both stocks long before GME happened, and the current cyclical play was tech and semiconductors in Bursa...so I just watched the Telegram and the newly-formed r/bursabets subreddit blow up with activity...

Later I wrote a post on to recommend some free/affordable books and courses for newbies to bursabets.
Hopefully, some of them can learn a bit before they dump their life savings into a mania.

But as much as I want this to be a more positive catalyst, I just felt really sad when I saw so many people post or ask things like:

"What broker to choose?"
"What is shorting?"
"How to get Top Glove shares?"

Which reminded me how little financial education folks can have...and I used to be one of them long ago.

I don't care! I just want to see hedge fund fat cats and investment bankers collapse and become homeless on the streets! The era of Wall Street and its counterparts all across the globe must be ghosts of the past!
 

BizyDad

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I encourage you to read this book if you want an insight into the operations of Tesla through the years:

Amazon.com: Insane Mode: How Elon Musk's Tesla Sparked an Electric Revolution to End the Age of Oil eBook: McKenzie, Hamish: Kindle Store

It's far from poorly run, despite what the news media tells you (because they are being funded by the hedge funds shorting Tesla).

Tesla definitely has areas that need improvement, but for what they are doing in such a capital intensive industry, they are f*ck

You make a lot of good points. I've been a casual follower of Tesla for years, and while I appreciate the spirit of a book recommendation for education, I have long reading list I'm not getting to already.

That said, this book sounds like the reverse of your media complaint. It sounds like an over-glorification of the Musk mystique. I don't know if that's true, but the title doesn't sound unbiased. There's a case to be made for how well run it is, and has been over the years, sure.

But as a casual fan I heard Musk brag about selling s3x, I've read allegations of discrimination at Tesla, lawsuits, merging with a failing Solar City, and for years I heard him promise to ship X cars by X date and fail to deliver.

That's not hedge fund boogeymen planting stories. Sure, a lot of that has happened too, but let's not be so dismissive. There were and are real issues at Tesla.

Tesla's made improvements, and sure there are more improvements that need to be made. It's kind of this general state of business.

But how well run is the business if it can't hit its own stated goals? Repeatedly?

Even recently there was that whole duct tape/wood fiasco. Clever trick. Supply chain issues, I'm sure. But is that well run? You could say Yes or No and be right.

Snapchat definitely isn't a well run business. Don't even want to discuss it.

I would probably side with people who feel Facebook is a well run business, but I would understand the argument that they aren't either.

They're an interesting case, because they ceased being an innovator way before they ever went public. They're one of the biggest stiflers of innovation in their space, copying the best ideas of their competitors so that companies like Foursquare are now irrelevant. And the companies they couldn't copy good ideas from and still posed a threat, they purchased.

Which is what smart businesses do. I'm not faulting them for this. But I find it funny that you called them an innovator.

And none of these companies were smashed into oblivion by shorts either, which was the spirit of the original comment.

Anyways, I don't want to belabor the point. I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm saying a reasonable person might look at the same facts and come to a different conclusion.

Let's get back to the conversation about gamestonks.
 

ItsAJackal

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Here's a good example of 'dumb money' lol:


" Sullivan said he asked around the office about the trading frenzy that sent the company's stock skyrocketing. “I was hoping to be able to say it was more to do with our world-class nickel projects,” Sullivan told Australian media.

Not quite. "

Reminds me of when the wrong ZOOM stock took off early last year because people thought they were investing in the video meeting software but it was actually some old Chinese company that dealt with wireless communication products.
 
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csalvato

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Anyways, I don't want to belabor the point. I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm saying a reasonable person might look at the same facts and come to a different conclusion.

I don't really want to belabor Tesla, as this is a tangent. In short, I'm very familiar with Tesla, and not really concerned with whether or not people come to the same conclusions as me about the company.

I was just pointing out that a major play by hedge funds is to make big moves on shorts, particularly when they can control the media narrative.

If anyone thinks this is not the case, I'd say they are naive.

Tesla is an example of this if you do the research on trading activity and the company's history, but if you don't want to, that's fine.

It doesn't remove the point that shorting is a major strategy that is mostly profitable through manipulating the narrative – a core competency of any successful hedge fund.

Regarding Tesla: as I mentioned in another post, I believe they are very overbought. I'm long on adoption of Tesla products, but short on the company's current valuation.
 
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Kak

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@csalvato I can see what you are saying about Tesla. I do agree with you that the hedge funds repeatedly shorted them... and maybe they thought they would do well with it... but they almost certainly regret it.

What I am saying is regardless of how short term the horizons were on those trades, a stock that did this... View attachment 36558 ...was not a good short position.

No one repeatedly catches a falling knife, over and over, without getting cut. And a short position in TSLA has always been a falling knife.
 

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csalvato

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@csalvato I can see what you are saying about Tesla. I do agree with you that the hedge funds repeatedly shorted them... and maybe they thought they would do well with it... but they almost certainly regret it.

What I am saying is regardless of how short term the horizons were on those trades, a stock that does this, was probably not a good short position.

No one repeatedly catches a falling knife over and over without getting cut. And a short position in TSLA has always been a falling knife.

View attachment 36557
I'm not talking about this year. I'm talking about from 2009 to late 2019 when they were shorted most aggressively and the narrative was around how they were actually hurting the environment, etc.

And yet, still, you're not accurate. A lot of funds, industry INSIDERS and investors are still shorting Tesla because they feel its overvalued.

On this run up, their positions are being liquidated, but to say no one is shorting tesla (particularly hedge funds) is not accurate.

I've read several twitter threads through 2020 from hedge funds and individual investors making the case for their shorts on Tesla. These threads are likely not even hard to find.

Sidenote: I didn't realize this was a controversial topic...the fact that hedge funds short pretty much any stock where they control the narrative isn't really news to anyone, is it? I'm surprised people are denying the activity of shorts on well run companies.
 
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BizyDad

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the fact that hedge funds short pretty much any stock where they control the narrative isn't really news to anyone, is it? I'm surprised people are denying the activity of shorts on well run companies.
Taken out of context, you could interpret this as my point. But my point was this normal behaviour isn't the "most likely" reason for people losing jobs and pensions. That was an exaggeration. Perhaps so was my claim that they don't get rich shorting well run companies, but I believe they make way more shorting the poorly run companies as opposed to the well run ones. One reason being the media narrative is easier to portray in those poorly-run cases.

I mean, no one thinks Gamestop is a well run company. They're another brick and mortar retailer who waited too long to leverage the internet. The argument in this thread seems to be anti-Wall St and anti-big tech, and save the jobs (and pensions? really?) of the little guy at Gamestop.

I find this interesting considering when those same little guys at Gamestop try and band together with others to demand a $15 wage, those same little guy defenders decry socialism and are very much pro free market. This thread is fascinating.
 

Kak

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but to say no one is shorting tesla (particularly hedge funds) is not accurate.
I didn't say that bro.

Sidenote: I didn't realize this was a controversial topic...the fact that hedge funds short pretty much any stock where they control the narrative isn't really news to anyone, is it? I'm surprised people are denying the activity of shorts on well run companies.

It's not to me. I don't really give a damn.

You said they made a bunch of money shorting Tesla, I said they probably didn't. Might they still? Sure. Could they have made money? Sure, but if they did it repeatedly, the chances got less and less likely.
 

lludwig

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I mean, no one thinks Gamestop is a well run company. They're another brick and mortar retailer who waited too long to leverage the internet. The argument in this thread seems to be anti-Wall St and anti-big tech, and save the jobs (and pensions? really?) of the little guy at Gamestop.

Yes IMHO a big part of this movement isn't to make money but to stick it to Wall Street. Odd but also fascinating. Which ironically may only hurt themselves in the long run.
 
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MJ DeMarco

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GME options have implied volatility of 500-800% :jawdrop: which means option buying isn't a feasible option. Those not familiar with IV, this means they are terribly expensive. This is like having a double wide trailer for sale for $35,000 and then next week, it is selling for $3,500,000 ... all because there might be a gold mine underneath it.

I can't remember any such IV pricing in options, perhaps in some hot bio-tech stock with clinical trial news, but then again, I tend to ignore the "hot" stocks.

Just some perspective, TSLA, which is considered a highly volatile stock, has IV of 70% ... so we are looking at unprecedented IVs and hence, unprecedented pricing.

Normally when the IV is this high, option sellers (like me) come in and start selling because the premium is so rich, but seeing this is an anomaly with no historical pattern to backtest, the only play is not to play.

Or if you're feeling speculative, the only (safe) option play on this are spreads to invalidate the high implied volatilies ... I'd go with long put spreads or short call spreads, namely because Gamestop is a turd of a company.

Also of note...

The VIX is starting to reach levels which occurred during the big pandemic crash, except we are not crashing, just merely retreating...
 

csalvato

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ormally when the IV is this high, option sellers (like me) come in and start selling because the premium is so rich, but seeing this is an anomaly with no historical pattern to backtest, the only play is not to play.

Right, don't play this game.

But...see what other games will benefit from the ultimate, inevitable outcome we are going to face.

IMO, we will see more people get fed up with the existing financial system (especially as people try to move funds between institutions) and we will see an influx of new adopters into trading and holding crypto.

To me, this seems like a very logical outcome, and BTC + ETH seem like a very safe buy for the foreseeable.

Smaller coins that are legit projects that have traction, like XLM, also bubble up to the top of the list.
 
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lludwig

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To me, this seems like a very logical outcome, and BTC + ETH seem like a very safe buy for the foreseeable.

Until the government tries to regulate, tax, or outright ban it.

Ask the owners of gold in 1933 how that worked out for them?
 
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